Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Color me blind, then. I don't see the Minnesota document accusing anyone of not being mature. They both set the expectation of maturity. The Guam one just surrounds it with many more words, and softens it by saying "often over several years" rather than "will take at least several years".

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

It says in the document that key volunteer spots require maturity, etc. Saying this while being presented to college alumni literally implies they are not that. At least that is definitely how it reads.

Agree to disagree I guess if you don't see that.

I would direct quote here but am stuck on my phone ATM.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Not true, District teams can still go to traditional regional and qualify. No need to go to the DCMP.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

District teams are required to register (and pay) for their district events. In most cases, their local regional no longer exists, so travelling to an additional regional will cost more money and more travel time. While it's hypothetically possible that a district team could "no show" at both of their district events and only compete at an external regional and then CMP, I find that situation highly unlikely. So, either way you cut it, you're still talking about three pre-CMP events as opposed to one.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

That's just it though, the Guam one uses rhetoric to make the program sound like a friendly place where they will be more than willing to help you. While I'm sure that the MN program should be willing to do the same thing, the way that the document is written comes across to a younger audience as command laden and aggressive. Granted, college students take most things as "aggressive", but that's a different topic :rolleyes:

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Yeah, some teams tend to do that. Teams like 27, 217, etc. usually attend a regional then attend their district events. 900 even did that this year.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

In Ontario the large majority of key volunteers (FTA, LRI, Head Ref) are either a college students or have recently entered the workforce. These folks are some of the best volunteers I have ever encountered in all of FRC. I was just at the UMass-Dartmouth district event where I was blown away by the energy and skill displayed by the young volunteers working the event. In addition, I'm responsible for recruiting our key volunteers for VEX Worlds. 39 of our 73 key volunteers (MC/Announcers, Field Techs, Head Refs) are FRC alums in university or have recently entered the workforce. FRC alumni are a passionate and dedicated group who can most easily relate to the pressures that students go through in this program; I have a hard time seeing why anyone wouldn't want to channel the energy and talent these young people bring and use it to sustain and grow their local events.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Ok, lemme give it a shot.

The first one comes off as informative, insightful, and helpful. People like help. People ask for help.
The second one comes off as authoritarian and demanding. Do this!!! People instinctively don't like being told what to do. That's why so many people are driven to start their own companies, or change jobs; because their boss is a micromanager/control-freak, and/or so they are their own boss (fun fact: the consumer is your boss).
The last few words might be the same, but it's how they start the sentence that gets you.

Again, the first one is a simple and SHORT reminder; be aware. Even in bullet-point form to keep it short! Because it's not the main point.
The second one is nestled into a paragraph, and uses the phrases "everything you do reflects on FIRST", and "Tweets, posts, or blogs can easily cause issues for volunteers". Jeez, no pressure or anything. Why would you even say that second part!?!?!

As you may have noticed from my other posts, there are MUCH worse passages that highlight the subtle differences between the two documents. You might be thinking, "That's not fair. This is so subtle." Just think how subtle the human brain works; the difference between charming and creepy can LITERALLY be a pause or two between words.

-Mother was a salesman for many decades (from cars, to kitchen remodeling, to plumbing, to radio advertising, to mortgages), so maybe I have an inherited ability to notice undertones that might #trigger! other people.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Since some people are wary of new accounts, I can confirm Pratheeksha's (pmallikarjun's) identity. Hopefully that removes any doubts you may have.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Alan, I hate to play the age card but I genuinely think it could be that. I'm bothered by the MN FIRST document. It, overall, felt off-putting. I can't point to specific lines or phrases but it gave off a vibe of being unwanted. I know folks like Bailey reacted more negatively to it than I did.

Given the target audience of this document [1] I would definitely consider revising this document based on the feedback from young volunteers/potential volunteers. While you and Al might not see anything wrong with it the sample target audience in this thread has found it mildly distasteful. If my goal is to encourage/educate young volunteers [2] I'm going to want to revise it based on this feedback.

I'm not saying you're wrong or that the language in the MNFIRST doc is bad or that the GuamFIRST doc is perfect. I'm saying that one appears to be offensive to the target audience while the other one is less offensive to that audience.




[1] I'm assuming honesty and that the target audience is alumni volunteers in MN.

[2] It should be.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

The document was emailed to me and another leader on Bison Robotics last year, I believe right around the time (possibly before) the presentation was given to GOFIRST. Feedback on the document was requested and provided, and the document was shown to members of Bison Robotics by myself.

Most of the points that the document makes are common sense. So in my presentation to Bison Robotics, I essentially ran through it and told people to use their common sense. Surprisingly, college kids do have some of that. We have had no issues volunteering in Minnesota.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Is this how we want our alum to feel? Is this appropriate? Is this FIRST?



This was posted on twitter as a response to this thread.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Lol; old man, you don't understand the young peoples!!!!!!

Can and did. Individual passages are very noticeable.

I am. It is a very poorly worded document. I wonder if they even ran it past a couple of college aged students to see what they thought about it. You know, like beta-testing.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I think what we are hearing about in these conversations is common in 'district holes' throughout the world - regions where they said there would be districts right now. The following applies to areas like Minnesota, Ohio/Western PA/WV, Texas, and Northern California and Southern California.

I think what it comes down to is the area leadership. The leadership hears frequently from HQ and other districts about the requirements to move to a region to a district, but what we don't hear about publicly are the road maps and decisive plans to get there. Yes acquiring the memorandum of understanding is a big landmark, but what about the rest of the steps. Moving a region is a massive undertaking, but there is a model to it now. Early districts lead the way and now I think there are clear operating steps to getting other locations online.

I've been to MN events, NJ districts and MI districts as well as various others throughout the US. The enthusiasm is there, I just believe that some people that sit at the district table for a region raise concerns louder than other people (squeaky wheels gets the grease).

More robots are happening. I think not everyone is asking how they can help make that possible, rather than if it is possible.

To all those voices that are asking these questions about how they can help transition their area? HOST AN OFF SEASON. Its a critical step to introducing the local flavor of events. If you build it they will come. You will gain a seat at the tables that have the authority to move a region to districts. You will better understand the situation and challenges. You will make it happen. Get in touch with AndyMark, the venue, everything around you. It will fall into place, you get to control the destiny, if you act quickly I bet you can pull an event off before schools out for the summer. What is stopping you?

In 2005, a couple of high school students joked around and said we should host an off season event at our school. Then we thought we should make it real. 12 months later the first Monty Madness appeared. After years of putting off taking the plunge to hosting an actual district event, the first official event is week 6. Looking back, it was a pivotal local event in spreading the district model, its where volunteers got trained, teams gained experienced, district meetings were had and robots happened.

