Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Has anyone in the FRC community used the regulators in the link below in an FRC application and can comment on any reliability/performance issues, technical concerns, or legality concerns that I may be missing for FRC use?

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...Series)/AR-213

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I work at AutomationDirect and am happy to answer any questions.

The regulator works great and is used in industry all over the world.

I think the issue you are going to run into is the rules (R77i) specify the max output pressure of any regulator used has to be 60psi. This one goes to 130psi so if I am reading the rules correctly, this would not be legal.

Of course, if it is downstream from a 60psi regulator I wonder if that still applies ... the rules don't see to allow for that ...

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Rick, the way I read that rule is that the regulator must be set to a mximum of 60 PSI. I know that the regulators that used to be included in the KOP could be set to a higher pressure, but were checked at inspection to verify the setting. It could be that the rules are different this year, I'm not sure.

Also, last year we used one of your in-line regulators with push-to-connect fittings. I can't find those on your website. What was the part number? I remember a line of gauges and valves along similar lines.

Edit: here it is: I found it. It was not under regultors, but under special purpose fittings.

Thanks in advance,

Martin

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Emphasis mine:

Looking at the spec sheet, I don't see anything about this being a relieving regulator. That is, if the low side pressure is increased to greater than 60 psi (e.g. through mechanical compression of a cylinder that pushes air back through the system), the regulator is required to relieve that excess pressure.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Martin - Thanks for answering the question for me. Those mini fittings are awesome ...

GeeTwo - I'll find the answer on that .. stay tuned ...

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Turns out they ARE venting regulators. See the description here where it says " Excess pressure is vented to atmosphere until equilibrium is reached. "

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Yeah I always read it that way too, but in re-reading it before posting here, I felt it could be interpreted either way and wasn't sure.

Maybe someone can shed some light?

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Take a look at the blue box under R82 - the recommended primary regulators haven't changed from previous years. They are capable of more than 60 PSI, but have to be set to 60 PSI or lower. From what I've seen in this thread and in documentation, this regulator appears to be functionally equivalent to those ones.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Even more direct is:
If the rated output pressure of the regulator were 60 psi or less, it would violate R75.

Also, yes, I see now that it is relieving. I was checking bullet points and going back to that tab I see I was searching for "releiv" rather than "reliev".:o

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Rick,
To meet the "relieving" specification, the regulator must vent any pressure that exceeds the set pressure on the output side of the regulator. If a larger actuator were to be pushed by a robot collision, the pressure forced back onto the working pressure system that would exceed 60 psi must vent to atmosphere the excess pressure.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I agree that the use of the word "working" is a bit confusing, but it is possible to have the outlet pressure range be 60 psi max while the regulator itself is rated for higher pressures. For example, the Norgren R07-100-RNEA (recommended by the blue box) has an outlet pressure adjustment range of 5-50 psig but a maximum pressure of 300 psig.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

FIRST has provided guidance to the LRI's that R77-I means that the published specifications of the regulator must indicate that its outlet pressure range is adjustable only up to 60 psi or less. Unfortunately, we didn't receive this guidance in time to pass it on to teams prior to Stop Build Day.

This would make the regulator linked in the OP as well as the inline regulator linked by Martin417 illegal. We did provide feedback that the requirement wording is somewhat ambiguous - hopefully we will see this clarified in a Team Update.

Unfortunately, teams who interpreted the rule differently and used a regulator that doesn't meet the requirement of R77-I should make plans to switch it out for a legal regulator upon unbagging. The recommended Norgren R07-100-RNEA is currently in stock at AndyMark.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Katie,

If that were really the case, then both of the recommended regulators listed in the blue box as recommended would also be illegal as they both can be adjusted to provide a working pressure well above 60 psi.

Why would we want to force teams to use a regulator with a published rated pressure below 60 psi, and then have them set it above that rated pressure? Something doesn't make sense here.

The manual currently states

R77 I. Pressure regulators with a maximum outlet pressure of no more than 60 psi

R82 “Working” air pressure on the ROBOT must be no greater than 60 psi and must be provided through a single primary adjustable, relieving, pressure regulator. Norgren regulator P/N: R07-100-RNEA or Monnier P/N: 101-3002-1 recommended.

