MAR Competitions
 

Why are the officals in the MAR district so bad at their jobs? And why do the volunteers think theyre so much better than everyone?:confused: :mad:

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Do you mind giving context/evidence to your claims? Because your post currently holds no value without a team number or name to put this statement too.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I don't think volunteers think that they are better than everyone. But they are there helping, in the pits, in the stands, on the field, in the background making these events happen. I think if you would also help and volunteer that you would also find the happiness and inner peace that they do, after all you are a llama....

Edited to add:
Sorry wrong lama :rolleyes:

Re: MAR Competitions
 

The head ref at the Hatboro-Horsham competitiom said and I quote, "You can't expect us to get all the calls right." Whats the point of the ref then?

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I hope that when you become an adult you volunteer to be a referee; only then will you understand how immatiure that sounds. In the meantime, unsupported claims by an anonymous poster don't carry much weight here.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

You do realize that you just now volunteered to be a ref, right?

Re: MAR Competitions
 

They were several issues at the competition of scoring. Also the teams themselves were not getting points they deserved. (I personally knew of two separate times when this happened in eliminations.)
I believe that first should start implementing video replay if the teams request it. It should be elimination matches have video replays. If an alliance challenges and wins they can use it. But if they lose they will not have video replay to challenge. It gives fair chance to all teams that they diverse.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I just brought this up in another thread, but by suggesting video replay you also just volunteered as a ref.

FIRST doesn't allow it.
Technically, it's a big challenge (and there are numerous CD threads on the topic).
And finally, you seem to want to find out what it's like being a volunteer. VIMS is still accepting volunteers...

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Video replay needs to be a part of the matches of FIRST. I saw many people get foul at a MAR event and nothing was called.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

See post above yours. You also just volunteered to referee.

Referees are also scorers in this game. You want them to focus solely on fouls, lobby HQ to make a game that doesn't rely on referees scoring stuff during the match.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

You have to realize that this is one of the first weeks of competition and that this is the first time most of these refs are reffing the game. I'm sure that as the season progresses they will get better at noticing fouls (as well as teams getting better at not committing them). FIRST is also probably going to tweak the workforce so that the teams are better covered by refferees and everyone geta a fairer chance. Remember that Referees are people that they want what's best for the teams as well as what's fair for the teams. Keep in mind that they spend their weekends at events voluntarily and just want to make sure the game is played fairly and to have fun, not get yelled at by teams for making a bad call.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

OK, so Carl, Aashay and whitetail need to confirm they've signed up in VIMS for an event, right? Until then, I don't want to hear your whining.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I think the snaps telling you that you volunteered yourself to be a referee aren't super productive, but as someone who is not a referee I guess I can't speak too much to it. Let's try to take a positive approach from the perspective as someone on a team.

Take the lessons learned from your experience in Week 1 and apply them the same way the GDC and its intertwined parties do. We went to a local district today to take notes on a variety of things. We were directly scouting 12 teams and tabulating things like average match turnaround for a team, potential symptoms of disconnects, number of field faults (I don't think there was ever a field fault), match cycle times, field discrepancies with regards to the team or official versions, and how referees were making calls. (I also know that I need to build up a tolerance or an escape plan for when one of those inane parody videos plays... sorry, not my scene)

We're expecting a similar crew at our event so we are taking our concerns proactively and hope to use our data to advocate for all teams at the event. Everyone needs to take an approach of "we're all in this together" or we'll inevitably rip this thing apart.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Look I spent Friday/Saturday/Sunday putting up then tearing down one of the most complex fields I have seen since 1996 with a group of seriously committed people. Then spent from Friday at 4PM till Sunday at 7:30PM starting each day at 7:00AM as CSA at Mount Olive.

You barely saw me on the field. I watched 2 matches.
The other CSA walked till his feet were killing him and I worked until my back was in full on spasm and I had to take serious painkillers because the show must go on.

I do not know what happened at other events but I can tell you: all of that and I am still sympathetic to the issues of the teams that came to play a game despite their own hardships some of which a few bad referee calls make look trivial (doubt most teams had their cars catch fire on the way to this event).

Sorry you feel slighted. You'd get more sympathy from me and others if you: mentored for a team then did multiple volunteer roles (3 so far for me between FLL, FTC and FRC). This is not cheap or easy to do for anyone. We all do the hard thing and for the best reason.