Facilitate it.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

So much this.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I think the intention of speaker was initially to beta-test the document at the GOFIRST meeting. However, the speaker had presented to the group at meetings in the past and was familiar with the fact that many of the students in attendance at these meetings are not FIRST alumni. When this document was delivered, I think the attendees of the meeting were very surprised, because the content of the meeting was not what they had been told it would be. I think if GOFIRST had been asked to create a focus group for reviewing this document, rather than having it sprung upon the group at a meeting for a different purpose, the feedback from college students could have been given before the document was distributed to UMN students who had never volunteered and in some cases didn't even know what FIRST was. Since this wasn't done, students who had never volunteered before received a document that probably made them uncomfortable and therefore now are probably even more hesitant to volunteer than they were before.

As always, my comments are my own opinion and do not reflect the opinions of any of the groups I'm associated with.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

This is 100% ridiculous.. Alumni in college are some of the most hardworking and understanding of the FIRST program.
"Rare " are not college students that hold roles such as:
over 6 FTA's in Michigan
over 20 Robot Inspectors in CA
over 3 regional committee members in Southern California
over 20 senior mentors being college aged
over 20 referees
More things like MC's, Game announcers, ect are also widely filled by college students. These numbers are just specific to the location I mentioned, these positions for college students are present nearly everywhere (except Minnesota). College students do well in this situation since they are the MOST passionate, understand the teams, and know the program. Alumni give back by volunteering since a lot do not have the time or resources to mentor.

I'm 2 years out of high school, I have filled nearly every key volunteer role you can imagine.
So many of my colleagues in FIRST CA that hold key roles are young college students, and that's because our state as a whole realizes that this generation is preparing to take over FIRST and we are utilizing them as volunteers that have experience inside teams.
The problem is that a lot of people play the "older age" card as a "maturity" card. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Would it help move the discussion onto more productive grounds if people knew this doc was killed over a year ago, and only distributed once? Seriously, everything about the doc is litterally :deadhorse:

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Why did it get killed? I don't see any problem with it.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Evan,
Are you saying this person is reacting to my post(s)? It is never my intention to trigger that response from a student or former student. You know me, you know I would not do that. The post you quoted is simply a lift from a previous post showing the similarity of two documents that are being compared.

Pauline,
I said it was rare but not that it never occurred. There are many former students, college age and others who fill these roles with distinction. I, for one, am quite happy to see former students make the transition to better volunteer roles. I worked with several over the weekend in Australia who are on the right track for the roles they wish to fill. I agree that age and maturity are not the same.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Why was it killed?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

To be honest, the issues seen in this thread are issues being seen across the entire world. The old guard establishment is too ingrained in their ways, and have had a very difficult time acting likes its 2016 instead of the 90's or even early. I see this first hand at large old tech companies, where everyone that makes the decisions has been at the company for 20+ years, and are so out of touch in an ever advancing world. Companies like Intel and Microsoft do massive layoffs (mostly of the younger crowd who work in the testing departments), and then wonder why their products keep getting worse and worse and they can't sell them. Companies like Google and Facebook are able to work around this as they have the young engineers and executives making the decisions, which allows them to adapt. You can see this same trend in the current presidential elections as well. Young people are so sick and tired of the establishment not caring about the future of our people that even though the candidates outside of the establishment are crazy they are still getting tons of votes, as the young population has seen that the current situation is not working out.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Al,

That was not directed at your post but the strictness of the policy. The person I quoted from twitter has been involved in MN FIRST FRC volunteering for many years. If they are that afraid of making any sort of post or comment, what does that say about our community?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

First I have a question. Did MN FIRST come out and officially say they want to pursue districts save for a lack of volunteers and/or other resources, or something to that effect? I'm really interested in that aside form any controversy.

Next a piece of advise to the GOFIRST members. As a 19y/o collage student the letter it self doesn't put me off, and if say GA FIRST put it out tomorrow it wouldn't matter much. I think your real grievance lies with what's happened around the letter and you should focus on that more as it will serve your case better. The letter and different peoples reaction to it dose point something out to me though.

They might not understand you but you probably don't understand them either. They probably didn't write that to scare you off or put you down. But you have to understand that they aren't you and won't read it like you. I didn't read it like you so why would you think they know how you feel reading it? It is most likely a way to explain why you didn't and often won't necessarily get the job you prefer and a way to let you know it usually takes a while to work up to a lead position. So even if it fails to acknowledge that there can be exceptions to this norm that doesn't mean there won't be in practice. But they probably didn't know you would have wanted the letter to acknowledge the possibility of moving up faster because they aren't you.

The point is if in practice they are in fact denying positions to qualified persons or using social media unfairly than focus on that. The letter could be written a nicely as you want or as offensively as you fear and it won't affect your situation. And finally try to understand them as much as you wish they understood you.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I'm going to go ahead and answer the original question: How do I help my area move to districts?

First, a few disclaimers: I am from Minnesota. I am not on the RPC, though I was on it for a year and know all of the members. I am a key volunteer, and I graduated college relatively recently (that is, I'm not an old man shooing rascally kids off my lawn).

Here are some real issues that need to be solved to move a region to districts:

• Where are these events happening? I don't mean give me the names of the small handful of school who currently host offseason events. For Minnesota, we need at least two locations every week plus one for the district championships.
• Someone needs to contact those locations. You need to be willing to drive to those locations and speak with representatives from the venue regarding contracts, timing, and logistics. Keep in mind that Minnesota is a large state and the proposed district spans the entire state.
• At this point, probably go back to step one because a few of your original venues were taken off the list because they are unavailable when you need them.
• Find funding for these events. Someone will need to go and speak to potential donors. Believe me, this will take a lot of potential donors. These donors also need to respect you and the organization (FIRST) that you represent.
• Find volunteers. Let's assume for a second that Minnesota has enough volunteers total such that each volunteer works two events (because that horse has been overbeaten more times than I care to count). Now you need to coordinate getting the right volunteers for 13 events (up from 4). They need to be relatively local to the area and/or willing to travel for the event. Your VC for each event should probably know these volunteers by name and a good VC will also have the same qualities as a good manager- they know where you want to be in 5 years and are working with you to get there. A VC isn't a once-a-year or maybe-I'll-try-this-out position.
• Coordinate the A/V aspect of the events. Who is webcasting each event? Who is running the sound board and projector? Do you have the equipment to do that? If not, go back to the fundraising step and then go through the process of acquiring equipment
• Find a place that can store your field(s). For Minnesota, this is a number greater than or equal to 2.
• Find people to maintain your field. It needs to be cleaned at least yearly, and things like road crates frequently need repair.
• Go back to fundraising because you also need to purchase fields.
• Figure out how to transport the field(s) to the events. The location Minnesota's field currently lives at between events doesn't allow anyone in under 18 and is only open during the workday M-F. The 2016 field also requires either two regular moving trucks or one semi, either requiring two drivers or someone with a Class A license (x13)

Those are the tasks I came up with in a few minutes of thinking, and I know there are a million more. Don't forget that the people we are currently asking to do these things are also currently responsible for 208 Minnesota teams and 4 regional events that need to continue running during the transition.