It doesn't say anything about a maximum published outlet pressure. It does list two recommended regulators, but doesn't say that teams must use these. The fact that it does say "Recommended" indicates that others are allowed.

The regulator posted by the OP is perfectly suitable for a FRC Robot. My employer uses these exact regulators on industrial applications without issue. In my mind, it’s legal according to the robot rules as currently written. If this rule does get changed, I would encourage whoever is making these changes or clarifications to defer to someone with more experience with pneumatics. Changing the rules now to force teams to replace a perfectly suitable pressure regulator is pointless and will cause nothing but grief for teams and inspectors alike.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I have to say this is one of those irritatingly ambiguous rules. The Norgen regulator provided in the KOP can be turned up higher than 60 PSI despite what it ratings say. One of the main reason that we use the KOP regulator is to avoid this trying to figure out what this rule means.

With the usual disclaimer about past years, when working as robot inspector, one of things we were asked to look for in the queuing line was the air pressure. Wasn't unusual to find the working pressure slightly over 60 PSI & occasionally substantially over. Easy to check for & easy to fix.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Tyler and Frank,

I don't disagree, and I brought up similar reasoning to FIRST. I thought I'd pass on what has been communicated to LRI's and provide an (admittedly inadequate) early warning that this interpretation may become official soon. I'd encourage you to use the channels available (Q&A and email to frcteams@usfirst.org) to get official clarification and provide your feedback to FIRST.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Thanks for your input Katie. I certainly am not trying to shoot the messenger. :]

But to be honest I rather have the ambiguous definition rather than a poorly (at least in my mind) thought out answer Q&A occasionally gives on these kind of questions.

I am solving it on my team's robot by using the recommended regulator. On the robots I inspect, I will follow my LRI's lead. One of the advantages of being a flunky inspector is I kick the hard questions to up to management.

As an aside. It is poor practice to specify parts like this that are going to be used at the top of their range. I always take the pressure from inexpensive regulators and small diameter, uncalibrated pressure gauges with a grain of salt anyway.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

So,

If I use the "recommended" regulator Norgren regulator P/N: R07-100-RNEA, does that mean I can use it outside its design range of 5-50 PSI and push it up to 60 PSI? Or am I limited to 50 PSI regardless of what the rules say?

What if I use the KOP regulator from a previous year's KOP? Are they legal? Is any of this going to be communicated to teams, or will most teams just be ruled illegal at inspection? Will the pit admin have a supply of legal regulators, or will teams just be told they must remove all pneumatics from their robot because no legal regulators are available?

Either there has been some miss-communication, or FIRST has royally screwed up. (again).

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

C'mon Martin. The graph for this regulator shows it going to 60 psi just like it always has.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Al,

If you read the data sheet for this regulator found here ( http://cdn.norgren.com/pdf/Mini_Gene...R07,%20R46.pdf ) It states...

Adjustment Ranges* Substitute
1 to 10 psig (0.1 to 0.7 bar) A
5 to 50 psig (0.3 to 3.5 bar) E
5 to 100 psig (0.3 to 7 bar) K
5 to 125 psig (0.3 to 8.6 bar) L


It also states at the bottom of the first page...

* Outlet pressure can be adjusted to pressures in excess of, and less than, those specified.
Do not use these units to control pressures outside of the specified ranges.


In practice, we all know this regulator works just fine for FRC applications, along with many other suitable regulators as well, but according to this, we really should be recommending R07-100-RNKA. Thats probably a big part of why teams have a hard time keeping that particular regulator set to exactly 60psi.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I am not sure what graph you are referring to Al. This is the only spec sheet I have found, and it only has a graph for flow characteristics of a 1/4" inlet 5-100 PSI version.

The 100-RNEA from the part number means that this one is a 1/8" port standard, Relieving, non-gauge, PTF threaded, regulator, adjustable from 5 to 50 PSI. There is also a note that states: I don't think it could be more clear.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I am familiar with gas pressure regulators, having designed (and hold patents for) several. I would never recommend using a regulator at or near the extremes of its adjustment range, much less above it. An adjustable regulator works best near the middle of its adjustment range, and its performance is worst at the extremes.

If I was specifying an adjustable regulator for use at 60 PSI, I would specify one that had 60 PSI as the middle of its adjustment range, 0-120, 40-80, 30-90, etc.

