Chief Delphi - Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

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- - Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=145460)

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggy_gim (Post 1554164)

So would it be legal if the pole holding the camera was standing on the ground and not on top of the shelf that is provided for the operating console?

We (4009) had it attached to our driver's station and it's legal since there is no hight limit on the driver's station.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by laurenmj330 (Post 1555126)

We (4009) had it attached to our driver's station and it's legal since there is no hight limit on the driver's station.

The trick there is that your driver station is only allowed to be 14" deep (front to back), so now the pole is using up some of that valuable depth. If you try to stabilize the bottom of the pole by driving it into a bucket full of sand, for example, that takes up even more of the allowed depth; depending on how you mount your camera to the top, that may also use up more of the depth. If you aren't careful, you might eat up so much depth by doing this that you can't actually reach the velcro strip of the driver station shelf any more, and then your DS is vulnerable to being knocked off the shelf and onto the floor.

That was actually 862's original design for the CHAOS system, but it caused so many problems that we quickly switched to a shelf-mount strategy and never looked back!

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by iggy_gim (Post 1554157)

When you say attached, how so? Was it standing on the floor, attached via a pole to the operating console or was it fully supported by the Operating Console?

4009 had their driver station on a wooden board that held their DS, pole with camera and a large screen all in one setup. Pretty neat actually.
The best part was they were in Driver Station #2 so that alliance #3 Team 6175 could use it also to see the field for boulders.
We didnt need it since we have 2 cameras on our robot and just so happen was on the other side of the castle in DS #1.

We may employ something at our Hawaii event during Week 5 but not our upcoming NY trip week 3. We leave in 4 days already.:ahh:

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

I see no reason for why a camera pole must be attached to the Operator Console.

Quote:

T26-1 The only equipment, provided it does not block visibility for FIELD STEWARDS or audience
members or jam or interfere with the remote sensing capabilities of another Team, including
vision systems, acoustic range finders, sonars, infrared proximity detectors, etc. (e.g. including
imagery that, to a reasonably astute observer, mimics the Vision Guides), that may be brought in
to the CASTLE are as follows:
A. the OPERATOR CONSOLE,
B. non-powered signaling devices,
C. reasonable decorative items,
D. TEAM STANDARDS and devices, if needed, to assist placement in the Standard Holder,
E. special clothing and/or equipment required due to a disability
F. devices used solely for the purpose of planning or tracking strategy provided they meet all of
the following conditions:
i. do not connect or attach to the OPERATOR CONSOLE
ii. do not connect or attach to the FIELD or ARENA
iii. do not connect or attach to another ALLIANCE member
iv. do not communicate with anything or anyone outside of the ARENA.
v. do not include any form of enabled wireless electronic communication
(e.g. radios, walkie-talkies, cell phones, Bluetooth communications,
Wi-Fi, etc.)
vi. do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by
allowing PLAYERS to plan or track strategy for the purposes of
communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

If i'm interpreting this correctly T26-1-F seems to allow devices such as a camera on a pole so long as they aren't connected to the Operator Console. It seems the legality of such devices are completely dependent on what you call them. If you say it is part of the operator console then it must be attached to the operator console and fit within the correct dimensions. However, if you say that it is used solely for the purpose of planning/tracking strategy then it may be placed anywhere within the castle so long as it is not touching the Field/Arena or the Operator console.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Watch 2122 at AZ North the next two days to see the pole in action. A few other teams are already working on cloning the idea as well.

On the note of T26-1, look at vi of bullet F. I would hardly say a camera used for obtaining a better live view of your robot and the field for your drivers does "not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by allowing PLAYERS to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members." If you've used it to make any driving decision like running an intake or lining up a shot it has affected the outcome of the match.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

read the rest of part vi.

Quote:

do not in any way affect the outcome of a MATCH, other than by
allowing PLAYERS to plan or track strategy for the purposes of
communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by will Tickman (Post 1555341)

other than by
allowing PLAYERS to plan or track strategy for the purposes of
communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members.

Could it be said that the pole is used to control communication between alliance members? Obviously, if one team has a periscope camera, it could be used to help the alliance with placement on the field.

It's too much of a flip-flop issue to know for sure. I feel like it depends on the Head Ref at whatever event you're at.

Hopefully we get a clarification in a future team update if this issue becomes more and more popular between teams and events.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by will Tickman (Post 1555341)

read the rest of part vi.

I did, communicating "turn left to line up with that goal" is not planning strategy. You may use a camera station to help plan strategy, but you can also use it for non-planning and tracking uses, and there is not really a way to exclude that capability.

