Mentor Roles
 

I am a new engineering mentor (started in Sept) and would like some advice.

If the build team is totally getting off track what should be the mentors role? I've tried to influence them to get back on track with little success. I've worked in the high tech industry for 30 years and have seen many projects fail. I feel at this point the team is not going to get a robot built. Should I just let them fail and call it a learning experience? Is it my role to build the robot for them? I don't think this is correct.

Is a mentor part of the team? I was told by an angry\stressed student that mentors are not part of the team. My view is that we are all on the same team but have different roles to support. I think I am there to help\encourage\voice concerns if the project is slipping?

Re: Mentor Roles
 

This is an interesting scenario. Pardon my ignorance but is your team relatively new?

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Different teams have different approaches to the subject.

When I was a student, my high school's team preached the interaction between mentors and students. We were all considered equal members of the team, and each contributed as much to the overall product as they could. I found this to be extremely rewarding, where other students and I were presented with enough work and responsibility to challenge ourselves, but never felt restricted in what the team could accomplish through our inexperience.

On the team I mentor now, things are very different and a similar process doesn't work quite as well. There are a number of reasons why: number of mentors, team age, socionomic differences between the two cities, etc. What I've learned that if a student is adament on something, you can't/shouldn't stop them. Yes, they need help, but that help is going to be much more well recieved when they're willing to listen. Some just have to learn the hard way.

However, if they claim that mentors are not part of the team, they're absolutely wrong. Mentorship is one of the principles first is based around, what differs it from traditional STEM education. Engineers' time is valuable, and sometimes students need to be gently reminded that engineers (espeically those with lots of industry experience) giving them free time and effort is a great learning opportunity, and that they should be treated with the respect that they deserve.

There are teams that pride themselves on being a 100% student built effort. I personally think this is the wrong way to go. For your scenario specifically, I would suggest trying to get them to slow down for a meeting. Stop working on the robot for an hour and analyze where the project currently is, where you're trying to make it go, and plan a general schedule of how you're going to get there with the remaining time, offering your experience as a guide to estimating how long the various portions left (design, manufacturing, assembly, etc.) may take. This activity might help the students realize that they might be overestimating exactly how much there is left to do or how long there is left to do it.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I'm a student, and this is my first year really actively participating in a Build Season, but I've learned a lot over the past 4 weeks about what it's like to work as a team.

To answer the first question, I'm certain there are teams who fail and end up not showing up at the regionals. However, letting them fail, I believe, means making 6 weeks of hard work, effort, and money worthless. Instead, push them to work harder; provide them with tools and resources to build the robot, but do not design the robot for them (this just defeats the purpose of FIRST). For instance, you could have access to CNC machines, and have parts manufactured by that method, but rarely is the design for the parts done by the mentor alone.

As for the team member who believes that the mentor is not part of the team... Well, there was one quote from one of my mentors: "My job here is to ask questions". I agree: we are a student-run team, and I do believe the program was built for the newer generations when they have to take the lead. However, if we were struggling, my bet is that the mentors will assist us in the build process, because nothing will be accomplished if we are lost and there's no one other than the mentors to guide us.

Also keep in mind, you can take 30 lbs of replacement parts to the regional events, so I think this can be used to your advantage if something on the robot is not finished in time. Keep encouraging your students to keep going and not give up. If they're stuck, take charge. Ask what's going on, have a plan, do something to work around these issues.

Well, that's kind of all I have to say. Once again, this is coming from a high school student, but I do hope this helps, and I wish your team a successful build season.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

First off: please don't let them fail. As difficult and non-achieveable as things may seem at the moment, as I always say: nothing is worth giving up over. FIRST is all about not quitting and pushing yourself to keep on going, no matter what the circumstances.

And you, sir, are most certainly part of the team. I don't know what I'd do without the mentors on my team. They're always helpful, there if I need a question answered, taught me how to use tools, and are extremely patient and kind. I'm sure the student who said such a (in my opinion) mean thing didn't truly mean what he/she was saying. They were just living in the moment, that's all. But yes, you're definitely part of the team. (A team isn't a team without someone to lead and guide them.)

You shouldn't build the robot for them, because, like others have said, it pretty much defeats the purpose of FIRST. However! You can always give them a push and ask them what's wrong or why they're so off track. There's nothing wrong with giving them guidance; that's one of the things a mentor does. :)

All in all, please, don't let it get to you. I'm sure your team is just stressed and upset. They want to compete just as much as you do, I'm sure, but they need a little push in the right direction. I know, you've tried it before. But in this case, you're Thomas Edison, and they're light bulbs. You've just got to keep trying and trying until you get results. If they want to throw away 6 weeks of time, money, etc. then that's their choice and you can't change that.