I hope you get perfect calls at every event you attend but I would not volunteer to referee specifically because you can get eaten alive as you blast through 80+ 10 minute games in a relentless cycle on a field with 6 robots going every which way. I know why referees burn out. Maybe the pain would less if there were more help to referee as apposed to a forum full of people to heckle their every slight. I am not saying not to protest: even FRC11 had a few questions at Mount Olive, but everyone please remember GP.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

The correct question to be asking here is "how can we help the Referees with their job?" Most people, like 99%, really do want to do a good job and this number is probably higher in a completely volunteer position like refereeing an FRC event.

I don't know exactly how we, the teams, can help the referees. But I am sure there is a way. Instead of looking to blame, lets find some way to be constructive and positive while fixing the problems.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

These were scoring errors not referee judgement calls. There is no way to contest errors. Judgement calls are what they are. Like it or not but if a scoring error is made correct it.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Not quite that easy unless the issue is noticed right away. The sensors on the turret are supposed to help with the balls but sensors on the outer works would have driven even more cost into this game field.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

The error I'm referring to is several not counted crossings.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Understand but with no sensors (I saw in Mount Olive) it falls on the field stations to track those. Hence human error is induced.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

How would that make me an adult? Im 100% sure that the point of the ref is to get all the calls right. In football, teams expect the ref to get all the calls right. If we cant expect them to do so, we might as well just play by the honor system. Ill recant my statment about the volunteers thinking they are better but, I stand by my position on the refs.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Honestly such a statement makes me respect a volunteer even more. We already know that doing a job as difficult as Head Referee perfectly is near impossible. I think admitting fault in yourself instead of claiming perfection is the first step to truly doing something well. Making the inverse claim of "We get every call right" sounds far more ridiculous that what you quoted.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Exactly. I noticed that 1640 and 2559 were cheated out of points for crossing outerworks. As well as 2559 being e-stopped for having a torn bumper. What are torn cloth and pool noodles going to do to a field or robot that a 120 pound robot wont do?

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I've been debating whether or not to post on this thread since I saw it last night. Here it goes.

Anyone that knows me has heard me be captious of certain aspects of both FIRST and MAR multiple times. But something I would never do is openly bash the abilities and efforts of the volunteers.

Why? Because we're all human. We all make mistakes, we all have bad days. Just remember, the refs, judges, field crew, literally everyone at the competition, both on the front line and behind the scenes, are gracious donating their time for you. If you ever think that a volunteer is purposely not putting their all into their job, you're wrong. You just competed at a Week 1 competition, you can't expect everything to go smoothly right out of the gate. But I have no doubt that those in charge are already tirelessly working to make things better. And you should be both respectful and thankful for that.

It's fine to be angry/annoyed/upset, but you can't fault anyone for being fallible.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I hope the irony is not lost on anyone with regards to the fact that it sounds like 2559 was in violation with G19-1 and referees responded accordingly.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I can definitely see you getting mad at a ref in football for making a wrong call. You expect them to get all if not 99.999999999999% of the calls right in football or any other sport, why should it be different for this?

Re: MAR Competitions
 

CARL.... this kills volunteers.

But seriously, Refs are human. As long as they are doing their best to make the right calls I'm happy.

The GDC is also human (last I checked... it's possible, based on his widespread approval, that Frank is in fact a collection of kittens in a human suit) and as long as they are trying to give us a cool game I'm happy.

BUT I think in this case we might need dedicated scorekeepers to track defense crossings.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

NFL refs are not 99% perfect, but I can give you three reasons.

1. The FRC game changes each year. For the most part, football hasn't changed in the last half century (some small changes but not as big as a new game each year)
2. FRC refs are volunteers and are trained on site, NFL officials are unionized workers with extensive training and experience.
3. NFL stops game play many time during the game for refs to review and discuss the game, FRC refs do not get a mid-match timeout and cannot review tapes.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Carl, it's hard to come up with an exact answer to bumper question because it's circumstantial but it's all about the safety and well-being of the robot (aka, the hard work 2559 and other teams have done). I know I wouldn't want bumper fabric to get tangled in gear trains or other parts.

