Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Our team was at Kettering for the first week of competition. During our tie-breaker match for the semi-finals we lost 111-115.

This score did not include a clear foul that was given by the ref on the far side of the field for what it looks like on video as a 5 sec defense on our alliance robot
Please see the video at 8:14

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFjxp-Vj1qs

We all, half of the crowd, questioned this?? We asked why the foul points were not given?? Their answer is that they gave us strength in our tower.

What I question is looking very long and hard I could not find that they can only give us strength only. I seen that a Foul is 5 points and a Tech Foul is 5 points + a tower increase??? If the foul given would have been awarded in 5 points we would have advanced to the finals.

Maybe someone else can help me out so we understand going further into our competitions.

Thanks!

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

A foul (if indeed that's what it was) should award the other team +5 points.

But as unfortunate as losing a high-stakes game is, this weekend a friend of mine lost her brother, another friend her husband, and yet another his mom. While it may be disheartening, frustrating, aggravating, even enraging, there is nothing even remotely "tragic" about a blown call or a missed assignment of points.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

IIRC, there was a thread about this, and the foul gave your alliance scale points, and it was the correct call.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Look at the end result. Your alliance only had 1 robot on the batter. That is 5 points. Your alliance got an extra 15 points in scaling for the foul. They referees followed the rule correctly.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

pfreivald - as what you have mentioned those are TRULY TRAGIC; and I am sure in my post I didn't say anything that would diminish those. For this occurrence it was a more tense problem that could possibly cause one not to qualify for states and more. Some Seniors on our team who have worked hard all year for years would deem this a bit tragic! Maybe Monday Mornings are not a happy time for you?:D

3175student17- you are correct that is what they said they had done--however I am looking for clarification where it states that in the rules??

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

I don't think from the video it was for a 5 sec pin.

I think it may be for .....
G28 During the final twenty (20) seconds of TELEOP, ROBOTS in their COURTYARD may not contact
an opponent ROBOT, regardless of who initiates the contact.
Violation: The contacted ROBOT is considered to have SCALED an open side of the TOWER at the
end of the MATCH.
Teams are encouraged to consider rule G11 when developing their
strategies, such as attempting to draw violations of this rule.
The ARENA will play a warning sound when thirty (30) seconds remain
in TELEOP as a reminder that violations for this rule will soon be
enforced. When twenty (20) seconds remain in TELEOP, an additional
sound will be played.

It happened at :19 so your received a SCALE and extra 15 IF the penalty stood.

The BLUE robot did not heed th 30 second warning and violated your "attempt to scale" at 19.

Which it appears they did (but why the extra tower strength? too)

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Take a look at G28:

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Thanks for much for the clarification. They had told us they gave us points for the tower strength, per a student who asked; but obviously he misunderstood and should have said that they gave us points for scaling the tower!

As in the past we have our students talk and communicate with refs and staff if they have any questions and we HOPE they remember what they said so we can better understand :confused:

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Thanks Anthony...totally clear now and thanks so much for helping clarify!

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Not this Monday in particular, no--and on any given day I have a pretty low tolerance for melodrama.

Given that you were awarded the 15 points, and that this had been pointed out elsewhere already, I'm rolling my eyes even harder at the word choice.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

There was a similar thread, but not about this event.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=145303

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Hey 5114,

Once again, THANK YOU and 5150 for the opportunity to be seeded with you as the #1 Alliance for the playoffs.

I had posted about our match yesterday, but as you are seeing the bashing and posts about being overly dramatic and to lighten up about the call made me just go ahead and delete the thread all together. I don't think those people being rude understand the complete details of what we were told versus what really happened. If it had been explained to us correctly in the first place, it would not have ever been even posted.

They are correct it was a G28 violation NOT a G22 foul. While not everyone was rude on my post and answered our concerns, which I greatly appreciated, a lot were. The purpose of CD I thought was to get answers and clarification, but this has left a bad taste in my mouth. Too bad the "gracious professionalism" isn't carried through even on this site by all users.

Again,

Thank you for choosing us as a part of your alliance. And, our experience forever more will be one of our teams most memorable events!

Good Luck with all of your future matches, and we'll be watching!

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Team 5234,

Please know that we are really, REALLY happy with the Kettering U event, refs, volunteers and all that was at the event. We are gracious that 5150 picked us up and that they and us saw vision in your bot capabilities through the fog you were experiencing with the incorrect IP address and no robot control for your first 7-8 events that day!

Please don't let a few bad apples here deter you from seeking information here. I chose to come here to ask because I wasn't finding all that I needed to get my facts straight. The individuals that guided me was super helpful for our team and who knows how many more on scoring and fouls.

Basically if you can't help with a question or clarification DON'T RESPOND and MOVE ON!!

Hope you have a great rest of the year at your events and this game is all that we were hoping for from the last year games for sure!!!!!:D :D

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

I wish to help with a clarification on what's going on here.

