Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

This particular question has been debated by multiple LRI's and I've heard different opinions. Are these bumpers legal:
Imgur Link

If you look at R28:
The key word is "numerals" in bullet point A. If you look at the dictionary definition: Merriam-Webster
Dictionary.com
Oxford Dictionary

The logo is clearly a numeral by the dictionary definition, and it conveys the number 4607 unambiguously. So we don't have a problem right? By the letter of the law we should be legal, and I would love to hear the opinion of Big Al.

Edit: Changed massive picture to imgur link.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Here's an Imgur link for those of us that don't have a bajillion pixels.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Thanks Ty! Uploading from my phone.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Do you want to have hassles at robot inspection? if so, leave them as they are, they look neat. If you just want to breeze through inspection, fix the numbers.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Questions, no hassles. The LRIs are really good where we are in MN. But they were concerned.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I like the stylish look with the 0 and team name :D

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

If you leave them as they are, bring some corndogs for the RIs.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I'm sorry but at first glance I did not unambiguously see that as a zero. I thought your number was 467.

If I can't tell, can the scouters from other teams tell? "Hey, I never saw 4607 play today, so I don't have any data on them. Did they not show up?"

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I have to say that I agree with Gary.... initially thought you were 467

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

(emphasis mine)

I'm sorry but I agree with Gary. If I were your robot inspector, I would ask the LRI for a ruling on whether the CIS logo is considered a numeral.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

A numeral is any symbol that represents a number. It is most definitely a numeral. The only question is whether it's ambiguous or not. The only opinion that matters is Big Al at this point because the LRI at our events has already deferred to him. I'm also a robot inspector so I know the process. It's interesting hear the opinions from everybody.

I've talked to numerous teams that have seen our bumpers and want to do the same with their logos. The ruling here does set a precedent, and is important that we clarify it now.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I think it also needs to be read in context with R27 (emphasis mine):
R21-D: I have a hard time interpreting the letters "CIS" as a number.

If we desire to continue to be able to add some personalization to bumpers by using custom fonts, I suggest that we not go down the slippery slope of pushing the limits on what can and cannot be interpreted as a number. To quote the blue box of R28, "The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." If teams start clouding their numbers with logos and calling it a "font choice," we can look forward to a rule next year where numbers must be printed in Times New Roman.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

So, is the "CIS" part of the numbers, or and additional marking?

Edit: sniped by bachster

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I have a hard time interpreting the letters "CIS" as a number.

If we desire to continue to be able to add some personalization to bumpers by using custom fonts, I suggest that we not go down the slippery slope of pushing the limits on what can and cannot be interpreted as a number. To quote the blue box of R28, "The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." If teams start clouding their numbers with logos and calling it a "font choice," we can look forward to a rule next year where numbers must be printed in Times New Roman.[/quote]

Agree with the above. We have two 0's in our number and I wouldn't think of putting our logo for them. Slippery slope indeed.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Your problem is that you asked ahead of time. Now when you show up, your LRI could say: I replied that they were not legal, so go fix them.

However, if you just showed up at a competition, they would be hard pressed to DQ you for only that. They want teams to play, and that does not cause a safety or material rule infraction (like extending 30" past your frame perimeter).

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

The old "beg forgiveness" argument. In this case, it's easy enough (but not pretty) to fix at an event, so they would be justified in asking for a change based on the LRI and CRI (Al) ruling.

As an RI myself, I'd rule that they need to be changed, so I also await the CRI ruling.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

To take a different tack related to the ambiguity of that symbol, if you showed each of those symbols individually to a person and asked them what they saw, your answers would be: "4", "6", "7", and "Oh, cool logo".

Honestly, if someone really wanted to bend that rule to the absolute legal limit, they'd show up with Roman numerals or something. Thereby forcing the gdc to amend that to "Arabic numerals".

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I agree with Kevin, if this showed up at my event I would make the team change it. The line is pretty clear in the rules and allowing teams to bend that rule is asking for trouble. Such as teams having their name in every number, or custom graphics, etc. If that was the GDC's intent they would have put it in the rules.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I remember two years ago a team posted on the Q&A asking to use roman numerals on their bumpers, and they were ruled illegal.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Others on our team had this opinion as well. I am absolutely against this train of thought. If I am going to operate in a gray area, I am going to do everything in my power to shine light on the issue so others find clarity in the situation.

If [insert elite team] intentionally hid a questionable inspection item (not counting game mechanics that offer advantages i.e. 469 in 2010) and I was inspecting them it would rub me the wrong way. I'm sure I'm not alone in that regard. The "oh well we're at competition and it's too late to fix it" attitude is immoral and not in the spirit of FIRST.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I started out making the argument that although I could clearly read the zero in the team number, I felt it was illegal because the logo contained symbols that were not numerals, and non-numeric symbols are not allowed.