As much as I hate to say it, I don't think most college students would be good fits for many of these tasks. It's not because I think college students are immature or lazy, it's because of the time commitment many of these tasks require. College students should be focused first and foremost on college, and it becomes difficult to do that if you are trying to coordinate fundraising for 13 district events with executives from dozens to hundreds of companies. There is a reason that many have suggested that a 501(c)(3) is necessary: managing districts can easily be a full time job for a group of people.

That being said, these tasks can and should be divided amongst people. Regardless of who you are and where you come from, if one of these tasks sounds like something you would be good and and are interested in doing, talk to your RPC about how you can help out in that area.

Saying to your RPC "I want us to switch to districts" isn't likely to get you anywhere. Saying "I want us to switch to districts, I think I would be good at doing X, and here are a few ideas I already have on X" is much more likely to lead somewhere.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

As someone who’s only knowledge of Minnesota is through seasons one and two of Fargo, I’m a little hesitant to comment on this thread. However, there’s a student on my team who will be attending school in Minnesota next year and is afraid of losing touch with FIRST. I’ve repeated told this student that Minnesota is a great place for FIRST because the massive growth of FRC teams opens up countless mentoring and volunteering opportunities. After reading this thread and seeing how hard it is even for MN alumni to get involved, I’m a lot less optimistic about an out-of-state student’s opportunities. I’ll echo the sentiments in this thread that open communication and transparency would help a lot in making the transition to districts. While my own district still has a long way to go, open meetings held both in person and over the internet have been critical in our move to districts.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I'll PM you about some of the resources GOFIRST provides college students who are interested in volunteering. I know many of our students volunteer with teams directly instead of at regionals, and that there are many teams around the metro area. Additionally, GOFIRST holds a variety of Chairman's and Kickoff related events with the goal of helping MN FIRST teams. I'm not sure if this student is attending the U of M, but even if not, feel free to have them get in touch with us.

The above invitation to get in contact applies to everyone - if you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

This is extremely insightful, and gives a great picutre of all that is needed behind the scenes for this to happen. I think if information like this was publically communicated from the RPC to the interested parties, I think a lot of the current animosity would be resolved.

I know GOFIRST runs the Summer Robotics Summit event; a community roundtable about the tranisition to districts and all the issues therein would, in my opinon, also help foster communication between the various groups in the state. I know members of the RPC have hosted roundtables at GOFIRST seminars before. I'd even be willing to personally go up and particpate.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

If your student is coming to UMN, please tell them to reach out to GOFIRST! We frequently get requests for mentors from metro area teams and are always looking for more FIRST alumni at the U to help these teams out. We also host a variety of off-season events (SRS, MN Splash, and various other workshops) that we always need more help with. I'm an out of state student at the U and I have been extensively involved with the FIRST community, though I have been more involved with FLL & FTC because that has been easier.

Up until this year, GOFIRST has been informed of positions at the Minneapolis regionals that were not yet filled and asked for help. This year, the group never received that information, but an email was sent out to teams requesting volunteers for positions such as flag assistants, safety glasses attendants, and spare parts desk attendants (I received this information because I'm on an email list as a mentor for a local team). When GOFIRST has received these requests in the past, emails have been sent to our general membership and people with the availability have stepped up to volunteer. In January I asked if I should send an email to the membership during a planning committee meeting and was told to hold off because hep from the group probably wouldn't be needed. When it was realized that more volunteers were needed, I'm not sure why the students at UMN weren't asked for help.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Wow, what a thread.

Collin's points about mediation are spot on - this is a serious issue that shouldn't be swept under the rug. It's not about a single document, or event, or volunteer, its a serious cancer inside the FIRST culture of a region. If you haven't been a 20 something up and comer in FIRST, you have to understand that seeing the other perspective is going to be very difficult for you. If you haven't had the responsibility of running an event to ensure 60 teams have an amazing time, you have to understand that seeing the other perspective is going to be very difficult for you.

As a 28 year old, now running a team for almost a decade, event chairing official FRC events, I really empathize with the frustrations I'm hearing from the low-mid aged college students in FRC. I've been disrespected, ignored and singled-out. I've also overreacted, lost my cool and missed the point. I get it. I've been there. My team is filled with college-aged mentors with a sprinkle of upper 20 somethings, I understand the frustrations on both sides of this discussion right now.

As an early 20s FRC mentor and volunteer, FIRST regional committee and volunteerism felt a lot like an Old Boys Club. You needed to know someone, or you weren't going to be involved how you wanted to. It sucked, plain and simple.

Were my expectations probably overly ambitious? Yeah, most certainly. But this is FIRST - you have a massive base of extremely talented young people thats growing every year who are being programmed to change cultures and break through barriers. Can we seriously expect them to just take a back seat until someone deems them 'ready'? (Subsequently I think thats why reading that in a document, even if it was only distributed once is what set off this storm.)

I liken it to a performance review at any employer. If you're a young employee, your growth and career path is a topic that is extremely important. Managers need to ensure their employees have a clear understanding of what it will take to reach the next level. Where employees get disgruntled is when they don't have that visibility and there is infrequent communication about where they stand. This is is what I am hearing when I read the posts from the many college-aged volunteers/mentors in this thread. They basically don't see the path - whether it exists or not isn't the problem to focus on, its that these eager-to-help people don't see it.


Honestly, the best thing to happen to New England on a volunteerism front was Districts. The issue was forced and the floodgates were opened. The barriers were broken. We no longer could rely on Dave Goric to Head Ref every event, or Kate Pilotte/Jacob Komar to FTA every event. These are awesome key volunteers, but we needed to diversify and holes were filled.

The hard part is you have to make a leap at some point. You can inch the cliff closer and closer by training keys for years ahead of time, but at some point in time - the region will need to jump. You may not see exactly where the key volunteers will be coming from, but the point is if there is never a hole to fill, or even visibility through consistent communication, the potential key volunteers will never materialize.

I'm super proud of New England, and its why I'm bragging about it now. We have an awesome mix of veterans who KNOW THEIR SH*T, and a spectacular group of eager 20-somethings - each group is getting a chance to shine- and its awesome to watch.

-Brando

Here in NC our district events are three days

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Have you ever studied history?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Under that logic, regionals are 4 days.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

This.
Change is always scary, even if it's something that other people have done successfully, because no people or groups of people are the same, so no solution is 100% universal. Sometimes though you just gotta grit your teeth and jump in. Make the decision. Commit.

I don't know how far along Minnesota is, but considering they've been talking about this for years, I assume they're not at square one. I could see the biggest reasonable roadblock would be money. How do we fund all the startup costs. Not sure how to help you there.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

So, where could a potential volunteer find out how far Minnesota First has gotten with these issues and where they need help?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Funny little quirk: why is there a Michigan, Michigan-Eastern, and Michigan-Western? All three list Gail Alpert, Regional Super-Director.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

+1000

This was a good introduction that hit the highlights.

