New Machine Shop
 

Hello CD Community

I am looking for assistance in choosing the best products to stock team 4270s new machine shop.

What we have:
JET JTM 1050EVS Manual Mill with 3 axis DRO
JET JTM 1050 with ACU-RITE 3 axis CNC
JET GHB 1340A Lathe - No DRO
2x JET Band Saw
Floor Mount JET JDP-20EVS Drill Press

What we are purchasing:
1 - Horizontal bandsaw, miter saw with bi-metal blade or abrasive chop saw
1 - belt/disc sander combo - probably JET with a 6in. belt
1 - Miller TIG welder and welding table
1 - Air Compressor ~40-60 gal capacity
1 - Bench Top Drill Press
2 - Shop Vacs
assorted power tools - drills, circular saws
MT3 and R8 Collet sets, R8 End Mill holders
assorted hand tools - Files, rubber mallets, socket sets etc.

I am looking for information for the list below:

1. KURT or Kurt Type work holding - I assume KURT is the go to brand for work holding.
2. Edge finders, digital preferred
3. End Mills and other cutting tools for the milling machines and lathe - Where do you buy your bits from? We are in Hawaii so Online sources are preferred.
4. Measuring tools, Calipers - digital, micrometers etc, I prefer Mituyo. Are there any other "good" brands?

Future Plans:
48x48 CNC Router
2 Bench top milling machines
2 Bench Top lathes

If I have missed anything important, please let me know. If you have any suggestions, please PM me or post here! We want to get this shop fully up and running by August.

Thank you!
T.Takashima
Team 2504/4270

I am used to running a limited resource shop so we usually buy cheap tooling etc.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

I highly recommend a Velox CNC router, we bought one of these with a HSD 3HP spindel last year and we love it.

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!vr-5050-4-x-4/c23m8

Re: New Machine Shop
 

That CNC router looks good! We will keep that in mind.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

+1. Our 2016 season would not be possible without it.

-Mike

Re: New Machine Shop
 

What is the MT3 collet set for? It it's for the benchtop lathes I recommend moving to a 5c collet chuck instead of the MT3 spindle, as 5c collets allow for sticking stock out the back of the lathe.
I'm not sure you need R8 endmill holders either, as the Bridgeport-style mill you're looking at isn't going to be able to take more than a collet's load anyway. However, a pneumatic toolchager is fantastic for shorter students or just for convenience. It makes using the mill faster than walking over to the drill press. :P
You'll want vise and table-mount stops for your mill too for milling identical parts.
I generally look for deals on Ebay for non-precision stuff like clamps and stops.

If you buy benchtop mills, make sure they are not round-column. Dovetail column is practically a must due to numerous problems with moving round-columns up and down.

I would skip the horizontal bandsaw if you are already getting bandsaws and a miter saw. The latter two cover all your bases. Miter saws are easier to set up imo as well.

As far as edge finder I use manual, as they are cheap and repeatable. Electronics, while more expensive to be as good, are easier to use.
EDIT: make sure you do get a good indicator though for squaring up your spindle and table and centering holes.

End mills from closing machine shops and the like are my go-to (retired machinists also have good stock) but I highly recommend buying a carbide insert face mill for really nice finishes.

We have a Brown and Sharpe 6" for normal stuff and a 12" Mitutoyo for long stuff. I like both brands, and I think anything will work as long as it's reputable. Used Mitutoyos are really cheap on Ebay, but Brown and Sharpe are more expensive even used. Depending on the precision you're looking for used might be ok.
Dial calipers are easier to get a good measurement out of than digitals for me, as I can see the needle move to the "true" measurement.
I'm not sure you even need micrometers, as they are difficult to read and are usually overkill for FRC. However, a digital 0-1" Mitutoyo is only $40 used, and reads dead-on for shaft diameters.