But don't give up if there's still something you can do. FIRST / FRC is a wonderful experience, and really, even though I've never met you or your team, I want you guys to go to your Regionals - and who knows? Maybe even Worlds! - and compete. :)

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Suggest the right course once. If the students want to go down another path, then do your best to make it happen and make it work, even if it isn't the most optimal. Over time, they will realize that you have a quality viewpoint and will start listening more and more.

It sounds like the students on the team have a viewpoint that they own the team and their mentors are there as only a reference. That's fine - some teams run like that. Don't force the issue and end up disliked and ostracized: that has no long-term upside.

In other words, as mentors we're here to offer what the team members are willing to take. Mistakes are often the best teaching tools. Smile and simply enjoy the small successes.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

First, thanks for taking the time to be a mentor. As an engineer, it's a responsibility to mentor and train young engineers. The most important letter in FIRST is the I for inspire. Failure is not inspirational. There should be no doubt that you are a part of the team. You are the most important part of the team. FIRSTs goal is for you to transfer knowledge to the students. Things no classroom can teach. Not sit back passively and be a babysitter. That would miss the whole point of FIRST. I would suggest an "after hours" discussion with the other mentors and teachers then have one unified vision of what mentorship means to the team. Stick with it.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Depends upon why they are getting off track. One programming mentor believes in letting the kids fail. they learn a lot through their failure. However, he does show them the errors of their way in time to get a functioning robot.

I have been an RI, so I can tell the kids: That is not done properly; That will not pass inspection. Those things they have to fix. Just this week I surveyed the different areas: drive train, shooter, boulder handling, swiss army knife (various mechanisms for defeating defenses), etc. I then asked the Electrical Team what is their plan for wiring all the motors. They were not addressing how many motor controllers they needed (one for each motor), and that they had maxed out the number of high amp slots on the PDP.

We force the kids to prototype. If they can't prove it works in prototype, we don't let them build it.

If you can see the design will not work, try to help them visualize why it will not work. It is still their design, and the earlier they can fix the problem, the easier it is.

It is a big team, and I have no idea who is doing what (I am more on the programming side, so I do not see all the hardware). If they are not addressing issues - Every few meetings (we meet 4 times a week), I ask "how is X <climbing> coming along". If no one is working on it, then it is a warning to them to put some people on it.

I see a Mentor role is to guide. We do not build the robot for them, but we do keep them from going down dead ends that may keep them from a robot that can compete.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

hauki,
1st.... THANKYOU for volunteering to help. Many of these students don't appreciate the value of having a engineering mentor. Just ask the teams that don't have any engineering mentors and still compete.

This is a perspective from a 3yr old team. It has taken our mentors and students 3 yrs to mature to the point where they have mutual respect for each other. The students really want to learn and do, but they typically struggle with visualizing concepts and deadlines. Adult volunteer's tend to want to "ensure they don't fail", and when they see this, jump in a bit "too much". Refrain from doing this and help them visualize the problem.
Also understand what you as a professional engineer can conceptually understand may take a student 10times as long. Be patient. What would take a mentor 10 minutes to do, take a student much longer until they have gained that experience. They will not gain the experience by watching. Make sure they are hands on "engaging".

We help them realize challenges with their design, and prototyping is very helpful to do this. We have started using legos mindstorm legos this year for "mocks ups" instead of "drawing things". (It was a huge success. in 20 minutes THEY found 3 design problems)

We also have a weekly "mentor only" meeting on monday for an hour. We bring up all sorts of things at this mentor meeting. But the reason for this is to bring the mentors together to manage risk to our team goals, have common mentor goals, and ensure the kids are still having fun.

Hope this helps.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Every team has different ways to manage their team and most of them work. We believe on WildStang that we are all team members, we all share in failures and success. As lovelj stated above, to let the team fail is not inspiring. A team meeting to discuss progress might show some interesting results. I have seen teams where one student is driving the team and everyone goes along with that student. It is easy for a student to get lost in the forest. However a team discussion might bring everything back into focus and actually get the entire team moving in the direction needed. We meet as a team every night to discuss what we accomplished yesterday, what we need to do today and what tomorrow is likely to bring.
Getting a driving base is a huge accomplishment and it shows the entire team that they can work together to get something to move. Small victories add up over the weeks of the build.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

FIRST is not a robot-building or team-building exercise. It is a mentorship program. (emphasis mine)

Re: Mentor Roles
 

We try to let the kids lead, but sometimes that doesn't work. You wouldn't let the kids have power saw fights would you for instance. We have a lot of good seniors this year and only in a couple groups do the mentors have to keep everyone on track very often. In those groups however the mentors end up taking the role of a teacher showing the kids what they need to do, how to do it and enforcing the rules.