Obviously, everything you quickly summarized in your message also contains a zillion additional layers/details. And the devils are definitely in the details, not in CD threads.

Knowing how much work there is to do outside of the brief weekends of the events surely puts some disagreements into perspective, and shines a light on just how many, many opportunities there are to work together, establish trust, and OBTW, prepare for the blips in the calendar that are the actual events.

Blake

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Evan,
If possible, can you ask this person to PM me, I am trying to understand and want to help alleviate the stress if I can?
Al

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Attachment 20435
http://www.mnfirst.org/contact

Attachment 20436
http://www.firstinspires.org/find-local-support

Mark, I believe, is also the 2015 Woodie Flowers Award recipient.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I'm certain they are monitoring this thread, however I'll share this message with them as well.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I thought the same thing, that was until Indiana jumped on board with Districts. And I have to say I enjoy them much more.
1. It helps those teams with lower funds attend more than one tournament.
2. It allows the Progression of Districts, District Champs, then Worlds.

I liked that it that it could cut down on the huge influx of teams attending Worlds. (I think it was 25%+ FRC teams attend world, with 600 teams spots and 200 of those got in because of a wait list..... I mean really? You are not filling all of the FRC spots and still you expand FRC but not JrFLL, FLL, or FTC numbers at all?)

Sorry back on track now.


I love that there are those people like Karthik and Pauline Tasci and countless others that have the passion that creates such great young leadership! At the same time I recognize that not everyone in college age/20's has that type of passion, dedication and maturity it takes to be in a Key Role or a leader within FIRST & it's events. I know several people that are still a Junior or Senior in high school that have the ability to be a Key Role person RIGHT NOW! while at the same time I know people older that do not have what it takes to be in those Key Role spots. I know there is always going to be the people that hold the idea of "you are too young to know/understand/be good for this role" I still see that as a shrinking group of people as the Leadership does become more of a younger generation.


So much this response! Districts takes a LOT of work. It needs to be something that everyone works on together on and asks What can I do to help make this move to Districts happen, along with sitting all at the same table to give input and ideas.

When is comes down to it, remember what FIRST is really about, it is about those students and helping to inspire them, we are just the volunteers at this point helping to create that path for them to get to their goals easier.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

QFT.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

So... No quick way to know at a glance where MN FIRST is on the path to districts?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I can relate to this very much. Being in the program now for 16, going on 17 years. And being an assistant FLL coach starting in 8th grade. With still being one of the "young ones" in my 20's and even after running tournament for the past 6 years I still understand getting pushed aside due to age, unless people know my history within the program.

Can it be annoying or frustrating at sometimes, yes. Now I don't let those comments bother me and I just get on with what I am doing. I know that I have a lot to offer my community with my experience in FIRST now it is just making sure I use that in my most positive impact that I can.

I think the biggest thing that has helped me to start to break into the so called Old Boys Club, is to become part of committee and boards within the local FIRST community, this has helped to build connections for my self and others like me that are some of the younger generation.

And let me tell you I am blessed living in Indiana and growing up with Veterans, and knowing and seeing teams since 2000 like 234 Cyber Blue, 45 TechnoKats, 47 Chief Delphi, (Before they were a website), and 71 Team Hammond win on Einstein in 2001 live in person while I was still in FLL. I got to met the Andy Bakers, and Chris Fultz as well as countless other now veterans of the FIRST Robotics world when I was very young. While they may not remember me, they did have an impact on why I continue to do FIRST robotics today.

I will ALWAYS continue to learn from these people that came before me, when in passing, conversations I might have had with them, and even seeing how they handle situations at events when they arise.

So I urge my age group in college and in our 20's. Be more like a sponge, and soak up as much as you can from those veterans in your area that were cornerstones and pillars within the FIRST community. Those that have those core values instilled within everything they do. I know if we do that now, we will be able to create a better FIRST community for all, when we end up becoming the "Old Boys Club" and the generation below us starts to yell at us that "you don't understand us at all"

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Sure there is. Reach out and contact the people involved. It's no more difficult than posting a message on Chief Delphi.

Interesting thread. There obviously is a lot more going on with this situation. As a FIRST mentor & volunteer from the West Coast, who has no idea what is going on in Minnesota, I wouldn't have any problems handing out that document to potential volunteers. I might tweak one or two lines if I was being picky, but overall it sure didn't come across to me as the negative approach that many are reading into it.

Like I said, the must be a lot more to the backstory here in order to create this negative trust level.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I've been thinking about how I want to respond to this thread since it popped up yesterday. I have about a million things I want to say, some of which I've been meaning to say since I first saw the document around this time last year, some of which are in response to things people have been saying in this thread. I'm going to try to get through all of them, but first, I feel like it's necessary to highlight a couple of posts which have been somewhat lost or ignored in this thread; specifically from the only other two GOFIRST people who are familiar with exactly how this document was presented to us and our immediate reactions to it:
Those people are Ryan and Prath. I can confirm that they're both who they say they are and that Ryan's version of events is pretty much how things went down from our view. I don't think either of them covered exactly how we responded, which was that we got together and wrote up some feedback from the document (some of it positive, some of it critical). We sent that to the presenter and related parties, and then we moved on. According to Jon, the document was discarded after that, which is unfortunate, because even though it has some issues it still fills a very important role of setting clear expectations (even if it has some issues).

Please re-read their posts before continuing if you plan on continuing to talk about the document, regardless of whether you read the rest of my post.

Now, strap yourself in, because I'm going to try to respond to every post in this thread that I feel a need to (ie, someone else hasn't responded with almost exactly what I would say).

One thing I would also like to highlight is Jon's post:
This document is around a year old at this point. People change, opinions change. I don't see it as hugely valuable to dig into this document and level accusations against MN FIRST or the RPC here. Without these people, many of the FIRST alumni here in MN would not be FIRST alumni, including myself.

I completely agree with you on a lot of this-- it's important for trust to exist between the volunteer and the volunteer coordinator, and part of that is definitely how someone handles themselves at and outside of events. That being said, I think there has been a tendency to over-react in the past to things that don't really warrant any sort of reaction at all-- I remember getting a call last year about a tweet I made about being assigned at Champs before I was assigned at regionals. Not "Wow, the RPC is so incompetent for not assigning me," but just a "Huh, that's interesting (about being assigned to champs first)" Honestly through the entire thing I was just sort of shell shocked, because it felt like a huge reaction to something totally innocuous. I don't feel like that's a unique situation here in Minnesota. ilovepineapples highlighted some stories from volunteers here, and unfortunately I can say that I recognize many of those stories.