I would never want to use one that had 60 PSI as its extreme setting, or worse above its extreme setting.

I am not sure what the goal is here, unless they are worried about a team cheating by changing the pressure on the field.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I, too have expansive experience with fluid regulators, both air and paint solvent and 100% agree with Martin on this.

We are using the Automation Direct regulator and it performs MUCH better than the Norgren regulator. It's specifications meet all the FRC rules, from our interpretation and past enforcement of this rule.

If the Inspectors want clarification, then they should seek it from FIRST and be clear in their intentions of calling the rule.

Al,

I think it is prudent if you make an actual ruling on this specific regulator. Right now, 1296 is using it in Palmetto and passed inspection. This regulator was used last year without incident. Can you please lead the way in reasonableness and urge for extreme clarification on this? You have always been extremely reasonable when dealing with teams and clarification on this pretty simple issue seams like it should be a no brainer.

Thanks,
Paul

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Paul,
I am simply referring to a part that has been either recommended or required for many years (at least to 2010). Why is everyone so opposed to using a tried and true device? The rules have not changed that much, using nearly identical language...

R82 “Working” air pressure on the ROBOT must be no greater than 60 psi and must be provided through a single primary adjustable, relieving, pressure regulator.

Norgren regulator P/N: R07-100-RNEA or Monnier P/N: 101-3002-1 recommended.

Not "required".

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Al, I think Paul wants a clear cut answer on weather a regulator like this one (http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...Series)/AR-213) is legal. I don't think anyone is trying to prevent teams from using the Norgen regulator.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

As Paul stated, we are currently competing with the tiny regulator from automation direct, we used it because it is very small, light, and cheap.

My brother Kellen used these last year as well with 1746, they are a proven technology and I enjoy the benefits and do not see why anyone would use anything else.

Actually, pulled the catapult off yesterday, so there are no pneumatics on the Bot, but it did pass inspection.
-Aren

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

We chose the Automation Direct one because it has an integrated gauge. In the beginning of the season, you could not get the white gauge from AndyMark, so we went looking somewhere else. Now that gauge is in stock. Also, it seems the gauge needle breaks for some reason in the white or norgen gauge, we've had several problems with the gauges not the regulator. So, like about 1/2 the people on this thread is seemed to us it was a legal device, didn't even think twice about it, we printed the spec sheet and have it in the same book as the robot bag and tag form ready to show the inspectors. That was why we went looking at something else.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Al,

You asked a direct question about the Norgren valve and I will answer it.

we have had terrible hysteresis problems with that valve and it is mostly related to it being used at the extreme of its working envelope.

Also, for this season the fact that the Automation Direct valve is so small is a huge bonus.

Paul

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I'm inclined to continue using the past interpretation of the rule to resolve the Norgren issue in favour of legality. Since a Norgren R07-100-RNEA regulator can frequently¹ be adjusted above 50 lb/in² (the manufacturer's operating limit²) and even above 60 lb/in² (the R77-I limit) using the provided control knob, and FIRST should know this, I would interpret the "maximum outlet pressure" to mean the maximum non-transient pressure at the outlet given a certain user-adjusted setting, rather than the manufacturer's published operating limits or proof limits. This also permits R75 to be read without conflict: the "working pressure" referenced there should be interpreted in terms of the possible range of input pressures, not the adjustment range of the outlet.

Using that logic, the AutomationDirect valve, the Nitra AR-213 is also legal. For R77-I, you must adjust its outlet to 60 lb/in² or less, and the datasheet states this is possible. For R75, the "working pressure" at the inlet should be no more than 145 lb/in² if like the Norgren, you may operate it in excess of recommendations, or no more than 130 lb/in² if you must stay within the manufacturer's range. Either figure satisfies R75.

Also, for anyone concerned about unsafe failure of the regulator, Nitra conveniently provides proof limits: below 215 lb/in², you should not expect the regulator to fail catastrophically.

For better or worse, guidance provided to LRIs is not inherently a rule, and cannot be enforced.