Refereeing is hard and not like other sports because everyone in FRC plays the game at different speeds through different modes of production. Do a search here to read through all of the referee threads of the past because this is an annual topic, especially after a week 1 event. It's the toughest job in FRC and is always going to be a subject of criticism. I have the upmost respect for them and what they do for FRC as a volunteer, especially if they're admitting fault. it happens from time to time and they get the spotlight more than other volunteers.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Unless I really hit my head hard, didn't we have scorekeepers hold a plunger in 2015 after we needed them in 2014? I guess you could say that the scoring was far less subjective in 2015 than 2014 for assist points, but wouldn't we say that crossing a defense is pretty cut and dry?

Just like Aerial Assist, I like the core game mechanics and I understand it can't be automated, but it seems like ease in the administration of points was left by the wayside after it was an obvious lesson learned from 2014-2015.

It's incredibly hard to justify blaming a person for what is pretty obviously a systemic issue.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Video replays would definitely be useful for playoff rounds. Yes it would take up time but the competitions are usually behind schedule anyway. The 2014 Mt Olive competition is a fantastic example. The winning team committed a tech foul that would've lost the competition for them. Someone had the match recorded and found the tech foul and went to bring it to the judges, but they didn't accept it as evidence.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

It actually COULD be automated. Robot RFID chips and field based readers could actually provide fairly precise location data. I know Zondag did some research and he found something stupid accurate. But this conversation was years ago and I don't remember the number. So we could absolutely track where teams are and automate transitions.


Pet Peeve - JUDGES are not Refs. Refs, or Zebras as we sometimes call them, are responsible for rulings on the field. Judges generally have no clue what the rules of the game are (seriously, it's a 10 minute primer or so... less if the coffee hasn't arrived yet) Refs seem to have more spatial and temporal awareness than Judges too as I've yet to see a head ref have to spend 15 minutes of opening ceremonies frantically searching for their refs. I'm open to donations of bells [1]

And oh god no, no instant replay, no video review. That will make the events drag on. Think match turn times are bad now? Add in 6 teams all with videos of "calls" the refs "missed". Yeah, events would need to be 2 weeks long.





[1] Which, yes, I will make the judges wear at Boston if someone donates enough bells. I threatened funny hats last year.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

That's unfair to say imo. If it's done in an intelligent manner similar to timeouts, where it's only available in eliminations, then I see no reason why it could not be made feasible.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I know NASCAR uses a stupid complex system that allows them to actually create a computer generated video of a race on demand. It's obviously not my field so I have no knowledge of feasible a stock solution or the general economies of scale would make it work in FRC. I guess I automatically didn't consider that level of automation happening in FRC after hot goals in 2014. That would be super dope to pull off, maybe making that a requirement of the next control system bid?

Re: MAR Competitions
 

There are a myriad of technical reasons why it can't be done. But the biggest ones are time and money. Regionals are already running late, and as someone who has to help keep the whole show on it's rails, it's HARD. Add into that the camera gear the NFL uses for a game is probably a substantial portion of a regional budget. It's almost a non-starter. [1] Add into that we could avoid this whole issue by acknowledging that our refs are freaking human when planning how many volunteers we need and I don't know why it keeps coming up.

TL;DR - Add scorekeepers/more refs than you think you'll need. It's cheaper and easier.



[1] Oh but what about crowdsourcing! Shaky video from about a million feet away with digital zoom isn't gonna help clarify anything. And, to quote Gregory House, "Everybody lies!"

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I think you're making a completely unfair comparison with the NFL. Considering our field is much smaller and at many events the AV crew is already taking in multiple angles. It could be done well and not be prohibitively expensive if it was deemed high enough priority.

I think it's important for FIRST to give events all the tools capable to make consistent and fair calls especially when it's down to deciding the winner of the event. And just throwing more refs and scorekeepers in there is not the solution in my opinion because sometimes it's just too hard to tell from a field-side position what is going on.

But I digress FIRST has other problems and if I had to choose my top 3 things for them to fix this likely would not be one of them.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

If it is worth doing, it is worth doing right.

Why would we ask so many people to spend so much of their life toward an endeavor and then say it isn't worth it to make sure the correct teams won?

I get that FIRST takes up a lot of time, I have 5 FTC teams, 1 FRC Team and a Lemelson-MIT InvenTeam.

