Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Please share this, tweet this, etc. FIRST students put too much effort into their robots to be cheated out of their achievements like this anymore.

As much as FIRST has done for me over the years, one of my biggest problems with the organization is the rule that forces Referees to ignore video evidence exposing bad calls made on the field. Just today at the New York City Regional, teams 395, 2869, and 1546 were cheated out of their win in the second quarterfinals match by a failure to count a defense cross that would have earned 5 points for cross as well as a 20 point bonus for a successful breach of defenses. This forced a third match which this alliance, flustered and confused by the flawed results, lost, causing a deserving group of students to miss a chance to play in the semifinal matches. Footage was provided from 2 different angles but not considered as per rules, and the match remained in the wrong team's hands. Even a replay of the match couldn't be considered. We all know from experience how hard all these students worked for this moment, and to lose in an unfairly judged match is an insult to their efforts and could drive them away from their interests in science and technology, the exact opposite of what FIRST stands for. The teams' hopes were destroyed because the rules don't allow Referees to use all available information to admit their mistakes. This is not what FIRST is about and I am ashamed of how this situation wasn't handled. Its probably too late to correct this individual incident, but we can stop this from happening again. FIRST, please change this policy against video reviews, and referees, please at least consider replays of the whole match. Some already do this, but it needs be standardized to stop this from happening again. I'm open to discussion here, because this is something that needs to be talked about, but please spread the word.

I've heard counterarguments that this would prolong regional events and video could be unreliable. These are no excuses to discredit the effort of these students, as I witnessed firsthand Referees spending more time refusing to watch video than it would have taken to watch the clips 3 times over. In addition, professional sports have already solved the video reliability issue by necessitating that the calls be overturned beyond any reasonable doubt by the evidence, and it's worked well. This can happen, and I hope as a community we can come together to make sure matches are fair and teams earn the credit they deserve.

Note regarding edits: the original edit of this post contained content unfairly judging the way the Referees handled this situation that I sincerely regret ever writing, and I sincerely apologize for any damage I may have caused. For every one mistake made, volunteer referees have made thousands upon thousands of fair calls and correct decisions, without which FIRST wouldn't be able to exist. Thank you to all involved in this tough rule writing and enforcing process for taking the time to help students despite harsh negative feedback and disrespect. The few and far between problems have to this point been handled as well as they could have been, but I hope to be able to help further improve the process for teams in the future to have the best experiences they can.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Regardless of your feeling towards the rules, the referees acted fully within the rules with regards to video rules and replays, so don't express your anger towards them.

Referee mistakes suck (hello 2014), and they happen, and I'm not going to tell you to get over it, but don't hate the player, hate the game.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

My apologies, I was rather angry when I wrote that and attacked the wrong thing. Edited to reflect the real problem in the rule.

Refs, thanks for volunteering, regardless of calls events don't run without you guys at all.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I agree with Gregor on this one, but also, I'd shoot an email to frcteams@firstinspires.org regarding your concern. I think it's a good idea for refs to accept video evidence (many a time have bad referee calls been detrimental to my own team's performance).

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I strongly disagree. Video review opens a can of worms that should be left closed. Beyond simple time delays, it poses concerns regarding what source of video reviews should be allowed, how many videos should be allowed, what level of evidence is needed, what is the timing/procedure for calling video reviews*, how many video reviews are allowed, etc.

*Anyone who's been an alliance captain before already knows the confusion and heartburn of figuring out timeout and back-up coupon timings.

Video review in sports has been anything but a panacea, and they have countless more camera angles and video analysis tools than will be at the disposal of referees in FRC.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Dear Patrick

(and Dear Others that think a team got robbed of a victory)

Thanks for posting and a bigger thanks for you volunteering to help out at the next two events. Your help will be deeply appreciated.

Video replay / electronic scoring isn't what you think it is. NASCAR races at ~30 tracks and has spent millions on putting sensors into the tracks to mark the position of the cars. MLB / NFL with their limited number of stadiums has spent millions of dollars along with more millions by FOX/NBC/CBS/ABC/ESPN on video technology to be able to manage video replays.

I'm super pleased that you've decided to dedicate you next two years to doing this work for FIRST and I'm super excited to listen to your announcement on the partner dollars you've signed up to contribute, your new TV funded dollars and how that charging people to come watch the event to also help fund this will work out. Or that you hit Powerball to pay for all of this and are donating the proceeds.

I'm hoping that a referee reaches out to you and has you come stand next to them on the field. One would think, from sitting in the stands, that being a referee is a piece of cake. In reality down on the field it's overly bright, it's noisy, it's a huge amount to watch.

Other than being the Volunteer Coordinator, there is no worse job in FIRST than being a referee. There isn't any upside since you are not getting paid, the pizza was pretty bad (cheese only really?) , and frankly you have a closet full of robot shirts. And I'm calling BS on that "Vertical Stripes are slimming"

Other than you are out there making a difference, making an effort to improve the world. Giving up your only non-replaceable thing in your life, time, to help other people.

To find out that they are ungrateful, condescending, and mocking your efforts to help them.

But, since you've signed up to be one of them at the next two events, I look forward to your post in 4 weeks to see how your world view has changed. Welcome to the world of being a volunteer!

Warmest personal regards,
Foster

(Why yes, that was filled full of snark and sarcasm. Make sure you send me your VIMS number on how many events you are helping at when you send your complaint mail).

[[ Edited to add: So I posted right after the post came up. I type slow and try to proofread, so I'm now number 6 behind an edited post. ]]

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Here's where I start to get rustled.

A simple overhead view of the field can be used to solve all disputes in FRC.
There is very little room to argue with this. FIRST could implement the system themselves as its not that complicated of a system to put in place.

As to who's video? Obviously the only video that would be reviewed would be from FIRST's own camera system. There would be no 3rd party camera footage viewing allowed, similarly to how things are now.

This isn't sports. In FRC the game pieces are simple, the rules are simple, and the problem is no where as complicated as you think it is.