¹I don't know what the production variation is on the physical limit of adjustment, so perhaps I'm relying on outliers to reach that impression.
² For regular customers at least. I seem to recall, but can't document, a Q&A from the early 2000s alluding to Norgren telling FIRST that operating this regulator up to 60 lb/in² was acceptable.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Has anybody submitted a Q&A on this topic? Would be nice to get clarification before the next event.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

It might be good to point out to the Q&A people that the recommended regulator can be adjusted to above 60 PSI.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Ya, the original question was quite a bit longer and pointed out all the important details touched on in this thread. There is a character limit on q and a's that made adding more details impossible though.

I could have linked this thread, but I suspect the deciding parties are already aware of whats been stated here.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Yeah I've been trying to get them to remove or at least liberally increase the character limit for a couple years. I think they made it a bit larger last year but still not good enough. VEX Q&A forum is still better at this, they can post photos and things to help communicate their questions.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Q & A has spoken with much appreciated clarity.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

And that just made inspecting pneumatic systems a lot easier than it was looking over the past week!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Indeed. This was a smart answer fueled by common sense on the part of the GDC. Definitely helpful to teams and volunteers alike.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Once again the GDC under Frank Merrick's leadership is the most professional and most reasonable during all my years of participating in FRC.

The practical and team centric approach that FRC has been taking during the "Frank Era" of FRC is very much appreciated.

What a courteous and professional response.

Paul

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Are there any other 'less used but legal' pneumatics components that Automation Direct sells? We have a ton of old dials, regulators, brass fittings, etc. and I'd like to know some of the parts you guys have found to be better for FRC applications. Thanks for posting this to the Q&A!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

100% agreed. Thanks also to all of the professional comments in this thread which helped to provide well-reasoned technical insight. This is a great update which benefits teams, RI's and LRI's. Now we can go back to worrying about more exciting things like bumpers and bagging two "robots." :)

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Great news! We used the setup below for our robot last year and really liked it compared to massive regulators involving brass and large gauges.



Regulator

Pressure Gauge

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Inline regulators and gauges could be useful if you need weight or space.

Quick exhaust valves are legal for the first time this year.

3 Way exhaust valves are also legal this year for closing off sections of pneumatics

Not from automation direct but McMaster and other sources carry tiny gauges (paintball sized) that are lighter. You can also get aluminum and plastic manifolds as well.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

We have both these products on our competition robot and are excited to compete with them next week!

Thanks FIRST for the common sense ruling on this matter!

-Mike

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

If using these, just remember that you still must meet R89:

Does anyone have an example of a useful application for the 3-way exhaust valve?

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

A quick exhaust valve is not covered by that rule, because it is not a pressure vent plug. A quick exhaust valve is a three port valve that passe air from one port to another port in one direction, but to an exhaust port in the other direction.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

The inline pressure regulators linked in this thread are super cool.

The literature says that they contain "a built-in relief valve to exhaust over-pressure." What determines the relief set pressure? Is it a function of the set pressure of the regulator, or is it constant?

Genuinely interested (not trying for a gotcha!) in understanding how this device meets the intent of R82.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Sorry, I was referring to the 3-way valve that has a knob, Allen's third link. Since it only vents air from one direction, it seems there could potentially be an improper use where it would isolate a section from the vent plug which would then violate R89. Although maybe in order to get this you'd need to connect it "backwards" and it would then be venting all of the time, so it practice it couldn't really be used incorrectly. I'm just curious if anyone has found a useful application for these.

I agree that the quick exhaust valves are a nice way to vent a cylinder without needing to push air back through the solenoid.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

It means it's a relieving valve, if you were to set it to 60psi and one of your cylinders that is extended is then compressed by an external force that would increase the system pressure downstream of the regulator to > 60psi this regulator will exhaust pressure maintaining the system at 60psi downstream from it.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

The 3 way exhaust valves are useful for isolating a system during maintenance etc. They aren't very useful during a match in my opinion but I could be wrong. You could have a 3 way exhaust valve in front of the solenoids you use to fire a pneumatic catapult. When turned closed the air going to the catapult would be exhausted and the rest of the system would still function but the catapult would be disabled.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

The relief feature is based on the set pressure so it completely meets the definition of the rule. If you take a large pneumatic cylinder downstream that is extended and then manually push it back, if the regulator did not exhaust then the regulated pressure will go beyond set pressure.

