A moment of silence please
 

this forum is so much fun and i really get a lot of laughs from ya'll-thanks so much for that.
....but i hope that each of you will take a moment tomorrow and remember those who lost their lives on September 11, 2001. and remember those left behind for they are really feeling the emptiness that you get when you lose a loved one.

peace
b

Salute to The Pledge
 

I PLEDGE ALLEGIANCE
TO THE FLAG
OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
AND TO THE REPUBLIC
FOR WHICH IT STANDS
ONE NATION
UNDERGOD
INDIVISIBLE
WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTICE FOR ALL

see this too.

Absolutely, and also the members of the Peace Corps.

Please, don't forget the other troops who're subverting governments, participating in our very own propagandized terrorism, killing innocent people, and training the future generations of terrorists.

Thank you for sharing that link Sanddrag. That was very thoughtful.

Good point from the post just before mine as well. It's hard to see all sides when we are grieving. But today is to remember our fallen loved ones. I lost my neighbor a year ago today when his plane out of Boston slammed into the WTC. His daughter chose to show defiance to those who caused us pain by going ahead with her wedding. My ex-husband (A gifted musician) was happy to provide music, free of charge, for thier ring ceremony.
So you see.....we are all in some way connected to someone who was lost on that terrible day that brought our nation together a year ago.

Thanks for putting up with me guys.

Miss Tree (AKA Amber)

Amber,

I am very sorry to hear about your neighbor.

PS. What's there to put up with?

Michael:
Definitely. I'm glad someone had the guts to bring that up with all of this patriotism in the air... You're a better man than I.

-Bill

<edit>
I just thought I'd share part of a column that I thought was interesting. I didn't write it, but if you want to feel better about yourself by flaming me for not sharing your opinion... go ahead. I don't care.

"While an understandable focus has been placed on the 2,801 casualties of the event, there's another casualty that has escaped much notice.

That casualty is our freedom.

With all the focus on the war against terrorism, we've been distracted from the real war that's going on - our governments (US and Canadian) versus us.

There was much ado after September 11 about defending our way of life from attack. There were many speeches about protecting liberty and our democratic way of life. But in a twist that would have amused George Orwell, many of those speeches and the steps they proposed to protect our freedoms were nothing more than a smokescreen for taking them away.

Tell me, do you feel more secure now that airports conduct random searches and prevent you from taking anything sharp onboard a plane? Sorry, I don't. Random searches are nothing but a PR stunt. On most of the flights I've taken, the people pulled aside have been white-haired old men and ladies.

As for stopping you from taking sharp items on a plane…that makes sense when it comes to items that could possibly be used for assault purposes. But a pin on the back of a button? A nail clipper? That's sure to stop any unwanted airborne manicures, but terrorists? Please.

Better safe than sorry, you say? No, better smart than sorry. And these steps aren't smart, they're annoying, improperly executed and insulting to one's intelligence.

But these steps are just an inconvenience. The real problem is the draconian steps the government took to take away our freedoms. Governments can now read our e-mail, enter our homes and search our property without a warrant, all to protect us from terrorists. Great. But who's going to protect us from the government?

Certainly not the media, who helped the government sell us their version of reality. They made the perfect bedfellows - the government needs our fear to control us, and the media needs our fear to sell more newspapers.

You know what happened on September 11, 2001? The FBI screwed-up, the White House screwed-up, the airports screwed-up - and as a result, 2,081 people died horribly.

But you won't hear that too often. Because the same power that convinced us that artery-clogging fast-food is our friend and Will & Grace is Must-See-TV turned their brainwashing power to pushing the White House's agenda.

Anyone with opinions that didn't fall into lockstep with the White House propaganda were discredited in the press as being soft on terrorists, or insensitive to the 911 victims. In the U.S., columnists were fired for daring to criticize their half-wit president. Orwell's thought-crimes had become a reality. Freedom of the press is meaningless if the press refuses to exercise it. Instead of doing it's job as an independent arena for the discovery of truth, the newsmedia effectively choked off debate all in the name of protecting our way-of-life. Thanks...

Ironically, the only winner in this whole scenario is Afghanistan who, freed of the Taliban, actually had their rights restored. Truth is stranger than fiction, but this is practically the Twilight Zone...."
</edit>

Oh.....I guess as an old lady, putting in my two cents, I feel that I might get to sentimental sometimes.

Mr. Gold,
That was an interesting article excerpt. I must admit that I have stopped flying commercially because I don't want to go through the humilitaion of being strip searched. I have a six inch metal plate holding together what's left of one of my thigh bones, I'm sure to get stopped when I set off the metal detector nowadays.


Scary isn't it?

Another thing about metal detectors, especially if you are on the mechanical team: Steel toed shoes set off metal detectors too!! I found that out in 2001, before 9-11 on the way to Florida for Nats.
But I found it interesting how the two airports handled it.
In CT, they made me stand aside and wanded me. Then after it beeped near my feet, the lady there pulled up my pants legs to make sure I wasn't concealing a weapon of some sort under my pants or socks. I told her it was steel toed shoes but procedure is procedure.
In FL on the way home, the metal detector went off again, (I know I know stupid me I should have learned the first time and not worn them again) I went through and they wanded me and when it beeped near my shoes I again told the person that it was steel toed shoes.
They just waved me on through!! I was kind of shocked at that!!!

Very interesting!

This year I wore normal sneakers as I did not want to be stopped.
(But I was anyways, as a random screening.)
Oh well!!

Many people have laid their lives opon the alter of freedom to protect the freedoms we have today. Yet those in power wish to stay in power, and gain more power. :( They saw fear in the public after September 11th, and rather then uphold the Constitution like they swore, but catered to the mood of the moment and expanded their power while limiting our freedom to make the homeland 'safe'.

From LP.org
As the nation commemorates the victims of the 9/11 terrorist attacks, Libertarians are urging the government to pay tribute to them by restoring the full constitutional rights that Americans enjoyed before that tragic event.