My perspective: I've been a Head Ref for FTC events for several years now.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I call BS.

A simple overhead camera? I'm assuming you mean similar to the fisheye cameras used by FiM/MAR/Indiana. Because if you mean a true overhead camera, that's simply not a realistic option at the vast majority of FRC venues (and certainly not an option without additional rigging costs on the venue side). And if you mean some other static camera (or even a true overhead), there are still plenty of disputes that will not be able to solve. Was a robot's wheel touching the outerworks at the end of autonomous, or just their bumper overhanging? Did their mechanism extend more than 15" beyond the frame perimeter? Did their robot fully stop contacting the drawbridge door momentarily? What was the game clock at that second during the overhead view? Heck, I'm watching the Tippecanoe stream right now, and there are still quite literal blind spots behind easy drawbridge/portcullis (as well as smaller ones behind the towers). No single camera is going to solve all FRC disputes.

Nor did you address any of the other questions I raised.


e; To demonstrate my point, I just captured this from the NYC webstream. While the lack of quality is due to stream compression, the general point still stands. This is what typically constitutes an overhead view in FRC. Did the robot in the orange circle cross the defense? Commit a penalty?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Also, one thing with FRC that is different than traditional sports is that the game changes every year. Let that sink in for a moment. In traditional sports, let's say, soccer for example, the game never changes. Albeit maybe a few minor rules (I know the offside rule changes frequently) but nowhere near the frequency that new FRC games get introduced. This essentially means that at this time in the season (week 2), any FRC referee can only have 2-3 months of experience and by champs they could have 4-5 months (maybe) of referee experience, whereas traditional sports referees have 20 to 30 years playing the game with only minor variations.

May I add that FRC games are WAY more complicated than traditional sports games. I could argue this but I do not have the energy nor the full keyboard to use.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I don't know if you read the edits before noticing themon your edit, but by no means am I trying to discredit referees themselves. I agree that you have it tough, students and mentors alike can be ungrateful at times. However, I have never seen a more respectful approach than the one my students on 395 took to the issue. They did not get nearly as angry as I did, they did not lose their heads, and they did not root against the alliance that advanced to semis. Instead they decided to start making efforts to stop this from happening in future years despite being largely composed of seniors. All FIRST volunteers deserve respect, especially Referees and Judges, but a change to the video policy would be a huge step in the right direction. No teams could feel like they have any right to feel unfairly judged because calls would be right every time, or at least far more often. The students deserve fair play, and the refs deserve respect for their efforts and a way to make sure they can deliver what students ask of them. A video review policy will help both groups get what they deserve. If this still offends you, I don't know what to tell you.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Just a note - this is an perennial tough subject and the conversation is good, but make sure to write it out, breathe, think, and edit appropriately.

If you're interested, theres a few threads in the archives about this subject too.

The fact that I have seen more than a handful of crossings not given credit several in auto is garbage. In the heat of a match I could see things being missed, but how does one miss a crossing in auto?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

A related thread to video reviews this year:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...84#post1555484

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I might agree to the use of video replay, on one condition only.

But that one condition will, in all probability, ruin the entire concept for most of the proponents of using replay.

Ready?


You MUST use the video to prove that you LOST a match that you won, as well as the other way around. That is, if video you take shows that the other alliance should have won the match, and they did not, you need to provide that video to the referees and tell them that you should not have won the match.

Anybody got any objections? How about when it's F3 and you just won the regional by a dubious call that should have gone against you?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

It's not video review, but big props to 4342 did something very similar in 2014 at Chestnut Hill. Their alliance was improperly given credit for an autonomous shot they missed in QF1-3, and members of 4342's drive team came to the question box with members of the opposing alliance. As a result, the head ref allowed for a replay of QF1-3, in which 4342's alliance ultimately ended up being eliminated. 4342 being willing to risk their trip to the SFs (thus effectively ending their season) on behalf of getting the call on the field correct was a terrific example of graciousness. I still applaud them for it.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Thank you for posting this. I hadn't thought about this before and I fully agree. I think all steps possible should be taken to ensure fair play, and especially in the culture FIRST is trying to promote and is so important, if a team knows they lost and can prove it they should because it's the right thing to do, like using your timeout to give opponents more time to make repairs, or being honest in describing your abilities to teams looking to make picks.

That being said, I don't know how a rule mandating this would be enforced, or if it would need to be. To this point, I have seen so many examples of Gracious Professionalism in the way students handle competing. I've witnessed teams lend parts, timeouts, expertise, and even drivers to short-staffed teams, often contributing to losses. There's no way to determine whether or not a team has the necessary video, nor is there a way to confiscate a device or files so the refs could view them, but because of what FIRST is, I can't see a need for such a rule.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The only way for FIRST to accept video evidence is if they provide the video evidence on FIRST owned and operated equipment. I agree that teams can sometimes be cheated out of that, my team was one of them in Semi Final 3 at Virginia 2014 with a 50 pointer that really should've been a 20 pointer.

But with that being said, I do think they should accept video if they are the ones providing it so that it can be unbiased and incorporate all angles and such. From someone who's been there, I feel you.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

While games will never be free of tough calls, quite honestly a lot of the problems that call for video review shouldn't be problems in the first place. We need a game that is designed to minimize referee calls and not patched up with dozens of rules trying to legislate the ideal / intended way to play the game.

Specifically, games with scoring determined by humans watching for actions should have humans devoted solely to watching those actions. We didn't learn this lesson in 2014?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

You'd like me to go through every part of your argument? I have loads of time today.

Time delays are a valid concern. I'll use the Orlando Regional as a benchmark for a lot of things I'll talk about here since that was my most recent experience. We were 1.5 hours behind schedule pretty much all the time. Taking up the time of normal refs with this new video system I'm proposing would not work. Yet, I see the solution as simple and I'll provide my solution.

