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-   -   Are Fans Pneumatic Devices? (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146747)

bkahl 06-04-2016 12:36

Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1568312)
I love (but really hate) how this thread has derailed from the coolest climbing mechanisms to banter over one guy's pedantic ridiculousness. If we really want to get into math and definitions from a dictionary in the name of legality, shouldn't we start a new thread?

Here we are.

Let's Discuss!

Is 4060's Hook Deployment Mechanism Illegal?

Please try to present opinions with rules from the 2016 FRC Game Manual (Preferably in American English?)

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 12:37

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
No.

bkahl 06-04-2016 12:38

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1568514)
No.


notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 12:39

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568517)


who716 06-04-2016 12:47

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
I'm all for it I don't see anything at all in the rules that would hint at it being illegal in anyway, and on top of it passed inspection once and will most likely pass inspection again if it goes to another event. A+ for the creativity aspect to it

CalTran 06-04-2016 12:55

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by who716 (Post 1568528)
I'm all for it I don't see anything at all in the rules that would hint at it being illegal in anyway, and on top of it passed inspection once and will most likely pass inspection again if it goes to another event. A+ for the creativity aspect to it

Passing inspection at one place doesn't necessarily mean it'll pass again. You'd be surprised at what slips through the cracks.

Ty Tremblay 06-04-2016 12:56

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1568514)
No.

Next question.

s_forbes 06-04-2016 12:58

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
I wonder if our prototype mechanism for opening the sally port would have been considered a pneumatic device?


notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 12:59

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by s_forbes (Post 1568540)
I wonder if our prototype mechanism for opening the sally port would have been considered a pneumatic device?


That's a pretty crappy pneumatic device.

bkahl 06-04-2016 13:02

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1568538)
Next question.

Are 775's Pneumatic Devices?

Their fans move air!

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:04

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568547)
Are 775's Pneumatic Devices?

Their fans move air!

Look, a bunch of pneumatic devices showed up to this concert!

Ty Tremblay 06-04-2016 13:04

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568547)
Are 775's Pneumatic Devices?

Their fans move air!




Also:
Quote:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to notmattlythgoe again.

JesseK 06-04-2016 13:04

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Using some of the definitions in the other thread, every robot on the field uses a pneumatic device to get around: the drive train (hereafter known as "device"). It sounds crazy, but hear me out!

Motors propel the device in such a way to create a high-pressure side and a low pressure side, wherein air on the high pressure side imparts a non-trivial force onto the robot and the surrounding objects. Conversely, high-speed robots can use this device to intentionally create a higher-than-normal pressure situation on the leading edge of the device, which could then be used as an interference mechanism for any lightweight objects nearby - objects comprising of but not limited to:
  • 4060's latching mechanism
  • Paper airplanes on Einstein
  • The hair that belongs to referees
:rolleyes:

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:07

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Is this a pneumatic device?


Scott Kozutsky 06-04-2016 13:08

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
As I recall, if your pneumatic systems remain under a certain pressure you don't need any lisence or regulation for safety (for things like baloons or other similar low pressure things, I forget the specific threshold and may be wrong). These baloons are therefore legal as they meet all relevant safety standards. Using fans might not be so legal because it can surely pump more than 1.10CFM and would therefore be an illegal compressor.

This is also the first year pneumatic tires have been "legal" without the rest of the pneumatic control system, as there is now a specific exemption. No one cared in previous years despite being illegal by the rigid, literal interpretation of the rules. W tread Versawheels are illegal per R6 but noone will call that either.

There are likely other ways to interpret the rules that will shift "legality" one way or the other. Regardless, I can't imagine an inspector calling any team out on this particular system.

Chris is me 06-04-2016 13:10

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Kozutsky (Post 1568560)
This is also the first year pneumatic tires have been "legal" without the rest of the pneumatic control system, as there is now a specific exemption. No one cared in previous years despite being illegal by the rigid, literal interpretation of the rules. W tread Versawheels are illegal per R6 but noone will call that either.

Specific exemptions for pneumatic wheels have been listed in the rules before. Off the top of my head, they were in 2012, but also other years.

Ty Tremblay 06-04-2016 13:10

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1568555)
Using some of the definitions in the other thread, every robot on the field uses a pneumatic device to get around: the drive train (hereafter known as "device"). It sounds crazy, but hear me out!