Speaking for myself and not GOFIRST or anyone else, my disagreements with the current establishment in Minnesota are not born out of disrespect for the incredible things they've done for our program or from a desire to "climb the ladder" and usurp the existing order. I think think there's a misconception that some of the alumni posting here (probably including me) think that we know it all, that we have THE ONE TRUE SOLUTION, that we don't understand the complexities of of running a team or an event. In part, this is true. I don't know what goes on in RPC meetings, and I don't know everything that goes into districts or regionals. If you feel that I've misrepresented my knowledge of these things, I apologize. The closest I've come to organizing an FRC event is being part of the planning committee for one of 2220's week zero events, which is on a different scale entirely from a double regional, but was certainly enough to impress on me an appreciation for how difficult it is to run an event. I can't speak for everyone, but I'm very aware of what I don't know, and have expressed (publicly and privately) a willingness to learn and grow. Returning to the point I was trying to get at though, I think that the perspective I have is a much more common situation that someone explicitly trying to climb the ladder. I firmly believe that if you treat alumni like the adults we are, and assume that we want to help, we can and will deliver. My belief is vindicated by stories from Michigan, New England, Ontario, and California, among other places.

I don't know if it's me you're referring to with this statement, but if it is I'd really encourage you to actually read what I've been saying-- and know that my disagreements are based on both the knowledge I have now (flawed though it may be) and a deep respect for the teams and everyone involved. If you (or anyone else reading this) feels that I haven't been fair in my posts on districts here in MN, I'd love to hear it in public or in private. A lot of my energy goes into volunteering, mentoring, and running training events, but some small percentage of it still ends up in posts here, so if you think that can be redirected in a more efficient way let me know.


This is a lot of what's been holding me up posting in this thread. I'm tired of talking circles around making changes. I wanted to hold up until I could actually contribute something that would move this topic forward in a constructive way. The amount of MN drama that's been on here recently has been unpleasant for just about everybody involved, but I think it's something necessary to actually healing the situation here in MN. I've seen stories posted that I recognize and from people that I didn't know were running into issues here as well. I think for a lot of people here (who have posted and who haven't) it's a breath of fresh air to realize that they aren't alone in feeling like something is wrong here.


I can not agree more with this post. FRC here in Minnesota is absolutely filled to the brim with passionate people who want to be a part of making this program a success. Some of these people are capable of volunteering in key roles, some aren't. Some might work at companies that don't currently support FIRST in Minnesota, some might know where we can find space to store fields and host events. These aren't tasks that should be undertaken alone by the current RPC-- but in order for the broader MN FRC community to help, we need to know what the issues are-- Bryan Herbst's post was the closest I've ever seen to that.

Bryan, I completely agree-- there are tasks on here that college students are not a good fit for. There are also ones that we are absolutely a perfect fit for-- want help with funding? We have literally trained hundreds of students to track down funding for their teams and present in corporate environments. Volunteers? We've already covered that discussion. Field maintenance? Sounds like a great thing for students to do on weekends we aren't volunteering. Webcasting? I know of several alumni who have some very cool ideas on how to improve and run webcasts.

We're very much agreed that this work needs to be divided, but it needs to actually be communicated first, ideally through semi-official channels. I think Ryan hit the nail on the head when he said that the majority of teams probably don't know much about districts, much less what they can do to help.

Thank you for this post-- it is the clearest communication I've seen on what we need to do to go to districts here in MN.

As someone who is part of planning the Summer Robotics Summit, after some of the previous discussion on here and elsewhere, I am 100% on board with this. I'm really hoping we can make it happen and start making progress at the least towards educating teams on districts.

Brian, I've agreed with a lot of what you've said, but I just wanted to highlight this because it's really core to what I and I think a lot of others believe: I am here to help and inspire these students, and that can take many forms, from volunteering to mentoring. Ultimately that's where I think almost all of us are coming from, and it behooves everyone involved to remember that.


As a final remark, I'd like to reiterate what I've said before: for all I disagree with the people who are currently running FIRST in MN, they still have my absolute respect. I find it disappointing that people have been taking some cheap shots (subtle and not so much) at their character. But my respect does not mean constant deference. I like to say that liking someone, respecting someone, and being willing to disagree with them are completely separate things. Disagreement is not inherently disrespectful.

Well, I think I just beat my personal best for post length. I'm sorry if you don't like reading; apparently I just really like writing (that's almost a chairman's essay and a half of content).

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to cadandcookies again.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Re:Tanis see above...
Bryan,
I looked at your list and thought immediately as to what MN actually needs. So if we think about needing to satisfy 208 teams with at least two events plus a district championship, and figuring on 30 teams/district event...
That would require 14 events. Over a six week season, that would be more than 2 events each weekend plus the Champs at the end of the season. Thinking about growth and including Dakota teams, let's bump that to 16 events. So that means MN First has to find a lot of venues/high schools and cover maybe 300 volunteer positions each week. The numbers start to get staggering don't they?
I am not on the MN RCP, I am just brainstorming what it will take because Brian's post started me down this exercise. So going into something I am more familiar with, we would need 15 inspectors on average per week including three LRIs. We certainly cannot ask people to work every week but say they can commit to two events, that makes a need for about 45 inspectors including 9 LRIs. Then there is the need to provide meals. 300 people needing just four meals per weekend (It is actually more than that) adds up to 7600 meals including the Champs. Throw a number at that ($10/plate but likely more) and you get $76,000 just for meals. Add to that venue costs, cleanup, fields, scales, and a need for 900 volunteers, etc. I think people can see this is something that can't be accomplished overnight.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I am making a stand alone post here because I do want to emphasize this statement.

Maturity does not go hand in hand with age. I have had many FIRST Alumni working as Inspectors. I depend on those people to help fill needs at all events including the Championship. I hope that those who have worked with me know how I cherish their involvement. However, inspections are a very difficult volunteer position, as is reffing and judging. (I think tech judging for FLL is harder than FRC inspections) They are hard because of the skills needed and the unique ability to work with students and mentors. These positions are the front line of FIRST events. You want the best possible candidates for these positions because your whole season is on the line. Volunteer Coordinators choose these positions carefully because of the impact on teams. I have team members shadow me at events all the time. The universal response is "I can't keep up with you and I could never do this." Well the truth is many of them can and do. However, for me (parent speaking) family, school, and career are more important that anything else including volunteering at a FIRST event. I would rather you get those parts of your life in order than to work for me as an inspector. You will have more fun and I know you will be a much better inspector.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Maybe we should bring that topic to the front. It seems to me that the angry response of a group of people is based on that perception of aggressiveness. I admit to being completely unfamiliar with that group's context, so I have no way to understand their reaction beyond reading the words presented here. With only those words, I can see this situation as kind of a litmus test -- if you believe Minnesota is trying to push you away from volunteering based on what you read into them, your mindset might make you a poor choice for a Key Volunteer position. If I knew more about the reality of the situation (beyond a laundry list of second-hand comments from an anonymous poster), I might have a different impression of what's going on.

