Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard (Post 1556341)

You're right, but we're also dealing with high school students who put their heart and soul into a robot and into every match, and kids seeing their seasons end because of something not being counted inspires nobody.

(also in this specific case its very easy to tell regardless of what video it was that the stack was up- that's not really arguable)

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher (Post 1556346)

This discussion is good to have but I don't like bashing the referees or the disregard for the rules the you agreed to play under.

Please remember that 99% of the volunteers working any event are doing this for the love of the game. The game is played as fairly and evenhanded as possible. To suggest otherwise is a discredit to all those who give their time and energy to this.

We have all

Originally Posted by dradel (Post 1556345)

I still want to know how so many crossings are being missed. I saw 5 today alone while watching streams on and off of wpi and the Blacksburg event. Let alone the ones I saw from the Waterbury event last weekend.

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1556332)

Because the vast majority of the calls that would be made are judgement calls. FIRST seems to have made the determination that only referees can provide that judgement in some years (2014 and 2016 come to mind). I can't say I'd trust someone who just "knows the game" with determining whether team X crossed a defense--there is a very specific definition of Crossing, and that very specific definition has led to numerous teams not quite meeting it and then complaining about it not being called. Just trust me on that.

If you don't have the training of a referee, why would you try to make a referee's call?

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1556347)

This always gets me. Cant not agree to them when its the only game in town.

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher (Post 1556351)

It's not the only game in town. I am the biggest advocate that the team is the customer but if you have done this for more one season, you should understand how this works.

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1556348)

Something to think about:

If a referee isn't sure that a crossing happened, they will not count it. There's a blue box to that effect. What that means in some cases is that a team doesn't quite clear the ramps (thereby remaining in the defenses) and reverses back over. That's not a crossing. Might not be terribly obvious on the webcast that their bumper (or other appendage) is hanging over, but there's that possibility.

Originally Posted by dradel (Post 1556357)

Well when a team goes over one of the defenses and is 4' away from the driver station wall and doesn't get credit for crossing in auto that is a problem. Even if you didn't see them cross but as you look about the field and see 2 bots well past the outer works and don't push a button on the scoring screens that is an issue. I mean how did they end up there if they didn't cross??

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1556352)

I have, 10 years in fact, and over those 10 years the rules have most definitely changed quite a bit.

Originally Posted by JohnBoucher (Post 1556360)

The whole reason we do this has not changed.

Originally Posted by dodar (Post 1556362)

We do this for the students. And we should do right by the students. Both at home and at competitions.

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1556359)

Then that is something to bring up to the head referee. Just tell him that you were clearly past the outer works in auto and got no credit. If the Head Referee isn't listening, the next person to talk to would be the Volunteer Coordinator or Regional Director--they'll back up the head referee in on-field calls, but if enough teams are saying something they'll probably have a chat. And it it's just that one ref isn't pressing their buttons, then the head ref can take measures...

Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1556363)

In the real world, does somebody sometimes win X that they shouldn't have because Y?


Now the question becomes, is it better for the students to expose them to this now, or not?

Understand that I'm not saying that missed calls are a good thing. Learning how to handle missed calls, however, can be invaluable.