“September 11 is a day for Americans to proclaim, ‘We will never surrender,’ ” said Steve Dasbach, Libertarian Party executive director. “We will never surrender to the terrorists who threaten our safety, nor will we surrender our fundamental liberties to the government.”

On the one-year anniversary of the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington that claimed nearly 3,000 lives, Americans are reliving the shock and brutality of the event, sharing in the anguish of the victims and struggling to come to grips with the “day that changed everything.”

And as the nation participates in various displays of patriotism, Libertarians are urging the government to restore the freedoms that were taken away in the aftermath of the attacks so Americans can reclaim the liberty that is their birthright.

“In the trauma following the 9/11 attacks, an anxious public was clamoring for politicians to ‘do something,’ ” said Dasbach. “Unfortunately, they did the wrong thing, by passing laws restricting the freedom of innocent people.”

Just six weeks after the event, Congress passed the Patriot Act, which expands the government’s power to tap phones, monitor the Internet, conduct ‘sneak-and-peak’ searches and even gives the FBI power to force librarians and bookstores to reveal the names of customers.

And that was just the beginning of a misguided government power grab, Dasbach said.

“President Bush now asserts that he has the power to proclaim – without showing evidence – that American citizens are ‘enemy combatants,’ and then to order them jailed indefinitely without charges, without access to a lawyer and without the right to appeal.

“Attorney General John Ashcroft, according to a Wall Street Journal article, plans to set up camps for more such enemy combatants who will be jailed without charges, and a cowardly Congress declines to speak out against these police-state tactics.”

Now Congress and the president should admit that mistakes were made in the post-9/11 rush to legislate, Libertarians say.

“It’s time to repeal the Patriot Act and to renounce Bush’s breathtaking presidential power grab before any more damage is done to American freedom,” Dasbach said.

Another thing the government should do to commemorate 9/11, Libertarians say, is to reform U.S. foreign policy to reduce the chance of more terror attacks.

“Bush seems oblivious to one of the lessons of 9/11, which is that meddling in hostile foreign nations doesn’t solve problems; it causes them,” Dasbach said.

"Now the president is poised to invade Iraq – a nation that poses no imminent threat to the United States – in a move that could prompt terrorists to execute more barbarous attacks on our shores.

“The only thing that could be worse than the tragedy of September 11 would be to have another such massacre, and another one after that.

“The best way to honor those who perished on September 11 is by ensuring that more Americans – and more American freedoms – don’t perish as well.”


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~
/me is listening to E:\Bob Marley\Bob Marley - 06 - Get Up Stand Up.mp3
Read the lyriccs

Nice article Wetz.

i've been thinking, and i'm starting to get kind of sick of the whole patriotism thing. sure, it was great for a time. then, all the flags on cars wound up on highways (on the side of the highway, like trash, not on the cars), people stopped caring, and then today, they're patriotic, but tomorrow they're normal again. it just annoys me.

second, if you want to have a very broad definition of terrorism, 9/11 was nothing. i consider what happened during WWII (or, the Holucaust), to be a terrorist act. hitler's only reason to kill, to get rid of the jews. the reason behind 9/11? to get rid of the americans. now lets see, almost 3,000, or 11 million (6 million of who were jews). i feel that in the scheme of things, 9/11 was much overblown, and should not have been. sure, the holucaust was a 'war', but bush made 9/11 into a 'war' too.

also, one must think about all the people killed in israel over the years. guess what, i bet it's pretty close, if not higher than 3000. also, they live in the constant fear of being blown up, where as 9/11 was a seemingly isolated event. consider all the other terrorism throughout the world, i bet 9/11 was much smaller compared to everythign else. the only reason it's "so big"? it happened in america, and since it was the first (Well, second if you count the oklahoma bombing), it was blown way out of proportion.

i'm sorry if this annoys anyone, but one really must consider all points of view. please, dont' flame me, but i am willing to have an intelligent debate with anyone who wants too.

Agreed.

Actually, I do feel safer on a plane now.

Depending on your viewpoint, this could be a violation of your first through tenth ammendment rights. I'll let you guys decide on that one.

Actually, he can do that. Taken from The Constitution of the United States of America, Article 1, Section 9, Clause 2: "The privilage of the writ of habeus corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebelion or invasion, the public safety may require it." Now, for those of you who don't know, the writ of habeus corpus dates back to the Magna Carta, and prevents police, sherrifs, etc, from holding you without being charged for a crime. It can only be suspended as mention above. I would consider what happened a year ago to be an invasion, so Bush certainly can jail people without charges. Doesn't mean it's right though.

This coincides with the first statement, and I agree with it too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Bush poised to invade Iraq before this all happened? Either way though, it will still cause more tension.

I do give credit to the government for trying, but a wise man (okay, puppet) once said: "Don't try. Do, or do not. There is no try." It's simple: the government is not doing. The terrorists are still trying, and almost got through on a few occasions since then. Sadly, i don't think much is going to change.

------Tell me, do you feel more secure now that airports conduct random searches and prevent you from taking anything sharp onboard a plane? Sorry, I don't. Random searches are nothing but a PR stunt. On most of the flights I've taken, the people pulled aside have been white-haired old men and ladies. ------

I feel no safer because they're taking away sharp metal objects, but I know that there is no chance that a plane is going to be hijacked again, at least not successfully, unless the hijacker has something that will stop everyone on the plane. I feel safer because NO moron is going to rush the cockpit now. If anyone tried that, even if they had a gun and a knife, that person would be dead before he made it within 20 feet of the cockpit. People arent going to take any more crap, they're pissed off and if anyone tries that junk again, they're going to die.


-Just a thought.
Rob

Very good point. Maybe I should rephase what I said above. I do feel safer from terrorists on a plane. But if there is a mech./electrical problem on the plane...

