Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Being born left-handed and part of about 15% of the general population I guess it was my destiny to also sign-off on a robot design that cannot go under the Low-Bar defense.

Having perused reveals and Week Zero events it looks like we are in a distinct minority this season in a sea of low-profile robots for this year's game.

So I'm starting this thread to provide comfort and advice and a sounding board for fellow Low-Bar Challenged teams across the world of FIRST FRC to unite in fellowship and support... and to rally to one another's side and, who knows, MAYBE change the world... because _you_ are NOT alone.

--Michael Blake
3481 Bronc Botz

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I predict you will be the most sought after robot type, assuming the robot performs well with all of that extra available volume. Supply and demand forces at work. Welcome to FIRST Robotics where you can even get a economics lesson.

What are the odds that 1114, 254 or similar will be joining your support group? While it may be slim, I think there is a chance.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Hard to say that. Being big doesn't necessarily provide any strategic advantage in this game except blocking shots, and a low bot could do that too.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I am almost positive that the archtype of a tall, all-defenses-breaching-robot that can shoot a ball in auto into the high goal and defend the alliance courtyard with a tall structure will be a very desirable partner. This would be our dream first pick alliance partner.

That being said, we also fear you the most but have designed around tall robots by placing our tiny shooter on a longer than normal robot frame so that we can fire over the tallest robot height simply by making the release point of the ball so far back from the bumper that a robot cannot block the trajectory without sticking some arm or something into our perimeter.

You could probably block our camera though.:D

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

We also a low bar challenge robot .

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

We are thrilled to be in this category.
We are here by choice!
We chose our strategy carefully and with purpose.
Being a member of this club is an honor!

Wear it well!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

How about taking shots that can't be blocked? ;)

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Depending on the shooter type, being tall also enables you to shoot over blocking robots. Of course some short robots will not have this problem but it seems like the majority of low high goal shooting robots will.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Good point, but I've seen alot of low bots drive right up to the goal and shoot nearly vertically. Given the time limit on contact in the courtyard low bots should be able to score still.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I am guessing that the low bars are going to get clogged up within 30 seconds of tele-op. The big robots are useful for defense by blocking shots. Because if you get close enough to a robot no mater how tall it is you will be able to block the shots. I have yet to see a robot reveal where to robot is a big bot. I think you will just have to figure out how to most effectively play the game with your big robot. Best of luck

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Given everything we know now, I think building a Low-Bar Challenged robot is the way to go. It makes climbing easier, blocking shots possible, and having unblockable shots. Of course, you give up the opportunity to go under the low bar, but most qualification matches will have at least 1 robot on your alliance than can go under and it should be easy to find a 3rd robot that can in eliminations. Plus, if you have a decent drive train, it is just as quick to go over the easier defenses than go under the bar.

All that being said, I don't think there is a significant difference between low bar vs non-low bar.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Reporting in to offer my support for those like us in these difficult times

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Bill... AGREED, us too...

Let's change the world _together_... ;-)

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Pips... we have your back... stay strong.

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Only if you are talking about driving onto the other teams robot. Many good robots will be releasing the ball from a high position, or have an arch that makes it physically impossible to block their shots. Remember also that robots are essentially protected from contact while any part of their bumper crosses the plane of the outerworks. So these robots could shoot from the outerworks and there really isn't anything that could be done to block their shots.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

ONLY TWO plus 3481 so far to join the Low-Bar Challenged Support Group?!

Wow.

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

A functional robot is a strategic advantage.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I know 2959 Robotarians posted CAD of their tall robot.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

_YES_, Adam. And that includes making sure ALL the breakers are put back in.

Maybe that'll make a difference for us this season...

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Christopher... thank you for that info... I'll PM them to see if they want to join our Support Group.

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Cheezy won't be, but maybe the Canadians will...

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I've always thought we make NICE bumpers...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/kt6ndemocv...rrent.JPG?dl=0

2016 KNIGHTmare.

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

You're from that neck of the woods I guess, but based on the first low bar poll you might be wrong. (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/po...ts&pollid=2577) You can look at the people that answered one way or another by following that link. (3 different 254 contributors voted saying they were not going under the low bar). But you're right down the road from them... Hmmmm.

That said, I think that people have underestimated the value of an unblock-able and accurate shooter from the outer works. Obviously the shooter has to be accurate, but assuming your source boulders is the neutral zone or your secret passage, you can negate almost half the area (the entire enemy courtyard) where effective interference defense can be played. I think if most boulder runners shoot anywhere besides the outerworks safe zone or are blockable while inside that safe zone by a 54" nearby, defense will be a game changer in the elims. Even just a drivetain moving around in the enemy courtyard between the batter and the next boulder would have slowed down almost every robot I've seen video of from this weekend.