If you are going to do it, do it right, the first time. I see no reason a video review could not be implemented like the timeout's in the playoffs.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Define "well". Let me put it this way:

Can your camera system tell with 100% certainty that a robot's bumper was or was not across a defense when it stopped at the end of its crossing, reversed, went back through, and then moved back again? How about whether the robot is in contact with a defense?

Can a referee's eyes?

Now, I'm willing to admit that maybe a referee's eyes miss things--that's why there are multiple referees. I'm not willing to admit that the best camera system can pick up those details, PARTICULARLY with the angles generally used by the A/V crew. Full-field camera from 100 yards picking up that bumper, or the scale being high enough? Yeah. Right. 'Bout that. There are half a dozen referees around the field. Guess how many of them are working to make sure you're getting the points? (Would you believe... half a dozen?)


By the way, one note about the crossings this year: Per the Manual, in one of the blue boxes, referees are specifically instructed to NOT award Crossing points if they doubt that the Crossing happened.


Now, I've heard refs in the past state that if video replay were allowed/a part of the game, they'd quit. No joke. Guess what, it's hard enough getting refs to volunteer.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I concur Don!

While volunteering and mentoring I understand, in a stressful situation people let the best of their emotions get to them but please please for one day step into those VOLUNTEER shoes. They are human as is ourselves and will make mistakes, not on purpose but on our instincts.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

HH was under extreme pressure from the time constraints caused by field failures. The complaint is that defense crossings were missed several times. The question should be how does this happen. Is it scoring platform related or human just didn't see it. This happened at other events and they took action to correct it. In total the subjective calls for penalties in my opinion were very, very good. So look to why it happened. Is there a problem that refs have? Can anything be done going forward. For a fast pace game the refs in general were very good.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Some good food for thought that's semi-relevant: this post by IndieFan.
Also, just one thing to add (I hope nobody said it already because I don't work for the U.S. Redundancy Dept. of Redundancy)--I'm almost positive that MAR isn't the only area of FIRST experiencing scoring errors and other week 1 kinks. So to the OP: why did you title this thread as if it were?

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Teams that I was with this weekend, including my own, used our human player/spy to keep track of the lights for crossing. If our students saw that lights weren't lit, they signaled the drive team to go again to make sure the crossing was seen

Is this ideal? No.
Is this a solution? Yes.
Is this something you can do yourself? Yes.

By the way, if you're going to talk trash, at least do it with your team name and number showing. Don't be a coward about it.

MAR definitely has ref issues, and they've been around for years (specific people have been around for years yet make the same mistakes as ever), but if you're going to make that assertion, do it with your name and number associated with it like many of us have done in the past.

.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I have been involved in FIRST for a very long time now and I have been a volunteer for many years as well as hosted FRC FLL and Jr.FLL events at my school so I have a pretty good understanding of what goes on behind the curtain. First off, Id like to say that I know all the head refs for MAR, and most of the regular refs as well, and they are all absolutely amazing people. I would trust them with almost anything. While I do agree that the current system of refing is flawed, I would not put all the blame on these people. The problem with FRC refing is that they have very little opportunity to do "what is morally correct" because they are bound by the strict rules given by FIRST. This is very unfortunate and I think that the solution to the problem should start with giving refs a little more opportunity to do what is morally correct regardless of what is written in the rules. Second, I find it to be quite frankly stupid to have a system where you have 6 refs and 6 robots but each ref is supposed to watch more than one robot at a time. As far as I know, there isnt much going on on the field unless there is a robot involved, which begs the question, why isnt each ref assigned one of the six robots to watch for that match? I have been asking myself and others this question for years and I have yet to hear a strong argument for why this wouldnt work. I understand that refs are volunteers and that they need to rest but I really dont think it would be hard to fine one or two more people that could ref so that you could have a total of six refs on the field for each match. So now that I have said that, please tell me that I am not an adult, tell me that I dont know what the time commitment is, tell me that humans get things wrong sometimes, I can handle it. Just keep in mind that I am an adult, I have been the first one in and the last one out (because I get a ride with the guy who has the keys), and I work 18 hours a day seven days a week for the entire summer so I understand what time commitment is.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

The main reason that I can think of that this isn't done is that the robots are going all over the field and you can not always see with great clarity what is happening in the opposite corner. Normally they have one ref per quadrant plus the head ref, then in the more complex years, like this one, they add a 5th ref to help watch a specific part of the field that is likely to get a lot of action.