I disagree. Sure people will attack someone if they think they're up to something, and I don't see why they didn't attack and take down the terrorists on September 11, all they had was box cutters... supposedly. It's still possible for someone to hijack a plane though, they'd just have to be ninja about it. I'm not quite sure what they've done with the cockpit doors, but if they could slit the pilots throats, the plane is pretty much screwed.

Yes I know, blah blah blah... but it is still just as possible.

EDIT: Deleted post myself. Could smell a fight brewing.

too bad
 

a simple request for a moment of silence (1. the absence or sound;stillness. 2. the absence or avoidance or speech of noise.) requires some to become so..ya i'd better edit too.

sorry, but everyone started saying their opinions and feelings, so i thought i might as well too. my school had a moment of silence today, and i respected it. but beyond that, i dunno, just read my first post...

In the vein of this thread, here's a quote from Benjamin Franklin that I don't hear nearly often enough;

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety''

Yes, he's white, he's rich, and he's dead, but in this case, he's also correct.

I do not need, nor see the significance of, any moments of silence, memorials, ceremonies, or fanfare in rememberance of this day; or those events.

I remember what happened every day; every moment. Always. I have seen the footage, the skyline, and the city. I have seen the people who lived, worked, and died there. The memory of those buildings, those people, and those ideals that have been ransacked, exploited, and bastardized since are fresh in my mind.

You'll understand, perhaps, why Jack's assertion in another (deleted?) thread that I should post a short reply to his message to show that I had actually thought about the events of one year ago angered and offended me so. There isn't a single day when I don't think about them.

Heaven forbid there be controversy surrounding a subject that's long been the trumpet of American solidarity, unity, and freedom.

Forgive me while I vomit.

In my mind, these services, memorials, moments of silence and tributes are an egregious insult to the memory of those who died unknowingly and without a chance to defend themselves. It mocks their memory, and their history, in the name of freedom, patriotism, and the United States of America. These ceremonies don't pay respect to the dead at all, but rather serve as an attempt to justify our country's own fear, arrogance, and fallibility.

I don't claim to understand what its like to have lost anyone on that day, or ever, for that matter. I am blessed in that respect. My intent lies not in disgracing the mourning of those so personally affected, but in criticizing and challenging everyone else to consider some of the other forces at play in our country - both before and after 9-11-01.

Fear, not patriotism, compassion, nor concern, drove millions to fly their American flag that day, and for months to follow. Fear of change, fear of improsperity, and most importantly, fear of a lessened quality of life fueled the fires of 'patriotism'. This was the same fear that drove Americans to assault other Americans in the following weeks, and the same fear that suddenly made 'racial profiling' the subject of serious consideration.

Furthermore, I have seen how everyone from the President to the University police at Stony Brook have perverted and capitalized upon the fear, insecurity, and misunderstanding that erupted on that day. Rather than use these events as a springboard for change, in foreign policy and domestic matters alike, the government, media, and American public have turned a deaf ear to the truth. They refuse, adamantly and with flags waving, to face the reality of their country's 'behind closed doors' policy-making, military and political action, and blatant propaganda campaigns. Their sympathy and outrage at the inhumanity of flying a loaded airliner into a building are put to pasture as suicide bombers kill people every day in the Middle East. Where was that humble sense of humanity during the Tiannamen Square events, or during the Civil Rights movement?

Nowhere to be found, largely.

In the past year, this country has begun to slip into a frightening mob rule mentality that the basic tenets of its foundation are designed to prevent. It's obvious, I think. Remember, though, that we live in a country with a voter turnout of less than 50% in most cases, and I think that's highly reflective of its reaction post-9-11. Things changed, certainly. The global economic climate was effected, and American foreign policy changed. The one thing that remained constant, however, was our people. They retained their arrogance, their entitlement, and their ignorance.

The mob took over. Stripping away basic rights outlined by the Constitution became okay, so long as you were a member of the flag-flying, Pledge-reciting, US-lovin' mob. Immigrants recognized this faster than anyone else, and likely because they had the benefit of realizing how life in this country is different. They, too, flew the flag, but not from the same fear that drove patriots. No, they flew the flag as a method of self-preservation, and with true respect for what this country used to stand for.

Political figures rode the wave of the mob, circumventing checks and balances, established precedent and laws, and ensuring the success of their careers and the solvency of their future.

Allow me to introduce a portion of a conversation I had recently with someone;

Julia: I've decided to donate 9.11% of all my orders through my online store from 9/11-10/11/02 to the Red Cross.
Julia: That might get some people interrested.
Me: in buying stuff?
Julia: yeah

That is the climate of this country. It's not new, it's not concerned about human rights, and it most certainly hasn't changed since these tragic events.

You all take your moment of silence. I'll use the opportunity to voice my opinions and exercise my rights - before I no longer have them.

I understand a lot of the posts that have been made, and as an American you have those rights. However, just a comment from me.... I am very religious, and in my mind, by having the moment of silence, I am somehow paying a bit of respect through silence and prayer.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Over 210,000 dead in the first year.

WTC attacks. About 3000 dead in the first year.

We memorialize the WTC attacks. We don't memorialize the nuclear attacks. Hmmmmmm.

true, but that was in retaliation of another cowardly sneak attack, which happened to be on troops, instead of inocent civilians.

We memmoralize WTC attakcs because we lost our people. The Nuclear attacks in japan we do not memmorialze b/c they attacked us @ Pearl Harbor. We do not reward those not deserving.

Japanese attacked us @ Pearl Harbor. We were Devastated. We Moved On. A Few months later we caught the Japanese off guard by Nuking Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Pear harbor a Day which will Live in Infamy

2001 WTC attacked by Alqueda. Another sneak and low blow to the US. We were Devastated. We Moved On. The US will hunt down and kill all Terrorist Groups. Sept 11,2001 A day in which will live in Infamy.

