Mentors not wanting to stay
 

One of our biggest problems this year is our mentors not wanting to stay and letting us work on the robot. We have had several times where we asked them to stay later and we are told we are done when they want to go home. We only have three mentors and two of them rotate days to watch us. We have all so had days where we did not have school, not weather related, and we asked them to come in and they wouldn't. We currently have the robot in the bag not completed that we bagged around 6 o'clock yesterday because they did not want to stay later. Several people on our team feel like they are there to just baby sit us. Any time we have tried to talk to them it seems like the response always is you will do what I say and usually is in a raised tone of voice.

I was just wondering if any other teams have had problems with there mentors and them wanting to stay. I know it is hard on three of them but they knew what they signed up for.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

What did they sign up for?

Keep in mind your mentors are donating their time to be at the shop with you and not every mentor is capable of staying all hours a team could possibly meet. Maybe it is something to have a team discussion over but keep an open mind to what your mentors can or cannot give. Just like sponsors you need mentors to run.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

One of the hardest parts of mentoring an FRC team is balancing one's personal schedule. Many teams want to meet right after school (usually around 3:00)... but many mentors can't get off work until 5:00. Sometimes schools have vacation/holiday that doesn't match with mentors employees, so students want to meet but mentors may need to work. Many mentors also have families, and need to balance their involvement with the team with actually seeing their families once in a while. It's tough, it's really really tough.

I suggest talking with your mentors about their other time commitments. Work to understand why they are committing to the schedule they have so far, and express your gratitude for their time. Work to make it less confrontational and more constructive.

Then you can talk with them about your desire to expand the program. Ask them for help recruiting more mentors - with more mentors you can probably meet longer and get more done!

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

1. Are the students really being productive? If my team is not being productive for several hours and then wants to stay late, why should I?

If I have students that are busting their butts and want to finish a task, I'll stay as late as needed.

2. I'm assuming you are based out of a school? If so, you need to find the teacher that is crazy enough to put in the required time.

Petition your school district to give the teacher a coaching stipend. To be a successful team you need a teacher that is willing to make this a year long adventure and a stipend may help you recruit one.

3. It takes a special kind of lunatic to be the school sponsor/mentor for an FRC team; when you get one be thankful.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

To a degree, mentors are certainly there to babysit(in the sense that there needs to be an adult around, you can't just leave a bunch of kids unattended while working with potentially dangerous equipment).

I can't speak for all of them, but I think mentors already give as much as they can. If they have other obligations or simply just want to call it a day for whatever reason then that should be respected. If you've already tried talking to them about it and they can't fill that need for the team then try to explore other options like finding more mentors or just dealing with the situation as best you can.

I can't say I know your teams situation but when I see kids just screwing around most of the day(or most of build season for that matter) instead of doing the things they were supposed to be working on then the last thing I'm going to be doing is staying longer than I planned on.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I know in our situation, most of our mentors are college students so we can't always be at meetings and the school limits when the team can meet (Monday and Wednesday afternoons, Friday nights, and Saturdays). I'd like to stay later but the fact of matter is we have obligations to attend to as well. I'd talk to your mentors about your situation and see if you can make a plan for what needs to be achieved at each meeting.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

First of all, being in the district is a good thing. In accordance of section 5.5.2 of the admin manual, you have 6 hours to work on your robot on the 7 days before a competition. So you still have 6 hours to work on your robot before your first competition.

Secondly, that is sad to hear that your mentors don't want to stay over but remember, they are volunteers, and they do need their time. My biggest tip would be to have members on your team do as much as possible at home by themselves. I'm not sure what all your team does, but try doing as much CAD, Scouting, PR, and other prep work at home. Basically, since your time at the shop is limited, only do the stuff that can only be done at the shop in that time. Make sense?

Lastly, I'm not sure if you were on the team last year but your team had a heck of a rookie season last year. You guys got to worlds last year by being good at mid season changes. Your robot started out last year pretty good but you guys made a major change part way through that let you play at an even higher level. I bet your team can do the same this year. Don't let a bad first competition performance put a damp on your team.