So 254 is probably (?) a member of the support group. Which just might be less of a support group and more of an exclusive club than most people realize. :cool: Haha.

Anyways, I would love to see people talk about how this analysis is flawed and what you think is a much more likely meta to emerge as more and more information comes out.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I really don't think top tier teams will be low bar robots. They'll focus much more on being able to solo damage the other defenses (including class C), as well as having the fastest and most accurate high goal cycles/climbs as possible.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Awesome.. lol

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

We are in this category, hopefully it pays off!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

2502 is joining the club

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Thank you Michael for starting this support group. We once saw ourselves being Low-Bar able but when we drove up to it we realized we were just two inches too tall, but we have since gotten comfortable in our own aluminum and now we hope others can too. Take pride in being tall!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

#ThinkTall #TallPower #PowertotheTalls #ImTallYoureNOT #GetShorty

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

1197 is low-bar challenged by choice. OTOH, we have a few tricks up our sleeves, and we aren't scared of Defense #10 (dragons don't burn other dragons).

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Keep in mind that while everyone says "gotta block dem high goal shots" doesn't mean you have to. All the teams at least right now can't make one even if they line up for 30 seconds. Our Robot is about a half of and inch under the height limit and we plan to never be a defense robot. You can still earn that qualification point without the low bar! Besides I see teams being slower at lowbar than Rockwall and Rough Terrain.

But I do love being in this support group. We will tower over other robots and I guess if 1st picks us (not likely) and wants us to play day D... We will.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Welcome to the group, Eric!

#ThinkTall #TallPower #PowertotheTalls #ImTallYoureNOT #GetShorty

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Oh we definitely are not low-bar challenged... our bot could just plow through that, doubt it would even slow us down.... oh... you mean under it... yeah we can't do that. :)

At our practice event we were the biggest bot on the block, kinda like the feeling.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I think 148 falls into the "similar" category and they are NOT a tall robot.

Don't let me down powerhouses!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

I'm 6' 7" and my robot is 4' 6" but it can still go under the low bar... can we still join your club?

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Team 4466 here.

We're in this category too. 4'5" 6 CIM powerhouse! NOTHING can shove us. :yikes:

Defense/blocking? NO PROBLEM!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Well, some 254 members also voted that they will be scoring 0 points solo.
No one really knows for sure that the Cheesy Poofs haven't built a tall defensive robot. For that matter, no one knows for sure that we didn't do the same thing.

I guess everyone will find out soon enough.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Ryan... not sure Trans-Bar bots are eligible for the Support Group since you are not actually challenged.

INTERESTING thing to ponder, though... ;-)

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Well... I was worried about 900's bot not standing out this year... can safely say that won't be a problem. #TeamTall

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

must have really big swerve modules

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Just because a robot is low-bar capable doesn't mean their shots can be easily blocked. I don't see an advantage to not being able to go under the low bar, there are ways to account for the height difference, whether it's a different shooting position or an elevated point of release.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

To be entirely honest, I have no problem with teams that do low bar. I also do not see an issue with teams that shoot from an elevated position to get around the height limit. What I do feel is an issue, is that there will be teams that might not be able to do what they want to do as effectively because of the design constraint of the low-bar.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

We're also a member of #TeamTall

The way we see it, most robots on the field will be low-bar capable, so why would we add to that? It only takes 1 robot to damage the low bar defense, so why (apart from easy traversal), would 3 robots need to center their entire design around going under 1 defense. To me, it seems like a similar situation to the feeder stations last year.

Being tall has some advantages. Want to play defense? Just sit in front of the other robots. Want to play offense? Congrats, you can shoot over most of the other robots on the field. Sure, you could get pushed around if you're playing offense, but there's only one defensive bot on each alliance in any match, so I guess you can just act as a diversion while another robot scores.

Being tall is two sides of the same coin, but tall robots can have a huge advantage. Yes, the low bar is the most 'reliable' of the defenses, but if the other 2 robots on your alliance both have the low bar, it doesn't seem like a big deal to be honest.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

"I subscribe to the law of contrary public opinion: if everyone thinks one thing, then I say, bet the other way."

--Richard "Ricky" Roma - Glengarry Glen Ross (film)

#TeamTall #ThinkTall #TallPower #PowertotheTalls #ImTallYoureNOT #GetShorty

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

How about a low-bar challenged robot blocking your vision?

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Team 2499 is a proud member of this group✋🏻

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

You know, almost all of these robot reveals seem to be setting a low bar for the competition. We can all take solace in that.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Staying strong in these times of change as we are also a Vertically challenged robot (in a good way). We make limbo obsolete.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

reporting in to bring my support for the left handed... I mean low bar challenged teams. :p

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Proud member of #TeamTall!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

#TeamTall #ThinkTall #TallPower #PowertotheTalls #ImTallYoureNOT #GetShorty

Here's our entry to this Support Group I started... a pretty-tall 2016 KNIGHTmare...