In other groups the seniors have been around long enough that they kinda run with it. 4 years ago I was holding their hands and doing more of the photoshop work than I wanted to. This year because they have the experience they just brought me finished brochures done in Photoshop. I was impressed to be honest.

I guess what I am saying is, let the kids have their way as long as they are working toward the goal, but it is your job (in my opinion anyway) to keep them grounded in reality and the timeline we have. Sounds like they are needing some guidance back on track.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I see a lot of people here talking about a student built vs mentor built robot. And it is understandable why many people have strong opinions on the matter on both sides. I for one believe that FIRST is a educational program made to inspire kids to explore STEM fields. Whether they find inspiration building a robot, or having someone else build it for them, does not matter, and will change on a team to team basis.

The feeling that i get from your post is that your team is primarily student ran. If that is the case, my two cents is it is important to step back, and let the students design and build the robot just as they always have been. Tell them your ideas for sure, but if they are adamant about going the other way, then the best thing you can do is to try and help them as best you can. Forcing the team to go in another direction will do nothing but cause unnecessary tension.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Something not mentioned yet in this thread is that because every team has a unique team culture, not every mentor will fit comfortably in every team. My former teams and my current team follow distinctly different season philosophies and that's ok.

If you feel like you have something to offer and you are not being listened to, talk to team leadership about how you feel. The worst thing you can do is not tell other people on the team how you feel. If they are not receptive to your feeling, this offseason might be the time to look for a new team that more closely fits you build philosophies.

There are dozens of teams in your state that could use your help. Don't feel pigeon-holed into one team.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Every team and every mentor has a different style of mentorship. Some teams have the mentors completely hands off and only there to assist and push forward a completely student driven approach. Some teams have the students hands off and the mentors build and "inspire".

More often though, is it a hybrid of the two extremes where the students have a seat at the table with the mentors in determining direction, strategy and design. An entirely student driven approach often lacks direction. Having a mentor there to make comments and help gently guide the discussion is very helpful. An entirely mentor driven approach usually lacks creativity and passionate involvement from the students. Personally, I use a persuasive method when I see someone going far down what I think is the wrong path. I first give them a chance to explain what it is they think they are trying to achieve. Many times this is enough. They either convince me that I was mistaken or, the act of enunciating their idea is enough for them to hear what their mistake was. If that does not work some strategic questioning usually convinces those who still dont see what is going wrong. The question that everyone should be asking all the time is: "how does what I am doing right now contribute to on field and off field strategy?"

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Sounds like a tough situation, although I've sort of been there in the earlier years. After a while at this, I've figured out that the reason that I keep coming back year after year is that I really enjoy the engineering process, and working with a team of students to design and build a robot in 6 weeks is about the most fun an engineer can have. And I let the students know that being part of the team, them letting me do stuff, is what keeps me coming back. I don't have any interest in sitting around watching other people do stuff.

As suggested, you all need to sit down and talk about your roles on the team, and the status of your engineering project (the robot). There are two weeks left, and a few teams have already demonstrated that you can build a robot in three days....but it takes a cooperative effort by everyone on the team. Let them know that you want the team to succeed, and you're concerned that if things keep going as they are, that won't happen.

Mentoring is a tough game.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

As many others have said, every team has a different culture. I have found that the best teams have a commonality, that their is a feeling of partnership in the process. My first question would be how many other mentors are there and what are their views of how things are going? If this is a school based team, talking to the teacher in charge (for some, the teachers are mentors, for some teams the teacher really acts more as a business manager and HR director but isn't as involved in the robot building, for some the teacher is the person they have to have around to have a team in the school) is also a good idea. Ultimately if you want to be successful as a team the team has to develop a good working culture in which people know and are willing to accept their roles. Some of our mentors do more and teach less, some teach more and do less. We try to let the students learn how to do everything we do, but we all pitch in when things need to get done.

I would not put too much stock in what one stressed out student says. Everyone involved is part of the team. I have been doing FRC since 2000 and with team 1014 since we started in 2003. I also coach track and cross country. That experience comes in handy a lot more than you might think. Building a good track team and building a good robotics team share a lot of similarities.

If you want more specific suggestions feel free to send me a PM.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I will just chime in to say that sometimes students and mentors have different pictures to look at.

For some students all that matters is the years in which they are students whatever happens before or after doesn't matter to them. For mentors, its about improving on past success and continually growing for many years to come. These pictures sometimes will not match or work well together.