All in all. Those who choose to try and take away our Freedom lose their right to live in my book. Any Country willing to attack the US and win has another thing coming. We will strike harder faster and much more efficiently. Thats my feeling on it. Attack if u wish be prepared for the outcome though. The results will surprise you.

Ok so Trash 20 broke it down.
I agree


We should not feel sorry for those who attacked us first.

Trashed:
I'm not sure I follow your logic. The nuclear attacks killed civilians too. I'm with MBiddy on this one. We all care about innocent lives, right? So why not give the deceased civilians that our military has killed the same respect and commemoration that our country has given to the victims of the terrorist attack? This is a point I hadn't thought of before, but it makes sense to me.

Although, I'm of the opinion that we should be paying more attention to our rights (or lack thereof at the moment) as citizens of this country (as well as Canada) as opposed to side-tracking our lives thinking about things that we had no control over that happened one year ago.

-Bill

PS -
Michael: Very nice posts.

<edit>
It doesn't make sense to me... just because a country or a group of people attacks and/or kills members of our military, I don't believe that gives our country lisence to kill civilians.
</edit>

<edit #2>
George W. Bush, John Ashcroft, and the rest of the U.S. Congress want to take away quite a few of our freedoms as American citizens. Read the Patriot Act. So they deserve to die?
</edit #2>

<edit #3>
Do you really believe this? How can you hunt down what you can't see? The world will never be rid of terrorism until the standard of living, and the value of human life that we have in this country and other "civilized" nations is replicated across the globe. This will take decades of hard work and determination, in addition to a copious sum of money. The way you defeat terrorism isn't by killing terrorists... it's by making people across the world content with their lives... by making them productive members of the world. But this logic isn't easily sold to those governments/people in the world who have large amounts of money, because it involves them parting with some percentage of their holdings. They feel that they can pass off the job to younger generations so that they can remain wealthy. It's human greed... we are so screwed...
</edit #3>

~500,000 American soldiers died in WWII.
~400,000 English soldiers and civilians died in WWII.

~20 million Russian soldiers died...

(If these figures are wrong, please alert me to this at once, thank you.)

I am of the opinion that America, as a whole (I speak for no individual), is a very self-centered state.

The values in American society can be observed by looking at some of the reactions to the Attacks (yeah, you know what I'm talking about). A main reaction to them was sorrow, and grief, for all who lost loved ones, which I can understand, I felt the same way. However, another distinct feeling was "patriotism".
I do not see how the actions of Islamic fundamentalists should make me want to serve my country. I am not a person who thinks war is a good thing, in general. I have a lot of opinions, but I pride myself on being openminded.

I'm going to give up writing this out. Too many complex ideas to transcribe... I've never been good at this type of thing. If you want to know what I think and how I feel, please contact me by some other means. AIM, Tigerbolt, whatever...

Ugh...

I'm saying that the Japanese started it, and knew that an attack was going to come. That was in war time, and we were in a war that they made us join. I'm not saying that civilians weren't killed in any attacks, im saying that hiroshima was in retaliation, while the twin towers was similar to pealr harbor (in being a surprize). Comparing the 2 i don't think is relevant. I am not discrediting anyone's lives as I believe that a person is a person no matter who they are.

Learn to type in proper English... I don't agree with you, and your lack of ability to read/write is really depressing.

ouch, little bit harsh there don't ya think?

Didja want to run that past me *one* more time?
 

Our people? So, exactly, what are your purporting here? Is is that Americans are better than anyone else because of birth circumstance, or because of race, religion, or government?

I'm a bit confused. Surely, you're not suggesting that the life of a Japanese person is any less valuable than your own.

Quote:

The Nuclear attacks in japan we do not memmorialze b/c they attacked us @ Pearl Harbor. We do not reward those not deserving. Japanese attacked us @ Pearl Harbor. We were Devastated. We Moved On. A Few months later we caught the Japanese off guard by Nuking Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Pear harbor a Day which will Live in Infamy.

A few months? The first atomic bomb dropped on Japan was on August 6, 1945. Just shy of 4 YEARS later. There's a significant difference.

There are myriad reasons why the United States used the atomic bomb during World War II. We didn't catch anyone off-guard. Read the Potsdam Declaration, please. It says, essentially, that Japan should surrender immediately or we'll beat the snot out of them.

The casualties that would've occurred during an amphibious assault of the Japanese mainland would've been astronomical; assuming that the United States would've succeeded at all.

Further, the atomic bomb was dropped on two cities - populated by civilians. These were not strategic military targets in any sense beyond the message these acts sent to the world.

First, it showed that the United States had won the race to the nuclear age, and was now capable of unleashing wanton, rampant destruction. This was most important, of course, and eventually caused Japan's surrender.

Second, and nearly equally importantly, it sent a clear warning to the Soviet Union (our ally, at the time) that we were not to be messed with. This had as much to do with maintaining our position as a fledgling world superpower as it did with ending World War II.

It was not, however, about retaliation, deserved or otherwise. It was about sending a clear, concise, fearful message. Terror. Terrorism. While it was done under the declaration of war, the motivation does not change.

Quote:

2001 WTC attacked by Alqueda. Another sneak and low blow to the US. We were Devastated. We Moved On. The US will hunt down and kill all Terrorist Groups. Sept 11,2001 A day in which will live in Infamy.

In 1991, the United States cut off electricity and water supply to Iraq, killing over 100,000 civilians.

In Nicaragua, the United States supported a coup to overthrow a democratically elected government. Where does your freedom stand there? This isn't about freedom. It's about politics.

In 1945, the United States killed over 200,000 civilians to send a message. The only reason we don't consider it terrorism is because it'd be pretty hard to live with ourselves, and certainly impossible to justify the zealot-like steadfastness that our government and our populace have shown toward those who 'wronged us'.

What you, and they, don't realize is that the reason we were attacked in the first place is precisely because of that attitude - that apathy toward the world socio-political climate, and the arrogant assumption that we can and should overpower anyone or anything that doesn't match our philosophy.

