Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

This year has been an interesting year for scaling mechanisms as teams try to meet some very difficult design constraints. With many teams deciding to go under the low bar, the packaging problem that comes with a scaling mechanism can get very challenging. I wanted to create a thread to talk about all of the awesome "out of the box" ways that teams have solved this problem.

Obviously what comes to mind is 118's grappling hook - as far as I know we've never seen anything like that before.

But for my contribution I want to spotlight SWAG 4060:

https://www.facebook.com/swag4060/vi...02735356484448

Their scaling mechanism is a long inflatable tube with a hook at the end! It doesn't even look like they can scale until the last 20 seconds, when a giant tube unfurls out of their robot and attaches to the rung. Their hanger got them all the way to the finals at Auburn, but sadly they didn't get enough points to get to PNW Champs.

What awesome scaling mechanisms have you seen?

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

As a low bot...ours was super compact, pretty climb and very fast when it worked and went all the way to top once too far.
Simple scissor with slots in top part instead of holes so top could center and pop off to winch up.

We used a winch connected to "collapsible coat hanger" part of the scissor and 2 Cims.
Had a wood box centering it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fF5at9wG0Ug

Successful QF scale in SD week 1 at end of clip.
We were alliance 8 they were alliance 1

One of our original designs was something either inflatable as in OP or with a spring like a snake, we spent lots of time initially looking a different options. Glad inflatable worked that is cool. Love its simplicity.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

How does 4060 ensure that as the balloon thing collapses when lifting up, that it stays within the 15" extension zone?

It doesn't look like it sticks too far out in the video but also seems like it could potentially end farther out.

I'm sure they thought this through so I'm just curious as to how they're solving that issue. I would think some strong attached to the middle with a spring or something could guide it to collapse back into the robot.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

We had an idea like that but decided that it would have failed inspection under R77 and as clarified by Q688.

I don't know how 4060 did this, but we were considering a coiled wire or tube inside the inflatable that kept things from getting too far out of hand. Our first iteration would have been with a piece of lightweight dryer vent tube.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDcDmt2Or70

Link to a match where both us (226) and 217 scaled. We have a multi-stage lift made using rev-rail, and is connected to a series of constant load springs. The bottom of the mechanism is attached to a winch. At the end of the match the driver reverses the winch, allowing for the mechanism to go up, and then brings it down to scale. We used 2 cims for the scaler, and a back drive gearbox with a servo. I'm not sure about 217's scaler, but I think it uses similar tactics with a lock to firmly grip the rung.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I was told while spectating 4060 at Auburn on Saturday that they fill the tube using a fan, separating it from the pneumatic system. I believe they 3D printed many of the components.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

It looks like that homebrew compressor was pushing a whole lot more than 1.1 cfm. If you're doing work with air, it's a pneumatic device. (Noted exception for closed cycle air springs.)

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

If this is true, then all fans and fan-blown vacuum devices on FRC robots are illegal.

It is unclear to me what constitutes a pneumatic device. Obviously nothing custom can be connected to the "canonical" pneumatic system on the robot, which is heavily regulated.

EDIT: Vacuums are legal per R77. Other things maybe not.

Hard to argue that an inflatable tube hanger does not create compressed air.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I love the confidence with which you make your clearly wrong statement.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

so how does a 3d printed fan fill a cheapo innertube to extend...?
could this be the work of a secondary compressor? (it may very well be the same work of the one original with a solenoid allowing for a tank to empty into it... or something... :/

also, i dont know that its the most consistent way to hook onto the bar, seeing as it wobbles here and there when they do it...

(again, please let me know if i have the wrong thought train here...)

(like, please... pretty please)

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Custom Airblowers created from legal motors and fan parts are not constrained by the Pneumatic rules.

If you don't believe me please point to the rule(s) that prove what you are saying.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I guess we may never know the answer to the age old question:

How much SWAG is too much SWAG?

Our scaling mechanism proved to be effective.
One or two issues with hook delivery. Our hook got bounced out of holder due to bouncing around by we solved that

https://vimeo.com/161551049

We used two 200 lb gas springs with 16" stroke ganged together to pull 32" of cable
Once hook was positioned it never failed.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Wow that looked super fast. What made yall go with this decision verses a winch.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Rule R79:
"Compressed air on the ROBOT must be provided by one and only one compressor. Compressor specifications must not exceed nominal 1.10 cfm flow rate @ 12VDC."

this has already been pointed out...

also, a custom fan blowing a tube up (like a balloon) would be, in any circumstance, a compressor, thereby violating this rule. ergo, the custom fan has got to go if it is actuating something like it is.