The exhaust feature is required to be legal. That is why many of us already thought the regulator was legal. This q&a answer confirms it is legal.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

A quick exhaust valve is however a check valve so it must be used in a way that the system is able to satisfy R89.

Another useful item that AutomationDirect sales that not enough teams use is 1/4" push connect plugs.
Very useful for closing off solenoids and things. Much easier then using a T fitting and a loop of tube like some teams do.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Yes, I understand that's the desired function of the valve. With only the Nitra docs as a resource, I couldn't convince myself that the valve actually functions that way. (One concern I had is that the Nitra docs don't use the ISO symbol for a relieving regulator, but the Norgen docs do.) Glad to hear that, based on your experience, the device operates the same way that a "pressure relieving regulator" is generally understood to work.

What a relief, huh?

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I'm not sure you are thinking of the correct valve. I don't see a way to use a quick exhaust to isolate anything. The advantage of the quick exhaust is to allow the air to vent freely in one direction so it doesn't have to go all the way back to, and then through, the valve. That way a cylinder can act much more quickly. If you were using a cylinder as a pusher or punch for the ball, you could use a quick exhaust on the rod side of the cylinder. That way, when you pressurize the retract (rod side) port, the cylinder would retract, and when you pressurize the extend side, the cylinder would extend, but you would not have to force the air from the rod side all the way back through the tubing to the control valve, instead it could exhaust right there at the cylinder.

Edit: here is a good example.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

It's only a check valve if you plug the exhaust port. You could also plug any other port on the system and violate the rules by trapping air.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

A easy way to tell if a regulator is self relieving (FRC Legal) is on a system with no leaks, a self relieving regulator will decrease the low side pressure when backed off. A non relieving regulator will not.

We used the little AD regulators and quick exhaust valves on an off season project. Cool stuff.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

The nitra regulator is actually a metal works regulator (or at least marketed as metal works). I have used the metal works variety since 2014,. they are for sure relieving. I used them on the 3309 's 2014 robot in the intake to relieve air from impacts in addition to running the intake at lower pressure.
the metal works documents are a lot better with their symbols but not perfect:
http://www.metalwork.org/pdf/04_NPT_...A_20_09_13.pdf

I have not noticed a difference from the nitra and metal work samples I have now.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

B'dmp'bmp'psssh.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I'm not talking about a quick exhaust valve in this comment, I'm talking about a 3-way exhausting valve, part H. of rule R77. Such as this
It's a check valve no mater how you plumb it, it's only legal to use it if you don't plug the exhaust port. The rule that allows quick exhaust valves like this to be used is
The quick exhaust mechanism is inherently a check valve.

Do you think a different part of R77 applies to quick exhaust valves?

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

... and as a friendly reminder - look in your KOP for the Automation Direct Voucher instructions ( or go here).

It's valid through Championships (April 30th, actually).

You can order anything you want from Automation Direct's 20,000 part inventory using the $30 voucher. Pneumatics, crimp lugs, tools, safety glasses, sensors/encoders, pulleys/belts/shaft couplers, etc.

And since most of the pneumatic parts mentioned are under $30, well ... you do the math.

Shipping is a flat $6 (not included in the voucher), but if you purchase $49 worth of stuff beyond the Voucher, Shipping s FREE via Fed-ex 2-day. We have Canadian and California teams tell us they get stuff faster from ADC than if they order from local suppliers!

We are pushing this because the more teams use it, the more we will be able to influence next years contribution to FIRST ...

So consider this a gentle nudge to get the word out ... Thanks!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I can never get this voucher to work for my team. I think because there is some wacky bug when I login as my company Automation Direct account, it doesn't accept the voucher or something. Is there a clear process for how to use the voucher and if you can login with an existing Automation Direct account? Or should a setup a SEPARATE AD account to use the voucher?

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Chris,

I had to use a separate, personal account and it worked fine.

Paul

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

The voucher instructions are here:

http://www.firstinspires.org/node/5621

The voucher should work with any account. PM me with your team number and AutomationDirect account number if you continue to have issues...

Chip

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

What are your experiences with the in line solenoids from Metal Work, also, did you use them direct as the supplier or was their another method of purchase. Thanks.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Woot, Woot!!!