If you have any questions or want to talk more in private, fee free to PM me.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I know they have a busy schedules and they have family. Its not like we have asked them to stay late all six weeks. It has just been the last couple days and for all of them not to be there on bag day and not wanting to stay late on day up set some of the member on the team. The fact that we only needed one part ,which broke that day, to be finished and they would not let us go get the part mad us a little mad. We are only a 15 minute drive from andy mark and could have easily got the part and fixed the robot. I personally and on the drive team and we have had hardly any practice time. We did go to a week zero event but left fairly early because we had some major problems. I was on the drive team last year and las year we had a different mentor who always stayed late and two keep in mine two of our mentors are teachers and the other is a retired electrical, so having practice around there work schedule is not a problem.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Like I was saying, you have 6 hours to work on the robot at your shop in the 7 days leading up to your first event. Also, remember that you can work on your robot as much as you want to (fitting within 30 lbs of prefabricated parts) at competitions. If it is just one minor part, you should have it fixed within your 6 hours of unbag time.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Does this include the pit setup day before the first day of quals (Thursday)?

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Here's what the game manual says:
I believe this is 6 hours before competitions. Not including pit setup. So my guess is if you have competition matches on Friday and Saturday and pit set up is Thursday Night, I don't think you can work on your robot Thursday night. Remember, this is only for district competitions. Not regionals.

Edit: The admin manual also states that you can work on your robot at competitions when your lock up form has been seen by an inspector and the pits have been opened for robot work. I believe most events allow robot work on pit setup night. If they approve work in the pits on pit set up night, this is NOT including your 6 hours of Unbag time.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Have you asked your mentors what it would take to get them more personally invested?

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Someone UNDERSTANDS!!! :cool: :cool: :cool:

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I understand your frustration, I was on a team in high school where we had a fantastic group of mentors who, on the weekends, were willing to stay with us as long as we were being productive. On school nights we closed the shop before 11 usually so we had to go home and sleep or do homework.

The team that I now mentor, as a college student has a very different schedule. Our kids don't get out of school until roughly 4:15. Secondly we have kids coming together from 3 different high schools. So we have very limited time to work during the week because we have to bring the kids in right after school and then send them home earlier than we would want to so they can go homework and get some actual sleep. On the weekends however it is a very different story, we obviously have more free time but, we have very few mentors for our team. We have 4 adults that are there most nights and 3 college students, myself included who are there. With few people its hard for us to put in the long number of hours on the weekends to try and make up for the lost time.

Just in the past 5 days, not counting today I spent nearly every minute that I wasn't in class or sleeping at the shop, and I was burnt out after last night. So while I may want to stay later on the weekends and do more work I know that I just can't handle doing that all the time.

My suggestion is that you really find out what is holding them back from spending more time at the shop and see what you can do to change the situation.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Consider asking for more parents to get involved to serve as mentors. A good number of our team's mentors have students on the team so that helps keep them motivated and interested. It also helps spread the load when you need adults to be present for certain things (i.e. running to AndyMark to pick up a part.)

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Take a step back for a moment. The life of an adult (mentor) is quite a bit different than the life of a student. The last thing you do to a volunteer who is spending their own time to help is to tell them they aren't doing enough. I don't want to come down hard on you, but you seem pretty thankless toward folks who just spent 6 weeks devoting all their free time to helping you.

While 15 minutes, 30 minutes, or even 1 hour may not mean much to you, that's the difference between seeing my kids and wife or not seeing them (I get home 15 minutes before their bed times). Likewise, as an engineer, I have to be in at work at hours that blow most team members minds. 1 hour is the difference between getting some sleep or continuing to accrue a sleep deficit that ends up with me getting sick at least once a season.

