Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Last Friday Update of the 2016 season!

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...Updates/13.pdf

Interesting addition of a Blue Box under Section 5.5.3 REFEREE Interaction, T19:

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Well that's going to be annoying.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

"Process Improvement"? Seriously?

How could this possibly increase consistency? How is anyone supposed to know if things are more consistent if they don't even know what's being called? How are teams supposed to avoid fouls if they don't know how they got them?

I frankly don't understand how this could possibly be a good idea. Lots of heartbroken teams, lots of confusion, fewer prevented fouls, all for what?

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Seems like a pretty bad change from my view. Like because of some potentially bad calls every couple times a year, the bar for all events will be lowered just so that they are all consistent?

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

This is ridiculous. This must be a joke like the 10th defense, right? right?

How can they increase consistency across events if you completely abandon record keeping to see what is being called and how?

And so does this mean rather then a traditional match where they announce scores and say "Blue alliance won 25-10 and there was a foul on team XXX for violation XXX for extending outside the field" after a match they will just be saying there were 3 fouls on the red alliance, they lost because of it, but who knows what they were for because the referees don't recall :confused:

How in this in any way, shape, or form better for accountability, teams correcting the error/knowing what they did wrong, or for the viewers watching the matches?

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

To what level of detail were referees previously instructed to record the details of fouls / tech fouls?

I think all teams have a reasonable expectation that referees should be able to say at a high level, "This robot got this penalty for doing this thing." At the same time, no team should expect a 20 page report. If the intent of this blue box was to make it clear that no 20 page reports will be issued, I think that's fine. But as written, having no expectation to be told which robot incurred the penalty is a big step backwards in consistency. In my experience, a reasonable percentage of teams at events do not know the rules very well & may have no clue that what they are doing is causing the fouls... the only way to stop the fouls is to inform them!

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

"Process Improvement"

By definition, that's supposed to, ya know, improve something.

I definitely think FIRST dropped the ball on this one and will regret making this decision. I predict the majority of teams taking issue with this.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Hah, I was wondering how they'd deal with that. This game has the potential of being penalty crazy - push three balls into the other team's secret passage while your robot itself goes in there, and that's like three tech fouls and a couple regular fouls too. I can see it getting nasty with rookie teams doing dumb stuff and the referee spending all their time writing down penalties and not seeing my defense crossing. I really hope there aren't many penalties, but I see this game being a potential powder keg with the penalties. I'd assume I can still ask "what were all the penalties on blue alliance?" and being given a general, "lots of techs for balls in the passage, several for tossing balls over defenses, and a few for getting touched while in the opponent's passage." Maybe we won't be told exactly who committed the foul and exactly why, but I figure the alliance will know.

Crossing my fingers that FIRST knows what they're doing. :confused:

-G

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

This is probably just giving an example for the "extended and egregious" flag in the Violation field, which awards a red card.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

It's being presented as a change, and a reduction in the documentation. This means that in addition to the 2014 state of affairs when a remarkable number of teams (esp HPs) never seemed to know or care that they were fouling several times a match, we will also have teams that know and care that it happened, but don't know what they have to fix.

The situation will be more consistent between the teams that care and the teams that don't.

Actually, it's the other way around. If you were up against a rapidly scoring machine, it might have been worthwhile to hold a pin all match drawing fouls to keep the opposing robot from scoring (not likely, but possible). This puts a brake on such activity.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Brilliant. Just brilliant.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I've said this before but lack of communication between refs and teams is #1 reason I won't ever ref for FRC, I love reffing robotics events but FRC makes it so hard for refs to actually teach teams how to game is supposed to be played to to communicate with them at all.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I pray that there isnt an event that a foul changes the outcome of an alliance winning/losing that either/both sides dont know how they were assessed.
While we have never been negatively affected, especially back in 2014, I can see myself being very upset it it did happen not knowing why.
Fingers crossed.....for everyone.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I believe this is indeed a step in the correct direction. I haven’t taken notes during a match since 2011. If I’m not doing it, and another referee is, we aren’t watching the game in the same way. Referees should make calls immediately as they see them, and then move on to the rest of the match. Dwelling on each means missing other things.

Let’s look at this game from the perspective of a referee. The refs are in charge of scoring again this year, and there are only so many eyes to go around (all fouls and outer works scoring are manual this year). The refs will be taxed enough trying to keep score and keep play in line. Personally, I’d rather have a ref lose track of which foul they called than miss a defense crossing due to writing it down.