It looks like that's exactly what happened:

But then the original untested version got "leaked":

The same thing probably happened with the GOFIRST group. The difference is that people there seem to have thought it was an official directive from the MN FIRST leadership, instead of a draft intended for review and comment.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I showed it to Bison Robotics after making the changes and getting it checked out. Nothing was leaked to my knowledge. I worked with the people who made the document because it was requested of me. I sincerely wish the conversation would shift from "offensive" words on a sheet of paper to the real issues. I highly doubt the members of GOFIRST represented here actually care about how that document is worded. They may have found the presentation off putting, but I doubt they really even care about that. I'd be willing to bet that their biggest concerns include being able to volunteer in a role of their choice, *and being able to talk about things freely online without repercussion.

Let's start talking about important issues, and get over the wording of a dead document.

To start things off, I reccomend reading Tanis' post. Brilliantly stated and a great response to the original question: "How do I help move my area to districts?". It was brilliant, but didn't cover everything. I'd love to see people continue to add information. Hopefully the RPC will take notice, and the community will be informed, and we can end this argument once and for all.

*Things that are in good taste, but potentially controversial

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

To re-iterate what Ryan said earlier, the document itself (all on its own) is not by itself off putting to the group. It was the presentation of the document (and the tone of the presentation) at a meeting not intended for that purpose.


The document was never distributed to GOFIRST members by the group's leadership. The only members (FIRST alumni and non-FIRST alumni) who saw the document were given it directly by the speaker at the meeting or were leaders of the group who did not attend the meeting and were emailed a copy of the document. So, the document was never "leaked"

YES. YES. YES. This. So much this. Thank you Ryan!! I would really like to have a conversation about how we can bring back the FIRST alumni who feel disillusioned about volunteering in MN and get them involved again. Not even in a key role, but just in a role that makes them feel that their knowledge of FIRST is being utilized and they are able to give back to the program that meant so much to them in high school.

I agree. To add to this, it would also be great to talk about how college students can play some (maybe small) part in helping move an area to districts. It's true that college students cannot do all of the things Bryan listed on their own, but I think they would be willing to assist with many of them and participate on subcommittees designed for a specific task associated with moving an area to districts and helping an area succeed in districts.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

You are certainly correct that becoming part of the district system is not something that can be done overnight, there is a lot of leg work that needs to be done to lay the foundation.

The sweet spot for district sizing is 36-40 teams based on our experience in the PNW. If MN was to get on this right away they could possibly pull it off in time to do 12 40 team events to provide enough capacity w/o the need for more than 2 events per week. Assuming of course that the venue scheduling can be worked out to make that happen, which is not an easy feat. It does need to be done the school year before the switch due to the fact that it can be difficult to connect with the right people during the summer and by the start of the school year they can already have many events on their schedule.

For inspectors at a district event I try to have 1 inspector for every 3 or 3.5 teams for the load-in and inspection night. That means 12 or 13 inspectors for that day. In the PNW our load in night (day 0) runs 5-9:30 and our goal, which we some times make is to have everyone inspected that night. The reality of course is that some teams have to make significant changes and we usually have a fair number of teams that need to be completed the morning of day 1. Knock on wood but we have always been able to have everyone ready for their 1st match. Because the demand drops off significantly many of those day 0 inspectors transition to other volunteer roles, CSA, Machine Shop, Que, Ref, Field reset are some of the other positions that they fill. Others go back to working with their team. A handful will return for the pre-finals inspections mid Day 2.

With that number of inspectors you have the ability to assign an inspector to a team that needs a lot of work and ensure that they keep moving forward with the deadline in place.

As far as the food for volunteers there are a number of advantages to being in the district which drops the costs significantly. I know for many of the venues we have used for Regionals in the PNW have strict contracts with one or a few catering companies that you are locked into using for any food in the venue. The venue contracts also usually disallow participants from bringing food into the venue.

That changes significantly when the event takes place in a HS or University. A number of the locations that we use have culinary programs. So they will cater the volunteer food and at a much more reasonable cost that the for profit companies. We have also found that many of the host teams are able to find someone in their community that donate some or all of the food, or at least offer it at a serious discount.

For the participants, usually the school's lunch room is open and teams are free to bring in their own food. Most will have their concession stands open and a few invited a food truck or two giving the participants and spectators a wider variety at a much lower cost.

In our first season in the district system it worked out that the direct out of pocket costs for the 10 district events was roughly equal to the cost of the DCMP which was a long time Regional location which was not the most expensive venue that had been used in our area.

Just to reiterate that, 10 yes 10 district events at a similar cost as a Regional at a moderately priced stadium. For most teams that also means 2 District events at a cost similar to the one Regional. For some teams it is less because they can stay at home for one event and only need 2 nights of accommodations vs 3 and the hotels near the suburban events are often much cheaper than the usual down town location of stadiums. Yes some teams see their costs go up because they do have to travel to both events and suddenly some of those traditionally "one and done" team have earned a spot at DCMP.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Could you share with us how you handle the movement of fields throughout the season? Do you rent a semi truck each week or do you have some means of transportation donated?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

The leak Alan was referring to *might* have been the one that happened at the start of this thread. And, even if he wasn't referring to the start of this thread, I will.

Let's be 100% clear: Regardless of whether the document was or wasn't "leaked" before this thread began, it certainly is "leaked" now. It was used as an important point in message that started this thread.

If that was a misstep, someone should own it. If it wasn't a misstep, progress in some areas is going to be harder.

Blake

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I won't speak for the PNW, but I know New England has a warehouse where they store fields during the offseason. During the season, they use PODS storage units to transport the field (one field fits in four PODS) between events. Also note that New England uses a full set of road cases and ships all the carpet to be used in a season in the PODS, which not every district does, and this increases the shipping requirements.

The PODS usually get dropped off at the venue school a few days before the event and sit in the parking lot until they get unpacked and set up. After the field gets torn down, the PODS get loaded, and the company takes them to the next venue.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

While this is not the topic of the thread, I feel the need to post and respectfully disagree with you on this one.

Based off of what I have read from Ryan, Prath and Nick, it seems this document was handed out into the public domain to FIRST students and non-FIRST students at a "Meet an Engineer" type meeting hosted for all students at their University. You can't "leak" a document in the public domain. As to why it wasn't posted here earlier and when it was, it was done from an anonymous account? I would like to point at a previous post of mine in this thread.

That certainly is a unique way to do it that I hadn't thought of! I plan on doing a little research to see how much that costs, however do you know how much New England spends over an entire season on PODS?

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

We use a 53' semi trailer. For our first two seasons the use of a shipping container and trailer was donated via a parent of a student participant who works for a shipping company that just so happens to do a lot of their business shipping to AK, that means that during the winter they have lots and lots of containers and trailers that are unused. They also arranged to connect us with owner/operators to two said trailers which the PNW district payed for.