Take it easy on your mentors. Make it fun so they come back, and try to develop MORE of them so you don't burn out the ones you have.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

As an insanely dedicated mentor on 1678, I have this to say. I have lost too much sleep this season to remember how much sleep I have lost. I'm certainly on the younger side of FRC mentors, but it really just comes down to what each person is able to take on. Everyone has a different level of personal bandwidth for their lives and sometimes they just can't do everything, so they have to choose where their energy goes. Most people tend to favor older commitments and obligations and there is nothing wrong with that.

I work at a job where I can tell my boss that I am taking a day off for robotics and it's no big deal. I can come into work between 5 and 10am work 8 hours and leave for the day. My boss understands how important the team is to my life and that my mentoring continues to push the bounds of my knowledge and skill as an engineer. I am so ridiculously lucky and thankful as an employee, but not everyone can have or find that level of flexibility in their lives.

When I lost my wife in 2013 I was lost as person and I just needed something to focus my energy on to distract myself from having lost her. So I made the decision to help people, do something I was good at, and surround myself with people who care about me. And with that decision I poured my heart and soul into mentoring 1678 and making as much impact as I could. I believe that most of the fanatically dedicated mentors out there have similarly profound emotions in regards to their teams and FRC. So I guess my point is that it's always a complex and personal issue where someone decides to spend their time and with whom.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

We have had similar issues this year. At the end of the day, mentors are usually under appreciated. Believe it or not, mentors are REAL PEOPLE and have lives. Be grateful for the time they give you. For next year, I would talk with them BEFORE build season to create a rough timeline so you know the time you have and the speed you need to work. Maybe overtime if they see your dedication, they will naturally dedicate themselves more as well. I wish there was a magical answer to give your team the support they need but this is just something you will need to work around. Most importantly don't treat your mentors like they aren't doing enough. sass and attitude will make things worse. Hope everything works out with your robot
- Andrew

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I apologize in advance for those that will not agree with what I am about to write and if you have issues: be aware on this I speak for myself.

I -REALLY- dislike that the 6 week build season opens up mentors to criticism that they don't 'spend enough time' with their students. It's frankly insulting and sometimes actually dangerous to the scale of the opportunity mentoring presents and I think it hurts people sometimes physically.

I am personally a very busy person and it is possible that a personal crisis for me could have a global economic impact. During a build season I often have to pick between simply finding 10 minutes to do anything and going to help someone. Then I take the chance that when I go there: now I can help, but maybe the students have other priorities. Worse I spread around my e-mail, try to get on Slack, check ChiefDelphi and yet I have noticed that people do not consider me available to help unless I am physically present at a place that reduces my access to the Internet in such a way that I am then in jeopardy of creating personal risk. Even more frustrating if I get interrupted while I am there, again, who am I to have responsibilities.

I manage engineering teams on an International level. Do you think it would be acceptable for them not to work unless I am standing on top of them? Has anyone seen my name or any of my company logo on any MORT robot, or any FRC robot at all, despite my money pouring into FIRST on and off for 20 years? I often don't even get a receipt for my donations and I am hardly the only one.

The only thing I have come to dislike more than this 6 week build season over the 20 years I've been involved with FIRST is that it's -NOT- really a 6 week build season at all. So it's not like telling the people that depend on me outside of FIRST it's -just- 6 weeks is true. No it's easily 20-30 weeks for me with periods of much lower activity during the summer because we run into April and we start up again in September.

-THIS- is the reason I have decided to be more a sponsor and mentor in a less 'always on way'. I personally refuse to accept the pretense of the 6 week build season any more. It may work for some of you but this is toxic to me. I can rally my resources to build a Makerspace with the necessary resources to work whenever it is possible in a year. Freeing myself to actually have a life. I can still give FIRST money and volunteer. Heck I can even create opportunity for the students like this they don't have now.

At least this new approach for me allows me to think of this in hours committed to mentoring versus hours being dragged into a crisis beyond my control with implications far beyond the understanding of other people.

