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-   -   Your tall opaque robot is now illegal (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146094)

pwnageNick 22-03-2016 22:23
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Aside from effecting mechanisms, defensive robots, cheesecake, etc.

At a grander level this makes shorter robots whose cameras could possibly be obstructed a little more valuable and tall robots with cameras unblockable a little less valuable.

The tall teams that made the strategic tradeoff in the beginning of the season probably aren't super happy right now..

IronicDeadBird 22-03-2016 22:24
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
This all cuts both ways right? Like if we had a tall robot and we drove in front of our team mate just on the field at any point in time would we be flagged?

EmileH 22-03-2016 22:47
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1561536)
Our robot uses echolocation to navigate I ask that NOBODY MAKE ANY NOISE otherwise we will fault you for disrupting our sensor abilities. Sorry you had 6 weeks to design with the fact that our team was going to use Echolocation its not my fault you didn't make a silent robot...
Don't forget about the audience, especially if you plan on having a good robot.

JohnFogarty 22-03-2016 23:31
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1561524)
Any robot made of matter exerts gravitational pull that messes with my accelerometer, and is therefore illegal.

(There, I think I've taken the pedantry to its logical conclusion)
Your robot's motors generate a magnetic field that messes with our robot's magnetometer. ILLEGAL!!!!กกกก

efoote868 22-03-2016 23:39
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Q: "We want to modify our robot with a component specifically intended to do something outlawed by the rules. Is that against the rules?"

A: "Yes, a component intended to break the rules is against the rules"

CD: RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!


While I hate rules based on intent, the answer to the question should not shock anyone. If the purpose of the component on your robot is to do pretty much anything other than interfere with the drivers or sensors of another robot, it is permitted by rule 9. The fact that it might interfere doesn't matter.

waialua359 23-03-2016 03:13
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1561439)
Exactly. I have never seen a head ref call a G7-A on his own. If a robot has passed inspection, the head ref has to assume it's legal according to the robot rules. Believe it or not, most head refs don't know the robot rules all that well! Once a robot has passed inspection, the most I've seen a head ref do is ask the LRI to take another look at something specific.
Jon,
we were told by the refs at the Lake Superior event during the semifinals to secure our bumper a little higher on one of the corners of the robot because they said it was too low (sagging). We were told to fix it or sit out. I didnt have a tape measure on me, but we used a wood screw drilled through our frame to secure it temporarily until our final matches were over. Yet, we passed inspection.......twice.

Tom Line 23-03-2016 03:18
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1561649)
Jon,
we were told by the refs at the Lake Superior event during the semifinals to secure our bumper a little higher on one of the corners of the robot because they said it was too low (sagging). We were told to fix it or sit out. I didnt have a tape measure on me, but we used a wood screw drilled through our frame to secure it temporarily until our final matches were over. Yet, we passed inspection.......twice.
HA!

We've been bitten by the over-zealous bumper ref as well. A couple years (2011) ago after our team put the robot on the field, a ref thought our bumpers were too low. We grabbed a tape measure to prove we were good, but they pulled out a wooden template. They slid the template under the bumper and it went with no problem, but because it touched a fold in the fabric we were forced to raise our bumpers 1/4". We had passed inspection 5 times. 4 district inspections and 1 at the start of states.

waialua359 23-03-2016 03:18
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1561433)
I fail to see how an LRI can ever overrule the Head Referee on a G7-A decision. I am not arguing that the Head Referee is correct. Head Referees make incorrect interpretations of rules all the time, unfortunately. It's part of being human. Once the Head Referee determines that G7-A is violated, it is their discretion and their discretion alone (per 5.5.3) to make the decision to disable a robot, regardless of if the rule was actually violated. It is in the ARENA, it is under Head Ref jurisdiction. Period.

The Head Ref could see a blocker, make an independent decision without consulting the LRI that it violates R9, disable a robot, have the team come up to the question box afterwards, and refuse to replay the match, even if the LRI says it was legal and passed inspection. It's their prerogative.