The training and testing the referees take is thorough, and the head referees are better informed than ever. FIRST had all the head referees up at the NH scrimmage to discuss how their crews would call fouls this year. That’s brand new!

The refs are volunteers. They’re not vindictive monsters out to rig matches. If you ask about fouls, they’ll be able to help you and explain what happened. It’s their job. This change is to allow refs to do exactly that, their job.

Take this opportunity to know the rules, study up, and present an educated argument if you ever need to enter the question box.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

This is a great change, it's just like football now. In football, when one team gets a penalty, the referee just moves the ball without explaining why and everyone is just fine with it.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

*throws challenge flag*

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

We've run into head referees that apparently don't even read team updates so maybe we can cross our fingers and hope to come out on top here.

I kinda get it, I just see a lot of decisions made in FIRST that I disagree with summed up as disregarding a middle-ground solution that everyone can be happy with in favor of the easy route :/

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

But referees in football just throw a flag and watch the rest of the play, which will only be around 5 seconds. They're calling fouls in 5 second intervals, not 2 minutes. If football refs had to document the foul during the play then they could miss out on important events. I don't agree with the update, but the reasoning makes sense.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Man if this is the 11th defense, I can't wait too see what happens next.

RIP teams who don't record matches.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

In the past when I called a foul, I can tell you what happened, but I would be hard pressed to remember which robot/human player committed the foul.

Hopefully the Alliances will still know, in general, which fouls were called. You may not know which team committed the foul.

I presume Refs will still point and wave a flag when a foul is committed. That will give you some indication of who/when of a foul. Have your Drive Team's Coach watch the Ref in the zone where your robot is.

Some of the more nuanced fouls are going to give teams fits. I can see teams trying to pick up a ball in the Neutral Zone, and accidentally pushing the boulder into the opposing team's secret passage. If you don't watch the Ref, you may never know you were called on the foul..

Worse yet, the team drives into the SP following the boulder. Another Foul. Then to add insult to injury, the robot gets the ball, and then goes back into the neutral zone. Another foul.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

As in football, "Let's go to the instant replay" !! There are enough video captures going on. Easy enough to put a couple of GoPro cameras on the field for FTAs to manage, so if there is a REALLY BIG issue, we can go to the recording. Delete the recordings within "n" matches after. And as in red challenge flags, any team just gets 1 or 2 for an entire competition. For playoffs, any alliance gets 1. If you are in your third district, you get zero.

Just sayin'

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Oh End-Of-The-World CDenizens... you never fail to entertain...

It seems like this is a +1 for the refs' workload, and since the refs will have more focus on the field events it will be +2 for the teams. There are a lot of niche or fast ways to deal with defenses that 5 refs can easily miss if they're worried about scribbling down context and rule numbers.

I've never had a question go un-answered immediately following a match. If it's 2-3 matches later, all bets are off - even if the refs wrote something down.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Recording the video is easy. Reviewing the video is a whole different story. Retrieve the videos, find the spot on the video, review it full speed, review it in slow motion, zoom to specific part of the screen, side by side simultaneous views, .... Multiply that by the number of cameras...

If you are the NFL, you can invest millions in the technology, have a team of people slicing and dicing the videos for the ref's, and it still takes 2 minutes to review a call.

Ain't gonna happen.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Keeping the referees' eyes on the field more is a good thing, and it's still reasonable to expect them to remember most fouls from the immediately previous match.

If I'm choosing my battles, I'd rather have the call made right in the first place more often instead of having detailed feedback and written records explaining exactly why the wrong call was made. So this very small change is a very small improvement.

If we wanted to improve the consistency and quality of refereeing in a meaningful way, we'd have to do something other than a wording change in the training. That might include paid referees or increasing the number of field volunteers so we can separate the scorekeeper and referee roles.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I have a feeling this year will be similar to 2011 as far as sheer number of fouls. Remember that the refs are also responsible for scoring the crossed defenses.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

What Steve said. 5 seconds is still a pin, AND that includes the time it takes you to move at least 6' away (you are still considered pinning the robot if you are within 6' of it).