The one thing I will say with everyone coming out and attacking the ref's is that you need to remember that your vantage point is different than theirs and that the rules state that if a ref is unsure they should NOT award the cross. This comes in to play most for the sally port and for the robots that cross "just enough" then back-up to cross again.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Except that this is a slippery slope. This only breeds more inconsistencies across events & does more harm than good.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

As someone who runs the A/V system at a district in Michigan, I can say that while video replay would be plausible, as it currently stands it would not be practical. Firstly, while A/V systems at some events have multiple camera angles, only the camera angle that the audience/livestream sees are actually being recorded. Secondly, some events record the entire day as a single file and break up the match recordings later, this would make it extremely impractical to replay the video from a single match as you would have to stop the recording and then seek to the exact 2 minute window on a 5+ hour long video that you needed.

Don't get me wrong, this is something I would like to see available at some point (maybe even having a separate recording/caching system that makes the previous match immediately available to the refs to review), but the systems we use now would be problematic to use for a feature like this.


On a side note, this thread is one of the main reasons (along with field delays) that my team avoids week 1 (and, to a lesser extent, week 2) events at all costs. We've been burned by way too many field coms issues, inexperienced refs, or match delays in the past at early events, starting week 3 or later makes much more sense IMO as most of the bugs have been worked out by then. Someone else can be the guinea pigs. :rolleyes:

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I no longer mentor any team but when I did, one of my multiple roles was coaching for a MAR team. Being with the drive team I could see plainly when something was off. I am not a student so I'd have often have to stop myself. So I used the opportunity to coax one of the drive team or captains go to the question box. I thought of this in a positive way as exercise in assertiveness.

Let me preface this by saying that the Refs job is insane even in years where there isn't as much going on in the field. But this year its madness. If you've ever had your favorite baseball team lose because of one bad call by the umpire, do some Reffing for this years FRC event and multiply that risk by 100. If I were asked if I could help ref, I can't honestly say I'd have the strength of mind to do it.

Lets make this short...

1) One or two team captains would go to the question box
2) The ref staff was busy, then the final score would be displayed
3) The field was reset for the next match
4) The head ref would come over and talk (I'd give real money to have heard what was said)
5) The students would come back and say the score was already finalized and they can't change it
6) A staff member would come back to the pits saying that the refs decisions were final. We were advised to stop questioning the refs or they'd have to lodge a complaint against our team (that's what I thought was happening already but oh, well)
7) The question box is still there, though

So in conclusion, while I've seen some teams be successful in having foul/score adjustments, or being awarded a replay, this is exceedingly rare. We came to accept whatever befell us.

P.S. if I could make one change... If the finalized score overturns the outcome of the final displayed game play score, that they'd be obligated to have the announcer describe why it happened.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Well said, Ryan.

I'm a proud Volunteer Coordinator since 2009, serving FIRST Mid-Atlantic since '14. Volunteers across the world for FIRST are excellent and work really dang hard at their jobs - and MAR is no exception... but we are all human. Do bad things happen? Absolutely, and it's not wrong to talk constructively about solutions. But the crews that I've worked with here are consistently hard-working, diligent, and professional. Insulting them instead of working towards a fix is not going to help anyone.

Everyone is human, and it's each of our jobs as a graciously professional human being to make sure that when things go wrong we handle them with grace. The heat of competition can make things get ugly quickly. I'll freely admit I was probably prickly this weekend when referees called things incorrectly - but I also understand that going to a Week 1 event means it's going to be a learning experience for us all... yes, even the event officials.

Remember your Head Ref hadn't seen Stronghold played yet either.

It was absolutely disappointing to hear a ref say "It's a grey area, I couldn't see who initiated contact" when we were hit by an opponent, while traversing our opponent's outer works, & penalties weren't called. My drivers know that's not how G43 works, but the ref our corner of the field didn't. My student stood in the box with the manual and read it with them, and still nothing happened.

It sucks to miss a breach (and the ranking point) by one crossing, to which (a different) ref shrugs and says "Sorry, I must have not seen it, I was focusing on something else, but I'm not changing the score."

I totally get it. Things like that can really sour an event experience.

But the answer to this isn't "Why does [event, region, person, whatever] suck?" it's "How do we make this better?"

