The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

This was a strategy that was independently conceived by team 4476, and since we have now completed our season. Also credit to 610 who seems to have pulled this strategy out at GTR East for Semifinals Match 2-1. Basically this is a strategy to attempt to take down a high powered alliance at a regional/worlds

The whole concept is to block the opponents into their own secret passageway.



We need to look up the relevant rules:

Can't touch them when both of you are in the secret passageway. Pretty simple

Can't pin them for more than 5 seconds. But this isn't a "traditional pin"

Here is the grey area. It says “to prevent or stop something from moving.” I interpret this section such that as long as they are able to move (for example they have 1/3 of the field that they can still move around in, this is fine.

The last part of the rules is the extreme grey area. "Generally, pins that exceed fifteen (15) seconds are considered
extended and egregious, regardless of a pinning ROBOT’s mobility,
however circumstances vary and the assesment is open to REFEREE
discretion." If you prevent a robot from getting to where they want to go in the match, but still (technically) have 1/3 of the field to drive on.

Basically the only thing here is that you can't stop an opponent from entering their secret passage way per E, but you can stop them from coming out.

If there is a defender in your own courtyard, the robot MUST exit by the secret passageway, or else they will incur a foul

If there is no defender or they attempt to go around the secret passage and try to pass you via crossing your defenses, you are protected, so if you attempt to always cross the defense they are trying to get over, then they can't continue without incurring a foul.

It can also be used to block the third robot from a capture, if you know that your defender can outdrive them, similarly to 2013 how you would block a hang and go hang last second.

I consider this to be perfectly legal. What are your thoughts? Absolute worst case, you can only block them for 15 seconds.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

You've gotten G21 flipped around. If the RED robot is in the BLUE passageway, they may not contact a BLUE robot.

If you are in your own passageway, you cannot draw a foul in that way

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

Can be a pretty effective defense but I don't really see it as a chokehold. Especially since the defending robot has to drive in an arc around the secret passage while the red robot could turn 45 degrees from where it is at now and simply drive forward or back depending on position of the defending robot. Red robots could also work together to keep the defense on one side of the arc. I know at Arizona North, 2122 was pushing robots trying to block team 125's vision.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

This is my take on it too. Might be effective 1v1, but pretty easy to break out of as soon as a second red robot gets involved.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

If you have a robot herd a boulder out of the secret passage and in running your plan push that boulder back into their secret passage I believe that is a foul.
The current meta doesn't involve teams diving into the secret passage for balls when the human player can bowl them into the neutral.

So yeah the strategy would kinda work but it isn't a choke hold. And as stated before you got G21 flipped around. If you ran this you would actually pull fouls because a robot has the right of way in their own secret passage in regards to an opposing robot.

Also I'm agreeing with Rangel if that isn't clear dude knew his bidnizz in Arizona North

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

So you're suggesting there are drivers skilled enough to pin a robot in a corner for ~15 seconds and they wouldn't initiate a pin during that 15 seconds else the would be the ones required to disengage per G22. Oh and of course, cross a defense and challenge the tower in the last 5 seconds, hoping the other driver cant do the same. It's not going to happen, this strategy is mutually assured destruction.

This works in 1 situation. You're winning by less than 25 points. You haven't weakened the tower. Your opponent has weakened the tower. Your opponent doesn't have enough hanging capable robots to take the lead even without a capture.

If you manage to get in that one insanely specific and unlikely place where you as the weaker alliance have a lead but have worse boulder score, go for it

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

I agree. While it makes sense on paper, having had my team's alliance run this defence at GTR-E, it is a larger area to protect than you think and you leave yourself open to collect fouls everytime your wheel is touching the carpet of the secret passage. Team 5596 was an excellent defender but a fast, powerful robot can easily push through one side while you are defending the other. If you try cutting the diagonal you will draw fouls. It is too open to referee interpretation to be worth it.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

So to me this is just a smart way to defend a robot that cycled back into their own secret passage. I don't see this as a chokehold, but just a smart way to run a defensive robot.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

Nope this is the way I interpret it. You misunderstand I believe.

A 2v1 is still good for you, your defender (the worst robot) is taking up the time of their two best robots. And yes, ultimately it comes down to defender driving skill. I am quite certain that a team is capable of pulling this off.

No, I have G21, correct, the BLUE robot defending the RED robot in the RED secret passage may not contacts the RED robot while touching the carpet of the RED secret passageway.

The robot sits there and blocks all the bowls. Pretty simple solution to that.

To each his own opinon, but 3rd robot of #1 seed will almost definitely be slower than #1/2 of a lower seeded alliance. I would put my confidence in them. I'm also not even sure if it is a "pin"

5596 was driving in the RED secret passageway, as you stated. There are drivers that are able to not drive in the secret passageway.

Correct, in most cases this is just a smart play. The "chokehold" is if the defender is very capable :)

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

All I can say right now is that it is challenging to pull off without drawing penalties, but still definitely possible.

It's not a chokehold, per se, because if your opponents know how to react to it, they can still get boulders - albeit much slower.

You need to make sure your team playing defence knows exactly what is allowed and what isn't, which is difficult to convey during Saturday lunch, without ever having practiced it.

You also need to invest the time in explaining to the refs what you are doing so they are going to call it as expected. Some things can be subject to interpretation.

Are you allowed to position yourself at the end of the opponent's SP and let opposing boulders bounce off you so they stay in the SP? You definitely should.

Should you be able to play defence in the neutral zone to prevent your opponents from getting balls that are outside the SP? Yes, of course, but if there are balls near the opening of the SP that you are defending, things get murky.

I also agree that you should be able to box opponents in to their own SP based on how the rules are currently written.

You need to tell the refs exactly what you expect to happen as well... and what penalties should be called in what circumstances.

Our attempt in SF2-1 at GTRE was not really well executed, but enough to prove the concept and learn how to improve on it. We held the opponent to 6 boulders scored, but there are a lot of penalty calls, so it's still very debatable. It wasn't a very close match when you see all the penalties.

I think it will catch on more as the weeks go by, however. Not too many will try due to the penalty potential, but those who can successfully do it will be able to pull some upsets. It might be interesting to see 2nd picks at Champs focused on teams who can play defense in this way effectively.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

Fair enough. I think all three alliance teams would need a significant amount of FRC experience to get those things to align (esp. convincing the referees) but there are many teams out there with that experience and at world's we will see them. I certainly would consider using it (or a variation of it) again (though I am waiting for the GTRE videos to go up online to review it) especially in a situation where we are facing a much stronger alliance. I do agree that we will see this defence run again as the season progresses.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

How doesn't this violate G11?

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

Because it doesn't force anyone to take any penalties.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

G43 has nothing to do with preventing robots from traversing their own defense. It only says you can't contact the opposing robot in your own Outerworks. But you can still traverse them yourself (Alliance 4's defense robot drove through their Sally Port during the last 30 seconds of the match when they were facing Alliance 1 at Lakeview and received no penalties).

Therefore, no chokehold.

Re: The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?
 

However, if they touch you while YOU'RE in their defense, they get a penalty. They are penalized for violating rule G43, as you are parked in the defense that they try to cross. G43 does not cover a robot stopping an opponent from trying to cross their own defenses.