For some reason this year he was not able to make that happen so we went for plan B. Plan B was to rent traditional 53' trailers we were able to get a good deal because of an Alumni who now owns a company that does stage lighting and AV production and has connections and accounts that allow him to get a good price. I'm not sure if he arranged the truck or not this season.

Note we seem to be unique in using this approach. One of the reasons that we do it this way is that we own all the production equipment, we don't rent things like pipe and drape or sanctions and we do all of our own AV. So we manage to fill that 53' trailer to within a couple of feet from the end, and that is with many cases double stacked. The trailers come back to our Fieldhouse between events where they are partially unloaded to restock the consumables and occasionally do some repairs.

I know that some other areas use PODS. The PODS are delivered to the warehouse that accepts the shipments from FIRST where they are packed for the current season's game, then the company picks them up and transports them to the venues. I don't know what they do about consumables, whether they pack it all from the begining like FIRST does with their trucks, whether they are transported by volunteers, or if the PODS are returned to a central location for restock. PODS then stores the fields during the off-season.

The trailers work for us because we have the Fieldhouse where everything is stored in the off season and much of that equipment like floor coverings, pipe and drape, power cord protectors and AV is used for FLL and FTC events. The Fields are also used for off season events, they have been used for both the OR and WA Girl's Generation events, Comicon in Salt Lake, the AZ state CMP and Chezy Champs. So it is nice to have it all at our facility for the common carrier of the user's choice to pickup at our loading dock.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I do not know what NE spends on PODS costs, unfortunately.

I would guess that using PODS is one of the more common shipping methods used by districts. I know MAR also stores their fields in PODS during the season (I don't know any more about their arrangements, though) and that the Chesapeake events probably use them as well (I've seen PODS in the parking lot which I assume is for the field, but I haven't set up one of their fields yet, so I can't say for sure).

It's a big advantage that loading/unloading PODS does not require a loading dock (something most high schools don't have) - you can just roll cases directly out of the POD and in the door to the school. For the PNW people in this thread - how are you dealing with not having loading docks at all your venues (or do you)?

Plus, the PODS moving trucks are super cool.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Marshall McLuhan famously said that "The medium is the message." Not that "the medium influences the message." He says that the way we present things changes what the message actually is, and by-and-large, he's right. As media creators, we ask ourselves all the time "what form should this take?" In some cases we're talking format (TV vs Billboard vs Newspaper vs Virus-laden Popup), but we're also talking tone, word choice, format, aesthetics.

FIRST is an organization that is chock-full of engineers. Engineers are often very, very good at talking to other engineers. That's the major strength of technical writing: hard to misunderstand clearly-written instructions with no extra fluff. However, they are also pretty good at putting feet in mouths (this is basically half of the drama I ever see on CD). Case study: Al's posts in this thread. We all know Al. We know he's the LRI. We know he's on a Hall of Fame team. We know he knows incredible, mature, inspiring students. But he was torn apart for a bit there because his post conveyed a message that he didn't want to convey (and he had to clarify his point in later posts).

The Minnesota doc just reeks of Engineer-speak to me. You can look at it, and say "it concisely conveys the information we want it to." And that's it. It really makes no attempt to draw the reader in, to provide information in a conversational way. You might think "well, that's not necessary," except half of the posts in this thread have shown that, yes, it is necessary. Because while it's all well and good to have a manual written in technical talk, volunteers are not robots. Volunteers are built around passion and relationships. You know what technical writing is rubbish at conveying? Passion.

A volunteer that wants to donate huge chunks of their time doesn't want to be treated like a cog in the machine. That's not how healthy FRC teams treat their students or mentors, and that shouldn't be the way RPCs (Minnesota, or any other) treat their volunteers. People like to be individually recognized. Look at the GuamFIRST copy: they have a joke about Lunacy! That's awesome! I actually chuckled to myself when I read that! That joke makes me feel connected to the author, and as a result, that makes me more interested in volunteering. I know from the get-go that this organization puts in an effort to include me, and that inclusion translates into feeling like those major volunteer roles with the prestige are actually within grasp. I feel like the organization is going to build me up.

The Minnesota copy sounds like a job ad. The GuamFIRST copy sounds like a non-profit organization looking for passionate people to help out. Which does its job more effectively? (heck, what is the job??? he effectiveness answer hinges on the job the document is trying to do.) Again, same information, slightly different approaches (so slightly that there's trouble in this very thread identifying them). Different meaning.

The Medium is the Message. We all know to be careful about what we write, but being wary of how we write something is often forgotten.

I know I'm sounding a little condescending here. However, this goes both ways. I like to think that I'm decent at inter-personal communications. But ask me to write a lab report, and I cannot do it. I haven't learned how to. That's why figures like Karthik are so cool - they are ideal communicators, able to effectively get their points across to anyone, regardless of their background.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

In NE at least, we stock all consumables at the beginning of the season, labeled and allocated out to events, just as FIRST does on regional fields. (We also ship all carpets, something FIRST does not do). Since we have pretty much the full set of cases regional trucks have, (with a few cases being combined), we can do this. Once the PODS and fields leave the NE FIRST warehouse, they won't roll back through until after DCMP week 7.

While we try to not do consumable restocking, obviously things happen. In that case, we'll overnight extra materials, or have a volunteer/staff member bring them, depending on the situation.

We actually no longer use PODS for off-season storage. The fields stay in our warehouse, and off-seasons are responsible for arranging their own logistics to borrow fields.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

It costs more than trucking, I can say that. It's certainly not a cheaper alternative to trucks, and we're always evaluating whether the extra expense is worth it or not. As Phil mentioned, we mainly stick with PODS because it allows us to easily unload equipment at venues that don't have loading docks. Currently the majority of our venues fall into this situation.

If most of your venues have loading docks, then unless you can't find warehouse space, there is no reason to not use a truck. It's cheaper, and easier. Once you start dealing with lift gates and fork lifts, it's a different story.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

As previously mentioned, FIRST Mid-Atlantic (MAR) also uses PODS to transport and store our fields. In total, we have 8 PODS, 4 for each field. This number grows and shrinks each year depending on the game. Much like PNW, MAR owns quite a bit of our own equipment including pipe and drape, A/V, computer systems, electrical wiring for pits, etc. which is all shipped from official event to event without ever returning to a MAR facility. Offseason events get a subset of the equipment that essentially is just the field and that year's game specific elements. For carpet, we elect to have a new set of field carpet for each event and ship the practice field carpet from event to event. While this is an additional cost, it saves room in the PODS, eliminates the headache of precisely rolling the carpet at the end of the event, and saves time on event setup due to the carpet being brand new. Unfortunately MAR does not have a warehouse or similar facility to use as a central location, but we have been able to use a local school for deliveries of the year's game specific components (usually about a semi-truck full for two fields), organizing and packing, and limited storage. The cost of the PODS is not insignificant, but it is not unreasonable either. I believe you could estimate the cost in tens of thousands for an entire year, including shipments to offseason events and storage.

