Defensive robots
 

What is your opinions on how effective the defensive robot will be in First Stronghold?

Re: Defensive robots
 

very effective, in my opinion a good defensive robot will be a tall robot that crosses 1 defense in auto, play defence all the game and then in the last 20 seconds leaves to capture the tower. big bonus if he can also climb.
A good defensive robot will guard his tower, and prevent the other alliance from capturing it.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Since there are so many low bar robots i think we will see the 2013 pool noodle blocksystem again. And i think for the elimination matches, the second pick is going to be a good defence Robot which possibly is able to climb.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Often, the best defense is a good offense so I would not be surprised to see a decent scoring robot taken over a good defender, if available. A defender can only do so much.

Re: Defensive robots
 

For the top alliances at an event you'll have 2 offensive robots that are able to breach and weaken the tower by themselves. There is only so much value added by adding a third robot to cycle for points. I think a shutdown defender will offer way more value especially considering the lower seeded alliances will need to pick 3 offensive robots to breach and weaken the tower, leaving better defensive options for the top.

A shutdown defender will probably be able to prevent 2 mid-level robots from capturing. That'll be the difference at a regional level I think.

Re: Defensive robots
 

How will you guard the tower to prevent capture? In the last 20 seconds it is best not to be in your alliance's courtyard.

With all the protected areas, a good defense is going to require good drivers that know the rules. Smart offensive drivers are going to make full use of the protected areas. Bad defense will rack up more foul points than they save.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I'm a little concerned how a match that contains only "low bar" robots able to breach defenses without hanging will be anywhere competitive. It's the luck of the draw in my humble opinion. We're finishing our robot to low bar, shoot the low goal, breach all the defenses, portcullis, and hang. So far we can do all and will finish our hanger this week. We wanted to do everything but probably will concentrate on doing several things well. I don't think that strategy will get us to the finals. Just have to convince my drivers to be aggressive....it's way out of my hands now as the coach. The team is driving this robot from design to finish. I'm just handling logistics. That's how it should be in my opinion.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Considering that most high shooters also seem to be going underneath the low bar, it will be easy to block shots with the right design. I can't state how many robots will be designed for this, but those that are designed like this will probably go into eliminations. After a team has two good high shooters and breach bots, a defensive robot would be a great option for the last member of their alliance.

Defensive drivers will have to be cautious though as to not incur penalties (of course, all drivers should be cautious regardless of their posistion on the field.) Pinning an opposing robot and pinning too soon may be very common penalties for a defensive bot. As well, defensive drivers must ensure they are out of the courtyard in the last 20 seconds, which I would not believe to be too much of an issue, as they would more than likely have a scaling device, due to the fact they would not be under the constraints of the low bar (meaning, depending on their design, they would have to raise their robot less or it will br easier).

A strong breach bot may fall back to defense after most of the opposing alliance's defenses have been damaged. This would occur more often if the breach bot could not score a high goal. I know that this will probably be our teams strategy if we are not needed to continue scoring goals or crossing defenses.

For example, an alliance may have a robot that can do the Low Bar, Cat B, and Cat D; a robot that can do Low Bar, Cat B, and Cheval; and a third robot that can do all defenses (or the vast majority to qualify as a breach bot). The breach bot would damage all the defensss the other two could not do, then play defense. As the other two robots went and scored goals, they would go over the defenses that they can, breaching all defenses, and scoring.

Strategies that utilize each robots' strengths and makes up for their weakness through collaboration will be the ones that succeed and win.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Problem is, you will not find many good offensive robots third round at districts. More likely than not, you're better off trying to neutralize one of their 'bots with your third pick than try to use the pick to outscore them.

If an alliance doesn't score the required 8 boulders (because their shots keep getting blocked and/or they keep getting hit out of aim), they can't Capture the Tower.

The key is to not draft bad defense, just like you wouldn't want to draft bad offense, or bad anything for that matter.

Re: Defensive robots
 

In some cases the least capable robot on the field can still be worth 35 points! Do you think it's in the best interest of an alliance to keep that robot in their own courtyard for over a third of the match? Half of the match? More?

Re: Defensive robots
 

This year a robot with a good drivetrain (i.e. cross B, D, and low bar defenses) and literally no other mechs can score 40 points over the course of the match. Cross in auto, damage the others in teleop, and challenge at the end, 10+25+5=40. However, if two of these robots are on an alliance, instead of 40+40=80 points, the sum total between the two is only 50 points, 5 more points for crossing another defense in auto instead of tele, and another challenge at the end. In this situation it makes sense to have one of the bots playing defense in the courtyard.