Your wording ("tragic occurrence") is over the top, and seems chosen to draw criticism. It did exactly that. Your joke about Patrick's situation was completely uncalled for. Hopefully you'll learn more appropriate ways to express yourself in public as you grow.

Please take this as not as an attack, but as an attempt to help you more suitably project an attitude of professionalism. If everyone merely moved on when they had a chance to offer guidance, the mission of FIRST would not be furthered.

The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

I fail to see how Patrick's first post is even relevant or appropriate here. The argument of "you shouldn't be sad because someone else is sadder" is as illogical as the equivalent "you shouldn't be happy because someone else is happier".

While I am very sorry for Patrick's loss, I am quite interested in seeing the justification for going off-topic and nitpicking the word choice of someone who just wants some input.

Definitions and Word Choice (was Re: ...possible tragic occurrence happened??)
 

The argument was not that "you shouldn't be sad because someone else is sadder [sic]." The argument is that the word "tragic" was erroneously used in this instance.

Per Webster.com (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tragic), the simple definitions are:

: causing strong feelings of sadness usually because someone has died in a way that seems very shocking, unfair, etc.

: involving very sad or serious topics : of or relating to tragedy

Per the same link, the full definitions are:

1: of, marked by, or expressive of tragedy <the tragic significance of the atomic bomb — H. S. Truman>

2 a : dealing with or treated in tragedy <the tragic hero>
b : appropriate to or typical of tragedy

3 a : regrettably serious or unpleasant : deplorable, lamentable <a tragic mistake>
b : marked by a sense of tragedy

Nowhere do the definitions even come close to describing the issue of foul points as "tragic".

Sorry for continuing to hijack this thread.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

The thread was hijacked by its title. Having been through difficult losses in playoffs, including robots torn in half, I'd say "tragic" is not the right term for anything robot related, barring a very serious accident involving a person (which thankfully hasn't occurred so far this season, though the child who made it into the field could have been one). Sorry to be pedantic, but there it is.

Re: Definitions and Word Choice (was Re: ...possible tragic occurrence happened??)
 

I think what he was getting at was different. Okay so lets continue this situation. What if I go and say...

"Patrick I know you had a few people die but that isn't tragic. Did you hear about the bubonic plague now thats tragic."

Isn't that out of line? Isn't using a dictionary definition to invalidate someone elses feelings and make them look (frankly petty) something that we don't want to be okay in the CD community?

I'm going to get so much heat for this I already know...

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Keep in mind you guys also had atleast thirty people screaming at the head referee for about ten minutes when you weren't even supposed to be able to

You guys still put up a good fight and a good performance at your succeeding events will probably book a ticket to States so it is nothing to lose sleep over.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

Thanks for the coming into to defend my opening subject line.

If I offend anybody with the word "tragic" do not take offense. Simply move on.

Being as I was an ER AND ICU nurse for 12 years plus worked in an ambulance I can better judge tragic than even Webster himself.
That being said--
I am unsure about the yelling and would profusely apologize if anybody on my team reacted that way. As my family was leaving we were able to personally acknowledge and congratulate the winners. I truly felt we had a winning time and all around wonderful experience for all.

As stated previously I needed clarification because of what I was being told by a student the explanation he was given by the ref still did not make sense to me. After the above clarified it now it is crystal clear.

Thanks to all who has been very helpful and informative.

Have a great week.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

And per Webster I will use "tragic" per the 3 b definition

Re: Definitions and Word Choice (was Re: ...possible tragic occurrence happened??)
 

I never invalidated his feelings of sadness. Using a dictionary definition to try and inform everyone as to how the term is supposed to be used is not an attempt at invalidation. It's an attempt at correction.

Re: Definitions and Word Choice (was Re: ...possible tragic occurrence happened??)
 

Never said that you did I said is disregarding someones problem over improper use of a word out of line.

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

My post wasn't helpful? I said in it that if it were a foul as you claimed, then you should have gotten +5 points. Turns out it wasn't a foul per se, and you got the +15 scaling points, and this had been pointed out prior to your making this thread, all of which makes the claim of a "possible tragic occurrence" even less appropriate.

Word choice matters; phrasing matters. If you want to be taken seriously, be mindful of both the connotation and the denotation of the words you use, how you use them, and in what context.

[As an aside, I'm almost impossible to offend and certainly wasn't offended in this case, not even by your downright callous joke about Mondays not being my thing.

But were I, nobody gets to say "if you were offended, don't be"--because you don't get to dictate what emotional reactions other people have.

Your choice at that point is how (and whether) to deal with the fact that they are offended/upset/what-have-you. (Anything from ignoring it to laughing at it to empathizing but doubling-down to apologizing are all actually possible, while making them non-offended/upset/what-have-you isn't, unless you have a mind-control ray and/or a time machine.)]

Re: Need Clarification on Foul Points-possible tragic occurrence happened??
 

I feel this thread has run its course, and then some. Can we get some closure on this, pun intended?