In qualifications if there is a disputed match where a team believes there was something not scored correctly we could have an additional referee who's entire job it was is to review video to sort these problems out. You don't even have to take the time of the normal match refs to do this sort of after-match verification. The video ref could take a look at the camera view footage to determine if the appropriate call was made.

The review time for videos would be kept short if a designated video review ref could not find indisputable evidence that the call was botched then there would be no changes.

In eliminations where the match scores are in my opinion even more critical to maintaining the quality of the event you can follow a similar procedure. Give at max 5 minutes to determine the call.

As I said previously. The only video that would be reviewed would be that from an official FIRST mandated system.

A overhead camera like this one. https://youtu.be/PNs40CrPWUk?t=10s
A solution would have to be found. FIRST provides the field, the ref system, etc. This would have to become part of it.

It would very obvious that the camera would have to provide a high enough resolution video of the entire field to be validly able to determine calls.

Some of those calls that you just mentioned can't even be called consistently by the refs with their own eyes during the course of a match let alone an event. (i.e 15" perimeter rule, crossings, etc.) If you watched that video you'd even see that crossings were not being counted correctly even over the simple defenses.

Blind spots are valid and just like in football where sometimes a call can't be made definitively even with camera angles a call would just have to be left to stand. HOWEVER, if it can be proven with a simple system like the overhead camera like I am proposing than that alone is a drastic improvement.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I'd actually argue that any video provided should be considered, especially if FIRST's camera(s) can't get a good angle on a situation but outside video can. When clear video can't be provided or the situation for any reason remains impossible to determine one way or another beyond any reasonable doubt, the Referee ruling should stand. Video of an event can't really add bias without showing an incomplete picture thereby making it ambiguous. Therefore I see no reason not to at least allow Referees to consider outside clips.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

John, I'm assuming that you're volunteering as the video referee for any and all events you're attending. If you're not attending one event per week, you're not attending enough events. You just added one volunteer--in an extraordinarily tough position--that will need training. I don't see anybody volunteering for that one. We've got enough problems finding referees as it is.

Unless you're volunteering to head out to some of the areas that can't find refs and give them a hand, of course.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Why does it need to be a ref? All it needs to be is someone who knows the game. They wont be looking for anything unless a team came forward with a specific request. And even then the team could point out the exact moment they believed something happened. The person doesnt need to be a true referee.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Sure. If that's what it takes I'd volunteer. I'll make the whole system if I have to.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

A few things:

True overhead camera views (like the one RoboShow set up at the Orlando Regional this year) are only simple if a number of venue conditions are met. It needs to have a convenient catwalk or overhead trusses that you can mount the camera on (usually a decent expectation at a regional, but not in a district event held in a local high school gym, or in a number of other venues that regionals use.) And you need a decent cable to connect it to your switcher that's usually a couple hundred feet long at least. And, of course, it needs to be a fairly high quality camera with either a wide field of view or a decent zoom depending on how close to the field your mount point is.

Even if all of these conditions are met, I wouldn't call the set up "simple".

Also, it's often not the regional that's running the cameras. Usually the video put onto the screen at the event is run by a contractor.

I would love to see every FIRST event with a broadcast that could support such a replay system, but I don't see that happening, especially with the push to go towards lower cost district events in smaller venues.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Because the vast majority of the calls that would be made are judgement calls. FIRST seems to have made the determination that only referees can provide that judgement in some years (2014 and 2016 come to mind). I can't say I'd trust someone who just "knows the game" with determining whether team X crossed a defense--there is a very specific definition of Crossing, and that very specific definition has led to numerous teams not quite meeting it and then complaining about it not being called. Just trust me on that.

If you don't have the training of a referee, why would you try to make a referee's call?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

So here's a situation that occurred last year:

2015 Tech Valley Regional, 20-5254-3624 had an incredible match in a make-it-or-break-it 2nd quarterfinal match, placing 4 stacks total for the first time. When the scores came up, it had our alliance with something like 119 points, and as we analyzed the score, we realized they had only credited us for 3 stacks!

We sent some students to the question box, and the referees came together and discussed that they did remember us having 4 stacks up.

From my understanding of the situation (I was not in the question box nor in the referee's discussion), they then looked at video provided by two different teams that showed 4 stacks built 5-6 high and ended up reversing the call of that match, which ended up allowing us to move on to the semifinals.

Tech Valley is a generally relaxed event, with some great referees and teams who are always gracious, and I don't think anyone involved thought what the referees did was unfair. Am I wrong?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I don't think video replay is ever going to work out in FRC, but one aspect I think needs to change is that when teams go to the question box, their concerns should actually be heard. This week I've seen some blatantly wrong calls and also some final scores that were incorrect and teams going to the question box usually got about a one sentence explanation before being waived off.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

No comment on anything else, but I will say that the game manual (both last year and this year) contained the following statement:

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

You're right, but we're also dealing with high school students who put their heart and soul into a robot and into every match, and kids seeing their seasons end because of something not being counted inspires nobody.

(also in this specific case its very easy to tell regardless of what video it was that the stack was up- that's not really arguable)

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

With the addition of a fish-eye view camera, two seperate cameras on each side of the field could also be used. This doesn't seem like a very hard concept. The Orlando regional archives all video footage on YouTube literally minutes after the match is played. This requires a good internet connection at the venue and a lot of other factors.

Simply setting up three cameras and taking video of each match is not a hard thing to do. Currently there are three cameras set up at CVR that give a pretty good view of most of the field. For instance, a student can go to the question box and tell the refs that there was a mistake on their part in the last match at 1:39. The refs can then go on a computer on the FMS table and watch that specific portion of the match and make a ruling.

If there is no indisputable evidence of the question by the student, then it can be said that, just like in the NFL, there is no hard evidence for the call to be overturned.

I have been affected by wrong calls several times in my 3 years as driver of 364. (especially at worlds, where our ranking was affected). Sure, it's an iffy issue, but I'd like to see what FIRST has to say about something like this.