A quiet air compressor lets people talk while working. I had to work with a really loud one for a couple years, and switching to a quiet one was an immense change.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

We just got one of these
http://www.cncplasmacutterinc.com/
Plasma router combo mills aluminum well

Re: New Machine Shop
 

Thanks for the Reply asid61!

1.Ill look at the 5C collet chuck.

2. The R8 End Mill Holders are for quicker tool changes with tools of the same shank dia. although a collet + power draw bar would be just as quick. Maybe we can save some money here!

3. We are looking at 1 or 2 KURT 690s for the CNC and 1 for the Manual with 5/8 clamp sets for each.

4. I thought about purchasing boring heads but with the CNC I didn't think one would be necessary.

5. Good idea on the dove tail over round column bench top mills, ill look into that once we know what our future funding is going to look like.

6. The horizontal bandsaw is an option due to being safer to operate. We will probably buy an abrasive cutoff saw first though.

7. A carbide insert face mill would be a great idea!

8. Thats 2 for Mitutoyo! Ill look into purchasing Brown and Sharpe calipers too.

9. Yeah, we currently work with a rather loud compressor. This one would be located in a side room out of the way. A quieter compressor is still something ill look for.

Thanks for the advice!

Re: New Machine Shop
 

@snoman

Would you be willing to share the details on cost/table size that you purchased?

Re: New Machine Shop
 

My dad owns a cnc machine shop and he always buys end mills, vises and step jaws from MSC Industrial Supply.

Vices: http://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/09215112
Step jaws: http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.co...p-single-side/

For end mills I would recommend 1/4, 3/8, 1/2, all 3/32 all three flute carbide:
http://www.mscdirect.com/browse/Mill...navid=12106227
These ones work great: http://www.edgetechnologyproducts.co...p-single-side/

-Tim

Re: New Machine Shop
 

Agreed. A horizontal bandsaw is nice, but it takes up a lot of space and takes a fair bit longer to set up. We got this compound miter saw and a higher-end non ferrous metal blade and it works great. Super easy to cut whatever angle you need very quick.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

Those D688s are about $200 cheaper than the new 690, we may purchase these instead. Thanks for the info!

Re: New Machine Shop
 

I second all of this.

If your looking into bench top CNC mills look at the Nomad 883 by Carbide 3D, for the price its the best I've seen.

With edge finders I don't see the point in digital, just something else to run out of battery. The standard wigglers are great, Starrett is a reputable maker of those.

For dial calipers go Brown and Sharpe (what I use), they're the best. Starrett dial calipers aren't what they use to be. For digital I like the Mitutoyos.

For a quite compressor I think screw compressors are the way to go. 192 has a Kaeser.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

One of the Youtube channels I frequent did a walk-around of a Kaeser screw compressor just a few days ago. I've got my eye on one as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDs5dr7whpM

Re: New Machine Shop
 

We have two of this compressor.First one was installed about 3 and a half years ago, and it's been great since. It's able to keep up with two CNC mills with blow guns and air-powered hand tool usage without a problem.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

A rotary screw compressor is not the answer for that equipment mix. Save $5k and get a good quality 2 stage reciprocating compressor that runs at 800 rpm. The 800 rpm ones are significantly quieter than the 1750 or 3450 rpm ones.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

Glacern vises go on sale in November. I love mine.

If you're set on Kurt, buy from Enco on sale if they are covered. There are occasionally 20% sales. There is a 25% off and free shipping (not sure if it applies OCONUS) sale every once in a while. I haven't been on their mailing list long enough to know the pattern. Since you're in Hawaii I don't think their March Machinery Madness sale will be of benefit for free shipping.

I got the team to buy one of the Shars 4" for the small Emco FB mill we have. It is a great vise and the 6" opening is great.

What is wrong with a edge finder like this? I can't see spending a lot on something like this.

Don't get an abrasive cutoff saw if you primarily work aluminum. You can explode the blade cutting aluminum.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

Machine tools are only useful if you have experienced mentors to train students how to safely use them each year. The need for multiple machine tools also assumes your team has enough experienced students to accurately produce parts on them.