Motors propel the device in such a way to create a high-pressure side and a low pressure side, wherein air on the high pressure side imparts a non-trivial force onto the robot and the surrounding objects. Conversely, high-speed robots can use this device to intentionally create a higher-than-normal pressure situation on the leading edge of the device, which could then be used as an interference mechanism for any lightweight objects nearby - objects comprising of but not limited to:
  • 4060's latching mechanism
  • Paper airplanes on Einstein
  • The hair that belongs to referees
:rolleyes:

So you're saying we can make the hovervan? Please tell me we can make the hovervan.


bkahl 06-04-2016 13:13

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1568566)
So you're saying we can make the hovervan? Please tell me we can make the hovervan.



We can make the Hover Van.

JesseK 06-04-2016 13:14

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1568566)
So you're saying we can make the hovervan? Please tell me we can make the hovervan.

You kid... Hmm. What is the theoretical maximum force that high-strength propellers can impart within a 30"x30" frame? Would probably be 12" propellers for a competitive robot, given the probable frame needs. Was never very good with fluid dynamics. I wonder if they could lift 20 lbs up about 30 inches in 10 seconds using our battery.

Then we would add a shell in the shape of a van to the top of the device. And yes, you would get your hovervan, paint job and all :D

CalTran 06-04-2016 13:14

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Kozutsky (Post 1568560)
As I recall, if your pneumatic systems remain under a certain pressure you don't need any lisence or regulation for safety

Rule?

Quote:

W tread Versawheels are illegal per R6 but noone will call that either.
I don't follow?
Quote:

Originally Posted by R6
Traction devices must not have surface features such as metal, sandpaper, hard plastic studs, cleats, hook-loop fasteners, or similar attachments that could damage the ARENA. Traction devices include all parts of the ROBOT that are designed to transmit any propulsive and/or braking forces between the ROBOT and FIELD carpet.


notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:15

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
If a team is really really bad does that make them a pneumatic device because they suck?

bkahl 06-04-2016 13:16

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to notmattlythgoe again.
:(

rsisk 06-04-2016 13:17

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Serious question....

The fan is not a pneumatic device
but the tube being filled with air is

right?

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:18

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1568578)
Serious question....

The fan is not a pneumatic device
but the tube being filled with air is

right?

No. The pressure would be too low and if the fan is turned off the pressure is lost.

PayneTrain 06-04-2016 13:19

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1568574)
If a team is really really bad does that make them a pneumatic device because they suck?

Yes.

Source: we suck so much were not even making elims this weekend :(

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:20

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568583)
Yes.

Source: we suck so much were not even making elims this weekend :(

FRC422 The Mech Tech Pneumatic Devices

Ty Tremblay 06-04-2016 13:22

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568583)
Yes.

Source: we suck so much were not even making elims this weekend :(


PayneTrain 06-04-2016 13:22

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
You think that would fit in the prematch screen?

Andrew Schreiber 06-04-2016 13:23

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
This thread blows...

Sperkowsky 06-04-2016 13:23

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Obviously fans are pneumatic devices. The definition of pneumatic is of or relating to air, gases, or wind.

The definition of fans is any device for producing a current of air by the movement of a broad surface or a number of such surfaces.

I see a relation.

/sarcasm

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:23

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568594)
You think that would fit in the prematch screen?

Better than the tab character you put in your team name ;)

bkahl 06-04-2016 13:24

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1568598)
Obviously fans are pneumatic devices. The definition of pneumatic is of or relating to air, gases, or wind.

The definition of fans is any device for producing a current of air by the movement of a broad surface or a number of such surfaces.

I see a relation.

/sarcasm

Exactly. Yankees fans are Airheads.

PayneTrain 06-04-2016 13:24

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1568599)
Better than the tab character you put in your team name ;)

It was the dragon emoji, I swear it worked on my end.

Thad House 06-04-2016 13:24

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1568596)
This thread blows...

If we are using absolutes, this thread could be sucking too...

tr6scott 06-04-2016 13:25

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
This thread reminds me of our defensive fan development for 2013...
I am still not doing a very good job....
https://youtu.be/9lj7asPtflY

Sperkowsky 06-04-2016 13:25

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568600)
Exactly. Yankees fans are Airheads.