Also, you'd think that with all of the money that comes in for a regional, something like this wouldn't be much of an issue.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

You're 100% correct, and I'm glad that the situation was resolved to the satisfaction of those involved. I just wanted to point out that this verbiage was present in the manual last year as well. I wasn't implying that the revision shouldn't have counted.

I still want to know how so many crossings are being missed. I saw 5 today alone while watching streams on and off of wpi and the Blacksburg event. Let alone the ones I saw from the Waterbury event last weekend.
I asked my drivers about and they told me that during the drivers meeting the refs said if they didn't see it then it didn't happen, and not to come to the question box about it.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

This discussion is good to have but I don't like bashing the referees or the disregard for the rules the you agreed to play under.

Please remember that 99% of the volunteers working any event are doing this for the love of the game. The game is played as fairly and evenhanded as possible. To suggest otherwise is a discredit to all those who give their time and energy to this.

We have all had thing go against us. GP allows us to move beyond it and appreciate what we have accomplished.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

This always gets me. Cant not agree to them when its the only game in town.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Something to think about:

If a referee isn't sure that a crossing happened, they will not count it. There's a blue box to that effect. What that means in some cases is that a team doesn't quite clear the ramps (thereby remaining in the defenses) and reverses back over. That's not a crossing. Might not be terribly obvious on the webcast that their bumper (or other appendage) is hanging over, but there's that possibility.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The person running it simply has to go to the spot where the student says something was missed or penalty was called wrong and bring a ref over to look at it real quick. Could honestly be in between matches too and only if a student has a valid complaint and a general time in the match in which it happened. And hey if the videos are all saved too then now we have videos of every match at every regional and we solved that problem too! :] Idk maybe that's the real reason I would like to see this happen.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

It's not the only game in town. I am the biggest advocate that the team is the customer but if you have done this for more one season, you should understand how this works.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I have, 10 years in fact, and over those 10 years the rules have most definitely changed quite a bit.

Well when a team goes over one of the defenses and is 4' away from the driver station wall and doesn't get credit for crossing in auto that is a problem. Even if you didn't see them cross but as you look about the field and see 2 bots well past the outer works and don't push a button on the scoring screens that is an issue. I mean how did they end up there if they didn't cross??

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Then that is something to bring up to the head referee. Just tell him that you were clearly past the outer works in auto and got no credit. If the Head Referee isn't listening, the next person to talk to would be the Volunteer Coordinator or Regional Director--they'll back up the head referee in on-field calls, but if enough teams are saying something they'll probably have a chat. And it it's just that one ref isn't pressing their buttons, then the head ref can take measures...

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The whole reason we do this has not changed.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

We do this for the students. And we should do right by the students. Both at home and at competitions.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

In the real world, does somebody sometimes win X that they shouldn't have because Y?


Now the question becomes, is it better for the students to expose them to this now, or not?

Understand that I'm not saying that missed calls are a good thing. Learning how to handle missed calls, however, can be invaluable.

Again when teams are told during driver meeting not to even come to the box for a missed cross it is kind of hard to expect these teenagers to push like that.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

In real life, you have access to lots of ways to challenge a ruling too.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

That's something to bring up with the RD/VC. I'd like to think that if a ref crew was missing crossings, they'd like to know that they need to keep a sharper eye out.

By the way, you weren't looking at any spy-bots by any chance, were you?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

As a Rookie Mentor on a Rookie team I hesitate to wade into this, but I do have a question....

It seems clear between the 2015 and 2016 games the referees jobs have gotten clearly more difficult, mostly because of the number of things they must watch and keep track of now.

As to the question: Has the GDC increased the number of referees from 2015 to 2016 to handle this change?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I'll preface my response with: You should watch 2014. Referees everywhere breathed a sigh of relief when 2015 came out. I'd like to think 2012 and 2013 were somewhat easier than 2014 (didn't ref those two so I can't compare as well). 2016 is harder still due to sightlines.

But the answer to your question is both yes and no. Many events try to have one extra ref "on staff" so they can carry on with a full on-field crew if someone has to drop out, or more usually to give refs a break every so often. Some head refs would put that "extra" ref on-field for key matches like playoffs. That "extra" position is now an official one, and with a full crew can be manned and still have a ref taking a break.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I don't know that I 100% agree with video replay, but people are blowing the level of difficulty WAY out of proportion here. It's 2016, there are some very affordable & simple A/V setups that are possible now.

Here's what it would take to implement a basic level of high quality video review -

- 1 volunteer to man the webcast PC. I get that volunteers are scarce but that's a bad excuse to not do something that will improve events big time.
- 1 GoPro on a tall pole. The one we used at St. Louis this past weekend used a $20 speaker stand, a 7-8 ft. tall PVC pipe, a GoPro and a cell phone charger with a USB cable to give the GoPro power all weekend.
- An HDMI input recorder like the Elegato to allow for recording of the GoPro's view.
- Software to record the stream locally on the PC. We use XSplit because it's so easy to use, but there are other options too. Match files are saved automatically to the PC's hard drive and can be opened immediately after the match ends.

Here's what I envision the process looking like -

1. Each alliance gets one challenge flag during the elimination tournament. The challenge must be issued within 2 minutes of the match ending. Once the match has been challenged, the head referee must watch the match / incident in question.

2. Head referee coordinates with the webcast PC volunteer and pulls up the locally recorded file of the last match. This would literally take a minute to do.

3. Head referee watches the video and based on the evidence shown makes a call to replay the match or let the match stand. Similar to the NFL, the video would need to show overwhelming evidence that the match should be replayed i.e. no close calls.

My opinion - if we want FRC to be represented as a truly competitive sport then we need to present it as most sports are presented. One great example of this is how E-sports have exploded over the past few years. The coverage of online gaming tournaments is incredible and is a model FRC should look to follow. For roughly $1000 in equipment, every event could implement a basic level of coverage that would up the home viewing experience ten fold. There's no reason this same setup couldn't be used for a basic level of video replay. Will it be like the NFL? Of course not. But it has to be better than what we have today - which is nothing. FIRST could easily include the kit I described to travel with the fields from event to event and include a tip sheet on how to set it up. Anyone that can hook up their Xbox to their TV could handle setting it up.