Re: Defensive robots
 

How will they be scoring 35 points?

Also, if the defensive robot could block 35 points from being scored, it would be effective. Also, a defensive robot could prevent the tower from being weakened, which would prevent it from being captured at the end of the match (which would prevent 25 points from being scored).

A robot that can only breach a few defenses is almost useless (provided they have no other feature). I know for certain one robot is capable of defeating ALL defenses. By having the robot that can only breach a few, focus on damaging defenses, after all defenses are done, the other breach bot will be left with nothing/little to do. Considering all points that could be scored by a robot that can do nothing can be scored by a breach bot, it will make much more sense strategically for the robot to do defense.

Consider:

Alliance A is composed of ROBOT A, ROBOT B, and ROBOT C
ROBOT A is a high scorer, which traverses the low bar multiple times.
ROBOT B is breach bot, which traverses all other defenses.
ROBOT C has little functionality.

ROBOT C should NOT breach defenses, as this can be covered by ROBOT B. If ROBOT C did breach defenses, ROBOT B may be left with nothing or little to do. Remember that you want your robots to be as efficient and be able to do as much of their abilities as they can. Why put a robot that doesn't focus on breaching on breaching?

Re: Defensive robots
 

All you need to be good at defense is a sheet of plywood along the width of your bot extending as high as possible. That and good drivers would be hard to beat honestly. Even if other teams stay on the defenses, ect, a 4'6" high wall is hard to launch over even with a little space between robots.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Our robot plans to have a set of arms at max height that can "lean over" an opposing robot to increase the effective blocking angle for short shooters. Hopefully this will make us more effective at defense than a purely inside-the-frame-perimeter defender.

Could we also get some advice driving defensively with mecanum wheels? We probably won't win any pushing matches, but we're hoping maneuverability will let us stay between a shooter and the high goal if they're moving around.

Re: Defensive robots
 

How effective will a good defensive robot be?

It depends on what the robot is trying to defend. A cycling bot that specializes in going under the low bar, taking boulders from the secret passage and shooting from a specific sweet spot will be easy to shut down - the defender really just has to plant itself in the scoring bot's path the tremendously shut down its scoring capacity.

An offensive bot that can shoot accurately from multiple locations on the courtyard becomes more challenging to defend. If said robot can fire very quickly upon arriving at one of several different shooting locations should be able to score despite the best efforts of a good defender. If that offensive robot can also cross multiple defenses will be nearly impossible to stop.

In lower level competitions, yes a good defender will often be of extreme value. However, as the competition gets stronger, the value of defense - and therefore the tactics - much change. I suspect that the best defenders at higher levels of play will primarily focus on taking boulders away from the offense: Picking up missed shots and returning them to the other courtyard (or scoring them); stealing boulders from the secret passage; etc.)

I don't see a tall-lumbering defensive specialist with minimal scoring ability doing well past district level competitions...I anticipate that the ideal defensive bot at Champs will be a quick low-bar cycler with a fantastic intake that can run interference on defense and win races to loose boulders.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Individual scoring potential is not directly tied to the value of the robot. A kitbot on the right alliance is worth at least 35 points, maybe even 40. While netting points by removing direct offensive value to indirect defensive value can quite literally be a zero sum exercise in theory, in practice that is not always the case.

Theory can give you a great strategy but it does not win a lot of matches by itself.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I think standard shoving and shot blocking defense will be effective all the way up to champs. At high levels though, I think stealing balls and feeding will be the most effective role for a third bot. Especially if the two main scoring robots shoot from the outerworks and are unlockable. Of course at champs a repeat of the 2013 championship alliance can happen where all three robots are just unblockable cycle shooters and they just outscore everyone every match.

Re: Defensive robots
 

A hard defensive robot better know the rules.
You can still get points from secret passage by playing defense, but you can lose points by playing defense too close to the outerworks.
I'm not an advocate for defense this year but it is certainly possible. However one thing that I over looked at first is that if a defensive robot finds itself where a robot plans on landing after a breach it could take some serious damage. Defensive robots need to be built so well this year its kinda ridiculous.
If you run hard defense then I'd imagine you would be tailored ONLY for defense and play as maybe a sapper of some sort.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I agree, it will be important to see how three robots work together in the offensive zone and to see if they end up being productive or just get in each other's way. That will dictate strategy in the elims - whether it is better to use three offensive bots or two offensive bots and one defensive bot.