What it does clarify: If you pin for 15 seconds, you are getting a red card and disqualified from the match (or DQ the entire alliance during Eliminations). Team's won't be able to complain about the Red Card (was it really egregious) if they pinned a robot for 15 seconds.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

When I used to be a ref, I was always instructed to specifically go FIND AND TALK TO THE TEAM that I called a foul on, no matter how insignificant or obvious the penalty was. We want teams to play at their absolute best and if a team has no idea they are doing something wrong, I think they may have some room to improve.

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I won't be mad about this if it means defense crossings are called reliably and consistently. I still have flashbacks to '14 and assists just being flat out missed/made up.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

This is my bigger concern. Fouls will be very confusing to the audience - especially if they decide a match or even an event and it isn't announced. I can't see that happening where someone calls a foul and says 'oh I forgot what I called' but this allows it.

Also just a general comment; Refs are volunteers - lay off them. No one is out to get you.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I share concerns with the group of you as far as not being able to inform teams what actually happened when a foul was called. There will definitely be times that this decides a match and will be very annoying for the parties involved.

All that being said, I do think the emphasis on calling things right and keeping focus on the game at all times will create a positive benefit. Hopefully there are no missed defensive crossings, boulders are being tracked properly, etc.

I'm very cautiously optimistic this will create some improvement as far as calling the game, as its played, properly. Unfortunately, being called with a foul and not being able to figure out what you did wrong will be very frustrating to teams.


-Brando

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

The team/robot's coach will need to be more aware this season, behind the glass: such that it is noticed when a referee is waving their red/blue flag at the robot incurring the foul/tech foul and pointing at your robot.
That means the foul is on you. (Coach will have to recognize this at the moment it happens however). Points awarded to the other side. I'm sure, that if the student team member approaches the referee question box (if the penalty/rule # is not immediately recognized) at the end of the match at least some helpful information can/will be passed to the team incurring the penalty.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

lol.

I wish this were more surprising than it is. Refs should demand better from the rules and from the GDC.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

This actually doesn't really do much improvement on the foul system.
It is one thing to have a foul system but on a low visibility map to have a foul system and no feedback lets run a scenario.
Team 1 on an alliance gets 3 tech fouls.
2 tech fouls come from launching a boulder while still in contact with the secret passage, 1 comes from contacting an opponent in the secret passage.
The team only sees the tech foul where they contact the opponent in the secret passage.
Unless some outsider to the team notifies them that they were shooting illegally, the assumption I would make from that teams perspective is that we just made contact with the opposing robot. I'm sure others would handle it differently but for those of you who would handle it in a similar would be stuck doing things wrong and not being able to learn from it.
That isn't healthy for the game, its like playing a board game with someone who lost the instructions to the game and makes up rules.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I believe people are interpreting this incorrectly. "Any reasonable questions is fair game in the Questions Box, and Head REFEREES will do good faith efforts to provide helpful feedback." Isn't this what has been done for the last few years? Don't expect the a ref to know that at the 67th second a particular team violated G-26 but I've always seen referees advise teams on violations. Actually, I've always been instructed to reach out to teams on preventable infractions, particularly in practice/early qualifiers.

Most of the violations I have called have been due to drivers not knowing the rules. The best thing any team could possibly do is have their drivings know the game manual inside and out. Make sure you alliance members know the rules and that your strategy is compliant. This can't be stressed enough.

Best way to avoid penalties? Don't break the rules.

Have a little faith. The training is much more extensive than it has been in the past. I've also noticed the volunteer selection for referees has been better too; qualified individuals who are familiar with FIRST and understand the events. As volunteers we don't want to send a team home over something silly. That being said students and mentors should STAY CALM, know what they are contesting, reach the question box in a timely manner, continue to remain calm, and professionally present your questions.

Edit: Today's blog update supplements well.
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...-Communication

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

I mean I guess I'd be fine with this if each team has a spy instead of one team per alliance.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

This is an incorrect interpretation. Plain and simple.

Nowhere in that blue box does it say the refs will decrease feedback. Teams can get feedback from the refs via the head ref and the question box. It's been that way for at least 6 years now. The head ref will be willing to answer any pertinent and prompt questions about a match, they're just not going to take their eyes off the field to write each and every foul down.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

The only questions I have for refs is based on the details of a foul. "What is the foul, when did it occur".
Those two pieces of information are literally all I need to know. I can read the rule book and see what they gave me a foul for, and I can see when it happens and see if I someone on the team had a better angle on what happened. But team update 13 says.
It specifically says " As a result we don't expect refs to recall details of what fouls are made when and for whom."
They have just cut the only feedback I need from them.
Authority is like a fly swatter, if you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and you show me the fly swatter with bits of deadly insect on it I'm cool.
If you hit me in the back of the head with a fly swatter and don't have a reason I'm pissed.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

If you ask the head ref right after a match for the details of a foul, I'm sure they will work with the refs and do their best to provide that information.