A BIG THANKS TO FIRST for clarifying the rules to 'officially' allow the use of our excellent (and super lightweight) regulator!

To celebrate, AutomationDirect would like to give way 10 sets of the regulator and matching gauge to 10 deserving FRC teams:

PRU14 REGULATOR 15-120 PSI 1/4in TUBE CONNECTIONS INLINE $20.25
PGU14 PRESSURE GAUGE 0-170 PSI 1/4in TUBE CONNECTIONS INLINE $17.75


So, the first 10 teams to tell us the following three things (in this thread) will win the parts:

1. How much weight could these parts save on your robot? Be as exact as possible, don’t forget the brass fittings that are no longer needed. We list the ‘packaged weight’ of the two parts above at 0.1lbs each – but I expect there is some rounding error there – maybe someone here on CD can help with a more exact figure??

2. What other AutomationDirect parts have you used on an FRC Robot (this year or previous)? Please include a link to the part on our webstore.

3. Your shipping address (if you are uncomfortable posting this publicly – you can PM me)


Please note that IF you haven’t used your AutomationDirect $30 voucher yet (instructions are here) – THEN you could actually purchase this same pair of parts for only $8 plus shipping. See Rick’s post above to learn how to qualify for our FREE two-day FedEx shipping.

And note that ALL voucher orders include a FREE tubing cutter… great for getting a clean, square cut on your pneumatic tubing, and preventing leaks!

THANKS AGAIN FIRST!

Chip

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1. We are saving ~ .6 lbs by using two PGU14 and one PRU14. Even more important, we are saving lots of space with these parts. Thank you!

2. We are using the "U" shaped adapters to connect the above regulators and gauges into a tight block. TU14

We also use tube from automation direct (both 1/4" for typical runs and 5/32" tubing for runs that require a smaller bend radius)

We also use a myriad of push to connect fittings from Automation Direct

Automation Direct is one of our go-to suppliers, we probably spend $300-$500 on Automation Direct products annually.

3. I'll PM you address.

Thanks!

-Mike

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

After further review of the rules, I don't believe that a quick exhaust valve is legal this year. It has been ruled illegal in the past in Q&A, and I don't see any explicit allowance for it this year. I was basing my assumption of legality on your earlier post.

A quick exhaust valve is an assembly of parts, one of which is a check valve, but while it contains a check valve, it is not a check valve, any more than a pneumatic cylinder is a piston, or a car is a transmission.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

R77 is a little ambiguous when it comes to quick exhaust valves. A reasonable read of R77-H would allow them. R77-G specifically allows check valves as long as the high pressure vent will complete exhaust the system.

As an inspector, absent guidance from my LRI, I would allow them.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I am an LRI and I'm saying that R77 G was put in place to allow quick exhaust valves. I agree the wording isn't perfect but that was the intent of the rule to my knowledge and how I will be enforcing it.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1. We would save around ~.8 lbs removing a norgen regulator, two gauges, and several brass T fittings.

2. We use Automation direct clear tubing,
Several push connect fittings, we always you your push connect plugs. We have used your solenoids in the past and their is one mounted on our competition robot right now but may be changed, not sure yet. We have also used your cylinders before as well, very happy you all added STEP files for a lot more of your parts now, this is great for quickly testing in CAD before making purchases.

3. Allen Gregory
St. Agnes Academy
9000 Bellaire Blvd
Houston, TX, 77036

Thanks Automation Direct you all are awesome.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1. We could save approximately 1 pound by removing all of the brass on our antequated pneumatic setup...

2. We have been using these for our prototype shooter- high Cv solenoids that are super cheap compared to others we've used in the past. More air, MORE POWER!

1.0/AM-526 MANIFOLD 6-STATION FOR AVS-52 SERIES VALVES ALUM
4.0/AM-52BP BLANKING PLATE FOR AM-52 SERIES MANIFOLDS STEEL
6.0/AVS-5211-24D VALVE 4-WAY 2-POS Cv=0.78 24VDC 1/8in FNPT SPOOL SGL-SOL ALUM
3.0/AVS-5221-24D VALVE 4-WAY 2-POS Cv=0.78 24VDC 1/8in FNPT SPOOL DBL-SOL ALUM


3. I will PM you!


-Brando

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1.We would save 1.2 lbs as we are running a 3 pressure system with 2 regulators.