Saying we can't do this because 'it's hard' and 'would take too much effort' is a total cop out. This is FIRST, we're supposed to be doing incredible stuff right? What happened to trying to make it loud - or is that not a thing anymore?

Not spy bots. I have noticed it more with the low bar. Although I have seen it happen on other defenses as well. In one match I watched today (shame on me for not writing down the match or team numbers) one team opened the sallyport from tower side then second team drove over to door and held it while first team drove completely away second bot then drove part way into sallyport as not to let door close then first bot came in and both crossed one after another. Only one cross was given.
I am not saying things aren't going to be missed, and I am quite certain that if I were a ref I would also miss things. But I would make sure at a minimum that teams that cross in auto would absolutely get the points earned.
I see first hand how much time and effort gets put into not just the building of the robot, but the effort programming puts forth to improve and get various auto programs to work well. Again I expect things to be missed during teleop with so much going on, but in auto there isn't a single reason a cross should be missed.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Exactly. Combined with the fact that almost every event is streaming and therefore already has at least one camera constantly recording matches, many more for tons of events. If these recordings could be saved we'd have far fewer issues.

Reading through some earlier replies in this thread, I'm shocked about how many missed defense crosses are being reported. My opinion stands that one incorrect match is too many, but since there have been so many more, we've got to implement a system for review, preferably before the end of this season. However, I definitely understand why FIRST would be against changing rules midseason, but FIRST should make a strong attempt at implementing a video system for the 2017 season.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Ok, so I take it the number of "regularly-staffed ref positions" is the same between 2015 and 2016 (and my take away from your entire post is that it may have been the same even longer). The fact there is an "extra" ref to allow for breaks who can be pulled in for eliminations is a possibly recent addition that doesn't affect qualifications.

The point I'm inclined to make is that the issue of missed calls (as opposed to flat-out errors) clearly has a "difficulty of game" component to it. Perhaps not a 1:1 correlation, but a strong causation nonetheless. Taking this further, these kinds of situations are, I'd argue to a large degree, a result of the GDC game design, either in referee difficulty, or in failing to allocate more resources (refs/video) to compensate.

Our competition is this coming week, so I have no first-hand experience to base this on, yet... But I understand it can be difficult to find an extra referee, or a volunteer to sit and work video all day for several days. I also have the utmost respect for the referees, and all the volunteers, and the time they invest and volunteer to do what can be a thankless job.

I think, however, with this complicated a game, another set of eyes would have been a wise investment. Perhaps it would be easier to fill a "Video Replay Official" position rather than an additional referee.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Read my post again. In 2015, and 2014 Week 1, there were 5 refs on the field. One extra was on staff, for a full crew of 6 refs, and during playoffs there could be 6 on the field depending on the head ref. (2014 kept ramping up the ref count, though--went to 6 on-field later in the season, I was on a crew with 8 on-field at one point; CMP had 10 or so I hear.)

This year, there are 6 refs on field with one ref sitting out (ideally). There is an increase.

That's a possibility. Or it's a case of the refs having eyes away from the area of the missed call for some reason. As far as game design... There's one aspect of the game that SOMEBODY made a trivial mistake on that really makes life difficult for the refs; what that is is left as an exercise for the game viewer (with a hint to look at the defenses on the left side of your screen when you're watching the webcasts).

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Just a small note to add to all this, but in my experience, people are either mad (to some degree) at the GDC for a boring or broken game, or they're mad at the refs for not calling every perceived penalty.

If a game is exciting, a lot of times that means there is A LOT going on. Given that most of the time you're looking at a team of 4-6 refs + head ref, that's a lot to look at when refs have to do some amount of scoring, while also calling penalties. To make matters worse, those penalties aren't always in the same place. Penalties can occur behind the driver's station, right in front of you, over in the spy box, across the field, heck even after the match!

More to the point of this thread - yes video review is used extensively for all other sports for making the right calls. Think about it this way, the average football game would last according to google:

"An average professional football game lasts 3 hours and 12 minutes, but if you tally up the time when the ball is actually in play, the action amounts to a mere 11 minutes."

11 minutes of play turns into 3 hours and 12 minutes. I'm fairly certain that if we reviewed video every time someone had a complaint or saw something that they felt a ref missed, regionals would take upwards of a week. Or you'd get about 4 matches total out of the whole thing.

I'm not saying the system is perfect and to leave it alone, I'm just saying that instead of kicking and screaming about not getting your way, propose a reasonable solution. :)

side note to the line in the original post for the thread about ruining the chances of some very deserving students -- were the students on the opposing alliance not deserving? I think everyone is deserving, but please be GP!

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Taking 2-3 minutes of a ref's time during 7 minute field reset wont add any time.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I definitely agree that the other alliance was well-qualified, being the first seed, winning the third match without error, and bringing it to within single digits with the error accounted for. However, having lost in quarterfinals as a student plenty of times, it was easy to be GP and congratulate the winning alliance because we knew we had lost fair and square. I still believe the way that second match was judged was unfair, but ultimately as of that event the scoring dispute was handled exactly according to the rules: we sent student representatives to discuss the situation, Referees listened to all we had to say but couldn't overturn the call. The situation was played by the rules so I can't do anything to change what happened to my students.

What I can do is spread awareness of the problem and open up discussion about what the best way to solve it is. Specific implementation of a replay system will be tough to figure out, but as you said, every team is deserving. To me that means every team deserves as fair an evaluation as can be given to them, and an opportunity to advance based on those fair evaluations. A video system is one of the best ways I can see to ensure fair evaluation for this game.

