Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   Legality of stepstool (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144270)

cjl2625 20-02-2016 20:02
Legality of stepstool
 
From my week 0 experience, the drawbridge is a terrible hindrance to the drivers' line of sight. But it's almost short enough to see over. If I were six feet tall, the view would be quite better.

Would it be illegal to bring a stepstool or platform for drivers to stand on during a match? I don't seem to recall any rules prohibiting that, but if legal, it may be useful under certain circumstances.

Hitchhiker 42 20-02-2016 20:21
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
I think this would be certainly fine. Seeing as the rules only prohibit powered devices or vision-impeding things, a stepstool should be fine, as long as it isn't powered. Not that I can think of a way you could power it :) .

Also, seeing as the GDC says ok (jokingly, but still) to baguettes and turkey legs, this should definetly be fine.

Chris_Ely 20-02-2016 20:29
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
No, see rule T26-1:
Quote:
Originally Posted by T26-1
The only equipment, provided it does not block visibility for FIELD STEWARDS or audience
members or jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities of another Team, including
vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infrared proximity detectors, etc. (e.g. including
imagery that, to a reasonably astute observer, mimics the Vision Guides), that may be brought in
to the CASTLE are as follows:
A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
B. non-powered signaling devices,
C. reasonable decorative items,
D. TEAM STANDARDS and devices, if needed, to assist placement in the Standard Holder,
E. special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability
F. devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy provided they meet all of
the following conditions:
i. do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
ii. do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
iii. do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
iv. do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
v. do not include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication (e.g. radios,
walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications, Wi-Fi, etc.)
vi. do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing PLAYERS
to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other
ALLIANCE members.
Items B, C, E and F also apply to the DRIVE TEAM Member in the SPY BOX.
Violation: MATCH will not start until situation remedied.

gpetilli 20-02-2016 20:58
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl2625 (Post 1543340)
From my week 0 experience, the drawbridge is a terrible hindrance to the drivers' line of sight. But it's almost short enough to see over. If I were six feet tall, the view would be quite better.

Would it be illegal to bring a stepstool or platform for drivers to stand on during a match? I don't seem to recall any rules prohibiting that, but if legal, it may be useful under certain circumstances.
We asked this exact question on the Q&A (search on stool) and got the answer that is is up to the local head ref if he wants to consider "vertically challenged" a disability.

EricH 20-02-2016 21:01
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
FRC4522 asked something similar on Q&A just now.


Now taking bets on whether the GDC will say "No per T26" or "We think the answer to QXXX answers this question. If it does not, please rephrase and ask again."

Anonymous_Sheep 20-02-2016 21:05
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
T26-1 clearly allows for the use of a step stool...

D. TEAM STANDARDS and devices, if needed, to assist placement in the Standard Holder

E. special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability

D. Allows you to bring a step stool to place your standard and does not require you to remove it from the driver station

E. Allows you to bring a step stool provided the ref's agree that being short is a direct hindrance on your ability to play the game

Also I noticed someone has already submitted it to the Q/A so we will know for sure soon.

Hitchhiker 42 20-02-2016 21:05
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
I think you can consider this a "signaling device" or an assist to a vertical height disability.

EricH 20-02-2016 21:13
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous_Sheep (Post 1543384)
T26-1 clearly allows for the use of a step stool...

D. TEAM STANDARDS and devices, if needed, to assist placement in the Standard Holder

E. special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability

D. Allows you to bring a step stool to place your standard and does not require you to remove it from the driver station

E. Allows you to bring a step stool provided the ref's agree that being short is a direct hindrance on your ability to play the game

Also I noticed someone has already submitted it to the Q/A so we will know for sure soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42 (Post 1543385)
I think you can consider this a "signaling device" or an assist to a vertical height disability.
OK, guys. I've got a couple of notes for ya.

First, that item is "if needed" on the standard. Driver's station is roughly 6.5' tall. MANY people can reach that high without much effort--slap the sill of a normal doorway, you're probably good. Reaching that high with a standard might be a bit more difficult, but should be doable.

Second, if you are ACTUALLY disabled by being short (as in, short enough to trigger ADA--there are, in fact, regulations on this), then you can make the argument that you need the stool (though you might get the wheelchair ramp instead). However, if you're just "not tall enough to see the field", that is NOT a disability! If, for example, someone under 5' is on the drive team, they'd probably have a good case for the stool. If the entire drive team is over 6'? Not a chance.


And also, I should remind you guys: SPY. Use him/her.

droswell 20-02-2016 21:18
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
1 Attachment(s)
If passive assistive devices are allowed, we are totally bringing these:

EricH 20-02-2016 21:20
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by droswell (Post 1543395)
If passive assistive devices are allowed, we are totally bringing these:
Guess who's not bringing those, because those land under T26-1's "banned" list?

Landonh12 20-02-2016 21:40
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Our team had this idea, I am pretty sure we are going to use this.