Personally, my thought was adding scorekeepers whose only jobs are to watch the Defense crossings, while the refs manage robot-contact. It's something I'm planning on bringing up to the Volunteer Resources folks at HQ on our call - that's the whole point of the weekly reviews for VCs. I'm also suggesting that Refs (not just the head referees) be required to review the Q&A and understand how important or controversial questions might come into play during the upcoming week.

One of the things VCs strive for with all our volunteers is to make sure that they understand the event is about making sure students have a consistent, positive, engaging experience. Even just this weekend, I've had overwhelmingly fantastic experiences with volunteers and event staff - from the way 11's parents & mentors helped us with two Sunday-morning crises, to the rockstar FTA's Kevin and Josh lending us a laptop at the last possible second before a match so we didn't have to get bypassed.

Volunteers are there to make sure teams & attendees have the best experience possible, and so many of them excel at it.

We're all human, and there are incidents where the mark gets missed - there's no denying that. Let's work together on making things better rather than creating more tension.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

The judges are definitely doing their best with a complicated game with many moving parts. I remember when I reffed an FLL competition and was wracked with fear that I made a bad call. But if I did, the kids calmly asked me about it and I explained the call. They were highly understanding and always showed respect and thanks to me and the other volunteers. Please remember back to FLL in these situations (if you did it) and act accordingly. Considering that that was just FLL, I am amazed by the refs of this years FRC game who have to deal with a much bigger game and more complaints.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

REFS! REFS WEAR ZEBRA SHIRT.

Judges wear blue.


Come on people, it's not hard... and it hasn't changed.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

An after thought ... The umpire's bad call always was a sort of wild card of the game... up until instant replay started which in a way sort of ruined the game. (just my opinion). No one on the winning team in baseball would contest the bad call. In "the scenes we'd like to see department", someone on CD starts a thread titled "MAR sux because a bad call made us win".

Libby,

I was watching Mt Olive from home via Youtube. It was quite obvious when crossings were being missed. I could almost keep up with both sides at the same time. Someone looking at the live feed down on the floor might be able to help but I don't know if it is allowed.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

"Why are the officials in the MAR district so bad at their jobs?"
How would you go about making this statement? As with any game, there are decisions made that require quick and accurate thinking. A week one event will obviously have more issues than a week 5 event. Did you watch all of the matches for all events this weekend and then review and review again. knowing every rule, and EVERY FMS and FTA RESPONSE. At one time or another every team has had a unwarranted benefit in a match. As far as RI, the initial inspection is just that. As a robot is viewed and progresses thru the event, different configurations become apparent that may violate the rules. RI's consistently address teams from the start to the end of the event. Every match,every robot and every pit is respectfully monitored so the rules are applied correctly. Things come up that may not have during the teams previous match, it's an ongoing situation. Teams just aren't given the green light once the initial inspection is done.Sometimes violations are noted that require items to be dismantled. It;s unfortunate but the game manual and various resources are in place for the team to avoid these situations.

And why do the volunteers think they're so much better than everyone?
They don't. The Mt.Olive event requires over 120 volunteers that dedicate over 5000 hours in four days. Countless hours are put in from reading and understanding the game manual, to picking up the last peice of gym protector after the field is packed in the pods. Until you do this it all seems like magic to a 9-12 grade person. As one FMS person told me he used to think WOW when entering an event when in HS, now he understands the behind the scenes requirement. Every volunteer at MT Olive went way beyond the norm so that every person there could have a great experience.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

LOVE to see that one. Anybody says that one, my opinion is that there ought to be space for ya at either DCMP or CMP, whichever one you go to next... regardless of whether you'd have won or lost without that (bad) call going in your favor.

There was something like that at CMP 'bout 3 years ago, or so I hear, where one alliance tried to talk the head ref out of red-carding the other alliance...

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I've been debating whether to respond to this, but I'm going to make one response and that's it.

I was a ref at Mt. Olive. This game is HARD, the sightlines are bad, and we're human. I'm also of the opinion that video replay ruined baseball, and if you think professional umpires get it right all the time, I've got news for you.

However, what made my weekend was when a student came up to me, and said "thanks for the hand signals on the sally port, that really helped". Made my day that someone appreciated what I was doing, knows how hard it is (no video replay is going to be able to get the multiple angles that you have to look to tell a valid crossing), and took the time to tell me so.