And airheads are clearly pneumatic devices.

Thad House 06-04-2016 13:26

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568600)
Exactly. Yankees fans are Airheads.

If the Yankees could steal the Mariners suck that would be great...

Scott Kozutsky 06-04-2016 13:26

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CalTran (Post 1568573)
Rule?

This is an engineering regulation, not specifically first. IIRC pneumatic systems don't need certification if they operate below 15PSI. (I was googling around and can't find a source, my value could also be wrong).

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalTran (Post 1568573)
I don't follow?

R6
Traction devices must not have surface features such as ... hard plastic studs, cleats...

W tread versawheels are hard plastic, and have what could be described as studs and/or cleats. This was tangential to my point. It was an example of "illegal but not going to be called".

FrankJ 06-04-2016 13:27

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
I am thinking it must be a slow day in Chief Delphi land.

Fans were used in Lunacy to help push robots around.

pmangels17 06-04-2016 13:28

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad House (Post 1568609)
If the Yankees could steal the Mariners suck that would be great...

As if the NYY opening day wasn't already a disappointment... :(

EmileH 06-04-2016 13:32

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1568596)
This thread blows...

Thus, using prior logic, this thread must be, in essence, a pneumatic device.

Andrew Schreiber 06-04-2016 13:33

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmangels17 (Post 1568618)
As if the NYY opening day wasn't already a disappointment... :(

Hey Red Sox opening day was a disappointment for me too[1]. I know that feel.



[1] Sox fans are obnoxious enough without a win.

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:33

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EmileH (Post 1568624)
Thus, using prior logic, this thread must be, in essence, a pneumatic device.


JesseK 06-04-2016 13:33

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1568578)
Serious question....

The fan is not a pneumatic device
but the tube being filled with air is

right?

The full explanation of "pneumatic device" leads to the a definition where a machine uses compressed air to do work.

I think the attempted "discussion" was more about whether it is worth $188 or more to measure the air inside the tube in order to determine if the smidgen of increase in pressure due to the fan even registers on the tool (which has a margin of error of a lot) that may then be used to say that this particular device generates more compressed air (that is accurately measurable) than any of its other "devices" through normal play.

It's pedantic and demeaning to the team which took the idea from concept through to to a working point-scoring mechanism.

philso 06-04-2016 13:35

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568583)
Yes.

Source: we suck so much were not even making elims this weekend :(

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1568598)
Obviously fans are pneumatic devices. The definition of pneumatic is of or relating to air, gases, or wind.

We will do our best to not become pneumatic devices this weekend. It may be necessary to carefully control the diet of our team members :D

CalTran 06-04-2016 13:36

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott Kozutsky (Post 1568610)
R6
Traction devices must not have surface features such as ... hard plastic studs, cleats...that could damage the ARENA.

W tread versawheels are hard plastic, and have what could be described as studs and/or cleats. .

Added the rest of the rule with emphasis. Barring catastrophic failure (ie. getting caught on a defense and grinding the wheel into the carpet) I don't see the tread falling under R6.

E Dawg 06-04-2016 13:41

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
The thread created because another thread was derailed has been derailed. Or should I say de-air-ailed?

JesseK 06-04-2016 13:46

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyssa (Post 1568646)
...

It's cool, we needed a place to vent without further tangents in what was initially a really nice thread. Probably just ignore most of the stuff in this thread (though even still there are a couple of gems of info-based interpretation).

bkahl 06-04-2016 13:47

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1568648)
It's cool, we needed a place to vent

Sounds like a pneumatic device....

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 13:49

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568650)
Sounds like a pneumatic device....


JesseK 06-04-2016 13:50

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568650)
Sounds like a pneumatic device....

No no no no no, :ahh:

I completely didn't mean to do that...

Alyssa 06-04-2016 13:51

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Bailey, I love you, why would you start this...

bkahl 06-04-2016 13:53

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyssa (Post 1568656)
Bailey, I love you, why would you start this...


Alyssa 06-04-2016 13:53

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1568648)
It's cool, we needed a place to vent without further tangents in what was initially a really nice thread. Probably just ignore most of the stuff in this thread (though even still there are a couple of gems of info-based interpretation).

Venting air is always a good thing 😉

bkahl 06-04-2016 13:54

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alyssa (Post 1568658)
Venting air is always a good thing 😉

Especially at the end of every match!