I treat mentoring as though I'm a coach (I come from a sports background lol). As a coach I can lead students only as far as they are willing to be lead.

I will do everything I can to teach them to find their own flaws and I consistently ask them whether their approach is correct (regardless if its the "right" answer or the "wrong" answer) to stimulate their thought process and their ability to see their own mistakes.

BUT, there will ALWAYS be a point where tunnel vision takes over and they will choose a "wrong" direction. After that happens I no longer treat the option as "wrong" and will do everything in my power to make there choice succeed.

This way they see that I'm not trying to over power them but if their choice fails dispute our efforts to make it work, they will remember that there was other options available to them that maybe they should of listened to. And should they succeed, then everyone learned something that we previously thought wouldn't work, and we grow from either result.

Example: Say your team wishes to do a Holonomic Drive this year. Most people here would say that was not the right choice of drive, and when you discuss this with the students have them lay out the pros and cons with some assistance from you. When they decide to still choose this drive after you do your best to show the flaws in the choice, Your job becomes trying to make their choice work. Maybe you have to double up on wheels to make sure things don't break as easily. Something. Should it work, your almost guaranteed to have some fame from other teams, students will be thrilled etc etc. Should it fail, the students learn first hand why that process doesn't work the way they thought.

Either way you helped them through the whole process and they will appreciate you.

Just my (long) 2 cents :)

Re: Mentor Roles
 

One thing I haven't seen addressed is the definition of success and failure. Depending on the team, these can have hugely different definitions. Simbotics wouldn't produce a basic kitbot with no manipulators and call it a success. But rookie teams (including teams that, while not rookies, might as well be due to turnover or other issues) would.

As an LRI at competition, I define success as getting every team in the field with something that moves. It doesn't have to be pretty, it doesn't have to be able to manipulate game pieces overly well, but it needs to get out there and move. Just moving on the field is enough to let your team contribute to the alliance - herding balls, helping with defenses, playing defense against the other alliance... These are all things that can be done with a basic kitbot with no additions. And that robot can be put together in a day - I've seen it happen before practice day at competition, believe it or not.

So yes, you may be behind schedule. Yes, you may not get your manipulator done and yes, you may not play the game as effectively as you want. But if you have faith, work with your students, and show up to competition with something that at least drives you will make it to the field to compete.. It may not be what you consider a success,. But it may help inspire the kids for next season, or inspire some changes in the team structure. Trust me, I've been there. My team did not have what we consider a successful season last year. Our robot did not perform well at all, not nearly up to our standards. But it has inspired the entire team for this year, and things are looking very different right now than they died at this same point last year.

I recommend sitting down with the students and asking them to come up with a priority list. What do they want to get done? What do they want their ROBOT to look like? What is the most important part of the robot that absolutely HAS to be finished?. Do that and you can ensure that your robot can at least move and do SOMETHING at cocompetition, even if it doesn't do EVERYTHING the team wants it to do.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Thanks for these quotes! "Mentor-based" is in our team's mission statement, I just couldn't figure out where it came from... :rolleyes:

-Mike

Re: Mentor Roles
 

There are lots of different thoughts here and, as several have said, all teams are a little different and you'll (with other mentors?) have to figure out the path for your team....

Our team approaches things like this: The mentors will makes sure that a functional robot gets built - not necessarily a good robot or a competitive robot, but something that rolls around the floor and "tries" to help. They will also offer ideas, coaching, etc. that will give the kids the opportunity to go much further. If the kids have a really difficult concept they wish to pursue and are willing to put forth the effort to do so, the mentors will help them to get there, but the effort must be driven by the students.

Do you let the kids fail? It depends. Sometimes kids fail because they lack the know-how or skills to accomplish something. If this is the case and they are trying hard, then no: make sure they find success. This doesn't need to be a winning robot, but it should be something that allows the to enjoy playing the game. Ideally, if kids are working hard and find themselves not building the glorious robot they envisioned because they lack the engineering abilities to do so, they will be inspired to acquire those skills so that they might realize that goal the following year.

However, if the kid are failing due to apathy, lack of motivation, other priorities, etc., you might need to let them fail. However, don't make it easy for them. Have meetings with the leadership (or whole team, depending on the team's structures), and let them know that you are concerned. Offer guidance and support. Kindly make sure they understand the consequences of they choices they are making, etc. Give them multiple opportunities to self-correct. However, if at the end of the day, they just refuse to build the robot, they need to fail. I very much disagree with the idea that kids should be permitted to knowingly make poor choices and still be led to a reward.