What really gets me down is when someone starts a thread like this, with apparently zero knowledge about how it's done, and then expects us to be perfect. We're all human, we make mistakes. However, since the rules do not allow us to look at video (and I would not be in favor of a change to this), we have to accept the mistakes, as Galarraga graciously did. Nobody's perfect.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

One thing I love about automation and sensors:
They are without emotion and beyond practiced emotional assault.

Seriously we had sensors under mid-field elements in the past. I think all the people very troubled by these errors or to the way the referees get treated as a result should pony up

I have got at least $250 to take the human out of this crossing scoring. Can go higher for a reusable solution.

I want to see referees like Jon come back next year and people, do not fool yourselves, referees have sworn this job off in the past because of the practiced emotional backlash.

FIRST/MAR you know how to find me to collect your bounty for the sensors.

The issue I see with more volunteers is even if there are referees for the quadrants and the robots (12 referees total) one can still miss things and even if they do not you will have differences of opinion between those watching a robot and those watching the quadrant. The people watching the robots would have to move and then you have mobile wireless terminals and all those issues.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Not only that, but NFL referees get paid a lot of money to do what they do and if they make bad calls not only do they risk getting fired, but thousands of football fans bash them. FRC refs do this out of the goodness of their hearts and their love of FIRST. They could be doing anything with their weekend, but instead they choose to come and support FIRST. They try their best and instead of complaining, everyone should either go be a ref and do better than the current ones or try to be patient because it's week one.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Stab in the dark:

There might be enough ferrous crap on an FRC robot (mostly motors) that you could detect crossing by change in magnetic field inducing current in a wire. Wire coils under each defense ramp (in and out) and watch transitions.

Better solution would be some sort of RFID chip on robot (passive) with readers under the ramps to ensure it's one bot doing the crossing. Could possibly do this with the existing radio infrastructure but that's beyond my skill set to quickly figure out.


Or, dumb question: 6 refs, 6 bots... one ref per bot. Like most teams scouting do.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

To be clear we need FIRST to execute it.
I think it can be done technically, but will FIRST go along and do it?
I have no reasonable expectation I can control how FIRST decides to do it (or even if).
If this is a money thing, and surely it is in part a money thing, let's figure out how much cause that interested parties can work out.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

I know, but step 1 is kinda getting a solution that should work. I don't have the knowledge required to do this on my own, all I can really do is spitball ideas.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Thanks for your point of view from your pretty unique point of view. Thanks for wearing the stripes at that event!'

Wasn't there a automated Frisbee counter they tried and ended up manually counting?

I'm going to guess that they would get an automated system working about the same time as the season ends. People hate FMS and that's something they've been working on ever season to make better. I can't imagine the auto-score nightmare.

I did like your brute force method of 6 people to watch, one for each robot. Techhelpbb offered to help on fixing it, he's part of MAR, I'm sure he can wrangle 5 friends. :rolleyes:

Re: MAR Competitions
 

Here's how I wrangle 6 more people....
OH KIDS! Guess what you are going to be doing today :p

Seriously the people are only part of the solution.
You need some way to reach a resolution between them because with 6 more people you need fast consensus between 12 people.
To keep the game consistent you still need the referees in their existing positions.

BTW you do not necessarily have to integrate the sensors into the field systems.
You could put something to do the data collection and scoring on the side of the field and put the data from that into the field.
If you really want to get crazy - type the scores in manually into either the field side panels or the controls on the desk next to the field (only with permission from FIRST obviously).
It's not like you don't already have the opportunity to mishandle data - otherwise this topic wouldn't exist.

Re: MAR Competitions
 

It would give you some wisdom, which is a defining feature of adulthood.
Fourteen nines? Really? If you knew just a little math you would realize how dumb you sound here.

Anyway: No, even for a well-understood game refs are not perfect, simply because of practical things like sight lines. Thus the challenge and video review in the NFL (an explicit recognition that refs are not perfect), but this is not practical for FRC. It's a game, played for fun. Nobody gets paid.
Thank you Akash.
Spot on Libby.

And thank you Ryan, as always you continue to make me very proud.

And so, Carl the Llama, whoever you happen to be: Does any of this mean something to you? Is there perhaps an inkling of what we're trying to say getting in there? I truly hope so.

Does it suck to have bad calls? Yes, of course, but that happens in real life too - better to learn how to manage is gracefully here than, say, at the wrong end of some cop's gun.

Don