Scott Kozutsky 06-04-2016 13:59

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by CalTran (Post 1568634)
Added the rest of the rule with emphasis. Barring catastrophic failure (ie. getting caught on a defense and grinding the wheel into the carpet) I don't see the tread falling under R6.

It's semantics I know, but technically any wheel damages the carpet by regular driving. Then the discussion is "what is significant enough to consider" and we're basically back where we started, rules interpretation. I wouldn't call a team out for using versawheels as an inspector.

Chief Hedgehog 06-04-2016 14:03

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Welp, we finally reached that point of the season. Everyone has gone mad.

JesseK 06-04-2016 14:08

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog (Post 1568669)
Welp, we finally reached that point of the season. Everyone has gone mad.

Not quite yet. My team is trying to figure out what is this year's functional equivalent of the Simbot's breathtaking Supersonic Harpoon. If we find it, then we may have gone mad in the process.

techhelpbb 06-04-2016 14:11

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
This topic is blown all out of proportion.
It seems you are all at the point of over pressure.
So you just need some release or valve to dump that pressure.
I will reserve any further comment and hope the topic tanks.

:p

Sanity is overrated: open your mind to the possibilities.

WCBC 06-04-2016 14:15

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Are all the airheads in California pneumatic devices?

Ty Tremblay 06-04-2016 14:16

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by WCBC (Post 1568677)
Are all the airheads in California pneumatic devices?

This just in:

Cheesy Poofs illegal?

PayneTrain 06-04-2016 14:18

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay (Post 1568678)
This just in:

Cheesy Poofs illegal?

They should be, along with every other mentor built robot

Andrew Schreiber 06-04-2016 14:24

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568681)
They should be, along with every other mentor built robot

Them's fighting words Wil.

Novelty Sumo Suits on Einstein at dawn Saturday of CMP? Wait, crap those are pneumatic devices... nvm.

bkahl 06-04-2016 14:26

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1568685)
Them's fighting words Wil.

Novelty Sumo Suits on Einstein at dawn Saturday of CMP? Wait, crap those are pneumatic devices... nvm.


JesseK 06-04-2016 14:26

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568681)
They should be, along with every other mentor built robot

If you take a look through Pat Fairbank's photo album (in his signature), you may think differently of the Poofs. The way they work is a pretty good model of taking the concept of an apprenticeship into the world of high school extra-curricular activities.

PayneTrain 06-04-2016 14:32

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1568687)
If you take a look through Pat Fairbank's photo album (in his signature), you may think differently of the Poofs. The way they work is a pretty good model of taking the concept of an apprenticeship into the world of high school extra-curricular activities.


Moment of silence for the first time I've been taken seriously on this board in years.

notmattlythgoe 06-04-2016 14:36

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568689)
Moment of silence for the first time I've been taken seriously on this board in years.


EmileH 06-04-2016 14:36

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Based on, again, prior logic, does not any object that moves on this earth become a compressor? Think about it - those objects, when moving, can move painfully small amounts of air, an action that could be misinterpreted as compressing air. Everybody, next year's game will only be software - no moving parts.
#programmersonly
/unreasonability

bkahl 06-04-2016 14:38

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1568687)
If you take a look through Pat Fairbank's photo album (in his signature), you may think differently of the Poofs. The way they work is a pretty good model of taking the concept of an apprenticeship into the world of high school extra-curricular activities.


JesseK 06-04-2016 14:41

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568689)
Moment of silence for the first time I've been taken seriously on this board in years.

But, but, but ... this is how everyone defends mentor-led teams, right?

Lil' Lavery 06-04-2016 14:44

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1568689)
Moment of silence for the first time I've been taken seriously on this board in years.

There are plenty of people who don't visit CD regularly enough to understand the personas that people adopt, and who wouldn't get your sarcasm. I know I'm being a wet blanket, but do think of how the students, parents, and sponsors who lurk this board would interpret posts. This isn't solely directed at Wil, either.


In other news, to get with the tone of this thread:


saikiranra 06-04-2016 14:47

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568694)


Is that fan a pneumatic device?

PayneTrain 06-04-2016 14:47

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Don't worry Sean, you're here just in time.