Of course, sometimes kids are failing because they don't trust their mentors' sage advice, suggesting a disconnect. If this is the case, the primary goal of the mentors must be to re-establish the student-mentor relationship. The students might, for instance, choose a design that has no chance of success in the eyes of professional engineers.... However, being teenagers, they don't recognize that the professionals might know more than they do and insist on moving forward with their design. On our team, we approach such a situation like this: As mentors, we agree to support their misguided attempts and do whatever we can to help them to be successful in their pursuit of said failing principle. However, at the same time, we insist that they, with mentor guidance, also pursue a back-up plan that will succeed. Simply put: Sometimes kids need to be confronted with their own lack of expertise before they are willing to trust those who are veritable experts.

I wish you well. It is always tough on an entire team when leadership dynamics are not working well. And, yes, mentors are necessarily a part of the leadership of a team.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Try setting up a timeline with deadlines and encourage the students to meet those deadlines. This can be a useful skill for them to learn as well as keeping them on track so that they will have a finished robot at the end of the build season.

You can try to explain to them why you think that they might fail. No, building the robot for them is not your role, you should be working alongside one another. The purpose of a mentor is to teach the students how to do something, not to do that something for them. However just stepping back and allowing them to fail without providing guidance is also not the right approach either in my opinion, whether or not they choose to follow your advice is up to them.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Welcome to being a mentor. I will likely be the hardest fun you will ever have.

Mentors are definitely part of the program. As others have said, it is part of the core values.

Mentors being part of the team will ultimately be your Team's decision. I personally will not be a mentor on a team that will not let me be "part" of the team.

As a new mentor, I will caution you that there are a lot of similarities, but a lot of differences between FIRST teams and "high tech projects". the first season you help out can be overwhelming and I suggest you try not to be too pushy as you do not know the background. This can be hard, especially for someone with your large amount of experience. Hopefully a personal anecdote might help.
************************************************** *******
For example, I have worked with a few teams in the past. In 2009, I was introduced to a rookie school 3 weeks into build season, and we did not skip any steps, but built a minimally competitive robot (MCC) (it drove around and did positive actions, and even ended up backing its way into an event win that year). I also had about a decade working with a very successful team, and then last year started helping a different successful team.

Even though I had 10 years of FIRST experience (and 15 years of industry experience), I was new to that team. At one point I thought they were irreversibly behind, but they were following their process and ended up with a pretty successful season (a 2nd and 2 first place district finishes along with decent showing at MSC and Worlds (played in elims at both).

They were behind "my expectations" of where they should be, but they were meeting their standards, and ultimately produced pretty good results.

I will not work with a team that won't let me be part of the team. As others have said, that is part of my fun, and my "pay". We are all teammates, as you said in your post, some of us have different roles.

I also will not work with a team that is content with failure. Failure is a perfectly fin thing to have happen, I just push for it to occur early and in the development process, and want them to do their best to mitigate failure during competition.

Your team is young enough that it is likely still getting its culture. Work with them on that. Even on established team with agreement of student mentor involvement, you will have an occasional student that thinks mentors should do nothing. It happens. Try to help them understand the program and if you can point to team values. If your team doesn't have that, point to FIRST values of a mentor based program.

another phrase I like:

We all volunteer to be a part of this team. I work with the students, not for them, nor do they work for me.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

There's frequently a lot of conversation on student-built vs mentor-built. I used to have much stronger opinions on that, then I came sort of to what I would consider "middle of the road", but in the last couple of years I've come to conclusion that's the wrong way to think of the problem.

My focus is on student accountability. If the students feel accountable for the robot and success of the team - then I don't care how involved or uninvolved the mentors are.

A student-led (mentors there just to make sure students don't lose any fingers) team is no good if the students don't feel accountable and don't feel some pressure to make the team succeed. In other words, they students are just there having "fun" and learning - which maybe they still have fun regardless of the amount of success! That's good - but there are much cheaper, less stressful ways of doing that. Too many people put too much money and time in for a team to not be actively working towards a team that can compete (whether that competition is focused on a robot on the field, or the impact they're having on the community).

Alternatively, a mentor-led team (even one where students are actively involved and learning) is no good either (in my opinion) if the students don't feel accountable for the robot and the team. In other words, if they view the mentors as a safety net and rely on mentors to produce award winning concepts/prototypes/ideas. If a team wins (whether an award or just general success on the field), but the students don't feel ownership over it - then I think a big part of FIRST is missing. Even if the students are inspired and excited about being a part of a winning team.

If students are working hard - I'm working hard along side with them. If students are not working hard - I'm working hard to figure out why they aren't and what needs to change.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I would love to have a anthropologist study this situation. I think students go primal and do much of what they do out of instinct because the feel the stress and pressure of a looming deadline. Time decay is everyone's worst enemy. Finding leadership and building a team bond are the most important things you can do right now. If everyone doesn't wake up and get on the same plan, <insert a sports analogy>.