Oh. Pre 9-11, that attitude was more subdued than it is now. When this country needed humility, it displayed hubris. When this country needed acceptance, it displayed arrogance. The American public was so shocked to learn that they were so admonished. Who was really caught off-guard? It wasn't the Japanese. It was us, and it was our fault.

Quote:

All in all. Those who choose to try and take away our Freedom lose their right to live in my book.

Perhaps you need to take a long, hard, critical look at your neighbor. Recently, a poll showed that 40% of Americans (that's 4 of 10 people, to make it more intimate, of course) feel that our First Amendment rights go too far. Perhaps you should lend a critical eye on our President, who's signed into law legislation that strips away our basic rights to privacy. The terrorists didn't need to do anything to take away our rights, really, because they had the forsight and intelligence to realize we'd do it ourselves.

The mob rules.

Quote:

Any Country willing to attack the US and win has another thing coming. We will strike harder faster and much more efficiently. Thats my feeling on it. Attack if u wish be prepared for the outcome though. The results will surprise you.

The results don't surprise anyone. Afghanistan, Iraq, and Al Qaeda all realize that warfare with the United States is an exercise in futility. What nobody seems to realize however, is that the destruction has reached far further than the 16 or so acres of the World Trade Center site, and the attacks continue, each and every day, as our country slowly crumbles, collapses, and eventually destroys itself.

Who needs guns when you have fear?

Let's keep the focus of this thread to it's intended purpose yeah?

1st: There is a great debate that America had knowledge of the attack on Pearl Harbor before it happened...why do people say that? Its simple, America was caught in the middle of the Great Depression and a war time economy would bring about the end of the depression era when partnered the New Deal policies of FDR.

2nd: It took a few more then a few month to drop the bomb on Japan because of some 'lil place known as Europe and some guy named Hitler :rolleyes:

3rd: The US admits its nearly impossible to hunt down and kill ALL terrorist groups

4th: many countries don't engage the US in war. Look at the wars of the past: Korea, Vietnam, Dessert Storm, Dessert Fox, WWI, War of 1812 (if memory serves me right...which it rarely does) are results of the US either being agressive or issueing warning and then haveing to back them up.

5th: Remember Iraq was an ally of the US during its war with Iran (just had to throw that in there)

The final thing I have to say is that the Nuclear bombs only killed civilians. Although the cities were producing military supplies they did not have adequate materials to produce them.
-Evan

p.s. And people wonder why I'm happy to be from Manhattan

um, guys, i believe that Hiroshima was a stratgic city to destroy. i have heard that it was second in the line of command. that means, if tokyo was taken, or destroyed, the 'center' of japan would become Hiroshima. therefore, Hiroshima was a legit military target, under the whole rules of war (which really makes no sense if you think about it, but that's another topic). if i'm wrong correct me, cause i don't remember where i heard this.

This thread should not be a debate over Hiroshima. Does robomama want to step in and say something?

ROFL!!!

...beside the fact that it was POPULATED BY CIVILIANS.

That's all I have to say.

i forget which city it was but, either Hiroshima or Nagasaki was bombed as a result of the target city having a heavy cloud cover

Fat Man, the second atomic bombed dropped on Japan, was originally for Kokura. That city was covered by haze, and the bomb was redirected to Nagasaki.

That was August 9, 1945.

With all due respect, Sandrag, I strongly believe that we should let a discussion flow. I'm here to see opposing viewpoints, do a bit of educating, and maybe even learn a few things in the process. If we narrowly adhere to short description that is the title of each thread, I fear we'll stifle our development, discussion, and education.

Ian - while Hiroshima may have held some military significance, the prime reason for dropping the bomb was wholly symbolic. Military benefit was a justification rather than a cause, in this case.

I am so proud of you all for expressing yourselves boldly. Whether I agree with you all or not, I respect you for having the guts to honestly speak your minds.

Out of respect for Robomama's origional post, I have posted a new thread where you ladies and gentlemen my debate your issues. It is entitled "Patriotism and Politics"


Thank you as well Sanddrag for reminding us about the origional purpose of this particular thread.

I'm so proud of you kids!

Everyone loves a good argument. I have many points I could make but I'll only make a couple.

You say Japan attacked the US. Japan didn't attack, the Japanese government did. The citizens of Japan knew nothing about the attack. On a side note, Hawaii wasn't even part of the US when it was attacked.

And... it's what parents always tell you, and what teachers always tell you, and what the law always tells you, and what all other people of authority tell you.....

"Fighting doesn't solve anything."

So why don't people practice this? What does blowing people up actually solve? If someone hits you, and you hit back, and they get knocked down, they're going to be even more pissed when they get back up. Maybe they'll get their friends to back them up next time. How about if poor Peter and Sally get in the way when the big guys are fighting?

Of course people are too thickheaded for a warless world to actually happen. Dumasses.*

* It's pronounced Do-mas ;)

and so once again i opened my big mouth causing a peaceful thread to go into debate over why we actually bombed japan and why they came after us so on and so far. as a catholic i believe that no one person should die because of retaliation. as an american i feel that yes freedoms were taken; our privacy went out the window so that US can make sure we don't get attacked again. no matter what you do though to prevent an attack. its still is going to happen thats why it would be called inevitable. where theres a will theres a way.


the last post i did here pretty much would be my teachers personality that if you attack us u deserve to die. my personality is different. those who are innocent and died w/o cause should be honored. and i firmly believe that from time to time the US sticks its nose in other countries business a lil to much causing us to get into more trouble then we were b4.

once again i apologize for turning this thread upside down.

Hiroshima hiroshima hiroshima

Does no one remember Dresden?

We droped 700,000 phosphorus bombs on a city of 1.2 million, turning the great city into a great firestorm.
250,000 bodies were counted. Estimates range upwards of 500,000 dead.

In one night.