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...ring-the-match

Quote:
Q. Are teams allowed to mount approximately a ten foot pole with a wired camera on top to their individual driver station and get a bird's eye view of the match for driver use during the match?
Quote:
A. There is no legislated maximum height of the OPERATOR CONSOLE. However, be aware that some venues and production setups may have basketball hoops, lighting fixtures, or other installments that can not be moved and may inhibit exceptionally tall OPERATOR CONSOLES. Also, please keep safety in mind when moving and setting up tall OPERATOR CONSOLES like this.

rich2202 21-02-2016 07:23
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Funny you cannot have a periscope, but you can have the electronic equivalent

nighterfighter 21-02-2016 08:57
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1543550)
Funny you cannot have a periscope, but you can have the electronic equivalent
Having a periscope around your face blocks your vision, which is a safety hazard.

mrwright 22-02-2016 09:19
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
So it appears that step stools are officially illegal. We figured they would be but it was worth a try!

Q872

Q783

RoboChair 22-02-2016 13:31
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Category C, it is an announcing stand for your town crier(driver) to better keep with the medieval theme. Make it look nice.

gpetilli 22-02-2016 14:02
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwright (Post 1544180)
So it appears that step stools are officially illegal. We figured they would be but it was worth a try!

Q872

Q783
I read the official answer differently. It does not say it is illegal, it says that it will be handled on a case by case basis by the head ref.

The GDC was not willing to place a line in the sand, but agreed there is a dotted line someplace. Clearly the 4'11" girl is "disadvantaged", but is this a "disability"? Particularly with the tall portcullis, I feel that Stronghold puts many HS girls at a unfair and unnecessary disadvantage, essentially exclude them from consideration as a DRIVER or SPY. Basically the FIRST equivalent of a "glass ceiling".

Personally, I would have preferred they ruled similar to the robot extension of 15"; say allowing a height extension such that the combined DRIVER plus aid did not exceed 6' (pick your favorite statistic for average height of a HS student).

EricH 22-02-2016 14:10
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpetilli (Post 1544363)
I read the official answer differently. It does not say it is illegal, it says that it will be handled on a case by case basis by the head ref.
Actually... it does say it's illegal. It's a violation of T26-1. I don't see how much more clearly they can say "it's illegal".

The 4'11" driver noted falls into one of the exceptions allowed by T26-1 (specifically exception E), and is thus likely to be legal (though who exactly makes the ruling is still up in the air).

Pauline Tasci 22-02-2016 14:34
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
To be honest this is long overdue. When I was driving 2011-2013 I was never allowed to use a stool which hindered performance greatly, I hope more refs will allow the stool this year especially with the huge field elements.

gpetilli 22-02-2016 14:38
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
GDC Answer: DRIVE TEAMS may bring to the ARENA any "special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability", per T26-1-E. If you bring special equipment and it's not obvious that you require it because of a disability, you can expect to be asked about it. However, we won't be setting guidelines on what it means to require special equipment due to a disability. That judgement will be made on a case-by-case basis at events.

The answer says you will be "asked about it". It does does not use the word illegal (or legal).

From ADS Fact Sheet:
Who is an "individual with a disability?"

Under the ADA, an individual with a disability is a person who has:

a physical or mental impairment that substantially limits one or more major life activities;
a record of such an impairment; or
is regarded as having such an impairment.

I would argue that a "vertically challenged" individual is regarded as having a physical impairment that limits them from participating in the life activity of FRC DRIVER.

BTW: 50 percentile height of 16-17 year old boy is 67-70 inches, girl is 64 inches. A combined height of 5'9" would seem appropriate to me - about half the boys are still taller. A "level" playing field for boys and girls.

Full disclosure - I am the person who wrote the original "vertically challenged" question.

cjl2625 22-02-2016 14:41
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Hm, I'm assuming clothing and shoes don't count as "equipment brought into the castle," as I haven't seen any drive teams that are barefoot and/or naked.

So what if you happened to wear exceptionally tall shoes? Bringing some height-increasing boots or some shoes fastened to a tall slab of wood.

Maybe I'm not crazy enough to try it, but for the sake of argument, I wonder what the legality is on that.

XaulZan11 22-02-2016 14:43
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpetilli (Post 1544396)
GDC Answer: DRIVE TEAMS may bring to the ARENA any "special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability", per T26-1-E.
Do you need a step stool to drive or does it just help?

EricH 22-02-2016 14:47
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by cjl2625 (Post 1544401)
Hm, I'm assuming clothing and shoes don't count as "equipment brought into the castle," as I haven't seen any drive teams that are barefoot and/or naked.

So what if you happened to wear exceptionally tall shoes? Bringing some height-increasing boots or some shoes fastened to a tall slab of wood.