Its hard to step back look at the scenario and then figure out the best way to triage it. I would approach it like you do at work, or in a 2 minute drill in football. First step, clean slate.
Step 1) Clean slate. Forget everything up to today.

Step 2) Do what you do best. Take a simple plan, a stupidly simple design. Run with it. Be disciplined, classify everything into a Day 1 feature or a Day 2 feature. You'll get to Day 2 after Day 1 is delivered.

Step 3) Deliver ASAP. This is the time where everyone digs deep and puts something out there.


When dealing with people that don't get on board with the initial plan,
I'd respond to a lot of questions similar to "I don't get it". They will point to something that they did already, and then I'll just say "I don't get it". Over time it works. But building team bond and trust, then getting everyone on the same page with simplicity is the first step to recovery.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I know what you meant, but I still got a good laugh.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Hauki

Thank you for taking the time and effort to do what you do. Thanks also for caring enough to seek help for your team.

If the student really believes this when he/she calms down, that student is misguided, as many people posting here have said. That student should read section 1.2 of the Admin Manual.

Not all students are qualified to serve in leadership positions. Similarly, not all adults are qualified to serve in leadership positions.

I often cringe when I hear about "100% student led teams". In many of instances I have experienced, students who do not have the maturity or accountability are doing whatever comes to mind while spending other peoples money. I only hope that these students grow up to become responsible adults. Unfortunately, I know some of them won't because I see adults who act just as irresponsibly.

On the other hand, I have also worked with quite a few students (especially from 624) who have shown great ability to take responsibility and organize their efforts and the efforts of their team members to deliver outstanding results. These students definitely have earned the right to lead their teams.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Re: Getting off track?
Was the basic engineering design process used from the start of the season? Did the team come up with a list of priorities and rank them? Have they done that for each of the sub-teams? If so, then you can point to them back to those and remind them that they aren't working to what they said their priorities were.

If they didn't follow the basic engineering design process, it might be worth having a team meeting for 30 minutes (with the lead mentor/coach introducing you and what you want to do, including your background - this is critical so the team understands all of the mentors/coaches are on board with this) and have the students evaluate each of the various things going on and what is and isn't working, what is and isn't feasible, etc. Let the students come up with the answers. If there's something you see going on, guide them to that answer.

Re: Failure
"Failure is not an option" when human lives are at stake. There are no human lives at stake in this competition. We live in a society where nobody is allowed to make mistakes anymore. I say, let them make mistakes and fail. They will learn more from that than they will from having everything work out.

I can tell you of several robots I've worked on over the years, but one of the lessons I will never forget is because of a pneumatic piston that my professor and I couldn't get to rotate, regardless of what we did. The Monday after the competition, he came to the lab and said he spoke to his wife (a civil engineer) about it. She reminded him that we were trying to rotate the piston through the center line, rather than using something slightly off, like a crane uses. I probably didn't explain that clearly, but it's definitely something that I will remember because it was a failure, not a success.

Re: Mentor a part of team?
As others have said, the mentor is a part of the team. However, I was working with a team earlier this year that I was never introduced to and felt like I was only able to contribute to a few students because they were willing to accept the help. (I do miss those students and feel guilty when I think of them.) That was a team with several years under their belt and didn't want to change how they did things.

I am lucky in that the rookie team I am with now and I gel quite well.
Working with the rookie team was always planned, but I intended to keep working with the other team, as well.

In the end, I had to make a decision based on my emotional well-being, and it was accepted and understood by the mentors of the other team. (In fact, it was expected that I would end up only working with the rookie team.)

My point is, if your emotional well-being is compromised by the attitudes of this current team, please re-evaluate if it is the right team for you. As adults, we're often expected to "just deal with" things. The reality is, if you don't take care of yourself emotionally, things will get worse for you and the team.

Re: Other opportunities
If you find that this is not the right team, there are other ways to volunteer for this year at local regionals/competitions. Next year, you can try to work with a local rookie team. I find it is far easier to work with rookie teams than established teams because rookies need guidance and have not gotten "set in their ways".

I apologize for the length of this post, but I wanted to touch on a number of issues that I thought were important.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

My opinion on this matter probably doesn't matter as much because I am not an adult mentor, but here's what I've noticed now more than ever now that I'm no longer a student member of the team.

Mentors are there to hammer in a good work habit. They're there to support the students no matter what path they take. They're there to have the students show themselves the way, instead of just telling the students what to do.