Game design can make things easier, like how some years (ex: Ultimate Ascent, Recycle Rush, Logomotion) almost all scoring could be calculated based on the state of the field at the end of the match, notable exceptions being autonomous bonuses and penalties. This, however, is not such a year, so I see no other way to ensure games are always judged properly.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

You mean a 4:30 field reset. It's a 7-minute cycle (officially).

But, of course, the refs don't have anything else to do like monitor traffic onto and off of the field for safety, check robot starting positions, check ball starting positions, take a quick scan for frame perimeter violations and call teams out to fix position/perimeter issues, direct team members to the question box (or answer questions there, if you happen to be the Head Referee), grab a drink, help take care of problems with the field (or point staff to them), look up the rules from the last match's tough call, circle the zebra herd to finish discussing a call...



Honestly, I'd use the off-field referee, if available and at leisure. If it's confirmed to be a missed call, he/she advises the head ref of what was missed at the next available point in time and--here's the key thing--whether it would have changed the outcome of the match. Missing one crossing in a 60-point blowout? Sorry, folks, not makin' a difference. Missing a 20-second courtyard contact violation in a 2-point match? Yep, that one's going to be reviewed by the head ref for what the action is going to be.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Preach.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

So, your solution to the time delay is to add additional volunteers? With a potentially different interpretation of the rules, and who quite possibly did not see the event first-hand given that they were reviewing another match?

You're essentially adding another "key volunteer" position. Something that many events already struggle to fill.



So, the district system is over then? Because you're not going to find many high school gyms with the scaffolding/catwalk to support an overhead camera like that. Heck, I'd bet more than 50% of regionals would have to find new venues as well, as plenty of college gyms and convention centers wouldn't be able to support that.

I've watched plenty of videos. Mistakes will always be made, but mistakes are part of any sport. Not just FRC. Video replay is not a panacea to fix those officiating errors, which is my point. It's a lot of added cost and complexity, for minimal return. There's still plenty of opportunity for blown calls. Anyone who has followed the NHL this season, and its roll out of expanded video review, will attest to that. More people are complaining about the additional video review than any other officiating issue this season.

That "simple solution" isn't viable in the majority of FRC venues. That simple solution doesn't solve anything regarding interactions underneath bumpers. Specifically, that system cannot answer close calls in terms of CROSSINGS this year, because it cannot see underneath the frame/bumpers of a robot to know if its wheels fully cleared the defense.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I think you are not thinking about other factors which may influence the length of a football game. By no means is the 3:12 time due to review, but to timeouts, huddles, every 15 min of play a 30 min ish break... A regional would not lengthen if a field review took place between matches during a reset.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Say what you have to say and please turn down the passive aggressiveness. We all get that you disagree with video review but there is no reason to be snarky.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Im sorry, but this should be re-worded. Teams that lose good chunks of points and/or get eliminated through sometimes blatant missed calls is not "minimal return".

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Ryan had a good way of combating this about 4 posts before yours:

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I don't think video review would fix nearly as many of those cases as some people think they would.

And even if they did, it's minimal return. What happens on the field is such a small part of FIRST's mission. Don't take me wrong, I'm a huge fan of watching and participating in FRC events. But the outcome is not what matters. It really isn't.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The post I was responding to specifically said a solution like Ryan's was not what he was talking about. I brought up the Fisheye GoPro in my previous response. He had a specific request for an overhead camera like Orlando's.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I believe Ryan Dognaux explained a pretty low cost solution to this problem.

And all you seem to be doing right now is attempting to refute someone's position using examples of challenges to the idea. Challenges that can be worked through instead of pretending they're insurmountable. What's your alternative?

If your alternative is to pretend the problem doesn't exist, I have to disagree. Students getting turned off to a career in science and technology due to a referee's call isn't something we like to see in FIRST.

Personally, I would implement a hardware solution like the one described by Ryan and only allow for official challenges and video review in eliminations to start, with each alliance getting a "challenge" coupon of some sort.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

EricH beat me to exactly why this isn't as simple as you want to make it sound.

Refs don't just idly stand by while field reset is going on, much of the time they're running around like crazy doing 100 different things, or (heaven's forbid!) taking a half a moment to run to the bathroom so they don't delay matches :yikes:

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Any return is more than minimal. The students on these teams deserve the best experience possible and to take that away because we think it would be too hard is just plain ludicrous. There have been ways shown and logical ideas put forth to do this at minimal costs to regionals/districts. Even if this fixes only 1 event a year, that is more than enough to add this to events.

And this is an old argument on CD but the field results is a main part of FIRST's mission, thus why it is call FIRST Robotics Competition not FIRST Robotics Event.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The Head Ref is standing by for questions, arent they? How would this change that?

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

EDIT: OP was talking about our alliance did not even know


People who are insulting this guy need to stop.

We had a similar thing happen to us today.

We were 1st pick of Alliance 8 and extremely happy to get into the playoffs.

We went into our first match ready to go the alliance looked really good. We then won our first match Alliance 1 vs 8. We had some issues. To start we as an alliance crossing the ramparts 5 times before they finally got all of the lights off. Apparently there was a short with one of the leds. But, Match 2 is where stuff got bad. We had a decent match except for 2 big things. To start the refs missed a cheval de frise crossing which we verified happened by video causing a net loss of 25pts. They also did not foul an alliance after multiple extended pins and them trying to flip our alliance partner. After the match we went up to the question box to talk to the refs. They ackowleged they should have put heavier fouls on them and talked to the Field Supervisor I believe (Not certain on who exactly). His reply to the situation was "Cool, nothing I am going to do about it"......

We were outraged.

Third match we came out of the gates strong until defense hit. I forget the team # but essentially they tried to tip us twice along with our alliance partner twice. They had both of our robots at 45 degree angles 4 times throughout a match. They then hit our alliance partner while they were attempting to scale on the batter during the last 20 seconds causing their scaling mechanism to be misaligned and cost us the match. We lost our third QF match by 4 pts. One foul and we would have won along with the 10pts for the scale which we should have had.