Gregor 06-04-2016 14:49

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1568703)
There are plenty of people who don't visit CD regularly enough to understand the personas that people adopt, and who wouldn't get your sarcasm. I know I'm being a wet blanket, but do think of how the students, parents, and sponsors who lurk this board would interpret posts. This isn't solely directed at Wil, either.


Lil' Lavery 06-04-2016 14:51

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1568709)

Would you care to elaborate?

bkahl 06-04-2016 14:51

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1568710)
Would you care to elaborate?

Yeah, lets get some decent discussion going up in here.

JesseK 06-04-2016 14:53

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568711)
Yeah, lets get some decent discussion going up in here.

Sure! Serious reading about something related to all of the animated GIFs we've made in this thread: In the Future, We Will Photograph Everything and Look at Nothing

PayneTrain 06-04-2016 14:55

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568711)
Yeah, lets get some decent discussion going up in here.

I sure hope so; troll posts drive people away from CD, and keep certain parties out of relevant discussions

Thad House 06-04-2016 14:56

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery (Post 1568710)
Would you care to elaborate?


Woolly 06-04-2016 14:58

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Is mayonnaise a pneumatic device?

Gregor 06-04-2016 14:58

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 

EmileH 06-04-2016 15:03

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
/thread

techhelpbb 06-04-2016 15:09

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
There are such things as pneumatic fans.
I am not kidding.

They are explosion proof.

Google not for the animated GIF but for knowledge of how not to go boom in a room of combustible vapor.

BBray_T1296 06-04-2016 15:14

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by techhelpbb (Post 1568725)
There are such things as pneumatic fans.
I am not kidding.

They are explosion proof.

Would it, or would it not be legal? Maybe both?

Knufire 06-04-2016 15:16

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
How much air does a bench grinder move?

martin417 06-04-2016 15:19

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by BBray_T1296 (Post 1568728)
Would it, or would it not be legal? Maybe both?

A pneumatic (air powered) motor is not on the list of approved pneumatic devices.

techhelpbb 06-04-2016 15:31

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martin417 (Post 1568733)
A pneumatic (air powered) motor is not on the list of approved pneumatic devices.

In 2007 they had these:

Quote:

Rotary Actuator
Bimba is again offering you a rotary actuator. This is ideal for grippers, gear shifters, brakes etc. If you choose to
use one of these you will only be allowed to order 2 free cylinders instead of three. As with the cylinders, you may
order a magnetic piston, which will activate the switches when the piston is directly underneath the switch. The
rotational tolerance of the unit is 90 degrees –0 degrees +15 degrees. Exact angle adjustment should be made with
external stops. The theoretical torque of this actuator is 0.166 inch-lbs/PSI. Using the maximum allowed pressure of
60 psi the unit could develop a theoretical torque of almost 10 inch-lbs.
Also it's possible to convert linear motion to rotary.
So one could convert those linear cylinder movements to rotary movement.
Anyone see a rule to prohibit converting linear cylinder movement to rotary?

martin417 06-04-2016 15:41

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by techhelpbb (Post 1568738)
In 2007 they had these:



Also it's possible to convert linear motion to rotary.
So one could convert those linear cylinder movements to rotary movement.
Anyone see a rule to prohibit converting linear cylinder movement to rotary?

I don't think there is any rule prohibiting such a device, but the fan in question has an air powered vane motor, a true pneumatic device in its own right, and not on the list of allowed pneumatic devices.

techhelpbb 06-04-2016 15:44

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martin417 (Post 1568746)
I don't think there is any rule prohibiting such a device, but the fan in question has an air powered vane motor, a true pneumatic device in its own right, and not on the list of allowed pneumatic devices.

Where I come from we call that: opportunity :cool:

Here's my loco motive.
At 125MPH now we need a FIRST sized pnuematic version :D

GreyingJay 06-04-2016 18:15

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolly (Post 1568717)
Is mayonnaise a pneumatic device?

:confused: Because it's fluffy and airy?

EmileH 06-04-2016 18:25

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolly (Post 1568717)
Is mayonnaise a pneumatic device?

For those who don't get the joke

Andrew Schreiber 06-04-2016 18:45

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EmileH (Post 1568826)

Is Spongebob a pneumatic device?

GeeTwo 07-04-2016 00:13

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rsisk (Post 1568578)
Serious question....