Take for example this year's game. Let's say the students want to use direct drive cim motors and a winch to climb, and one very long pneumatic piston to launch the ball, and you as a mentor already know this will not work. Instead of saying "no that won't work try something else" or "that idea sucks please let's stick to feasible options", you would teach them the resources needed to show themselves why that it is not going to work. Essentially teach them what they need to know so they can show themselves that it won't work.


You aren't explicitly saying that it will not work, you are giving them the resources needed to have them prove to themselves that it won't work. You are also providing education so they can use it in the future. This is basically what FIRST is all about, IMHO.

And maybe that's not your problem. But my point is that mentors are there to keep students on task and to teach them. Like it has been said before, each team has a different culture, but fundamentally, to have a good student/mentor dynamic (imo, again everyone's team is different), the mentor needs to practice what is called "tough love" ;)

When I was a student on my team I honestly got quite annoyed sometimes at all the mentors. But now viewing it from an outside perspective I respect the mentors even more for being so hard on us and I truly believe if they weren't that hard we wouldn't have finished our robot on time.

I'm not saying beat them down with a bench grinder, but realize the difference between goofing off/being lazy and legitimately stressed out from working. Chances are if you practice "tough love" you'll see that the goofing off/laziness will soon turn into tiredness from hard work and I think that's a beautiful thing.

And I'm not saying it should be an everyday thing either. You're a mentor after all, not a dictator, but when the students need guidance give them guidance.

Just my $0.05 (to compensate for inflation).

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Lots of good discussion here, but I'll two points that I haven't seen yet:

1) Students on the team are by definition not yet adults. And in fact, they have not yet developed adult-level judgement. One of the roles for mentors is to be the adult in the room. Sometimes that means reminding students of the facts in the situation and potential consequences of their interpretation. It also means that mentors must make adult judgments on safety and the course of instruction.

2) Mentors generally represent the institutional memory of the team. No student is likely to be on a team longer than 4 years and probably less. If a mentor is not a member of the team, how is that institutional memory to be passed on. Students tend to underestimate the value of wisdom and experience (see (1) above!).

The bottom line is that I see the loss of a mentor from a team more consequential than the loss of a disgruntled student team member. Don't be afraid to assert your role and importance.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

that is a very slippery slope. Teams are there for the benefit of the students involved. Yes, that benefit is generally amplified for every mentor involved (decreasing the student:mentor ratio leads to more personalized attention, better knowledge transfer, and hopefully more inspiration). However, losing a student at the expensive of a mentor goes directly against what FIRST is all about. We're here to inspire students and make them excited about science and technology. A disgruntled student that leaves the team is the opposite of inspired. It may be more work, but I believe there is always a way for a mentor to figure out how to reach a student productively. Mentors are much more knowledgeable and experienced individuals... They should use that to bridge the gap towards working with students, not force one out that seems disgruntled.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I'm fairly confident this statement does not hold up.

Some students are bent against not working with mentors. Depending on the team's philosophy and what role mentors play, this may mean the student chooses to leave. I don't think that is "un-FIRST".

-Mike

Re: Mentor Roles
 

I agree with many of the above posters, but also have this to say:

In 12 years of FRC competition, I don't recall ever seeing a team that simply could not compete at all.

Saw plenty of teams whose robots were not working as intended, and plenty more relegated to 'easier' roles such as defensive positions (though you'll never hear me say defense is easy. Effective defence is anything but.)

I've even seen on a couple of occasions a team who arrived to an event to find that their robot had not arrived due to some shipping SNAFU, and managed to cobble together a functional-enough robot from the help of other team's spare parts on thursday, that I don't think they missed even one match of that event, and they even made Eliminations.

Basically: Its much too early to resign yourself to the belief that they won't even have a functional robot, as it can be done in under 24 hours if you're motivated.

This year, a box on wheels of sufficient type can traverse one or more types of DEFENSEs and contribute to their ALLIANCE in a meaningful way.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

As quoted earlier in the thread, the FIRST mission statement says:
The mission is to inspire through a mentor based program. Forcing someone out because the mentors can't find a way to work with them does not fall anywhere near that mission. It means the mentors failed to engage with that student. They failed to inspire that student. In short, they failed the whole point of the program with regards to that student.

I've known students to discover, through the program, that their passion lies elsewhere and leave to follow that passion. There's nothing wrong with that. But to have them leave because a mentor can't get along with them? The should never happen.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Jon,

I think I agree with you here.

My observation has been more along the lines of "a student can't get along with a mentor", not "a mentor can't get along with a student".

I agree, mentors need to be adults and get along (as well as guide, inspire, etc) students.