Just comes down the effectiveness of the strategies, week 1 will decide this.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I think you will see by week 3 that there will be a hybrid bot that can be 4ft tall and be able to shoot high low and go under low bar....its easier than you think once you start to think outside the box.

As for good defense in the first two and a half weeks I think just shoving will be enough, a lot of teams will be straight shooters and not have a turret design so simply hitting the front corner of a robot will be sufficient enough. Thus saying that defense bot will have to be fast and agile.

In the weeks following it will be blocker sticks like on 1114 in aerial assist and pool noodles like ultimate accent.

We are in the works of being a hybrid bot for our first regional in Arizona week 2 I think after people see our design it will be on every robot.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Why week 3? I guarantee there will be a robot that fits your description week 1.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Yeah, I think this could be another year of lots of blocker sticks, especially on robots without low bar.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were implying that a kitbot would SCORE 35 points, not be worth 35 points. Kitbots can serve uses to an alliance if posistioned properly.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I don't think there will be a bot who is both offensive and defensive as well as a low bar bot.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Our robot is Low Bar capable, capable of crossing every defense and playing defense. We can only shoot towards the low goal currently, but may work on modifying it to a high goal shooter if we get that chance.

I gaurantee you there will be a team that will design a robot that can do (almost) everything; offense, defense and low bar capable. Those teams have ingenuity.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I disagree.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I cheat, I know there's one competing week 1.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Same

Re: Defensive robots
 

I think that some robots that were designed for Low Bar will be cheesecaked to have tall blockers if there are alot of teams that shoot high goal shots along a low trajectory from the "safe zone" of the outerworks.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I'm of the impression that "good defensive robots" will be rare. In fact, for the most part, I see defensive robots being a liability to an alliance rather than helpful. There are so many protected areas of the field that I think they will be of limited use. Furthermore, teams capable of operating a defensive strategy effectively are more likely to play offense (that is, good teams won't concentrate their efforts on building defensive robots).

Re: Defensive robots
 

blockers are overrated and will not be used effectively in this years game at high levels of play! Short robots can create devices called blocker blockers with their 15 inches. Even if blocking works blockers can not block in auto and they also can not block during the last 20 seconds. Blockers run a huge risk of penalties as well. As a coach I do not plan on having a robot blocking I would much prefer they jam up ball collection or protect the offensive threats on our alliance. A great third robot needs to score 7 in auto from the spy bot low goal and reach. During tele-op they play the neutral zone then cross one defense and get on the batter.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Now this, I could see happening for sure.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I don't ever remember this happening at competition. :rolleyes:

In all seriousness though I can see it too. With some of the crazy ball velocities, the cheesecake may have to be a little stiffer than a tacked on pool noodle.

Re: Defensive robots
 

You don't need to rob a ball of its full momentum, just deflect it off course.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Yes, with a pool noodle, it will easily do the job.
That high goal opening is just way too small to have any kind of deflection not be effective.

Re: Defensive robots
 

And then go pick it up and deliver it to your secret passage.

Re: Defensive robots
 

We tested defense with our kitbot and 2015 robot. The kitbot was geared to approximately twice the speed of our 2015 robot. In the videos you can see several times where the driver of our 2015 robot becomes overly aggressive and would have drawn a penalty. With a little coaching I think that this can be avoided. I also think that with a defensive robot in the courtyard it will be very hard to get a clean shot at the goal unless you are protected in the outerworks. We also noticed that the defensive robots could potentially trap against the batter robots who score low goals by blocking them in once they maneuver around the defender. The driver of the defensive robot will also have a much better view of the action which could also be a big advantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQcjMYkn0iM

Re: Defensive robots
 

In my experience the overlap in the Venn Diagram of "robot really only capable for defense" and "well coached" is virtually nonexistent.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I feel like defensive robots WILL be pivotal especially late in the season into Championships.

Re: Defensive robots
 

You didn't read the rules correctly :(

You might be thinking of the inverse of G26.

Also the existence of such a rule makes no logical sense. It would penalize two actions explicitly laid out in match logistics: crossing/scoring in autonomous, and challenging on the batter at the end.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Coming from being a pure defensive bot two years ago... my observations on 2016.

Actual blocking of shots is hard when you are having to defend multiple goals. As in 2014 and 2016. (Low and High)

Of course in that game we had much higher than 54" extension height since at 76" but could not be as wide since it had to be in that cylinder so it was thin.

But very similar with needing to defend high and low goals.