I'm not saying it will ever go to that extreme. But per the rules, it could happen, and crazier rulings have happened on shakier ground in the past.
Well said Evan.

rich2202 23-03-2016 07:26
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1561649)
Jon,
we were told by the refs at the Lake Superior event during the semifinals to secure our bumper a little higher on one of the corners of the robot because they said it was too low (sagging). We were told to fix it or sit out. I didnt have a tape measure on me, but we used a wood screw drilled through our frame to secure it temporarily until our final matches were over. Yet, we passed inspection.......twice.
That is a g19-1 rule which is given to refs. g19-1 is intended to be more independent of the ri's than g7-a, hence the separate, but overlapping rule.

That said, sagging fabric is more forgivable (tell them to fix before next time you are on the field) than the entire bumper sagging (which implies an attachment may have a problem).

PayneTrain 23-03-2016 07:29
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1561650)
HA!

We've been bitten by the over-zealous bumper ref as well. A couple years (2011) ago after our team put the robot on the field, a ref thought our bumpers were too low. We grabbed a tape measure to prove we were good, but they pulled out a wooden template. They slid the template under the bumper and it went with no problem, but because it touched a fold in the fabric we were forced to raise our bumpers 1/4". We had passed inspection 5 times. 4 district inspections and 1 at the start of states.
Sounds like that person is great at parties

Jon Stratis 23-03-2016 07:56
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1561649)
Jon,
we were told by the refs at the Lake Superior event during the semifinals to secure our bumper a little higher on one of the corners of the robot because they said it was too low (sagging). We were told to fix it or sit out. I didnt have a tape measure on me, but we used a wood screw drilled through our frame to secure it temporarily until our final matches were over. Yet, we passed inspection.......twice.
Yes, that would be G19-1... Something the refs (in my experience, at least) are finally calling a little more strictly than they have in past years. With the high shock loads robots are taking from crossing defenses, it's really no surprise that things may come loose after a while. In that case, even after having passed inspection it's possible for items like bumpers or starting configuration (G7-D) to get a little out of whack. I have seen head refs call G19-1 and G7-D on their own before, usually with good reason.

But those two rules are distinctly separate from G7-A and this concern that a head ref would overrule an LRI on the specific legality of a robot mechanism.

marshall 23-03-2016 08:39
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1561689)
Sounds like that person is great at parties
I know measuring bumpers is a favorite party game for me. :cool:

FrankJ 23-03-2016 08:47
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis (Post 1561693)
But those two rules are distinctly separate from G7-A and this concern that a head ref would overrule an LRI on the specific legality of a robot mechanism.
The FTA, LRI, & head Referee have some overlap in there duties. One hopes that they will act like grown ups in their interactions. My experience is that they generally do. Section 5.5.2 gives the LRI final authority on robot components. Section 5.5.3 gives the head referee final authority in the arena including what is allowed in the arena. So even if the head referee was wrong, section 5.5.3 would apply giving the referee final authority in the arena. Somebody has to be King.

FrankJ 23-03-2016 08:59
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Follow up Q&A on this
Quote:
Please clarify Q953 - If a robot meets the sizing requirements for R3 and does not have any markings that are similar to the field (i.e. markings meant to mimic vision targets) does it violate R9-C? If so, could you please expand on the criteria for what violates R9-C? For example: does translucent plastic sheeting or bumper noodles at the maximum height that was added between Qualifications and Eliminations that to a reasonable observer is for the purposes of blocking shots violate R9-C?
FRC1410 on 2016-03-22 | 2 Followers
A. A device which is not specifically intended to interfere with the remote sensing capabilities of another ROBOT, but merely happens to be in the way of that ROBOT sensing a desired object, while intended for other functions(such as blocking shots), would not be a violation of R9-C.
Darn it would been a lot easier making shots without a robot in the way of my low mounted camera. :]

BTW I am pretty sure you can't use Lexan your bumpers, which this thread was originally abouts.

Ryan Dognaux 23-03-2016 09:05
Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Line (Post 1561650)
We grabbed a tape measure to prove we were good, but they pulled out a wooden template. They slid the template under the bumper and it went with no problem, but because it touched a fold in the fabric we were forced to raise our bumpers 1/4". We had passed inspection 5 times. 4 district inspections and 1 at the start of states.
That's just sad. Some referees need to lighten up and keep the team experience in mind instead of seeking out ways to rule them illegal.


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