We decided to use stored energy so that it would continue to climb once released. Also no chance of back driving. It is very fast.
We built a device that used a trailer winch to pre load shocks before matches.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

2386 nearly went with using gas shocks too. They have the advantage of still pulling the robot up even once the buzzer goes. Effectively giving you another 5 seconds to the match.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

3.1.4

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

3.3.1

The final assessment of ROBOTS having SCALED or CHALLENGED the TOWER is made five (5) seconds
after the ARENA timer displays zero (0), or when all ROBOTS have come to rest following the conclusion
of the MATCH, whichever happens first.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

The way I interpret it is that if your robot no longer meets the criteria of scaled (falls, back drives) after the conclusion of the match it does not count.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Safety rule #1:

G1:
ROBOTS whose operation or design is dangerous or unsafe are not permitted.

Violation: If before the MATCH, the offending ROBOT will not be allowed to participate in the MATCH.
If during the MATCH, the offending ROBOT will be DISABLED.

Examples include, but are not limited to: A. Uncontrolled motion that cannot be stopped by the DRIVE TEAM
__________________________________________________ ____
There, so the # 1 rule for safety is that the robot is not permitted to make actions which the drive team cannot control... right? so if the robot is still releasing some form of energy (compressed air, compressed spring, etc...) after the completion of the match, how are they to stop it? (they can't)


pm or email me if you have a comment about that ^

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Here is our climb:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc8e...vOaUM3LD&t=174

We are on the left. We use power antenna to lift the hooks which are held on via magnets. The antenna are then retracted leave the hooks hanging. The hooks stay on very well since they too have magnets to keep them attached to the bar. Our driver was still running in the lowest speed. He should be able to go up a bit faster.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

But, if you happen to be flooring it for the batter at the conclusion of the match, and you're just not quite on at the buzzer but the robot ends up fully on there, you'll be quite happy with getting no challenge (and potentially no capture), even though your robot meets the conditions?

Right, didn't think so. If your robot is still moving at the time power is cut off, it's got 5 seconds to stop moving. At that time, it is assessed for points.

bennett, it can be perfectly safe to have a pneumatic cylinder in operation, provided the operation was triggered by the drive team (or the robot's timers). I've seen that one way too many times, under far stricter pneumatics rules. 2004, 2010 to some extent...

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Here's FRC Team 1501 lifter in action (still action :D ):http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/43471
The hook design uses a spring to hold it back while we drive around the field. When we are ready to lift we use a pneumatic lifter to lift the hook to the bar. When it hits the bar, the spring over centers the hook and a spring pin keeps the hook from opening up as we lift. There are two pulleys for the rope.
Since the hook is loose in the lifter, we pinch the two ropes and the strap between the two lifter joint pieces.
The rope loop is attached to the front corners of the robot. When we lift we engage the PTO on our tranny. This reels in a ratchet strap that is attached to the rope.
We have tweaked it and it should be ready for the Indiana State Championships

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

4060's definitely got my #1 most creative latching design this year. This was beyond the realm of any ideas my team threw out, and beyond what I've read/been inspired by in the past. Well done, IMO.

I really like the scaling designs by 148/1114, wherein they negate the effect of scaling neighbors by angling the bumpers completely clear of the volume the neighbors would occupy during a scale.

1418's scaling mechanism consists of a scissor lift hook that's spring-actuated, and then a direct-cabled winch pulls the hook back down for the scale. It is quite compact and fits in a neat, tidy rectangular volume on the rear of their robot. The spring has a bit of force to it, so their latching mechanism to keep it in place is the tough thing for them to solve/maintain - yet they did it very well in their 2nd competition this season. It takes them about 15 seconds to line up, deploy and scale. They solve the problem of neighbors by scaling much higher than the requirement.

2363's mechanism is pretty fun to watch. It unfolds in two different directions - think of a 'vertical flop' mechanism. It takes about 10 seconds for them to line up, deploy and scale. The deployment used to be SUPER fast.

I think 842's takes the win overall though. You just can't beat a mechanism that was implemented day-of using a crazy-simple set of parts. It really makes me want to find a spare 3 lbs so I can take the build kids through the non-trivial and ever-so-humbling venture into finding volume on the bot to put all of the winch components.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Im sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but this was specifically ruled illegal. See Q&A Q738 - unless you replaced the antenna motor with a legal motor?

https://frc-qa.firstinspires.org/Que...omotive-motors

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

For the purpose of FRC, a compressor is a positive displacement device.

