Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

1 head ref, 5 other refs. 1 ref is actually enough to tell all the crossings if they're backed up by their partners (and they are).

And by "difficult to get enough volunteers", you hit the nail on the head with a jackhammer. A bobcat-mounted jackhammer.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

I am seriously considering reffing OC in week 5 since I was sought after in SD. I too will watch crossings if I do that.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

If the sensors were used in conjunction with scales (weight bearing devices), they would be able to determine it. Even electronic scales that fed some external program should be able to handle it. Depending on the type of sensor used, I don't see why it couldn't determine the alliance. It may take some work, but this is FIRST.

As for volunteering, I did for 12 years. I would have again (after a two year break), but I am mentoring a rookie team and the teacher wants me available to the team.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

What the sensors would need to determine:

1) There is no robot ON or OVER the ramp to the defense.
2) There is A robot ON or OVER the ramp to the defense.
2a) The alliance of said robot. If of "wrong alliance", ignore all following items.
3a) That said robot is ON the defense.
3b) That said robot's bumpers are below shield level.
4) That said robot was OFF of the defense, and NOT ON or OVER the ramp off of the defense.
5) That any robots following closely meet the same conditions, even if their bumpers are locked.
6) The direction of all such robots, that they are going in the proper direction.

Additionally, it would need to determine this for Category C defenses. These have the extra determination that the robot that just crossed was, at some point, not in contact with the door (and that's going to be the nuisance). They're also notorious for creating the 5 situation above, or messing up the 6 situation.

Sure, you could have weight sensors in the platforms, and tare them right before match start. That takes care of part 3a, and to some extent part 3b (though the Dukes-type crossers will throw off the scale portion a bit, I'd think). Sure, you could have some sort of distance sensor pointing upwards in the ramp (1 and 2), and maybe even a color sensor (2a).

Guess what? By the time you've finished your sensor system, you'd probably be better off (financially) paying the ref crew to use their eyes and press the buttons. Besides, they're easier to reprogram all the units. ;):p

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

Drive teams at our regional were told all crossings to damage defenses need to be easy to see to count. There were very few individual robots that could damage Sally port and I didn't see any that could damage the drawbridge on their own. I didn't see any issues with the way the referees were not calling damages that were close with this being specifically stated in driver meeting at our regional.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

People have been talking about damaged defenses but nobody has seemed to say anything about the low bar curtain. I noticed Kettering had no curtain in the playoffs. We lost our curtains at Guilford County with about 5-10 matches left in day one. Some amazing person in NC made what seemed to be completely duck tape curtains for day two. Those held up with no problem but did act a little differently than the original low bar curtains. Curious to see what material they will be made of for the next few weeks. I also did notice bending rough terrain, but it never was as big of a deal as the low bars were.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

Actually, I was thinking of three scales per defense, one for each ramp and one for the center. Then this morning realized that all of the ramps are probably just one long piece. Oh well. At least I was coming up with a potential solution instead of just adding to the issue(s) involved.

It will be interesting to see how the PNW Districts I attend starting this week will go.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

It was a team effort, but there may or may not be a picture of Mark Koors showing off his taping skills.

The idea was suggested to us from FIRST support, after San Diego implemented it and had positive results - and it was gorilla tape.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

I know better than to join this discussion, but here goes...

To those who are advocating video (or photo) review of disputed calls, go back to the photo of the successful scale from earlier in this thread. Take a straightedge and put it parallel to the black line on the tower that indicates a successful scale. Note where that line falls with respect to the robot's bumpers. Was this a successful scale? Does the photo tell the truth? Why, or why not? If the blue alliance had this picture, (or similar video) would they challenge the call? How much time would they waste arguing about it? For most matches, there are at least 6 video recordings being taken. Which of the 6 recordings should be taken as the authoritative version? When reviewing videos, should the refs be required to view all available recordings, or only the one(s) that the challenger submits as evidence? Does the alliance being challenged deserve the right to collect and present their own recordings refuting the challenging team?

Still cameras and video cameras produce results which often distort reality. The difference between standing and kneeling when taking the referenced picture would produce a totally different perceived result.

My own feeling is that the scores on the scoreboard are subject to variation based on the methods used to generate them. What's up there is only accurate to some +/- tolerance. It's similar to the fit of a dowel pin in a round hole. Each part has a nominal dimension and a tolerance. If you specify a .251 hole, and a .250 pin, with a .010 tolerance on each, chances are about 50/50 that the pin will fit in the hole. To ensure a good fit, a good engineer makes sure the nominal values are far enough apart that there is no chance of interference.

With FRC matches, there will ALWAYS be a discrepancy between the reported scores and what happens on the field. FIRST and the volunteers do their best to reduce the discrepancy as much as possible. As engineers, it's our job to understand that to ensure the result we desire, without leaving it to random chance, we must score a certain amount of points greater than the other alliance.

Missed calls are a fact of life. In a well designed game, the opportunities for missed calls are reduced and the consequences of missing a call are minimized. As much as I love this game, I recognize that with 8 required crossings for a breach, the chances of error are high, and the consequences of a miss are huge. As drive team coach my job is to teach my team to play in a way that minimizes the chance we'll get burned by a bad call, not whine about it when it inevitably occurs.

So, I teach them:
- Be blatant when making crossings. Hit the obstacles full speed. Be a spectacle. Go far past the defense, so there is no question you crossed.
- Don't trust the lights. Count the crossings yourself. Even if the lights are out, be sure that we actually crossed twice. Even if you know we crossed twice, if the light is still on, cross again.
- Don't let the fact that we won a close match go to your head. With close matches, we won the luck of the draw. It could just as easily have gone the other way.
- Don't let the results of an FRC match/competition/season be the measure of your own self worth. Nothing about this game is worth getting so worked up over that you behave dishonorably over it.
- If you lose, don't blame others. Just be better. We didn't lose because the ref made a bad call. We lost because of that night back in build week 2 when you played video games instead of coming up with a better climber/shooter/autonomous routine.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

I agree very similar to NFL sometimes you have to play above the calls. With crossings it seems video that everyone has would be verifiable by an unaided eye. That is why I brought it up.

I was not aware that FRC did not let referees use video. So unless that changes then the best is to play above the calls and protest on the field if needed immediately.

RP makes a huge swing in rank...so its magnified this year. That is the only reason I wanted to bring this issue to light for every team and every ref that reads this or hears about it. Its not just me that was miffed the entire team was. Especially in the first several matches..its like c'mon man.

Trying to do my part to improve the games in Weeks 2 through 6 and Championships for all teams not just ours. I want every team to get every earned point and give their absolute best game .Then if we win we know we won honestly and the ranking is earned as well. I hate when calls or non-calls change the game outcomes but it is life. That in itself is a good lesson for the kids.

Again no ill will to the San Diego reffing team.... its not anyone's fault there is a lot going on. I thank you for all the excellent reffing throughout the matches...awesome job.

Re: Real week 1 update for you.
 

If you are looking in tracking defenses being crossed I seen the volunteers that reset the field all stand right by the field and not move during a match. Could a few volunteers be responsible for one or two defenses and have a button to shut a set of lights off and trigger a score for that defense line? Have the volunteers rotate so they are not stuck there all day. And truthfully most of the defenses are obvious.