Overall these "Misses" seem too obvious. We need Better Ref Training along with more refs.

Before anyone signs me up on vims know that I already inspect for FTC and plan on inspecting for FRC. I just became a Deans List finalist and I am going to volunteer at worlds. This is not a matter of me complaining just simply supporting the fact that stuff needs to change.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Even if we can't get the ideal view of the field, it doesn't mean there's no sense in trying to get as good a view as possible. Some things can be imperfect but still very much worth implementing due to great improvements (ie having refs that occasionally make mistakes as opposed to not having refs at all)


I'd argue that we aren't adding much complexity with cameras already set up for streaming, and I wouldn't call overturning matches minimal return. While the NHL has had problems, when the MLB introduced video review it undoubtedly improved the fairness of the game in a huge way despite not being called up nearly as much as other video review systems.



Some things are easier to call than others, and with a game like this no matter how many cameras you have there is bound to be a little ambiguity. However as I've said before, video evidence should only overturn calls if it indisputably proves the call incorrect as judged by referees reviewing the video. This may lead to a lot of improvements, and it may not, but I can definitely say that it can only help to give it a shot.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I'm going to leave it at this. Find me one example of a student who changed career paths because of a blown call in a FIRST match.

I'm willing to wager they don't exist. Because the real value of FIRST isn't what happens on the field. It's what happens in your shop, in your pits, at your outreach events, and at your meetings. The real value of FIRST is the time spent working with mentors and teammates. It's not a 135 second period of shooting a foam ball into a fake castle.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

You forgot about FIRST LEGO League and FIRST Tech Challenge. Neither of those mentions competition... or robotics...

FIRST is not just FRC. FIRST's mission is, in paraphrase, to inspire young people to pursue STEM careers through exciting mentor-based programs. (I'm too lazy to go look up the exact mission statement right now.)

Now the question becomes: Where does that inspiration come from? And what can deny it? I would argue that that comes from building a robot to compete. I won't deny that winning is fun, and losing is not, and more particularly losing because a ref misses a call isn't fun at all, but does that totally negate the inspiration of build season? (I can't answer that one. I'd even go so far as to say that it depends on the individual student(s) involved.)

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

This needs to be brought up also. More refs are going to be needed, no matter how this goes.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Head refs also need to take bathroom breaks, stay hydrated, sit down every once in a while. Sometimes the head refs have to review difficult calls with the other refs, discuss how something needs to be called, talk to various other volunteers (LRI, Scorekeeper, FTA) about field related issues, the list goes on.

I'm not trying to say that the refs are perfect, I'm just trying to say that the job is hard and instead of telling these volunteers that they have to be better, work with this amazing community to find a solution that can be implemented to make calls more consistent without adding unnecessary complexities

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Sorry if I come off as blunt but we are talking about FRC, not FLL or FTC. FIRST had the opportunity to call it FIRST Robotics Challenge back when they named it but they actively decided to call it a Competition. FIRST wanted to emphasize it as a main goal for the high school level. We may not think it inspires the current students, but I can for sure tell you that the regionals/districts/championship matches all inspire middle schoolers, elementary schoolers, college students, and parents. And if it affects them then the inspiration is diminished.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The competition is a vehicle to serve the ultimate goal. The competition itself is not the ultimate goal.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

But its not adding anything, those students would come up just the same as they do now; the only difference is instead of just telling the student "sorry it is what it is" they can go over to a computer/tv screen and actually take 30 seconds to see if their claim is valid or can be definitively shown the call was made correctly. I would wager a great sum of money every head ref would have no problem doing this.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

The OP was literally talking about your alliance.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Never said it was; but you are talking as if it means near nothing. Without the competition, FRC wouldnt be nearly as inspirational as it is. It isnt the ultimate goal, but it is a major part to the ultimate goal.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I would honestly wager the opposite. And the only reason I say this is because it is known that refs are not supposed to look at video evidence. If suddenly any student/team can come up and say "you called this wrong! Look!" then it will be happening after almost every match. Sometimes the students will be right, a call was missed, other times they'll be wrong because they didn't see it from a good angle, or they were mistaken about the rules.

I do like the solution that I saw somewhere in this thread stating that video evidence could be used on difficult calls in elims, but not in quals. That could be the first step forward to figuring out a system that can work, but it would still need unbiased video controlled by the field in some way.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

This is literally what this thread has been talking about since the beginning; we think it should be changed. And the student coming up after every match happens even now anyways.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I like what you are proposing a lot and I know exactly what you are referencing when it comes to e-sports as well.

I hope what everyone understands from what I was posting earlier in response to LL was just an idea. I do think that a key volunteer for this position should be created. I'm very adamant about that much.

As dodar has mentioned. I'm looking out for the kids, and not just mine.

This^

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

HAHA done....

I skimmed through a bit and saw he was from a different state. Thanks for telling me.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

In my experience students coming up after every single match does not "happen even now anyway". At least not until elims.

I'd be curious to see how many people who have volunteered as refs AND also previously been on a drive team would choose to solve this problem that everyone has. I say that because they have the perspective of having calls missed, and being in the position of seeing how it's possible that they can miss a call.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

tl;dr.

No. This is a bad idea. Ignoring the cost and logistical challenges (which are not trivial), the time consumed is far too high.

It is a game folks. Not everything is rainbows and unicorns, same as real life. It can as easily go against you as in your favor, so just let it be.

Side note: If you have never volunteered as a referee, you got nothing to say.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

It isn't ANY part of the ultimate goal (culture change). It's a method to achieve that culture change. But the change in culture is not to increase emphasis on robotics competitions. The very first thing you see when you land on FIRST's homepage is "More Than Robots." The change in culture is aimed at "creating a world where science and technology are celebrated and where young people dream of becoming science and technology leaders." Nowhere in that vision statement does it mention a competition.