We had great drivers and we were very effective at low goal blocking and to an extent high goal and got completely hammered in the process (scars) , we were among the most durable bots at the worlds that year, even with that parts got bent and broken.... I fear for this year low bots that are low goal scorers only against a dedicated durable defensive bot. I have a feeling many low bots are nearly as durable" like we were and will get hammered coming out of batter with hardly any vision to drive on that far side of field. I can see bots that do low goal getting beaten up by a defender legitimately and without getting fouls.

In 2014, we were not as effective as blocking was the high goal. When faced with three offensive bots there was no possible way to fully defend the high goals we were maybe blocking average of 1 shot a game., even with help from other two bots sometimes harassing the other alliance. Most shots of on our alliance of course scored high. I think we were exactly a 54" high metal rectangle with a high goal extension and side arms to block low goal. So similar in design to a defensive bot this year using 15" extensions...we were rookies and our bot was kitbot slow. Especially at worlds every single bot was faster it seemed we got killed. We did well ended up 23/60 in regional and killed in the worlds.

Which brings me to my point, most defensive bots this year IMO will be slower bots that a rookie team entered, they like us made the calculated decision to be different. I only saw one high end defensive bot in St Louis in 2014 that was marginally more effective than us and still ended up lower ranked.

I think this year we may see some defense but as long as teams divide up the offensive attack that bot cannot defend all three. I also suspect in the heat of defending there will be a very high chance of fouling as that bot is defending not 4 feet away but most likely 12-13 feet away and its hard to judge robots when their bumper clear the outer works. A couple fouls and the defensive strategy goes down the tubes as fouls are killer, forcing for most less aggressive play and allowing high shots from just past outer works.

So in summary I think defense will be played sparingly and also be somewhat ineffective like in 2014, I see a lot of similarities when it comes to defense. Its a very similar each year to defend low and high only or try to score t...most teams will pick not so true (non-scoring) defenders will be rare.

Plus the fact you can only have one bot defend so no help also is a difficult decision for an alliance to commit to that strategy of trying to prevent RP/points rather than earn RP/points and winning the game for another.

Going to be interesting to say the least...I'll be looking for defensive bots to see how they do this year.

I think the real defense issues for most teams will be simply lack of vision/automation. Its hard to score with all those defenses obscuring the drivers view of primary goals, unless you have a highly accurate semi/fully automated shooter

Re: Defensive robots
 

Lets take an alliance with 2 offensive bots and 1 defender, facing an alliance with 3 offensive bots.
the alliance with the 2 offensive bots will always have 2 bots ready to shoot without anyone trying to stop them.
the alliance with the 3 bots will have 3 bots trying to score while 1 bot is trying to prevent them from doing it, it means 4 robots on less than 1/3 field when 3 of them are trying to find a good spot to score and 1 is trying to stop them, it will be very messy and all the 3 robots will make less points, very hard to the drivers and I think that in this case the 2 offensive robots alliance will win.

Re: Defensive robots
 

That was not the case in 2014 so I don't believe it to be the case in 2016..especially at higher levels of bots.

Re: Defensive robots
 

2014's scoring system was such that you needed 3 assists in order to be competitive at high levels. This year isn't comparable in that regard.

Re: Defensive robots
 

With limited time in the game I do not see how a defensive bot shifts the odds in their alliance's favor overall. There are 16-18 scoring plays that either involve crossing a defense twice or cycling a SINGLE ball. All in 135 seconds. For either ranking or huge elimination points.

With only two bots that puts cycle times in into the danger zone to do 16-18 plays with 16 single actions that take 8.43 seconds average for one bot to complete 16.43 seconds for two bots 25.31 seconds for three bots working together.

16.43 average cycle is asking a lot of two bots to either cross a defense twice -or obtain a single boulder (perhaps from opponents castle location to your secret passage) and successfully deliver a boulder accurately to weaken the opponents castle again. OF course if every bot every time crossed and shot it would be more doable but still very difficult to ensure it happens every time with one bot let alone all three bots.

Also consider last 20 seconds is endgame time not a lot of scoring going on as teams are scrambling to get on batter and climb.

Its the same as 2014 just different, more to do and no obvious multiplier action, more single actions that all take time and I think a well coordinated team of 3 beats 2 and a defender...we'll see.