I don't know the OPs team. I do not know how many other commitments to FIRST your mentors may or many not have. However at least for me I do know that Mount Olive High School is now one of the few, possibly the only school anywhere, that hosts jrFLL, FLL, FTC, FRC and has 2 FRC teams in the same school. So to my fellow mentors and students that read this and for those outside of our MAR circle: when you think someone is just not giving up enough - it is a commendable thing to sacrifice for another in little ways (a meal, a hug, a trip to the store in your car) let alone bleed for them, often in silence, as I have seen some mentors do. Just never you mind if you win - it is often literally that you tried at all and if more people gave just a little this world would be a better place. Some of us have time, some of us have money, some of us are just positive people to be around - whatever the balance of the sacrifice is - this should not be about a few people cleaning up the mess of millions.

Signed,
The digital janitor

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Before you ask others for their time, make sure you are maximizing the time you already have. If that isn't enough then consider looking ahead and saying "well we aren't meeting these goals so we should see if we can stay later do any mentors have any time in the future that they can stay later." Sometimes mentors say no because they can't not because they want to.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

As a student I never really appreciated just how hard it was to be a mentor while working full time. Let me tell you, it's freaking exhausting. And if I saw students whining "oh they don't put in enough time" I'd quit. In fact, if I were your mentors and I saw this thread, I'd probably quit.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

The easy solution to this is recruit more mentors. The school could be a road block, but more mentors would probably solve your human capacity issue.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Sounds easy.
The town of Walton had 1,049 citizens in 2010. It is a rural community; Lewis Cass posted a population of 718 students last year across the six grades in the school.

The struggle is real, but there are options.

There are several teams within a short drive of 5402 headquarters. I have found all of the Howard and Cass County teams to be very helpful and friendly. Feel free to reach out to them for any assistance you may need.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

If you are just looking for more time to build I would have to agree with Ryan, try getting the parents involved. Not all mentors need to have an engineering background, they just need to keep the team on task, safe and quell any personal conflicts. The engineering mentors can provide guidance before they leave for the day.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

So, your mentors don't want to stay late? You should thank them for being there at all, not complain about them not meeting your expectations. If you only have 3 hours a day to work on the robot, then you plan accordingly and work smart and quickly with the time you do have.

Remember that your mentors are people too usually with lives outside of FRC that they would to at least maintain during build season.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I have to agree with everything listed above....

I am one of those insane teachers who puts in way too much time with the club. Consider:

There are 24 x 7 = 168 hours in a week.
Teaching takes 60 of those hours
I put in another 50 with robotics during build/competition season

This leaves me with about 58 hours a week...Let's say I try to sleep 5 hrs a night... I now have 13 hours a week to:
Talk to my wife
Spend time with my kids
Help around the house (chores, repairs)
Eat
Relax
Oh... I do have few friends, too...

What do I get paid? $2000 for the year... This does not cover the extra I spend on gas and meals out...

One of the biggest challenges of keeping FRC teams going is finding enough mentors to keep it all moving without burning them out.

Be kind to you mentors. They are exhausted and you need them.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Agreed MrJ but I don’t get a stipend. It is all volunteer on my end.
OP I can only speak for my team and myself. I am a teacher and the only school related team leader. We have three engineering mentors. I am in my 9th year of FRC and our mentors have been with us for at least five. In past seasons we have all been of the mindset, 'Let them work until...' This year is different for us and I am going to tell you why.

Last year more and more often I would look up at 9 or 10 to see engineers working and students playing games. Two of our mentors have children. One of them has a daughter who has had medical issues since she was born and last year was diagnosed with Asperger; to top it off he is a full time engineer AND working on his Master’s Degree. By the end of build season last year he was exhausted.