Fans are legal per R29:

A fan is a fan, not a compressor. The rule does NOT say "a fan is legal unless you blow it into a tube", so don't try to create rules that don't exist,

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

What about:

FRC doesn't define a compressor but they do say that there shall be only one source of compressed air, and that it must be rated 1.10cfm or less. I don't remember anything about a positive displacement device in the rules...

That is unless they replace the motor with a legal frc motor.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Note: the below is my opinion. I am not on the GDC. For a definitive ruling, submit a question to the GDC.

A fan does not provide compressed air, it provides flow. That is why it is very difficult to even find a rating for delta P for most muffin fans as supplied in the KOP in the past. But I was able to find a rating for for a special "high static pressure" muffin fan for restrictive computer cases. This "high static pressure" fan was able to create a static delta P of .002 PSI when dead-headed.

Fans are listed in the rules under the electrical rules, not the pneumatic rules, for the excellent reason that they are not pneumatic devices.

The Q&A cited earlier was a question about using air from a solenoid valve attached to the pneumatic system, not a fan.

If you are not a member of the GDC, do not cite your opinion as fact (note that I have taken my own advice).

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Until and unless the GDC clarifies otherwise, I'll continue to assume that the manuals are written in American English.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

We caught that and replaced it with a legal motor before we even attached it to the robot.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I drove down to the PNW Auburn district on Saturday and stopped by 4060's pit. The bag is inflated by a 550 motor spinning a 3D printed impeller inside of a 3D printed casing. They ensure it doesn't break the 15" rule by folding it back a certain way before each match. The bag is taped (I forget what kind of tape, it was fairly rigid looking stuff however) and the tape gives it some rigidity to stay upright while it's filled with air. There is a string inside of the bag that is attached to a spool on a winch that is used to lift the robot.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Can't really argue with that. Of course it really has no bearing on the productive discussion at hand. My admonishment stands: If you are not on the GDC, please do not state your opinion as fact.

Are my bumpers compressors? When my robot is in motion, there is a rise in static pressure across the surface. What about closed cell foam (like pool noodles are made of)? when force is applied to the foam, the pressure inside the cells of the foam is increased. Every time two robots collide or push against each other they are creating air pressure inside the closed cell foam far in excess of anything that could be produced by a muffin fan.

The pneumatic system rules are very clear. Fans are not mentioned, in English or any other language.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I hope after this coming weekend our team will be able to present our design, our team caded and built it in about 7 days of work. We tested it on an old robot and got it to work almost perfect just struggling on getting the back of the robot up the extra two inches needed because of the sag. We are bringing it to our event with our withholding allowance and gonna give it a shot. we have some ideas t solve the problem

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

3250 utilized a grappling hook and winch mechanism that proved to be highly effective. It did require precise alignment on the tower base to engage the hook. The thing I think that worked best about the design was the speed of the climb, less than 10 seconds from deployment:

https://youtu.be/47A-pXj1Ik4

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

What are you even talking about? Like, honestly, this post makes absolutely no sense. No one said anything about what language to read the manual in, or the definitions of words.

The Manual allows fans, both electronics muffin fans and fans powered by FRC motors. A cloth bag placed over a fan is not containing compressed air - it's just containing air. The bag restricts flow of the air somewhat but it is not airtight - the bag does not stay even close to inflated the second the air is cut.

These rules have been the same for years, and in previous years the GDC has explicitly allowed mechanisms just like these. There's substantial historical precedent for these mechanisms (see blockers in 2013, similar hanging mechanisms in 2010, etc). You can't state your opinion as certain fact and then refuse to listen to anyone else's view unless the GDC says so. You're applying different levels of scrutiny to yourself versus others.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Do the Canadians get this in Canadian English?

What about those Aussies?

And we can't forget the Hawaiians!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Seriously Gus, your logic just isn't there.
From my understanding...
If my dump valve happens to dump air into a Versatube somewhere on my robot because its mounted near that, I guess that's part of the pnuematics system now?

Introducing the new VEX Versatube with new PNEUMATIC Features!

What about the 2013 blocker I remember 116 having at IRI?

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

To be fair, I wouldn't make the assumption that a device added specifically for an off-season event that doesn't have an inspection process is legal.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

869 ran one in-season during 2013. It was deemed legal after being added for elims at TCNJ (after being red carded for failing to get it re-inspected). I don't recall if they continued to run it during their later 2013 events.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

This blocker was built by 118 to add to a 3rd robot at champs. With 4039's help we installed it on their robot and passed supplemental inspection. It was planned for use in the division finals against full court shooters (until the eventual champions knocked us out.). It finally got to see some use at IRI.