2. We have been buying all of our quick connect tubing fittings from automation direct because they are cheaper and lighter than the ones from mcmaster

3. I'll PM you

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Chip,

1. We'll save around 0.5lb. The smaller size is just as important and may allow for some minor reconfiguration of the pneumatic components and shortening of tubes, which would be nice.
2. We're expecting a few pneumatic cylinders to arrive in the mail today from AD...
3. Will PM you an address.

Thanks AD!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1. This year we'll be saving at least 1lbs thanks to using the Automation Direct Components.

2. We currently have the AR-213 on both our competition robot and the practice bot, and we have some PRU14 and PGU14 downstream to regulate our intake actuation.

3. Will PM you the Address.

Thanks!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Chip,

1. We'll be saving about 0.7lbs, but a LOT of space. We're also using a bunch of heavy brass connectors in this area of the robot.

2. We've actually been using more sensors from AD than pneumatic components. Specifically: http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/...es)/QMRB-0N-0A

3. I'll PM you!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1. We'll save around 0.5 lbs in brass and other fittings.
2. We've not used AD parts before but are definitely planning on using more of them in the future; the pricing and options are great! We were about to place an order when you posted this.
3. Will PM you.

Thanks so much AD for your contributions to the FIRST community and an outstanding pneumatic selection!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

1) We'll save ~1lb using these components but like the others have stated, the space is just as big if not even more important then the weight!

2) PLUG14, PU14YEL100, PU14RED100, TC-12

3)Will PM

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Hello Chip,

1. We will save around .6 lbs switching to these pneumatic components
2. We have used these solenoids for higher flow rates on our pneumatic shooter in 2014: AVS-5211-24D and these other components TU14, UT14, UY14, HVU14-2.
3. Will PM you. Thanks!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Hey Chip!

1. Automation Direct parts saved us about 1/2 pound. We might swap over to the small regulator too.

2. We used the pressure gauge. We also used 3/4" x 10" stroke cylinders for our catapult and a 7/16" bore x 2" for our boulder ejection for low goal. The vent plug works great as well.

3. Will PM address :D

Thanks again to Automation Direct!
Nate

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Good Afternoon Chip

1) We will save about 1lb using the suggested parts.
2)We have been buying all of our quick connect tubing fittings from automation direct for the past 2 years because they are cheaper and lighter than the ones from McMaster. In addition we have been buying all our gauges the past couple years from automation direct.
3) 101 Groton Long Point Rd. Groton, CT 06340

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

OK, I count 12 replies to the contest at this point - I'm going to cut it off here.

I have names and addresses for the free parts shipping to: FRC #1678, FRC #3847, FRC #0125, FRC #2848, FRC #0254, FRC #0558, FRC #5188, FRC #0294, FRC #0271, FRC #0330, FRC #2052, FRC #2168. Let me know if I missed anybody.

We will get the parts shipped tomorrow - teams should receive them next week.

But please note what I said about purchasing these parts WITH your AutomationDirect Voucher - it would only be $8 plus shipping.

Chip

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Then would you also allow these valves? They contain check valves, but one is a flow control valve, and one is a shuttle valve. There is no rule that specifically allows a flow control (unless it was in a previous year's KOP, and there were some) or a shuttle valve (yes, you could make one from two check valves and a tee). The rule says only the items listed below can be used, and I don't see a listing for quick exhaust valves, flow control valves, or shuttle valves. I am sure there are many other valve types that contain check valves that could be found as well.

I am not arguing against quick exhaust valves, I love them, and have had many application in FIRST where I would liked to have used them, but the way the rules are written, I don't see an interpretation that allows them. remember what the manual says about intent:

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

I would also like to apologize to those of you who were still discussing important FRC business here on this thread, I didn't mean to hijack it... Well Ok, maybe I did ;-) but I thought the main points had all been settled...

We offer quick exhaust valves too, if it is determined that they can be used!