Over the summer the mentors and I came to some decisions about build season schedule this year. Originally it was supposed to simply transform to, 'if you are playing then go home'. Then my personal life blew apart in October and November so badly that we almost did not field a team this year. My mother-in-law died of cancer in October. In November my husband was diagnosed with cancer. I struggled with my decision on what to do with team this year. I wanted to take a break but my husband insisted that we field a team because he knows how much it means to the kids; kids just like you. I agreed on one condition; build season schedule was drastically altered. Instead of working ‘until’ they got 4 – 6 M – F and then 10 – 5 on Saturday. I told the team up front and was honest with them and they understood. I stayed late with them on a total of three nights this year; two week nights until 7 and one Friday until 10. I have fought teenage drama between some team members worse this year than most. I am already tired from teaching roughly 100 students per day, sick with worry about my husband who is still working full-time and gets home more and more tired every day, and to top it off have been fighting a cold myself the past two weeks.

On Monday I sent an email to the parents and formally told my team that for the first time ever I will not be able to attend our only competition event with them because about that time my husband will be undergoing 4.5 weeks of radiation therapy. I will not leave him to go through that alone for one day let alone three. I love my team but right now my family has to come first.

I understand that you don’t feel heard by your mentors. I understand that you don’t feel like these mentors are as ‘dedicated’ as your mentor last year because they haven’t stayed late. But please ask yourself and your team these questions;

1. 1. What happened to your mentor who would ‘stay until’ last year? Did they move schools or just leave the team? If they just left the team then why? Was it because they didn’t feel appreciated or that their time was valued?
2. 2. What is going on in the lives of the mentors that you currently have? Is there something that maybe you guys don’t know?
3. 3. Is your team using their time with the mentors wisely?
4. 4. Do you realize that your teacher mentors have jobs that require a tremendous amount of time outside the school day to plan for the next school day and grade assignments? None of that happens in a vacuum. The time we spend planning, grading assignments, and attending required conferences is insane.

I do not mean for this to be a rant OP I just want you to look at this from a mentor perspective. I want you and your team to open your minds and hearts to what you may not know about your mentors. How many times did any of your team leave early or not come to a build meeting to study for a major test the next day?

TLDR; Have your or your team taken the time to really understand the lives of your mentors and what is happening in them? Do they have a sick family member? Do they have a child involved in activities that they don’t want to miss? Do they have big projects going on at work? We are people just like you and the decisions we make impact our families, teams, and jobs. We do this because we love this. We do this for you. Please, try to understand the toll this takes on us personally because every moment we spend with you is a moment we are missing in the lives of our spouses, children, grandchildren and other loved ones.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

3 mentors is not enough to effectively run a team. You'll want to pull more mentors into the fold and find a way to get mentors personally invested in your team.

I don't know how your team operates, but I've noticed increasing intrusions from smartphones and other devices. As a mentor this infuriates me. Your mentors may feel that "if the students waste all of their time during build season, I don't want to stay late to help them make up for it." Would you continue to invest in a company if they squandered your initial investment?

This may not be the issue at all... just a possible one.

There may also be more going on behind the scenes that you don't/won't know about. Mentors have been threatened with divorce, gotten extremely ill, fallen behind at work, etc due to their time commitments on FRC teams.

Remember that it is MUCH easier to be a student on an FRC team than a mentor. However hard the season has been on you as a student, imagine at least double that challenge for your mentors. I say this having been a student for four years and a full-time mentor for six.

The way it has worked for us in the New England district is we get the unbag time the week before the event. Now the matches do not start until Saturday morning for us, and load in isn't until 5:00 pm that Friday, and pits are open till either 8:00 or 10:00 depending on venue

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I can only wholeheartedly endorse this sentiment. Do your team parents believe that the program is a babysitting service, or are they willing to put effort into raising their children? The strongest indicator of educational success is parental involvement. If the parents are not willing to get involved, then the program is less likely to be successful. Check with the school district about screening parents (in California it requires getting fingerprinted). I started as a parent and have continued on.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Absolutely get more mentors. It's a hard job to take, but find dedicated parents/teachers, etc.
I saw this earlier in the thread, but if your school is willing to offer to pay your lead mentor(s) the same money they pay sports coaches, that should definitely incentivize it.
Also, (and I know this is probably against school policy, insert disclaimer here) we've had students in the past, typically seniors, stay and work without a mentor. I'm not saying you should do this, but if it's a few days before bag and you're desperate...
You should always have someone 18+ around, as well as someone who understands safety procedures for all tools/equipment. I'm assuming your team captain has access to emergency contact information (if they don't, they should anyways), and if you have that around, you should be good.
By all means, recruiting mentors is your best bet, try reaching out to engineers/software people in your community, chances are if they have a genuine interest in these things (even if it's not their day job), they'll be more likely to want to help, and potentially even willing to put in the long, grueling hours.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Then for the sake of my 401k, stop posting on Chiefdelphi & get back to work!!!