90,000 to 125,000 died instantly in Hiroshima from the blast,


"Precision saturation bombing" we called it. Always did like them precision strikes. The second wave was 3 hours later, and killed many as they were leaving shelters and trying to rescure others.

No one remembers Dresden. :(

Perl Harbor was attacked December 7th, 1941.
Hiroshima was bombed on August 6th, 1945. (45 months later)
We did not catch them off guard. We told them, stop the war or we WILL destroy a city. And in the middle of a war, the bombing of Japan had become rahter regular.


Freedom is precious. I have and will continute to stand up and defend it. I have and will continue to protest the unconstitutional actions the current administration is taking. I will use my voting power this comming election. I have and will continue to write letters to my congressmen expressing my views on the priceless value of ALL American freedoms.


September 11th
We havn't forgotten.
We will never forget.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
/me is listening to E:\Carbon Leaf\Echo echo\Carbon Leaf - 12 - Toy Soldiers.mp3

Too true... I seem to have found the same piece that Wetzel cited...

In my book, the US government doesn't have a pristine record, when it comes to international affairs... Right now, off the top of my head, I can name two people, whom the US government consider immediate threats to national security, and our safety, but who were also, at one point (two, because these people are independant of one another) supported by the US government, either monetarilly, tactically, or by means of equipment (though it's by no means limited to these). These two people seem to be rather popular, at the moment...

Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden...

Think it's crazy? Well, it was.

Under Reagan, the DIA (Defence Intelligence Agency) "provided detailed information on Iranian deployments, tactical battle planning, plans for airstrikes and bomb-damage assessments" to Saddam Hussein, in support of anti-Iranian actions.

As for Osama bin Laden...
http://www.library.cornell.edu/colld...ast/lacost.htm


Horray for the Cold War! Without it, this world would be a different place!

...though probably for the better

Part of the reason Hiroshima was chosen is it was a small japanese town, so the civilian casualties would be lower than if, say, Tokyo were bombed. Also, as many people don't know about Dresden, so to do many people not know that Japan bombed the continental US BEFORE we declared war, before pearl harbor. That's right, many people say we have never been attacked on our home soil after the civil war and before 9/11, but that's not true. The government asked reporters not to mention it in the papers so the public didn't find out about it, and as a result, the Japanese thought that it wasn't effective and stopped the bombing (and in reality, it wasn't effective). Maybe I can dig up a link later. Anyway, just trying to get all the facts out.

Now, onto modern times. The major problem I see with America is the mentality of "If it doesn't effect me, I don't want to know about it." The public rationalizes "I'm not a terrorist, so the Patriot act doesn't effect me." They say "I live in America, the middle east is complicated, why should I care about foreign policy?" And, this is why we have the problems Micheal has so well defined--People, in general, don't care. They say they have patriotism, but to them that means not questioning the government. I say it means the opposite.

Stephen

umm....No.
That is completly wrong.

Japan never bombed the continental United States.

A few days before Pearl Harbor, the Japanese foreign minister was in Washington talking of peace.
Another thing, FDR was looking for a way into the war to help England. Lend-lease was all the public opinion would allow, until Pearl Harbor.

I am starting to believe all the studies saying that American students today are ignorant of history.

gar

Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~
/me is listening to E:\David Bowie\David Bowie - Moonage Daydream.mp3

Agreed.

I am fairly certain I am correct. The Japenese put bombs on parachutes, and let them drift through the jet stream to the US. As I said before, it was not very effective. I did not back myself up with a source, so I can understand your response, however. I'm in class right now, but when I get home I'll get a link for you.

Stephen

[edit]
Ok, here's a link for you.


And here's the relevant material:
[/edit]

You'll note, however, two things.

First, 6 people were killed. Ever. Further, if those people hadn't gone pokin' around, they'd be fine. Not a single forest fire was started by these bombs.

Second, this occurred in the final moments of World War II, in 1945. Of course, this was well after the United States declared war on Japan.

I'm also confused about its relevance.

I want to point out one quote in that: "Fighting doesn't solve anything." Now, try telling that to the people of Carthage. Wait a second, you can't. Carthage was wiped out by the Romans. Okay, a more modern version: lets tell all Americans that. Of course, if there wasn't any fighting, there would be no Americans to tell that too: Britain would still own us. You could try telling the Confederecy that. Then we realize that the Civil War eliminated the confederacy. How about telling the people of Hiroshima and Nagasaki that fighting never solves anything. Then we get to the point made several times in this thread: they were both nuked and destroyed. What people fail to realize is that the US is the only country in the world to ever use a nuclear weapon. And I agree with Ian: the US has been the most agressive country since WW2. So saying that violence never solves anything is the worlds biggest lie. You ever think that if extraterrestrials visited this planet, they'd think we're savages and give up on us?

And I am not a do-mas!

Oh really? I'm going to go and kill all the people I don't like now because I now know it will solve my problems. Fighting causes more problems buddy. The Japanese military bombed Pearl Harbor, we blew them up as a response. That sure solved their problems with us didn't it? Actually I have no idea what I'm talking about, I just think hurting people is bad. Actually, what does it matter? We're all just some atoms and stuff put together a certain way right? So killing people doesn't matter right? Nothing matters any. I like pasta. MOO MOO I'm debating about war and fighting and such and in a thread intended to show respect to people who lost their lives MOO MOO!!! WAR IS BAD!!! STOP THE FLAME WAR!!! EVERYONE IS RIGHT!!! Peace.

***silence***

Hey, I said violence solves everything. I never said that was a good thing.

Violence does not turn world opinion in your favor.
Violence does not stop the violence.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~
DDR 5th Mix - Right Now

Hmm... I agree, for the most part, but I also believe in being specific...

When one nation, organization, or state instigates violence against another nation, organization, or state, I would say that "world opionion" typically would sway away from the aggressor (though I don't think this sort of thing is absolutely predictable). If you're the aggressee, then one might argue that "world opinion" would sway in your favor.