Chip

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Do you have an example product page and specification sheet? I'm not familiar with either of these and would probably call Al or HQ at the event to get a ruling, from talking to HQ already I know that the quick exhaust valves are legal. (unless they decide to change what they have communicated to LRIs, which they can do like with the regulators)

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

The whole point of my argument is to try to eliminate poorly written rules. If the GDC wants to make quick exhaust valves legal, then they should add quick exhaust valves to the list of allowed pneumatic parts, not add check valves and believe that teams will read that as quick exhaust valves.

They say they don't want teams to try to figure out the intent, only look at exactly what is written. Under a strict interpretation, the rules say quick exhaust valves are not legal, but a LRI says "I know they are legal, that's what they meant". How is a team supposed to know what they meant? Why not be clear in the first place?

Edit: removed incorrect statements

I don't mean to be a stickler or PITA, but it is very important for the rules to be explicit and clear, with no ambiguity.


As for the two valve types I mentioned, here are some data sheets

Flow control

shuttle valve

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Maybe I'm missing something, but flow control valves are specifically listed as being allowed:

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

My bad, I missed that. the rest of my point still stands.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

On that you and I are in complete agreement. I got all bumpers banded for a little while a couple years ago because of the mission to make properly written rules. Looking at the shuttle valve you mentioned if it's plumbed in a way that meets the rules for check valves, I would allow it and seek further guidance from HQ/Al on the specific situation. In this case anyone can Q&A and ask specifically if quick exhaust valves are considered check valves by the GDC. I believe that they are and have been instructed to enforce it in that manner, if I was using one on my robot I'd probably ask in the Q&A just to be sure and have proof in case another RI or LRI doesn't see it the same way.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Q&A has consistently refused to rule a part legal unless it's recommended or mandated. You'll probably have better luck if you word the question to ask if the function of the part is consistent with a short list of rules, with reference to your part as an example of one that performs the function.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Here is the exact question and answer from (edit) 2014:

Which is the basis for my argument. They are still not included in the list of permitted items, but we are being told by a LRI that they are legal because check valves are now in the list.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

R77 was about the pressure switch last year; I presume the 2015 question was about R66 (F).

I just asked Q926:

I agree with Martin that the answer should be no. Check valves have two ports, QEVs have three. I don't see any way to plumb a check valve to make it into a QEV, either.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Sorry, the Q&A was from 2014, here is a link...

Look down for question Q34

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

For those who are following here but don't check the Q&A, this was not answered by close of business on Friday.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Just a quick response here and then I will be quiet for a couple of days again while traveling.

R77. H. Shutoff valves which relieve downstream pressure to atmosphere when closed (may also be known as 3-way or 3-way exhausting valves).

While these are now legal, they have not been allowed or legal in the past. Each manufacturer has a different name for them, (thank you marketing people) they are what I believe the discussion is about.
The Bimba part linked above is one of the devices that I believe influenced the addition of this rule. It is a 3-way valve in that air at one port is directed to another port to move the cylinder. When air is removed, the pressure in the cylinder is directed to atmosphere at the third port. The Bimba spec sheet gives an example of a method to move a double acting cylinder with a two way control valve and two of the linked valves.
Check valves have also been included in R77.G if and only if R89 can be satisfied. The Bimba device will exhaust all stored air when system pressure is removed.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Thank you Automation Direct for the free pneumatic components! With this and PDV, we've gotten nearly $100 of free, high quality components from AD just this season. Thank you!

-Mike

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Got our free gear as well! Thanks Automation Direct!

-Brando

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Team update 15 has completely settled the quick exhaust debate by properly updating the wording of R77 G. to include Check and Quick Exhaust Valves. Thank you GDC for taking the ambiguity out of this rule.

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Thanks again for the parts, they'll be on the next iteration of our machine!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

We received our free parts and will be ordering more shortly with our voucher! These parts are very high quality and we look forward to do business with you guys in the future, thanks Automation Direct!

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

We too received ours. Thanks Chip and Automation Direct!
Nate

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Anybody notice Q963? In the answer, the GDC states:
This doesn't fit any of the definitions or descriptions of check valves I've ever seen. Does anyone know of an item which meets this description and is sold as a check valve?

Re: Pneumatic Regulators from Automation Direct
 

Gus,
The valves asked in the question are sometimes called 'check valves' but vent to atmosphere when the pilot pressure is removed. They are actually "quick exhaust" valves or "three way" valves depending on manufacturer.