I will echo every other mentor's comments -- it gets much more difficult to mentor as you get older. When I was a student, I wanted to meet every possible minute of every day. As an adult, you have to balance many other commitments. As others have said, the best way to make your mentors stick around is A) get more mentors & B) use every minute you've got productively.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

"Spheres of Influence". Control what is in your control (your actions, how you spend your time), influence what you can influence (encourage others to work hard, spend time wisely, stay longer hours), and try not to worry about the things for which you have neither control nor influence! This may seem obvious, but frequently time is wasted worrying/complaining about things that are outside of our control while things that could have materially improved a situation are neglected.

As a side note, if the team you're part of isn't a good fit for your goals and you have no options to change the situation, it may be time to look for a different team.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

What 401k :ahh:

I can't access just your 401k. No if my folks screw up we just take it all out.
So nothing personal.

What that doesn't make it any better?....hmm.

Just for the record - notice when I wrote that previous post.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

This is no small feat, btw. Many school-based teams are limited to students from within the district.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

It's also a resource issue right? There's a great big difference between the resources at a veteran FRC11 and a lot of new teams.

That was why I decided to decouple that issue by building my own parallel unaffiliated programming (robot hardware) and CNC resources from FRC11/193.

This way if teams in general need help there's no conflict of interest.
For example when I offer this.

It's not terribly appropriate to offer without discourse with FRC11/193 their resources, so I offer only mine and my time.
There was a time I couldn't afford this process because I don't derive my income from this (I used to perform manufacturing it's more a hobby now) but increasingly it's not an issue.
This way the costs and impacts of my decisions are not visited upon them without agreement.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Definitely ask parents. I am a mentor and I train horses for a living. I don't know a darn thing about robots (well, I didn't- I'm learning fast!) But I do understand passion and drive. I know how to run for snacks. I have come in handy at surprising times- I used to give riding lessons to the woman who is an owner at Kline Brothers, where we sent CAD designs for them to manufacture for us. I have not had to call in any favors yet, but I can and will. So let parents know they will be more useful then they think! We have 3 'real' mentors. Then there is me and another parent (he does taxes). If your mentors only had to be there one at a time, and there were one or two parents each night, maybe your mentors could stay longer and then take a day off.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

This is probably something you want to understand first. Your mentors signed up to help inspire students through designing and building a robot. They did not sign up to spend x number of hours in the shop. They (likely) did not sign up to build a robot that is going to seed in the top 8 at a competition. This is especially true if you have newer mentors who have not done this before, every new teacher or mentor I have worked with has said "I didn't know this is what I was getting into" at some point during the first season.

Let me highlight some of my experiences and advice based on my time in FRC. I was a highly invested student for 4 years and now a mentor for 9 years with three different teams that have had different levels of mentor resources and approaches to work time.

On 498 we spent me as many hours as possible at the school to work on the robot, typically working 4-7 most weekdays and 8 - 4 on Saturdays. Schedules went longer the closer we got to end of build with some late nights and occasionally meeting on a Sunday as well. We had an abundance of mentors to work with students (sometimes a 1:1 ratio) but most could not arrive until 5 or 6 on weekdays. We were a fairly competitive team, always making eliminations, sometimes as a captain, but never winning an event. At the time I was a student I thought our meeting schedule was the only way to be competitive but in hindsight there was a lot of waste. Very little work happened from 4 until mentors arrived and if the mentor for your subteam couldn't come that day effectively no work happened. There was also not a sense of urgency much of the time because we knew we had time to work still. We never suffered much from mentor burnout (surprisingly) but we had a difficult time keeping teachers from the school (6 teacher leads in a 7 year span) at least partially because of the hours. We tried to have other teachers watch the team (babysit as some have mentioned) to help with the load but invariably the load falls on the lead teacher or two when the teams wants to start staying really late.