Re: Defensive robots
 

A defensive robot can steal 1 ball and score it to the low goal when coming in the last 20 secs, so it leaves the 2 other robots to score 7 balls, a defnsive robot can cross 1 defense in auto and then when he comes in the last 20 seconds he can cross it again and destroy it, that leaves the other 2 robots to cross twice 3 more defenses, lets say that each can cross 1 time in auto and only 1 robot can score the ball in auto. now you have 2 robots that need to cross defenses 4 times and score 6 balls, lets give them 15 seconds to capture, that leaves them with 2 mins to do 10 tasks, 5 tasks per robot, 24 secs for each task, not so hard when no one plays defence on you and you have enough place to manipulate.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I predict that the winning alliances of 80% of the regionals will have a robot playing defense in the courtyard for at least 1 minute of matches they win. The only exceptions will be teams that somehow get three efficient scorers that can all shoot quickly from safe zone, and know they can outscore the other team. It's to easy for a robot that can't score efficiently to switch to defense and then disrupt the other team by bumping them as they shoot. Most teams shooting high goal will take a second or more to line up, which will make them very susceptible to being defended. Robots that aren't shooting from the safe zone will take a beating as they attempt to line up and shoot. Shooting high goal from the batter is worse, as a defender can simply bump your backend sideways as you line up to shoot and then slow you in retrieving your missed shots, maybe possibly depositing the boulders in the secret passage to prevent you from ever retrieving the boulders. Has there been any clarification on whether a defender can park behind a robot that has driven into the batter? A defender could effectively delay that robot indefinitely if legal. Not a bad tradeoff if the robot you block in is the other teams high scorer.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Refer to Q733 for clarification.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I WOULD argue that a defensive bot is a positive inclusion for an alliance, IF the game was all about getting the win. If this game were 2014 or 2013 style of qualification point acquisition, I'd take a defensive robot in a heartbeat.

The problem is that this game isn't 0-sum. In fact, some matches could be concievably played where the LOOSER makes just as many qualification points than some other match't WINNER.

That's important.

That means that there is a direct, positive incentive for a robot to play offense, although sometimes ineffectively, over defense. Sure, 2 robots on paper might be able to breach by themselves, and only need robot 3 to capture the tower, and, yes, I anticipate that such may certainly be the scenario at eliminations or championships. But, the fact of the matter is, things go wrong. You get stuck due to a bad angle and terrible visibility. Your robot just won't move. The opposing alliance sent a robot just to guard you. Sum it all up, and there's a good chance that at least 1 of the 2 offensive robots you planned on breaching with can't function fully. Should that happen, I'd much rather be able to have that robot that can at least get me that one qual. point for breaching over a defensive bot that only propels us to a 0-QP match.

Even in elims, the amount of points for a breach is s pretty darn big number, and given the high goal is so small, a robot with a strong drive train that can help breach (and maybe have a pool noodle) may be almost all you need.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I don't really want to talk that much about my teams strategy since we haven't finalized it but we were thinking for our robot we could cross all of the defenses (including low bar), then also shuttle balls back and forth in the process so a taller, more accurate shooter could shoot quicker and not have to traverse the defenses to get another ball. We designed our robot to shoot high goal but it may not be as effective as a taller shooter.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I agree with our strategy and it may be something that we do. As we breach defenses, we'll possibly carry a boulder over; and if the situation is safe (the opposing alliance can't steal our boulder), we can drop it for an accurate high shooter. We could also just go from the secret passage, through the low bar, and drop for a teamate. This would help decrease cycle times for high shooters and utilize more points. Of course, our robot could also do defense. Defense is a necessity, but strategies may exist without them. How functional they will be I'm unsure of, but with proper execution, any strategy can be a threat.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Care to provide a quote? Q733 is not included in the last Q&A PDF.

Re: Defensive robots
 

My point that is that the energy the boulder is carrying is related to the effectiveness of a blocker. We had a pretty significant interference in practice the other day and still hit a shot. A small action camera, heavier than a GoPro went flying across the room after being ripped off a mount and the ball still hit its target.

We attached PVC and strung across a t-shirt in 2013 and it worked pretty well as a deterrent, but that shooting position was pretty concrete. A team capable of shooting from the defenses from any position 1-5 can gain an advantage in that way. Also, if you can shoot quickly, it makes it harder. A robot that pops across and rips a ball off at the goal presents a scary defensive situation, because you have to basically guess at being out of range for penalties.

1747 has a pretty strong defensive legacy. As someone who spent a huge amount of time coaching what a number of people have observed as very clean, effective defense I can honestly say defending a shooting robot crossing the defense presents one of the largest defensive penalty risks we've ever seen.