As for violence not stopping violence, I can see a possible end of the Cold War that would have stopped all the violence... Violence used as a tool is despicable, in my humble opinion, though I'm sure one could come up with a variety of situations where I might rethink that statement...

I'm sorry, Wetzel. I know what you meant. I just have an inane habit of picking apart language...

I hadn't heard about Dresden until is was mentioned here, but even though there were massive casualties, they can't match up to Hiroshima, in my opinion.

700,000 phosphorus bombs killed about 500,000 people. that's not even a 1 to 1 ratio of bombs to people.

Just Little Boy killed about 70,000 from the initial blast and about 70,000 more from radiation burns and poisoning and aftermath effects. That's a 140,000 to 1 ratio.

Hiroshima was just 1 bomb. Dresden was hundreds of planeloads of bombs (or at least a whole lot of planes.).

I realize that the nuclear attack situation was probably necessary to avoid massive invasion casualties for both sides, and it ended the war. It doesn't matter that it was in times of war. I think just the whole nuking thing should be enough to have some kind of memorial "Nuking in Bad" date just to show why no one has been attacked with nuclear weapons after WW2. When you drop a nuke, you REALLY have to mean it.

Well, this thread has gotten so broad that I don't feel like commenting the topics brought up, even though I have strong opinions about them. What I do wanna comment is how surprised and pleased I am with some people's replies: it's great to see that some people aren't blinded by America's power and realize how this power is being used against other countries in the world, sometimes causing violent responses from those countries.
To finish, I wanna say that, if 1/4 of America's young population is formed by smart, open minded people like Michael Krass, by the time those people get in the government the world relation with United States will be severely improved, helping to stop all this anger that is aimed at your country.

Just an opinion from a proud citizen from a "country in development".

:)

Manoel:
What's sad is that the majority of those smart and open minded young people that live in this country will be too disillusioned with our government to serve in it.

*Sigh* Sorry Robomama, I tried. I feel I've done my duty, so back to the stimulating commentary. I just can't sit back and say nothing to all of this.


Too true......But there is hope.

I had a friend that often repeated the phrase, "Be the change."
What he meant was, that if you wanted to see a change in society, start by being an example yourself, like Mr Krass.

Be strong. don't give up. We need you.

thanks for trying miss tree...i believe several of us have.
and thanks to you sanddrag and weedie and jon. such an innocent post...

and by the way gang...i enjoyed my moment of silence. in fact i had several of them yesterday.

you should try it. its good for the soul.
peace out
b

SORRY JESSICA!!
 

that was me on the last post...i forgot jess was signed in instead of me!!
peace out
robomama

Miss Tree:
Don't get me wrong. I'm very interested in politics... the good and the bad. I've had this facination for quite a few years (although I'm only 19). I have been and still am seriously considering pursuing a career related to politics. But just by looking at the voter turnout, or lack thereof, it's painfully obvious that people don't care about how our country is being run as much as they should. I would be very happy with my life if I could spend it in public service, but I could say the same about other professions as well. By no means is the future doomed, it's just going to continue to be tough. I see myself as part of "the change", and I hope I feel the same way years from now.

<edit>
As for the direction of this thread... I've found over the years that most threads, but more often in this "Chit-Chat" forum are written in a Stream of Conciousness style. There's practicly no getting around it. In most cases, the thread starter has no control over narrowing the discussion. I mean no offense by this.
</edit>

I hope you do too. I hope all who have posted here will.

That's what I like about America: we can change it. Not a lot of countrys can the average person like one of us have the power to change their country. Remember people, voting is the most supreme form of authority. Use it, because if you don't, you can't complain. Or get into the government itself and make yourself heard. Whichever you prefer, I guess.

I disagree...after this past year I felt nothing during those moments of silence. The week after it happened the city was changed (people were nice and courteous not to mention it was a slower pace and more quiet then usual). However, after this past year the date has been mocked for everything it stood for, and its true meaning has been lost for me. Between the racial profiling and the people claiming to have lost family members so that they may claim the aid money the date that brought this city together for a week, has also torn apart people's morals.

So the question is what does it stand for now? Does it really stand for the people who lost their lives, or does it stand for the evils of American society...greed and prejudice? I guess the saddest thing of all is that the ceremony at Yankee Stadium made more sense to me then all of these flag waving idiots who curse at the Arabs in "this great city" calling them terrorists, and telling them to go home observing moments of silence.

I've had it, I’m tired of the media reminding me of everything that could and has gone wrong. I live almost everyday in fear of people attacking the subway system I use because the news keeps warning me against it. I hear news casters detailing how to effectively attack the likely targets of terror (the New York Times earlier this year released a diagram of a nuclear power plant and where a plane would have to strike in order to produce the greatest number of casualties). I'm starting to believe the media is my worst enemy (keep in mind the government had a track on Osama's satellite phone ‘till the media told the American public).

Living in a city with 20 million other people ain't easy as it is. However, I refuse to drop out of school because of the subway situation. I will continue flying and I won't stop because some one wants my @#$!$@#$!$@#$!$@#$!$ plane. Finally, I refuse to interrupt my hectic everyday life because some people see it wise to sacrifice themselves for a leader that they've most likely never seen face to face.
-Evan

p.s.
Jim please don't rip my language apart because I'm really tired right now...it's 2 am...I'll edit it when i'm awake

sorry the silence doesn't do it for you. everyone has their own way of reacting to and feeling about anything. things can have a completely different impact on any one person. personally, my faith keeps me peaceful. i wish everyone could find that which gives them peace, whether it be a faith like mine or something else. this might be the solution to the anger and fear that i am seeing expressed when i read many of the posts on this thread and possibly lead to that seemingly elusive world peace i so long for.