When I joined 167 I found out they "only" met three days a week most of build season; Tuesday and Thursday from about 5 - 8 and Saturday from 11 - 5. I thought it wasn't nearly enough time when I first heard it but after going through a few seasons of it it was pretty effective. Since there weren't as many meetings more mentors and students could make the ones there were and they were more effective as a result. We were also more focused on building when we were there, and tasks like buying parts and sketching out ideas usually occurred outside of meetings with meeting time only for final approval. As we became more competitive we tended to add a fourth meeting on Friday or Sunday in the last 2 or 3 weeks of build season and worked President's day but still stuck to avoiding meeting on every day. We did not have as many mentors as were on my previous team but still had 5-6 who regularly went to meetings each season and our lead engineering mentor was approved to open our build space without a teacher present. Our competitive level was about the same, we made eliminations at every event we were at and we were an alliance captain once in 2014.

I am the lead mentor now for 2662. We meet on a very low hour schedule, Tuesday and Thursday from 3 - 4:30 or 5 and Saturday from 8 - 2. We also meet for 10 to 12 hours on President's day and try to get in about 5 hours on MLK day. Outside of that we may get to add a Friday or Monday in the last week (still 3 - 4:30) but that is it. We have three mentors, I am the only engineering mentor and then there are two teachers at the school who help run the team. We have to meet on such a short basis out of necessity, not choice. Our teacher mentors both have young children and need to leave by 5 because of daycare or a spouse's job, and I cannot stay with the team if a teacher is not there. The majority of our students have to leave by 4 to catch buses since we accept students from a fairly wide geographic area, and many of our students live 20+ minutes away by car and do not have transportation home if they miss the bus. The build times for us do effect our competitiveness as we have difficulty finishing a basic robot in the time period we have (we missed elims and finished 15th at our regional last year, but largely due to strategy not scoring ability). However number of mentors has as big or a bigger impact overall. We still often have students who aren't working for part of meetings because they don't know how to do a task or don't know that a task needs to be done, and we have few mentors or experienced students to lead them.

Based on my experiences I think that meeting 3-4 days a week (3 - 4 hours weekdays and 6 - 8 hours on weekends) with extra time on holidays is the sweet spot for a team to be competitive and sustainable. Meeting more than this tends to burn out anyone who tries to attend all meetings and if you don't have an ample supply of mentors available then any extra time without enough mentors (or very experienced students) is usually not valuable. Highly competitive teams with ample mentor support or students who are skilled enough to effectively act as mentors are the exception, but that is not the majority of teams, and even then they can benefit from keeping their schedule "reasonable" to improve the long term sustainability and health of the team. I also think that getting approval for mentors who are not teachers to supervise the team at their build space is extremely helpful if it can be done; otherwise you need to have multiple teachers who can watch the team to hold an effective schedule.

TLDR; the problem is not mentors not being committed enough, the problem is not enough mentors/teachers. It is difficult to meet on a frequent enough basis to build a competitive robot if there are only 1 - 3 mentors on a team, and existing build time is likely not as productive as it could be due to the small quantity of mentors.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I've mentored every single day this build season, including 19.5 hrs from Sunday to bag alone. Mentors do this because they care a ton about the students and love robotics almost as much. But they do have other things in their lives that take them away.

Having three mentors covering 6 weeks of build is asking a great deal of them. Please don't presume to know what goes on in the lives of any of your mentors, regardless of who they are. I'm sure they miss the time with the team as long as they feel like the students are engaged. It's critical to the success of a team to get as many supportive mentors as you can, both engineering and non-engineering. Even the most dedicated mentor can be overwhelmed or burn out when stretched too thin.

