Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...r-2-if-so-does

It seems like they are almost ruling velcro on bumpers illegal and hence reversible bumpers?

An argument could be that you design your velcro so it's not visible, but now we're stuck with defining visible!

What are other peoples interpretations?

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

They don't want visible velcro because it can interfere with another bot's bumpers if they stick to it (or the carpet could, I don't know). If it's hidden behind the bumper and used for reversing, I don't see any issues popping up.
Teams have been using those for years, and this year's manual does not seem to word the rules there significantly differently.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Wow. If this is actually true, then this is a major setback. If this stands, even the RoboPromo reversible bumpers would be considered illegal, which is going to come and bite a lot of teams come competition.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Just don't use velcro...
https://youtu.be/XYTiRxLw7oA

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

First, I assume the rule they're referring to is actually R21-D, because R27 doesn't have a part D (or parts, for that matter).
That being said, I don't think that it necessarily puts us "stuck defining visible." What they seem concerned with is the faces of the bumper and where robots will be making contact.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Well we are still making reversible bumpers. If we get to our event and they call it illegal we will have little patches to put over the velcro but, I do not want to have to do that.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

I recommend Someone with access posts a follow-up question, asking them to define regions where Velcro would not be "visible" and thus legal on bumpers. In the "hard parts" section? Behind the plywood backing?

The wording of the original question makes it sound like the Velcro would be on the front face of the bumper, which I would expect the GDC to say is illegal.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Another way to do it would be to have both colors removable, then all of the velcro would be covered during competition.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

I have some backstory on this question and it's really VERY upsetting and a counter example of the idea of gracious professionalism as a whole.

Let's not use Q&A as a weapon guys.

Now, as a counter to this point, if the hook and loop is confined to areas that would be...

A) Fully contained within the area of the bumper where "hard parts" are allowed as shown in figure 4-7 below R21-G.

and

B) Could be covered with the aluminum angle specifically permitted within R21-E

Also, per R21-D there are accommodations within the rules specifically to allow reversible bumpers.

Personally, I'm ignoring this for now as I agree that it mostly concerns areas where interface occurs between robots in the course of a match. We've done reversible bumpers since 2010 (except for last year of course).

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Wow, I really hope they clarify this one. But this is another case of "They way we've always done it" (by multiple teams) not making it right. As an inspector, this is an item to add to the checklist that is not always a quick fix on practice day.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Give the GDC until Friday and it'll be fixed. At this point, asinine Q&A rulings that don't even begin to grasp the consequence of such a clarification are the norm, as is the usual CD response to them. Thankfully, the swift corrective action by a Team Update is also the norm. If there's nothing in the Friday Team Update about this, then get out the pitchforks...

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Q&A'd in my somewhat confrontational, "are you sure that's a good idea?" style: Q798

To be clear, Q&A'd since there's no guarantee that the GDC will notice/care about a small, pitchfork-less CD thread.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

I'm glad the follow up question is posted. I do see a reading of the rules that has external velcro even in the hard parts area being struck down. Imagine the can of worms it would open when people want to add other parts to the hard parts area for an advantage. This will be a tricky one.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

For 2014 I made our team made "reversible" bumpers. They weren't reversible in the sense of them being attached but more the blue one gets placed atop the red layer, and can be peeled off.

I had used a staple gun and attached duralock to the plywood on the top, bottom and sides of the bumper where it wasn't touching the chassis.
Attaching them to the blue side was a little more challenging, basically i used the staple gun again while having metal on the underside the the fabric, this caused the staples to go through the duralock and fabric then bend, afterwords i used a hammer to push down any staple backs that were sticking out, and made sure no one can get caught on the staples.

The design worked well, the only problem I could think of is duralock takes more force to peel apart.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

According to the Q&A, velcro on the hard parts IS LEGAL!

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

While this was expected, it still makes me happy :)

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Sweet. That makes two team updates I've made it into this year.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

You're not kidding. Me too.

Also, thank you @Kevin.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

This is not necessarily a good thing. Ask Raul about some Wildstang strategies that were disallowed by Team Updates. ;)

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Gary, Better to find out about disallowed strategies through team updates than through failing inspection, fouls, technical fouls, yellow cards, and red cards!

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

Funny thing is, the particular strategy referenced was specifically NOT ruled illegal by Q&A!

Then it was used. That's when the Team Update was issued.


The backstory: Back in '07, you got points for having robots entirely supported by other robots. The rules (initially) didn't specify that robots couldn't start stacked on each other. When Wildstang (and Raul) found themselves with two barely-mobile partners, the alliance agreed to stack the partners during match setup and then E-stop the pair of them, while Wildstang scored what they could. Worked perfectly... then the next Tuesday, the Team Update declared that strategy illegal.

Re: Reversable Bumpers Illegal?
 

There's also been cases of other rule updates that pop up after the Week 0 shakedown event(s) and even after Week 1 official events. Teams come up with ways to circumvent rules, or even break the game, that the GDC didn't consider before. This is no reflection on the GDC. 40000 young minds come up with strategies that a handful of game designers missed.