This was an off the shelf fan, with model airplane propellers, run by a 775, inflating a custom sewn bag. I never would have called this a pneumatic device and it was never questioned as such.

During this year’s brainstorming, this blocker was brought up as possible way to deliver a hook to the bar. I honestly didn’t foresee it working, and love that 4060 pulled it off… it brought an immediate smile to my face when I saw the video. Great job.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

This was definitely one of the fastest climbers I've seen in person, very impressive!

At Idaho, did you modify the climb to avoid going outside the 15" beyond the frame perimeter? I remember talking with your mentor Rob about a few ideas to ensure the hang is legal at all points of the climb. You can see what I mean around 0:24 in the video you linked, when the bot tips and grappling claw is extending beyond the 15" limit.

Congrats on the extremely strong showing at Idaho, your boulder scores were through the roof! Unfortunately, there's no match video from Idaho yet, I want to watch your performance!

-Mike

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

This is just friggin brilliant. The concerns on pneumatics is compressed gas. This has very little energy and I would be surprised to see a judge pull the plug. One lesson most successful team have learned is push the rules to the limits. I'm sure the Cheesy Poof mentor is saying the same thing I am, "why didn't we do this?" This is extremely clever. I can see all kinds of cool cheese cake solutions here... Climbing and defense. I may have our kids cheese cake some air blown curtains for defense at Championships.

If I was a judge, I'd give these guys an engineer in excellence award for their creativity. Bravo!!!

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Here is what OSHA says... Compressed gas is anything over 40 psi. I seriously doubt if they got over 10 psi.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAZMAT_Class_2_Gases

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Half correct. Robot Inspectors (Yellow hat people) and Referees (Zebra stripey people) (And I suppose to an extent Safety Advisors (What do they wear now a days? Red? Green?)) are the ones that would be able to pull the plug. But you are correct that judges can award Excellence in Engineering / Creativity / Industrial Design awards.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I seriously doubt they got over .1 psi.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

The strongest axial fan that EBM Pabst makes produces a maximum back pressure of 310 Pa = 0.044 PSI = 0.00306 Atm. It is not FRC legal (24.7" dia., 52.6 lb, requires 277 Vac @ 8.18 A). At work, we measure the effectiveness of the cooling fans installed in our equipment using an anemometer not a pressure meter.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I love (but really hate) how this thread has derailed from the coolest climbing mechanisms to banter over one guy's pedantic ridiculousness. If we really want to get into math and definitions from a dictionary in the name of legality, shouldn't we start a new thread? There are 2 weeks of new mechanisms yet to debut and I'd love for them to have a home to chit-chat about.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Slight derail, but it is interesting to hear that this kind of cheesecake is what my team might have been up against if things played out differently in those elimination matches.

Love the climber on 4060, reminds me of the roll up party favor whistles.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Not to take anything away from 4060, but this isn't even the first inflatable hanging mechanism deemed legal in FRC. 69 in 2010 added an inflatable hanger for the Boston Regional that year, and used it to hang somewhat consistently and seed high. This continues to demonstrate the long history of these devices not being considered pneumatic devices.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Please stop talking about this, it's pretty clear there are differing opinions on the subject and the team in question can take whatever they want from it.
I didn't know of many cool climber mechanisms so I clicked on this thread, only to find that it's just a giant argument over one team's climber (which was really cool btw).

I am a little surprised no climber has been cheesecaked yet, although I could be wrong.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

I apologize for stating my opinion as fact... I never intended to do so, nor to cause any uproars... I am a friend of logic, and when I state my opinion it often transgresses into a logical statement (in my mind) and therefore comes into existence as written fact, be it direct or determined. i hope i didn't rustle too many feathers

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

No.

Starting one.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

See also 773 in 2004. They had a giant inflatable cucumber (since they were the Kingsville Kukes, get it?) to float a hook up to the bar.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

Searched for a video and came ever so close since someone from 48 filmed a few matches from that event. May search some more tonight.

Re: Interesting/Cool Scaling Mechanism Designs
 

We had prototyped one of these a while ago and it worked really wel, just not enough space in the bot. to get around the rules of inflating it ours did not get hooked into the pneumatic system, but instead a bag motor on a leaf blower impeller. worked great.