Maybe I'm not crazy enough to try it, but for the sake of argument, I wonder what the legality is on that.
Q875 may be of interest.

notmattlythgoe 22-02-2016 15:03
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Nobody seems to have brought up the fact that having a step stool in the middle of the alliance stations would be a major safety hazard for both HP's and other coaches running around.

dradel 22-02-2016 15:23
By federal law the refs wouldn't be able to ask about a persons disability per the ada.
And we can't say girls are allowed to bring stools cause that would be straight up sexist.
I like the combined height of driver plus stool not to exceed 6'. But what if your driver stands 6'2" without a stool are they then illegal??

gpetilli 22-02-2016 15:31
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by XaulZan11 (Post 1544403)
Do you need a step stool to drive or does it just help?
My wife uses a walker. Does she need a handicap tag for the car or does it just help? Ramp or stairs? FRC does allow for ramps for wheel chair using drivers. If a wheel chair user can stand for a 2:30 match does he/she "need" a ramp? ADA says yes and FRC provides one. Perhaps they can provide a 9" step stool for any students less than 5'.

The question is not to define "need" vs. "help". The question for FRC how do they define "disability". The GDC has often said that where there is no specific definition in the rules, we defer to the dictionary definition. The ADA redefines "disability" as an "impairment". In my opinion, the 4'11" tall girl playing Stronghold is visually impaired as compared to the average 70" tall male student. I suspect that most head refs would agree - but I think the GDC should draw a definitive line in the sand that levels the playing field, not open for abuse and is consistent from arena to arena.

dradel 22-02-2016 15:41
I concur!! Either make do with the stool drivers stand no more than 72". Shouldn't matter if a person is 4'11", or 5'5".

gpetilli 22-02-2016 15:50
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dradel (Post 1544430)
By federal law the refs wouldn't be able to ask about a persons disability per the ada.
And we can't say girls are allowed to bring stools cause that would be straight up sexist.
I like the combined height of driver plus stool not to exceed 6'. But what if your driver stands 6'2" without a stool are they then illegal??
Clearly they can not ask about the medical cause of the disability, but the fact that they are impaired is evident. Amusement parks have bars that you must be taller than to ride. A maximum height line/bar to use a provided step stool seems legit to me.

gegozi 22-02-2016 16:14
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
It should be allowed because they allow tall driver stations.
Otherwise, you may be allowed to stand on a stack of papers or whiteboards...
Just a possibility, i'm not sure whether the refs will call it illegal...

GaryVoshol 22-02-2016 18:06
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Oh great, make me the bad guy if I decide that it's not a disability. "But the ref last week allowed it!"

I sure hope we get some direction in ref training. Then you can ask me about it in the drivers' meeting and I'll have an official answer for you.

Else, making it up as we go, we will be inconsistent at different events.

gpetilli 22-02-2016 22:09
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by GaryVoshol (Post 1544565)
Oh great, make me the bad guy if I decide that it's not a disability. "But the ref last week allowed it!"

I sure hope we get some direction in ref training. Then you can ask me about it in the drivers' meeting and I'll have an official answer for you.

Else, making it up as we go, we will be inconsistent at different events.
I did send an email to frcteams@frcinspire.com to ask for a more definitive team update. I don't think it is fair to leave it to the local refs.

Sperkowsky 22-02-2016 22:13
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
This may not be a bad idea. I (Our one and only driver this year) am very short standing at a daunting 5'4". A stepstool would be slightly demeaning but very helpful. Although, we will probably just stick to watching our gopro live feed which will be seeing the match from 6 feet over the driver station :D.

EricH 22-02-2016 22:15
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpetilli (Post 1544719)
I did send an email to frcteams@frcinspire.com to ask for a more definitive team update. I don't think it is fair to leave it to the local refs.
That is a good idea.

For the record, if someone isn't obviously "vertically challenged", then I would oppose their using a stool. And if a team brought in a stool for a "vertically challenged" team member, and someone else was using it who WASN'T "vertically challenged", I think that would be grounds for a T26-1 violation.

But if someone was obviously a little short, I don't think there would be a problem.


Now, here's the thing: You have 2 options without resorting to a stepstool. They are the Spy, and the option of a camera up a pole as part of the driver's station. Either one could help.

gpetilli 23-02-2016 09:40
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
Appropriate "stool theme" LOTR scene

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bawVQ7fkOfA

Wayne Doenges 23-02-2016 09:59
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
I posted the same question years ago about one of our students.
Here's the thread:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=83639

Libby K 23-02-2016 10:16
Re: Legality of stepstool
 
I think if a team brings something like this, and FIRST is really leaving it up to the refs, then the team needs to talk about it with the Head Ref beforehand, and that Head Ref needs to brief all the refs about it so there's consistency.

A team near us went through an entire season with a box for their driver to stand on, cleared by the head refs at all events... Only to have it pulled away during the autonomous segment of one of their last qualifying matches at the DCMP. That wasn't cool.

If you're going to try something like this with your drive team, get it OK'ed early (maybe after the first driver's meeting?) and if they say no, accept gracefully.

Those of you who know me, know I'm not tall (5' 4" on a good day) - our driver is shorter than I am and he's reported no issues other than mild inconveniences. If you're concerned about directing your robot effectively, I'd suggest you use a camera & avoid the back-and-forth with volunteers/staff.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:51.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi