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-   -   Your tall opaque robot is now illegal (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146094)

Libby K 23-03-2016 09:10

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryan Dognaux (Post 1561727)
That's just sad. Some referees need to lighten up and keep the team experience in mind instead of seeking out ways to rule them illegal.

I'd like to change this to 'Volunteers' and blow it up to mega-poster-size, required to be hung up in all accessible areas of every event venue, ever. While 99.9% of the volunteers at a given event are diligent with their jobs and gracious about it - one bad apple can spoil a kid's whole experience.

FrankJ 23-03-2016 09:25

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1561730)
I'd like to change this to 'Volunteers' and blow it up to mega-poster-size, required to be hung up in all accessible areas of every event venue, ever. While 99.9% of the volunteers at a given event are diligent with their jobs and gracious about it - one bad apple can spoil a kid's whole experience.

While I agree with the sentiment, that would be a good way to alienate the 99.9% that get it.

Chris is me 23-03-2016 09:34

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FrankJ (Post 1561739)
While I agree with the sentiment, that would be a good way to alienate the 99.9% that get it.

If "keep the team experience in mind and make sure what you're doing is ultimately about making sure teams have the best experience possible" alienates a "good" volunteer, then I honestly don't think they were that great in the first place. We're here for them. If we're doing this for other reasons, we're doing it for the wrong ones.

Libby K 23-03-2016 09:43

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1561746)
If "keep the team experience in mind and make sure what you're doing is ultimately about making sure teams have the best experience possible" alienates a "good" volunteer, then I honestly don't think they were that great in the first place. We're here for them. If we're doing this for other reasons, we're doing it for the wrong ones.

Yep - I didn't mean to say we should keep the 'this is sad... lighten up' language, but the 'you're here for them' bit.

Not enough coffee yet, I suppose. :]

This is something I try to stress at every morning-meeting when I'm volunteer coordinating (or in some way managing an event - for 1923's hosted tournaments, I've got about 19 hats to wear). Think about how well Disney Cast Members are trained to make sure everyone 'has a magical day', and think about the last time someone gave YOU good customer service... now turn around and deliver the same to these kids.

FrankJ 23-03-2016 09:50

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Libby K (Post 1561755)
This is something I try to stress at every morning-meeting when I'm volunteer coordinating (or in some way managing an event - for 1923's hosted tournaments, I've got about 19 hats to wear). Think about how well Disney Cast Members are trained to make sure everyone 'has a magical day', and think about the last time someone gave YOU good customer service... now turn around and deliver the same to these kids.


Now that I can get behind. It always best to express these things in a positive way. BTW Head Referee and Volunteer Coordinator are the 2 jobs that need the best people and are certainly the most difficult. I am not sure I would do either for love or money. ;)

mman1506 23-03-2016 10:23

Q955 has just been posted clarifying rule Q953 https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org//Qu...t-violate-r9-c

Zebra_Fact_Man 23-03-2016 10:30

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mman1506 (Post 1561778)
Q955 has just been posted clarifying rule Q953 https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org//Qu...t-violate-r9-c

Thank you FRC 1410 and GDC for rectifying this potentially game changing defensive exodus!

Defense Apocalypse Cancelled

MichaelHaughney 23-03-2016 10:41

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
So by the logic that a robot "specifically designed or intended to interfere with another ROBOT'S sensing capabilities" is a violation of R9, what is to say that because we use a IMU, any robot that bumps us is also in violation of R9?

efoote868 23-03-2016 10:47

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelHaughney (Post 1561785)
So by the logic that a robot "specifically designed or intended to interfere with another ROBOT'S sensing capabilities" is a violation of R9, what is to say that because we use a IMU, any robot that bumps us is also in violation of R9?

The other robots are designed to play stronghold, not specifically disrupt your sensor. The fact that they can disrupt your sensor through normal game play does not put them in violation of R9.

If they had put an unbalanced spinning mass with the exclusive intent to vibrate the field to disrupt your IMU, that would be a violation of R9.

aldaeron 23-03-2016 12:27

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
I have submitted another follow up to (hopefully) clear up any R9-A violations or other issues with defensive add-ons of all kinds (and cake varieties). Should have been a little more thorough in the first Q&A.

-matto-

Edit: General advice to teams is to make sure that the team members talking to inspectors and referees are very clear and consistent in the messaging that any tall parts of the robot (whether added on during competition or not) are for blocking shots only. The fact that some teams chose to build low robots that cannot see or shoot or aim is inconsequential. On the note of visibility and R9-A, the GDC has been clear that lack of visibility was intentional (Team Update 16 says "Limited visibility for drivers was one of the intended challenges with this game ..."). Teams that chose to spend their time and resources improving their visibility can gain an advantage if they thought the problem through carefully and made good design choices.

Lil' Lavery 23-03-2016 12:30

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
What's the record for the longest Q&A chain? Can this break it?

aldaeron 23-03-2016 12:43

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1561850)
What's the record for the longest Q&A chain? Can this break it?

I can still hear you saying you would never break the chain

Michael Corsetto 23-03-2016 13:15

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aldaeron (Post 1561847)
I have submitted another follow up to (hopefully) clear up any R9-A violations or other issues with defensive add-ons of all kinds (and cake varieties). Should have been a little more thorough in the first Q&A.

Thank you for submitting this follow up. Looking forward to the GDC's response, considering the Head Ref's interpretation of R9-A at CVR.

-Mike

rsisk 23-03-2016 13:30

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Here is Q955 for FYI...

This was also a discussion on our LRI call last night and there was a reasonable solution to cover us until Q955 answer came out.

Q955
FRC Q&A Answered Questions
Q: Please clarify Q953 - If a robot meets the sizing requirements for R3 and does not have any markings that are similar to the field (i.e. markings meant to mimic vision targets) does it violate R9-C? If so, could you please expand on the criteria for what violates R9-C? For example: does translucent plastic sheeting or bumper noodles at the maximum height that was added between Qualifications and Eliminations that to a reasonable observer is for the purposes of blocking shots violate R9-C?

A: A device which is not specifically intended to interfere with the remote sensing capabilities of another ROBOT, but merely happens to be in the way of that ROBOT sensing a desired object, while intended for other functions(such as blocking shots), would not be a violation of R9-C.

(Asked by FRC1410 on 2016-03-22.)

bachster 23-03-2016 13:34

Re: Your tall opaque robot is now illegal
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by waialua359 (Post 1561649)
Jon,
we were told by the refs at the Lake Superior event during the semifinals to secure our bumper a little higher on one of the corners of the robot because they said it was too low (sagging). We were told to fix it or sit out. I didnt have a tape measure on me, but we used a wood screw drilled through our frame to secure it temporarily until our final matches were over. Yet, we passed inspection.......twice.

Hi Glenn,

I'm not sure if the Head Ref was involved prior, but from what I witnessed (I forget which round), a field-side RI noticed that 359's bumpers had zip-ties around the bumpers and notified the LRI. The LRI checked the robot on the field and had the drive team remove the zip-ties since these aren't considered a rigid fastening system and aren't part of the legal bumper cross-section. I was on the field next to your robot when the zip-ties were removed and it was clear that the front corners were not very rigidly attached. I'm not familiar with your bumper fastening system, but it seemed like something must have broken or loosened during a previous match and the zip ties were added as a temporary fix. The LRI allowed 359 to play that match and required that the bumpers be more rigidly attached for the next match, which is when you added the wood screws. Maybe during that same match the Head Ref also noticed them sagging and also gave you a "warning," or maybe the Head Ref had noticed them sagging after the fastening system loosened and that's what prompted the zip ties, but either way, this does seem like an appropriate application of G19-1 (and as far as I know, you weren't fouled or disabled, just asked to fix it for the next match).


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