However, if a student refuses to get along with mentor(s) on the team, despite mentors being adults and trying to work things out with said student, it seems like said student leaving is natural and not-so-terrible conclusion.

What do you think?

-Mike

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Yes, it may be a natural conclusion, but when something like that happens, it should at the minimum cause the mentors for the team to reevaluate how they work with the students.

In my 10 years working with my team, we have never, not once, had a student leave because they couldn't find a way to work with the mentors or other team members - we always work at it until we find a way to make it work. We've had some leave because of conflicts with other activities (They prioritize theater or skiing or whatever over robotics and don't feel they can invest time in both), or because their parents had been forcing them to go and finally let the student make up their own mind (oddly enough, they usually come back after a year off in those situations!), and we've had plenty change how they work on the team by switching subteams/focus areas when they find the one they were in wasn't to their liking. But never has anyone left because of a conflict with a mentor or other student.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

Thank you everyone who has replied. These comments should be bound and published as a mentor handbook!

Just to be clear, my idea of fail is to not field any sort of robot at a competition. At this point we don't have a moving chassis but are still spending too much brainstorming on how to climb the wall. I keep trying to redirect the team on getting the chassis built. It has just been challenging.

A little backgound. This is the teams 5th year. We are a small team with 4 mentors (1 engineering, 3 business) and 9 students. All this years mentors are new. We have 2 students that have been with the program and the rest are new 9th graders. I really have no idea why the former mentors dropped out but it has left a big gap.

From my conversations and observation of the team I believe the focus in the past has has had too much emphais on getting a robot built at all costs and not enough about team and individual building.

The students lack many of the hard and soft skills needed to get though a build season. If you dump some people into a high pressure situation where they don't have all the technical, analysis, planning, stress management, negotiation, leadership, ownership, etc skills needed, then there are going to be issues. I have come to realize I can't resolve these issues during build season. I can only triage the situation and do my best to keep the team moving forward. Work needs to be done off season to build a team and prepare them for the season.

It is what it is.


"We struck down evil with the mighty sword of teamwork and the hammer of not-bickering." Mystery Men

Re: Mentor Roles
 

It sounds like your team is fairly young (student-wise, at least), so letting them fail wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, since they'll always have future years to improve. In my experience, the most effective mentoring has been the question-asking type - why are you doing this? Why did you decide not to do this? Teach them to think for themselves by asking them the questions they should have already asked themselves. If they've fallen in love with their designs and won't listen to anything negative about them (trust me, it definitely happens), then at least encourage them to test their design early so that they can fix it.

As someone on the other side of the mentor/student partnership, I can safely say that mentoring is a very tough job. Walking the line of helping too much and helping too little must be a huge challenge, and your students (even if they don't right now) will come to appreciate your efforts.

Good luck! :)

Re: Mentor Roles
 

This year is my second year mentoring a FRC team (first year mentoring my alma mater that I was on in 2013). I have found a unique analogy from one of my classes that I TA'ed in college where my professor (Dr. Corson) said, "Think of it like a ride at Disney Land, you're the track and the students are the car. They can move freely about (within reason), but the track prevents them from getting too far off."
And for me, it has been kind of hard to step back and let the students run the team, but I feel like I am slowly transforming from a mentor that likes to do hands-on stuff to a mentor that is more of a facilitator and provides guidance and suggestions while letting the students use their skills to solve the problem.

Re: Mentor Roles
 

This is where you have to use guided logic with the students.

On a board (preferably White Board), write down:
Chassis Build Climb Wall Brainstorm/Build
Pros Cons Pros Cons

Hopefully they can come to the realization that climbing the wall won't mean much if they don't have a moving chassis. The hard part as a mentor is getting the students to understand that the chassis takes more than an hour to build and code. (Yes, it can and has been done in a day.) Or, if they think that is the case, tell them to give you that hour for the chassis and then they can go back to the Climb Wall Brainstorm.

The other thing to guide them to as a pro for Chassis Build is they can learn how to build other mechanisms and use tools, thus speeding up the Climb Wall Brainstorm.

Keep us posted on how things are going,
indieFan

Re: Mentor Roles
 

With the number of people involved in this program, there will be a few students who just won't work with the mentors, no matter what the mentors do.

The first team I worked with had two such students. Not only did they drive away all the previous mentors, they ruined the experience for all the other team members who were pushed aside by their actions. Unfortunately, speaking with their parents would not have improved anything since they were indulgent up to the point where they broke holes in the walls of their house while driving the robot inside. That team no longer exists. The sponsoring teacher retired and those two students graduated. None of the other students were inspired enough by their experience to try to keep the team going.

I know Jon advocates doing everything to work with such students so they can have a positive experience but at what cost?