The competition is important, and getting calls right is important. However, I simply do not think video review really improves anything. It only helps correct a relatively small subset of calls, at the cost of additional equipment, additional volunteers, and/or additional event length. For every hypothetical about teams left uninspired at the hands of blown calls, I can point out actual teams that left before an award ceremony because the event was running longer than they had planned to stay. And even after video review, there will still be plenty of calls that cannot be corrected (think of how many "unreviewable plays" you see during a football game), or that evidence is not there to support a change in the call. In the end, I think you'll have just as many people left unsatisfied with officiating after video review as before, and you have to look no further than professional sports as evidence of that.

The competition itself is always going to drive competitors to be upset about officiating. Emotions run high, and people will naturally take the viewpoint that favors their interests. I have calls I still remember from my participation in FRC. Even with video review, that's not going to change. However, video review is certain to open all sort of new fiascos that aren't available now. Suddenly, there's incentive for teams to have their own video review staff in the stands (just like in pro sports), which creates another source of inequity between teams. The procedures for video review cannot simply be spending 30 seconds watching video, in particular if the basis of the review centers around scoring errors. By definition, for scoring errors, you almost always have to watch the duration of the match to ensure the error wasn't corrected later (anyone who's ever watched the "real time scoring" knows what I'm talking about there). Further still, does the ref simply have to review the single portion of the scoring being challenged, or rescore the ENTIRE match? What level of detail does the team have to provide in order to focus the ref's efforts?

There's a huge slate of issues here, and people are whitewashing them away. I'm quite confident that video review would introduce more inequity and issues than it would correct.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

That's not true. Anyone can provide input. A similar thing can be said that the referees and GDC are not taking our input because they have never lost 2 matches in a row with a game changing alliance including 2 below 40 teams against first seed. They don't know how huge of a hit that was on all of our alliance members.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

You realize that a growing number of volunteers used to be on FIRST teams when they were in high school?

I was on a team before, now I volunteer. I argue many of my points because I've been on both sides of the driver station wall.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

And why not? Are students and other mentors/volunteers opinions worthless to you? Are they below a "Refs" saying?

Im not saying that they will be correct, but that doesnt mean that they should be ignored. Explain, and help them understand.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Yep. Not the driver station wall, but when play that would have passed on one field as good is an alliance DQ with a disable on another, and you're in the audience... Ouch.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Agreed. I may be slightly biased as I was on the team they picked but, that quoted statement (not yours) is invalid.

I am 16 and all of our drivers/hps/ect are also under 18. There was only 1 adult coach on our alliance.

But we know the rules well arguably better then some refs. We are personally very invested as well. This is the first time our team has gotten into playoffs at an event since 2012. 2013,2014,and 2015 were extreme failures. This year we knew we had some sort of chance so we studied the rules well. Everyone on our team took a 13 page test and had to pass. I have gotten to the point where I can read fouls off my their prefix and, overall I knew the rules and so did our alliance partners.

I volunteer when I can but I can not volunteer as a ref yet so why say that sort of stuff. It is extremely petty.

I will probably leave this thread in fears of it getting too heated and I know now its a small conflict of interest.

I entered alliance selections not thinking we were going to be picked and was extremely happy to be an alliances first pick. I won DL and our mentor won WFFA I can not ask for much more. Coming from a team that has not won an award since 2009. Time to hang up our first blue banner.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I would like to volunteer, as I had planned to this year, however as my son is on a rookie team I was needed far more there than the local regional.

I would just like to say, even though emotions and feelings may be running high here, everyone, I believe, wants the same goal. A positive, inspiring, experience for the students/teams, as well as the volunteers. I'm sure refs aren't thrilled to have to handle (or not) "missed" calls throughout a competition. Be it better training, more refs, video replay, better game design, or some combination thereof, we all seem to be trying to achieve a common goal of better officiating, and a better experience for everyone involved.

At the end of the day, let's remember, these are students we're trying to inspire, and volunteers who give their time and energy freely. We owe it to them to respect that, and to respect each other.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I just want to say that ref training this year was FAR improved from previous years. It was also far less forgiving!

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

Ouch, yes. I concur. And the on-the-job part (y'all call it practice day) is pretty tough too.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I haven't read this entire thread so I apologize if it was already brought up, but which offseason event will be piloting a replay system? The best way to convince FIRST to make this change would be to do it and show them it works and is practical.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

This I agree with 100%

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I am going to break my own rule and post here again agreeing.

It is too late for a replay system this year. There could be a couple of better practices in place but I doubt it.

This is probably a thing for the big offseason events (IE Chezy Champs, Battlecry, and IRI) but we will create a system if anyone wants it.

We ran the livestream for the HHH invitational last year (A small local offseason in Long island) and would be willing to help implement a similar system if it was wanted.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

This is simply false. Go back and actually read my post. If you want I will gladly post a BOM breakdown of St. Louis FIRST's setup to refute the cost claim.

As far as the claim that 'it will eat up too much time' - in my opinion, above all else, the team experience needs to be the emphasis of the event. I think this is something that is forgotten by some FRC volunteers who have been doing this for decades. It's not about 'keeping the event on schedule' to the exact minute - honestly who cares if we run 15 minutes late? These students have spent countless hours, teams are spending thousands of dollars. I think the least we can do is consider this to improve event quality.

Providing the head referee another tool to make the team experience better and improve the quality of calls at the cost of 15 additional minutes (if EVERY alliance challenged a call in this theoretical scenario) is a no brainer to me.

The argument that 'stuff happens / teams need to suck it up and move on' is weak. It's another excuse to not improve the consistency of calls at events. The solution I'm suggesting gives the head referee another tool to make the correct call - which I think they are always trying to do. The head referee job is really hard. Why wouldn't we want to help them out and give them an option?

I volunteer the Gateway Robotics Challenge on October 1st.

Re: Video Review Needs to Happen Now
 

I'll design, setup, and man a replay solution of my own design at SCRIW here in South Carolina.

Just in case you didn't know. SCRIW is played in a high school gym. Much like district events across the country are.