For field consumables, we have red totes that are larger than the recycle rush totes filled with tape, zip ties, etc. for each event. Last year these were shipped in the PODS but this year we had them ready to go early enough that all the venues had their consumable totes before the end of build season. We also have a spare tote and left overs from previous events that get shipped ahead.

Edit: Also, we do not stack any road cases for safety reasons. We used to but we thankfully stopped the practice before we had any incidents.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

None of the events that I have worked have a loading dock. We use a fork lift that is sometimes rented and sometimes provided by the venue. This year the trailers do have lift gates which does make it easier to deal with that huge cart that FIRST created to carry most of the defenses. However other than that we still use a forklift for unloading. I consider this a neccesity because to get everything in a 53' trailer a lot of cases are double stacked and using a forklift to do that is infinitely safer than having 6 or 7 people lift up a case while someone else rolls the bottom one in or out. Having a forklift also makes dealing with the carpet a much safer proposition because we own 2 carpet poles that travel on the truck. Stick the pole in the roll lift it off easily and place it on top of one of the 8' long road cases. It can then be rolled to exactly where it is needed. No need to have a bunch of people trying to deal with such a heavy and awkward item.

Yes renting forklifts cost money. For the first two seasons we payed standard retail prices from a couple of companies depending on the location. We now have a rental company that covers the entire area and gives us special pricing on the forklifts and generators that are needed at certain events. The drop them off Day 0 and then pick them back up the following Monday. The first two seasons the schedules were such that we only needed a generator at one event each week and we rented it for the entire 6 weeks and one of the volunteers towed it to the events and back to the Fieldhouse for storage during the week.

All of this points out just like there isn't only 1 right way to build a competitive robot there is no 1 right way to handle the transportation and production of the events. There are now several different methods used by the various existing districts that you can look to for guidance and of course you can pick and chose the different elements that work best for your area.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

OK,
I have done some research.
Partly because I want this to die and partly because it is Easter and we should think about more important things...
The MN doc was a draft of an idea shown to the leadership of one team and a small group of U of MN Minneapolis students who were asked for input more than a year ago. As others have stated but no one has really picked up on, it was not made public, it was not widely distributed and it was never published until now. It was never edited, and never morphed into another document. For all intents and purposes it never saw the light of day for FIRST in Minnesota.
Now that that is out of the way, please consider the title of the thread in your future responses.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

That is interesting that you do fresh carpet for every event instead of using it for two as we do in the PNW. Personally I'd rather start with a used set of carpet as I find it saves at least a 1/2hr since you don't have to cut off the selvedge and if you line it up right you have the basic chalk marks and tape ghosts to go by. That is not to say that everything isn't verified but it is easier and quicker in my opinion.

I wouldn't say that you have to roll the carpet precisely, I know it doesn't happen at most of our events and have not had a problem using the carpet pole to move them around. The only time there is a problem is when someone rolls it up w/o the cardboard core, or if they damaged the cardboard core. I've had a couple of nightmares dealing with how to move a roll of carpet with no core and rolled with no room in the middle for the core, or a broken core.

For us the trailers have tracks for load bars so we place a number of them at the top for the carpet to sit on. With a forklift and carpet pole this works nicely.

Yes we have a forklift at the Fieldhouse, a newer one was donated this year to replace the ancient one that was originally purchased.

How big is each POD, I'm having a hard time imagining just how many sq ft of floor space would be needed if cases weren't stacked. I certainly understand not stacking them if you don't have a forklift to stack/unstack. I was always scared that someone could be seriously injured doing it that way.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

I'd guess that you have better results than we did with used carpet. It seemed that used carpet would require much more kicking out/work to get it flat due to kinks, etc. from the way it sits when shipped when compared to a new carpet. We keep the offseason carpets from event to event and not once have I tried or been able to use the same chalk lines.

Rolling the carpets precisely is a requirement of the PODS. The PODS we use are 16ft long and when rolling a 15ft wide carpet, you only have 1ft to play with for the carpet to "pencil" out before it wont fit anymore. Not an impossible task, but it can be frustrating at times, especially at the end of the event when all you want to do is go home and sleep.

The 16ft PODS are roughly 8ft wide by 16ft deep and 8ft tall (interior dimensions are a bit smaller). With 4 PODS, this is about 512 square feet per field. This year we need almost every last inch of space in the PODS.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Yeah if you have to stick it in a 16' space that extra 1.5' from a quick rolling could be a real nightmare.

Another benefit from the shipping containers is that the ones we used had a 102" inside width. The trailers are slightly narrower but still wide enough to slip a 20 or 21 in a row with 3 "standard" cases. You can also spin a standard ~8' cases to load them width wise if that works better.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

Kevin covered how MAR logistics work, but I figured I can add info about costs to those who are interested.

A PODS container rental is roughly $230/mo. We have negotiated it down to $150/mo. This is a flat rate regardless if the container is stored in their "conditioned" warehouse of left in a school parking lot all summer (yes we do that sometimes).

Delivery of the containers is based on mileage and distance from the PODS depots. In the MAR region, there are 2 major hubs: one outside Philadelphia, PA and one outside of New Brunswick, NJ. We stage each of our fields in these two locations so the mileage is reduced. A container delivery can be anywhere from $80 to $250 and pick up is free. A trip between depots is around $300-500. For these reasons, we try to limit moving our containers across the river. Another example: to ship a container from the MAR region to FIRST HQ (which we do to return the FMS and game specifics each year) costs $1000.

Re: How do I help my area move to districts?
 

That underlined line needs to be bolded, italicized, and underlined in bigger font. If you have the maturity for a given position that you would like to be in, but aren't in the position you want, talk to someone who is there to shadow them when you can, while still attending to your actual position. Trust me. I've been there. I know someone else who is there currently. (As I was reading this thread, I had the exact same thought. Age != Maturity. No matter what the creators of the '07 Algorithm of Doom might think...)

By the way, more on the original topic... One reason I started expanding my volunteering was because I recognized that to go to districts (or simply more events, period--either one badly needed around here), volunteers and key volunteers would be needed, the more experienced the better. I simply volunteered (though doing inspection and reffing in the same event can be pretty rough, as I found out the hard way--was better-ish this year though). Want to help your area move? Start making moves that can help. I've done field reset. I've done field setup AND field teardown. I've done Spare Parts. And I've done reffing and inspecting (and, for that matter, I plan to keep doing those for quite a while). Start somewhere, and once you find your niche, work your way up. Had a good laugh when I couldn't log in to the inspection tablets because I was listed as an LRI--I'm not, but couldn't resist telling the LRI that someone thought I was after his job--as a joke, of course, after that got straightened out!