That's how I interpret it, but I'm only reffing at AZ North and I don't expect that to come up in the next two days.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Landonh12 (Post 1555342)

Could it be said that the pole is used to control communication between alliance members?

Yes, the way I see it the camera is used to track in-match strategy/gameplay which then helps the entire alliance make better strategic decisions. I think the point you're getting at is that it must help not only your team but the other teams on your alliance as well which there are many scenarios which it could help the entire alliance, like freeing stuck robots from defenses. However, this will be hard to prove if the head ref never allows it to happen.

Quote:

but you can also use it for non-planning and tracking uses, and there is not really a way to exclude that capability.

Because this method prohibits you from connecting it to the operator console you are limited to simply watching the camera feed and making decisions off of that. I don't see how this data could be used to make a decision and not be used for planning or tracking. I can't come up with any examples of non-planning/tracking uses other than maybe entertainment but I don't think they'll prohobit that.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

We were through the legality discussion last year, and the relevant rules have not changed. Additionally, there are plenty of Q+A rulings on the subject! The final answer is that it must be part of the driver station.

Quote:

Q890 Q. Based on the answer to Q851 I'm assuming this is legal, however would having the camera connected to the operator console laptop violate T26-1? Would it be legal to have the webcam attached to the pole and connected to the operator console laptop to display the live feed from the webcam? The live feed would be shown locally on the laptop and would not be sending anything to the FMS or the driver station dashboard.
A. The OPERATOR CONSOLE is specifically allowed in the CASTLE per T26-1 A. Per Q851 there is no specified maximum height of the OPERATOR CONSOLE. We will not rule on the legality of specific parts or setups, if you have further questions about a specific rule, please rephrase and resubmit

Quote:

Q851 Q. Are teams allowed to mount approximately a ten foot pole with a wired camera on top to their individual driver station and get a bird's eye view of the match for driver use during the match?
A. There is no legislated maximum height of the OPERATOR CONSOLE. However, be aware that some venues and production setups may have basketball hoops, lighting fixtures, or other installments that can not be moved and may inhibit exceptionally tall OPERATOR CONSOLES. Also, please keep safety in mind when moving and setting up tall OPERATOR CONSOLES like this.

Quote:

Q593 Q. Are teams allowed to include a wired video camera connected to their drivers station on their team standard to improve visibility? Can teams include LEDs on their standard?
A. Any wired connection from the Team STANDARD to the OPERATOR CONSOLE would violate rule T9 because the STANDARD would not meet the Team Standard Specification (specifically the volume requirements). The OPERATOR CONSOLE does not include the Team STANDARD. There are no rules preventing Teams from including LEDs on their STANDARDS as long as it is fully compliant with the Team Standard Specification.

Quote:

Q771

Q. Wouldn't a periscope be allowed under T26-1.F because it is used for tracking strategy ie where are the Boulders and robots?
A. T26-1 permits such devices per F. iv. "to plan or track strategy for the purposes of communication of that strategy to other ALLIANCE members." A periscope does not meet this or any other element of T26-1 and is thus not permitted.

Quote:

Q753 Q. Can the driver/operator or coach use a very tall periscope device to gain a better view of the field in Teleop? (1 Follow-Up Questions)
A. Such a device is not listed in T26-1 and thus not permitted.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd (Post 1555466)

Additionally, there are plenty of Q+A rulings on the subject! The final answer is that it must be part of the driver station.
.

Thank you, it seems that the ruling on Q77I pretty clearly prohibits using a camera as special equipment under T26-1. However, I'd really like an official ruling on this since the Q+A isn't really official and FIRST does sometimes clarify rulings if they believe the Q+A got it wrong, but until then they'll have to remain as part of the driver station.

Thank you for the replies guys. We at currently at NYC and used it during one of our practice matches yesterday and found it to a be a good help, especially when crossing defenses and getting around other bots. Looking forward to seeing it's usefulness in the remaindremainder of our matches.

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Our team likely had one of the best implemented camera "periscopes" at our regional event. It was securely mounted to a retractable pole and securely fastened to our driver station.

We were told by the head ref in our second to last match that our pole/periscope was "un-safe"

I expect this to be an issue for teams that didn't implement the periscope as well as we did, and there will be plenty of inconsistent ruling across events. Maybe FIRST will have to put out an update on this one too....

Re: Ten Foot Pole behind the castle wall

Our team used it thought our First District event (week 2), there were some questions about its legality, but the FTA and head ref came to the conclusion it was legal. However, we have been informed that there will be a meeting soon that will go over the legality of the periscope in future events as well as clarify the meaning to connected to the drive station. Our team, for instance, just had the monitor connected to the same power strip as the drive station but was not permanently succeeded in any way.