APOLOGIES for the messy shop-area, I usually run a much tighter ship but we were _cranking_ to finish TWO twin bots _before_ Bag/Tag Day... a _first_ for us...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aygq...ature=youtu.be

Any comments or input are welcome... we're busy iterating on the practice bot for the next two weeks... expecting to show _more_ at Alamo...

CONGRATS to the Bronc Botz student team members... I'm a proud coach... ;-)

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

#TeamTall

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/42855

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Should reports on successful low-bar challenged robots be posted here to cheer up the support group, or do they deserve their own thread?

Team 1876 BeachBotics just scored 2 high goals and scaled in a dominant performance during their first Week 0.5 match at Palmetto. Or at least I think it was their very tall robot...livestream was a little fuzzy. :cool:

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Post these successes HERE!

We need to keep the movement going...

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

And for their next trick, 1876 scales with a ball on-board, and then shoots a high goal while it's hanging from the rung! :yikes:

I'm in love with this robot.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Wouldn't that be illegal as they are not in contact with the opponent's courtyard carpet?

EDIT: My bad! I missed the part in G39 where it says you can be in contact with the opponents TOWER and still launch a BOULDER.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Lol Jared! (Internet LIES? Never) If it's on the net...It Must Be Absolutely TRUE!

That poll does not even list a response from me, as when it came out I was absolutely dead set against our team making it all fit in that expected teeny tiny package (it was giving me absolute nightmares during what little sleep I was getting in weeks 1 & 2 just trying to figure out how you could squeeze all that you needed to into those very little spaces (and still work in them later that is), and do most everything in the game if absolutely forced to).

But we did, and we have all kinds of space left (at least on our boulder collecting/shooting end, even after handling low bar and all the other defenses, and shooting high/low over anything in front of us up to 4'~9" tall or so, plus scaling the tower via the ever historic Team 60 PTO.

It sure made it a long build season though. Waaaaaaaay too much prototyping! Not enough actual robot building early enough. I think they built 4 robots in the time frame....And have 1.75 to show for it currently.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

____________________________________
Ohhhhhhh, TY for the addition. I missed that built in capability. A last second soft shot! (Our billboard is on the PTO Arm and is against the tower vertically during the scale, shooter is wide open, arc is right, height is right).

But, the first one that misses (bouncing it high/low off the tower or their own robot or the bar), and lands their boulder in another alliance members robot hanging on bar or parked on the batter (that already has a boulder in it), may end many of those last second attempts. Hard lessons may be learned.

It would be a killer to be ahead by a few points in the match, and take a penalty at the last moment due to that, and lose RP's or worse Playoff matches. Hero to zero in 1 press of a button and a bounce.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Competition Week 1 reveals...

Need _MORE_ members in the support group... CHIME IN!!

#TeamTall #ThinkTall #TallPower #PowertotheTalls #ImTallYoureNOT #GetShorty

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

WHAT are some of the LESS obvious _advantages_ to being Low-Bar Challenged in FIRST Stronghold?

--Michael Blake

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

We are a low bar (and discovered this was also most defenses :( ) challenged robot, and we scored 4 high goals in a qualifying match, and I can't remember how many we scored in our second quarterfinal match, 4 or 5, but we still got picked 8th overall!

Just an update for the low bar challenged group. How have you been doing so far?

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

2502 won northern lights. We did 7 or 8 cycles during our first quarter finals match, and did 6 for every other elimination match.

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

So is team 2944!

(Had to quote because the team numbers were too close for me not to lol)

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Team 217 chiming in to join this group! We have been having some great success with a tall bot!

We were 2nd overall pick at the Buckeye Regional (but unfortunately our RoboRio became extremely damaged during our second quarterfinal match). We did manage to score (I believe) 7 high goals in one match! We also scored 70 points individually in another!

Go #TeamTall!

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

Played with 254, trust me they have no trouble with it, nore did 1678 that giant bot flattens quite well

Re: Low-Bar Challenged Robots - Support Group
 

We played our first event in St Joe and the low bar thing wasn't an issue. 95% of the robots were low bar. But we were a tall robot that was blind, none of our cameras worked until day 2. We got one working for 1/2 of a match, but then the CF broke the lens out of our camera.

The 2nd day though... both cameras working, so we could shoot finally. We made 7 shots in 1 matches and two of the highest scores during quals were from us and our alliance partners.

We only missed 2 shots on that 2nd day. One went straight through from one side to the other and the other one was just rushed. One of the shots even had a robot slam into us as we were shooting breaking one of our arms off (causing us a foul) but we made the shot. :)

Being tall is nice. We have our climb done except for some minor testing and look forward to unleashing the "Swiss Army Beast" at Lansing. :)