However after further review, I think I convinced myself that it is legal.

The manual states in section 1.4:

When I read the section requiring only numerals on the bumpers, the manual does NOT require the numerals to be written in the standard western arabic numeral system. We've all assumed that it does... but it doesn't SAY that it does. Yet, "If you've read everything, you know everything." Clearly the numeral system is not defined, and therefore intentionally open to interpretation.

So, I'd probably pass it and submit a Q&A seeking further guidance, and suggesting that the manual be adjusted to specify the legal numeral system(s).

As a side point, I'd probably suggest that there be a mention that the team number be written in base ten as well... now that I think of it, I'm sort of surprised that no one has shown up with their team number in binary or hex...

Jason

For a list of some of the more creative numeral systems that could be applied:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_numeral_systems

I'm thinking Ancient Egyptian numerals would be awesome... (I think I was composing this as the comments about Roman numerals were added, above...)

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

There is no need to assume the intent of the rule when it’s very clearly given to you.
Here is the blue box beneath R28: It’s difficult to argue that many announcers could recognize Egyptian numerals on sight.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

But can the same be said for our logo? I'm too biased to give a fair assessment, plus I know our logo and team number like the back of hand. It's actually my phone background...

A lot of people have responded that they couldn't tell the hex was meant to be a "0". That's understandable, but I would argue not enough to say it's illegal (that's the bias...). My question then becomes: To what extent is creativity legal? If not our complete logo, then how about just a hex outline? If we take the letters out does it become legal?

I want to know where the line is so I can push right up next to it without crossing.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

As you said earlier From CD, you’re always going to get varying opinions - but it doesn’t actually matter what anyone on here says. Unless you can get clarification through a Q and A on your specific strategy (good luck) or a general clarification about the rules, you will be leaving it to the discretion of the RIs at your events as to whether or not its legal. The choice to change it now or have the possibility of changing it at an event is up to your discretion.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Ryan,
I watched your robot compete on the Centurion-Krawler stream for about 2.5 matches before I realized that the robot I was watching was a CIS robot. In comparison, I could identify 2501, 3313, 2052, and others right away by their bumpers.

Given, this may say more about the quality of the stream than your robot, however, you need to be aware that you will be mis-identified more than once this season with those bumpers. Even if this were legal, I would advise against it. There are many other better locations for your logo.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I think this meets the definition of "ambiguous." I honestly could not tell that was a zero..a hexagon isn't a typical zero shape. And zeros typically aren't circles; they're ovals, so the regular shape of the hexagon threw me off. The letters are, to me, something not a number. So if I inspected this robot I would tell you to fix the numbers, and of course the LTS would end up getting involved.

If the rest of the numbers were in a font that more closely matched the hexagon I think you'd have a better argument. But to me the letters would still be a problem.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Jason's post reminded me about something someone said about the bumper rules. Unlike the robot rules, where if it is not illegal, then you can do it, the bumper rules are the opposit: if it does not say you can do it, then you can't.

So, the question is: where in the rules does it allow you put anything but the numbers on the bumper? All the decoration inside the 0 is not allowed. In addition, the font of the 0 is different from the other numbers, which adds confusion.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

If I was you I would show up with those bumpers. If the RI doesn't let it pass, then just safety pin a piece of fabric over the interior of the 0. Then, it is definitely ambiguous.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Safety pin? Sorry, then it's definitely illegal. No hard parts past 1" from the Frame Perimeter.


I'd be thinking red paint myself.

OR, here's an option, but I don't know if you'll want to use it: Build a second set of red bumpers. This set is your "show" bumpers.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I'm not an inspector, but I think it was pretty darn obvious that the team was 4607 and not 467. Even more so from a distance-- brains are pretty good at making out patterns.

My opinion means precisely nothing here but they don't seem particularly ambiguous to me. The biggest issue I have is with CIS being printed on them.

Again, my opinion isn't really relevant but it seems a bit pedantic and needlessly picky to say they aren't legal numerals. I suppose that's what you sign up for as an inspector though :P

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

If you have to look up definitions of words to try to justify the legality, I'd walk away from the design. There are many things that we have to deal with to get a working robot on the field. A lengthy discussion about whether or not bumper numbers are legal really shouldn't be one of the issues. (Even though it looks neat).

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Many of those strokes (possibly all) are less than 1/2" wide. Therefore illegal.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I was just about to make the same claim. The purpose of the 1/2" rule is so that at a distance, the number is easily discernible. At a distance, this numeral will be confusing (it was confusing to some CD'ers even at close range). It maybe mistaken for a wide stroked 8, by those with less than ideal eyesight at a distance, for instance.