The change this year is that instead of taking time to make notes on each infraction, the refs can keep their eyes on the field and do their job better. That doesn't mean that they are going to instantly forget everything that happened in the match.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

The read I can get from "we don't expect to recall details" is incredibly disappointing. With all the work on the field, all the money sunk into the field and the display, with all the shiny and pretty. Somehow ref's couldn't be supplied with a way to mark an instance of time and a team? Real happy for the audience this year, but the audiences pleasure is starting to come at the price of the students who this is for.
Minimum you get a UI with 4 on a device synced with the match timer. 2 red buttons two blue buttons, 2 foul buttons, 2 tech foul buttons. Push a button give a team the appropriate penalty and give it a time stamp.
I'm no programmer but I feel like thats a fairly simple app to create considering all the scouting Apps I see out there.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

It's not the app that's the problem, it's the human running the app. There are a lot of fouls you can get this year, and they're all named with a letter-number code. It is too taxing for someone to remember all the foul codes, find them on the screen, and assign them to the right robot... while also entering the scoring information for defense crossing and actually catching fouls as well.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Yeah that sounds pretty bad.
Why wouldn't it just be mark when during a match a foul or tech foul happened, mark if its a foul or tech foul, and post match if a ref remembers what foul it was they could assign it to the appropriate time stamp.
It doesn't sound like they are using an app for match scoring it sounds like they are using a digital menu one would use behind the counter of a fast food joint to place orders to track match data.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Ah, so are you saying the refs shouldn't record exactly which team broke which rule and why during a match? What you're describing is almost exactly what is done, minus the timestamps and the post-match association of fouls.

They use custom software written specifically for the FMS and this game.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Would a time stamp in 150 seconds of game play be that beneficial? Chances are you want this time stamp to compare to video which will under no circumstances be reviewed by officials. If the review is for internal benefits (which I totally understand) all you really need to know is the infraction and you can fish it out on your own. From personal experience I've delayed entering fouls until certain another ref hasn't entered or there is a lull in game play so I don't miss anything. The stamp could be way off. Sometimes I'll remember fouls in terms of "red robot with sick powder coating just pinned too long". Taking the time to track the numbers on the bumper is something I would do after the match. Entering this information real time would take too long. Even with a revised ref interface (which it is this year) it's still a lot of information to enter.

Think texting and driving. You actually lose a lot of time when you're entering fouls and scoring.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Absolutely I can't actually think of a time when note taking is prioritized over the current even except for in research. In soccer when a penalty occurs they create a break and a space and time where they can accurately record things and assess the situation. Most child care places train so that when a medical emergency happens you tend to the emergency and later fill out an injury form. In practice this would be healthier for a game because it would translate to refs pointing out flaws during a match and moving to correct them which on its own might be more then enough for someone on drive team to go "oh wait thats against the rules". If they use a custom built FMS for the game and they do use a letter number code for fouls which the input into software then they actually do have all the information they are currently saying the refs do not have in update 13. It just doesn't add up to me.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Point of clarification, there are no codes on the ref UI. Just buttons for fouls and tech fouls

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Where is the documentation for the foul/tech procedure?

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

Do mean documentation related to the scoring panels? It is only available to assigned volunteers through VIMS, the volunteer portal. It is not distributed publicly.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

That'd explain why all my digging found dust.

Re: Team Update 13 (2016)
 

For fouls, there are 4 buttons: Red Foul, Blue Foul, Red Tech Foul, Blue Tech Foul. You push the button, and the number of fouls increase.

What I would like is: Another Ref who's job it is to listen to the radio, and write down the fouls as they are called out. Maybe the Assistant Score Keeper (I've been one of those, and didn't have much to do).

I can talk and watch the game at the same time. I probably can't call out the G number, but I can say: Blue Pinning, Red more than one boulder. Sometimes I might be able to get the robot number. Since I have to point and waive the flag first, the time stamp (if the Scribe Ref can get it), will be later than the foul. But at least it gives you an idea of where in the game the foul was called (if you recorded it and want to look at the replay).