But that's just my 2 cents.

Re: Defensive robots
 

A good question here now is what happens when the opposing alliance puts a team out of the 15" max extension. I dont think the answer is clear cut and dry unless I missed a rule. In the past, that was a subjective call.
Also, I know all about the defensive history. That's why I chose you in 2013.:)

Re: Defensive robots
 

I think that defensive robots might be a good third robot on an alliance, but that overall, the amount of good shooter robots will be very limited at most regionals. What this means is that a defensive robot may be a better last pick, just because every team's priority could theoretically be to get a good shooter on their alliance, just because of the points potential. I could be totally wrong here. I think we'll just have to wait and see.

Re: Defensive robots
 

This whole line of questioning is leading more towards a Q&A involving robots on top of other robots, which may be a startlingly common occurrence with all the short robots and the ready-made ramp that is the CDF. That is assuming someone decides to take the interference penalty(s) in trade for preventing a breach, which at some levels of play might be a possibility.

*edit* Also, Glenn, I know you know the defensive history. That sentence was for everyone else's benefit. *edit*

Re: Defensive robots
 

haha...that's why our robot will have a "steel top" (thin) and a steel glacis plate (thicker but not too thick for weight limits with rhino drive) ala my old trusty M1A2. This game promises to be more rough and tumble this year. I'm cool with it. The team is looking forward to it as well. We're stoked for the competition to begin!

Re: Defensive robots
 

"The #1 factor in causing robots to end up on other robots is........"
I thought about this for awhile because of what happened in 2010. The key is bumper placement, and it is a critical factor especially with defense. We made sure our bumpers were..:rolleyes:

Re: Defensive robots
 

Sure.

So, parking behind an opposing robot on the batter is not aganst the rules, but you must follow all rules related to pinning.

Re: Defensive robots
 

G43 is pretty clear. If your bumpers are in the outerworks, you are considered to be transversing. You can use an appendage to force a blocking robot back. You cannot use an appendage to get yourself closer to goal while being protected by being in the outer works. Although the defensive robot being that close to a robot in the outer works is risky business.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Would anyone who has contributed to this thread be willing to agree with the statement...
"If you compare an offensive robot with perfect cycles and play to a defensive robot with perfect cycles and play the defensive robot has a higher rate of scoring."

???

Re: Defensive robots
 

No, too many variable regarding other robots.


I think there is no "always preffered robot." A perfect defense bot will be neither always worse nor always better than a perfect high-shooting offensive robot. There are too many variables regarding alliance members, opposing alliances, risk, and even circumstances and opportunities that a robot can do in game. Either one can be incredibly strong. A defensive robot becomes more powerful the more high shooter robots the other alliance has. An offensve robot becomes more powerful if there is a lack of defense and great boulder plays by an alliance. Much like picking defenses that an opposing alliance struggles with, a team could pick robots that the opposing alliance struggles with controlling.

Re: Defensive robots
 

You sure? The way I am reading the rules says that between a defensive robot running a 5 point cycle and an offensive robot running a 5 point cycle, the defensive robot will always have a shorter cycle even if the offensive robot runs a perfect cycle.

Re: Defensive robots
 

By defensive robot, are you referring to a robot that blocks and interferes with opposing robots in the defensive robots alliance's courtyard?

Or a robot that crosses all defenses?

I was referring to the first.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I was referring to the first.

Re: Defensive robots
 

Okay, confusing myself.

While a defensive robot can stop the opposing alliance from scoring five points, it will more than often not stop, but delay a goal. This means the opposing alliance would still score, just their cycles would be slowed. If there were two opposing high shooters (though, I'd say this seems rare), then the defensive robot would be able to slow down two opposing robots. I'd say in a one v one, the high shooter, depending on it's accuracy and if the oppossing alliance also has a defensive robot, would be more worthwile. While with two high shooters or a very inaccurate shooter, a defensive robot would be more worthwile. I don't beleive you can say that for your situation, there will be a garunteed one that is more effective/worthwile without knowing more context of the game.

Re: Defensive robots
 

I think defensive bots will always have a powerful place within an alliance, at least at district level play.

At the district events (that I have participated in anyway) the field is not usually not deep enough to pick up a super capable third bot and because denying points to your opponent is the same as scoring points (pretty much), it is usually more worthwhile to find a second pick robot that can perform moderately well at a couple of tasks but has a strong defense game compared to a robot that can preform a little better at those same tasks but has no defensive game.

That's my two cents anyway :)