When someone, such as a reporter, asks you about your team logo (separate from these bumpers) and what it means, do you start with the words: "Well, its the numeral zero..." I suspect you may mention the hex shape is mechanical concept (hex shafts, etc.) and tell them what the letters C.I.S. stand for. Your logo is not a numeral. Your proposed "numeral" is a logo.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

The logo is cool looking. Very professional, unique, well executed. That being said, the logo is not a number. It is a logo.

My ruling is illegal. The team needs to change it.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

I would say illegal due to the letters 'C' 'I' 'S' not being numerals, but technically those are a mask created by the logo rather than being the material of the logo.

It could be argued that the '0' created by the logo creates confusion at first glance since it isn't the same font as the other numbers. Yet that is quite subjective.

It could be argued that the '0' isn't a '0' at all since no depiction of zero on images.google.com or in any western-style font is depicted by a round or hex oval with 3 lines criss-crossing the center. 4607 would have to convince the LRI that their self-made '0' is in fact a zero recognized by people other than their own team.

Thus, while we can't rule for sure - it seems like there is strong evidence to suggest which way the LRI's would rule.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

If you truly want to determine if the bumpers are legal under the games rules, submit the question to the Q&A system. Remember, the GDC's answer is the only one that counts.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Or the LRI or Head Referee's opinion at the event.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

As a rule of thumb, if you have to ask Chief Delphi whether something is legal the day before bag and tag, it's probably not legal.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

As the case has been settled (we failed), I just want to thank all of you for a great debate - this is why I love/live on CD; the lively debates.

We (FRC 4607) knew we were pushing the threshold when we placed the 'numbers'. As with all things that FRC 4607 does, we tested the boundaries.

We went ahead with it knowing it would be questionable. However, for those that have stated (in effect) 'if it is not in the rules it is illegal' or 'if you have to refer to a source/dictionary it is wrong' - I think you may be going about FRC differently than my team does.

I do want my students to push the folds. I want them challenging themselves and the norm. In this case, we were pushing on something we saw as an unambiguous terminology in the rules. We backed it up with three different dictionaries. And in the long run, the LRI's that we greatly respect came back and let us know that they would not pass it.

No harm, no foul. We have a great logo that we incorporate on MOST of our team's media (in fact, we could not find a way to include it on the Team's Website and we awaited to hear back from the LRI's that since we did not use it universally, it was not our Numerals).

I am fine with this. We failed in this part of our branding. My kids fail - and I love this about my team. They are willing to take HUGE leaps - and they are willing to fall short. FRC 4607 does not ever play it safe - and the kids learn from their experiences. I encourage this attitude and how they approach their time on FRC 4607. We may never be a PowerHouse team, but my kids go on to do amazing things because we allow them to dream big and do big - regardless of how they may fail.

We are remaking the bumpers - we will use these as our 'Show Bumpers' in the off-season.

Good luck to all - remember that the build season is more important than the Competition Season!

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Actually, when I saw the title of the post, my knee-jerk reaction was "probably not". With bumpers, if you have to ask, it probably ain't legal.

(Sniped by EvanPerryG)

Although, as a possible compromise -- if your zero had been a simple hexagon with 1/2" strokes (most especially if the points were vertical), I would have ruled it legal.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

The reason that our 'ZERO' was over-sized was to make certain that the outside of the Hexagon was in fact 1/2"!

We did have fun with it - and we are not unhappy at all. In fact, the bumpers took some major damage at our Week Zero event, so we had to remake them anyway!

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

There are places where FIRST wants students to be imaginative, and places where FIRST want conformity. Bumpers and pneumatics are places where if it doesn't say you can do it, then don't.

You are openening a can of worms by putting a logo on your bumper, and for that reason alone, FIRST may DQ the idea.

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

There is nothing like referencing the actual rule...
R28 Team numbers must be displayed and positioned on the BUMPERS such that an observer walking around the perimeter of the ROBOT can unambiguously tell the Team’s number from any point of view and meet the following additional criteria:
A. consist of numerals at least 4 in. high, at least ½ in. in stroke width, and be either white in color or outlined in white
B. must not wrap around sharp corners (less than 160 degrees) of the FRAME PERIMETER
Blue Box
There is no prohibition against splitting Team numbers onto different
sections of BUMPER. The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly
visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and
other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS.

Sorry, I have to side with the "I can't really tell what the team number is" crowd. While really cool, the logo confuses the "0". More importantly, other teams cannot do the same thing due to logo designs, shapes, etc. See you next week in Duluth...

Re: Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)
 

Thanks for ruling on this before Duluth. We'll have enough plenty of time to make them legal. Thanks everybody for offering up your opinions. Nothing like being ripped apart on Chief Delphi :D