September 11,2001
 

After the first plane hit. It was thought as an accident a terrible accident. Then the second plane hit. After 2 planes stuck the 2 mightiest towers in the US it was then taken as Terrorist attacks. Then the 3rd plane struck the pentagon. And just when we thought it was all over, a fourth. Luckily though the 4th. (not to be mean) crashed in a field and not another important place of business / tourist attraction. Yes people died on that flight but out of all the planes that crashed this one was the one filled with heroes in which attempted to take over the plane from the terrorists. Realizing that if they took over the plane they'd crash and probably die or to leave it in terrorist hands and die. They all agreed that they would die trying to bring the plane down anyway they can so that it couldn't hurt anymore people.

Sept 11, 2001 taught us all a valueable lesson. It brought us all together. Even other countries felt our pain and sorrow and offered their assistance in finding the person responsible. All it takes is a tragedy like this to bring together millions if not billions of people together. I am hoping other countries will not have to face the major tragedies that we had to face. This day I personally will not forget due to the fact I witnessed the planes in which hit WTC. I witnessed the fall of the towers and I remember exactly where I was what I was doing:

3rd period bell rang for start of class. about 15 minutes in after the pledge rumors started flying that a plane struck the towers. About 20 minuites after the teacher sent me to the school roof to take Digital photos of the city and what was going on. As I started snapping pics the 2nd plane hit the WTC. Got back to my classroom and called my father from a friends cell phone. All he could say was that to planes struck the towers in an act of terrorism. Just as I go off the phone Rumors were flying that another plane went down in Washington DC. and just when those rumors got confirmed another plane went down in PA. about 2 hrs later police swarmed my HS evacuated it by releasing all students into the hands of guardians or parents. from there the school was transformed into a relief center for the surviving victims for those in or around the WTC area. the Manhattan Ferry was closed to the public and was used to transport injured/ Medical supplies / the Military / and the Police and Fire Dept. The Verrazano Bridge the tunnels and other bridges in the five borough area were closed to the public in fear of more attacks and were used for emergency vehicles The waters swarmed with Tug Boats and smaller ferry businesses carrying victims back to staten island. Everything stopped that day. The streets quiet. The sound of Fighter Jets in the sky doing patrols. For the next couple of weeks everyone at various ages concentrated on the rescue operation and lent a hand anyway they could. Kids making pitures. Teenagers and Young adults volunteering at the shelters and schools. The Older adults at Ground Zero helping the rescue efforts and relieving the tired who have been there for days straight w/ no sleep. All i could do was to sit back in shock. And saying this has got to be a dream. For the next couple of days and for the rest of our lives Everyone in this country became a new yorker and a true american including i. i still have flash backs of that day and will continue to have them b/c i don't want to forget what happened on that day. stupid reason for holding flashbacks? maybe but thats how i remember those lost on 9/11/01. i didn't mention anything about the fall of the towers b/c whats to say, it killed thousands and it pains me to much to say what i saw. stuyvesant HS was the most effected since it was a couple of blocks away let alone other schools and businesses. Well I have no more to add but.... I would like to read what u were doing at the time of the attacks. Since I no it was hard for me to forget but forever etched in my mind and will stay there for the remainder of my life !!!!!

Right on the money. I have vigerously followed the news the first 2 months, to the point of near colapes. And needless to say, I have almost caused myself a nevous breakdown. The media is too my worst enemie. I flip on TLC or something else than the news when cooking lunch. I go to CD and other sights rather than CNN.COM and see what the hell is going on.

When we had the moment of silence and pledge of alegence and "God Bless America" played over the announcements, I almost died of drowing. The same place where we can express our ideas freely is creating a place where we have became fanatical and obsessed like terrorists to destroy and persercute innocent civilians. I see Arabs walking down the street hanging their heads down because at leat 40 billion people will think they will blow up thier work because the news said this and that.

I'm fed up. Give me a break.

I'm outta here. And boy, did I like it better when we didn't have a flag everywhere and when you say Islam you thought peacefull people praying in the direction of Mecca rather than the video coverage of terrorisits running and shooting in the desert.

God Bless The USA.

40 billion? Great googily moogily the US population has grown since the last time I checked! By 37.7 billion! WOW!

I thought it was weird that my school passes out temporary tatoos of peace symbols with an american flag designs and hearts and firecrackers that said on the back MADE IN TAIWAN.

How about "Made In China"? I thought America hated communists. Remember that lil thing called the Cold War?

Better yet the war on drugs. Geogre W. Bush was a crack addict. Who says drugs are bad?:rolleyes:

Actually, I think he did coke. There's a difference between coke and crack.

Powdered cocaine was the drug of choice for rich white people, in the 70's, but more so in the 80's. I find it rather difficult to imagine that George W. Bush smoked crack or freebase, but I have no doubts that he did at least a few lines, back in the day.

As for the "War on Drugs", I am of the opinion that this isn't a war that'll be won by anyone, ever...

I'll give you 2 to 1 odds the war on drugs will be won before the war on terror

Considering that I don't think either will ever be "won"... hmm...

Considering that we are statring to become no better than the terrorists...

What do you mean starting to become? We've been as bad as the terrorists for years. As a country we've killed thousands of civilians throughout our history. The Trail of Tears, The Filipino Insurection, Hiroshima and Nagasaki (like we discussed earlier), Vietnam, etc. We aren't as nice of a country as most people who live here would like to think.

Fair enough. But I am right: we really are no better than they are. And you forgot slavery.

I was just trying to make sure everyone who read this realized that the USA killing civilians, or making civilians suffer really isn't such a recent change in our country's actions. As for my list... there are quite a few things I left off. Yes, slavery would be one... but looking at the world from a late 1700's perspective (and yes I know that slavery in the US existed through to the mid 1800's), slavery was just another fact of life. You can't really think that Thomas Jefferson really thought that his life was as equal as those of his slaves. Yeah... On another not quite so P.C. note, Woodrow Wilson was a member of the KKK. All the great things you learn in History classes/books. All of a sudden, I just lost my passion to write in this post. <insert more retarded facts here>.