I recommend talking to your mentors about trying recruiting additional mentors. Please bear in mind that the students should be doing a fair amount of the legwork, but it definitely needs to be done in cooridination with your current mentors. Good options are parents (especially for non-engineering tasks) or local professional engineering societies (ASME, IEEE, SWE, NSBE, ACM, Alpha Pi Mu, Pi Tau Sigma, Tau Beta Pi, etc.). If you're lucky, perhaps one of your sponsors has an employee volunteer program.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

A few comments:
1. You talk about mentors and not being able to build if they are not present. You do not mention a teacher/school personnel being present. Many school districts will not allow people on campus without a teacher/school personnel there for liability reasons.

2. You say that "they knew what they signed up for." That is correct, but do YOU know what THEY signed up for? The team's expectations are clearly different from the mentors' expectations. This requires level setting.

3. From the perspective of a mentor who is single:

• I do not have anyone to help me around my apartment with cleaning, dishes, laundry, cooking, etc. This has been sacrificed for the last 6 weeks.
  I do not have anyone to go home to, so any chance of working on a social life is sacrificed for 6 weeks.
  I do not have extra time to go to fun classes, like cooking, on weekends because of the time sacrifices I have made for the last 6 weeks for my team, plus competition weekends.
  I do not have a cat that understands why she doesn't get fed between 4:30 and 6pm everyday because of the sacrifices I have made for the last 6 weeks.
  I have not always gotten decent parking at my apartment complex due to a lack of assigned space due to the sacrifices I have made for the last 6 weeks.
  I have gotten to work late or worked fewer than 8 hours a day due to the sacrifices I have made for the last 6 weeks.
  I have NOT gotten the required amount of sleep I require because of the sacrifices I have made for the last 6 weeks. This affects my emotional well being, as well as my physical well being.

Note that the above list is by MY OWN CHOICE. I could have gone in and worked with my team for 1 hour a week, and they would have been grateful for that time. That is not MY expectation of working with a team.

The ONLY thing I would change about my team at this time is getting them to write everything down on paper instead of taking photos of white boards or doing calculations using Google. When something goes wrong, there's no way to figure it out if it's not in writing. There are also issues if someone isn't present and is the only person that knows what is happening.

On the flip side, I have gotten to watch one student find that she LOVES to tap threads into metal as it's rather relaxing. I have also gotten to watch when lightbulbs go on over other students' heads. THIS is a big reason why I volunteer, to watch the students grow and gain knowledge, either educational or personal.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

Couldn't have said it better.

Might I add that mentors are usually as committed as the team. There are some days when I want to shut things down early because I am babysitting and students are not being productive. I generally don't, but I have in the past sent the team home because it was a big party on my time. I love being a mentor, but you have to know I really don't want to just "hang out" with a bunch of high school kids.

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I'm happy to proofread your Woodie Flowers submission about the one mentor that really did a great job and should be noticed.

I'm sure all 3000+ teams made a submission, right?

Re: Mentors not wanting to stay
 

I've been on a team where the teacher was given a stipend and told to run the program. They were told it was a turn key operation and that they wouldn't need to do much.
They soon realized how much work was involved. That teacher had no real interest in the program and it showed, so I can see where you are coming from. The teachers are probably the only way to unlock the facility and allow access. If they aren't into the FRC challenge it makes it difficult because they have final say from the school stand point and you feel your hands are tied.
Some teams have that dedicated teacher that is in it for the right reasons. I love those guys and really appreciate all they do. Ms. Kvale on 3494 comes to mind.
Unfortunately people come and go on a team from year to year. There are teams out there that would love to have more students, more mentors, more school district buy in and definitely more resources. Seems like most teams lack in one area or another.

I applaud your enthusiasm as a student that really wants to make the best robot possible and is willing to put in the time. It sucks having a key member of the team leave and change the dynamics of the team. Hang in there, use the 6 hour unbag time wisely if possible and lean on the veterans in the area if you can.