Given your current list of equipment, I would add a decent grinder first. (Baldor or similar).

I assume your Jet Mills takes an R8 collets.

I have ordered tooling from use.enco.com. They have a good range of products and manufactures.

If you have one full size lathe, I'm not sure the need for multiple bench lathes. I could see maybe one second smaller one setup with a four chuck for convenience. The small lathe would need separate AXA sized tooling then your existing lathe.

I've always used mechanical edge and center finders. They're simple and a lot less expensive than a digital unit (that can break).

A 2 inch dial indicator would be a good addition to your existing lathe. It makes locating shaft features fairly easy.

How are you machining parts now if you don't already have an assortment of dial indicators and digital calibers? Given the abuse these might take on an FRC team I wouldn't buy top of the line here. The Harbor Freight specials would have more than enough accuracy for most FRC uses, and the're cheap enough to keep a lot around.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

@Cory, ill look at purchasing a compressor of that type.

@Protoserge, we will probably purchase a compound miter saw with non ferrous blade as we wont be doing any steel cuts.

@InFlight, We will have multiple mentors (college and professional) trained on these machine tools, training the students wont take much time and we will have from August till December to do it. Most of the robotics kids on our 16-17 roster will be taking our robotics and engineering 2 course which will have a shop aspect attached (Use of the milling machines, lathe, CNC etc.).

As it stands we will offer 5 robotics courses in the fall, 6th grade (LEGO), 7th grade(VEX IQ), 8th grade(VEX), 9-11th Engineering and Robotics 1 (FTC), 10-12th Engineering and Robotics 2 (FRC Final project). The additional small machines will be primarily used to complete in class projects and to make small parts for FRC.

We have two dial indicators for the mills and lathe. Yes our mills are R8.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

We have a Delta Shopmaster chop saw, as well as a horizontal bandsaw. I'm a rookie this year, but from what I've seen so far, I would say go with a chop saw before a bandsaw. Our bandsaw can be a bit slow and it doesn't always cut straight. The chop saw, which almost everyone on the team seems to prefer, always cuts straight, quickly and easily. I've seen it slice through wood, PVC pipe, a solid round PVC roller thing, and an aluminum pipe. It went through all of that like a hot knife through a stick of butter. You just have to be careful when cutting something too small to clamp one side down, as that piece can(and will!) go flying. ::ouch:: As for calipers, from my limited experience with them, I prefer the dial type. Having used both, digital ones are hard to use, IMO.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

See attached

Re: New Machine Shop
 

That's not bad. Does it work well for you? We're pretty happy with our PlasmaCAM, but oh man I wish we had a water table. People will tell you a plasma makes smoke without one, but you have no idea.... It's so bad. Trust me, you want a water table.

Re: New Machine Shop
 

You're all making me drool! We're getting by with so much less. Trying to get a mini-mill or even an X-Y table for a drill press is a challenge. Guess it's time to focus on sponsorship in the off-season!

Re: New Machine Shop
 

If your bandsaw isn't cutting straight, you need to adjust the guides and bearings. Look up how to properly set it up. I'm sure your team will get good results!

Re: New Machine Shop
 

I think some people have made some minor adjustments, not sure. I'll try to see if we can get it to cut straight again, though I think part of the problem is Harbor Freight's "high quality" Chinese engineering. Though the vertical bandsaws are great!

Re: New Machine Shop
 

Make sure this danger is understood: http://www.esabna.com/us/en/educatio...ater-table.cfm
QUOTE=ctt956;1537521]I think some people have made some minor adjustments, not sure. I'll try to see if we can get it to cut straight again, though I think part of the problem is Harbor Freight's "high quality" Chinese engineering. Though the vertical bandsaws are great![/quote]

There is a large following for the 4"x6" bandsaw. You should easily find the adjustment methods. It takes about an hour from what I gathered. Also run a nice bi-metal blade. I wish our team had one. Maybe next year.