The fan is not a pneumatic device
but the tube being filled with air is

right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1568581)
No. The pressure would be too low and if the fan is turned off the pressure is lost.

My router died, so I've been offline for about a day, which is probably for the best. To amplify a bit on my last post in the other thread, I said essentially that I shall assume that the manuals are written in American English except where the GDC defines otherwise. This is exactly what I meant; when a word means something different in the US than abroad, the folks on the GDC meant the US description (e.g. gas torch means a device which projects flame powered by gas, not a gas lamp). The GDC regularly re-defines terms through the glossary and inline definitions (examples: those things on the front and back of my car are not BUMPERS, and the BATTER is not someone who bats, nor a substance which is beaten, nor a really high slope area around a tower used to redirect dropped items horizontally, but the low-slope area around the TOWER on an FRC field).

Pneumatic (leaving out descriptions of people) generally means "containing or working by compressed air". The game manual expressly excludes (via R77L) pneumatic tires (which usually do not do work beyond acting as springs), vacuum-producing devices (which can be argued as non-pneumatic according to the general definition as they work on the difference between ambient and rarefied air), and closed-loop shocks (which act as springs) as pneumatic devices. It does not expressly exclude fans, radial flow pumps, axial flow pumps, gravity pumps, or impedance pumps. If any of these devices create compressed air that does work (and there is no minimum PSI limit defined by the GDC for compressed air), then by the normal definition of pneumatic in the English language, I consider them to be pneumatic devices -- until and unless the GDC rules otherwise.

For the record - I am not trying to tear down any team that is using fans as pneumatic devices, just giving a warning that until/unless you get a solid ruling from the GDC that what you are doing is somehow an exception to the pneumatics rules, you may find your creative solution shut down at your next event.

Mr V 07-04-2016 02:46

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by who716 (Post 1568528)
I'm all for it I don't see anything at all in the rules that would hint at it being illegal in anyway, and on top of it passed inspection once and will most likely pass inspection again if it goes to another event. A+ for the creativity aspect to it

Unfortunately despite their great showing at Auburn thanks in part to their scaling device in question, they did not qualify for the PNW DCMP and have thus ended their season

Quote:

Originally Posted by CalTran (Post 1568537)
Passing inspection at one place doesn't necessarily mean it'll pass again. You'd be surprised at what slips through the cracks.

Yes you would be surprised what slips by just for example at inspections at the PNW DCMP this evening a more observant inspector noticed a RS540 motor on a robot that had passed inspection 3 times this season.

However in this case more than one inspector including the LRI at the Auburn event took a look at their wind sock and we all agreed that it was legal and it certainly would have passed had they moved on to DCMP.

Chris is me 07-04-2016 09:16

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GeeTwo (Post 1568994)
Pneumatic (leaving out descriptions of people) generally means "containing or working by compressed air". The game manual expressly excludes (via R77L) pneumatic tires (which usually do not do work beyond acting as springs), vacuum-producing devices (which can be argued as non-pneumatic according to the general definition as they work on the difference between ambient and rarefied air), and closed-loop shocks (which act as springs) as pneumatic devices. It does not expressly exclude fans, radial flow pumps, axial flow pumps, gravity pumps, or impedance pumps. If any of these devices create compressed air that does work (and there is no minimum PSI limit defined by the GDC for compressed air), then by the normal definition of pneumatic in the English language, I consider them to be pneumatic devices -- until and unless the GDC rules otherwise.

You're not really addressing the points people are bringing up here - "compressed air that does work" isn't really being created here. Air isn't being compressed - it's flowing. This air is pushing outward as it is flowing through a somewhat constricted opening, but it is not really being compressed. If you are really saying "there is no minimum PSI limit" and that literally any change in air pressure constitutes a pneumatic device, then this would apply to any fan (including those integral to motors / speed controllers), spoked wheel (flywheel shooters move a LOT of air around), etc. Such an absolutist position is just ridiculous.

techhelpbb 07-04-2016 09:57

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1569084)
You're not really addressing the points people are bringing up here - "compressed air that does work" isn't really being created here. Air isn't being compressed - it's flowing. This air is pushing outward as it is flowing through a somewhat constricted opening, but it is not really being compressed. If you are really saying "there is no minimum PSI limit" and that literally any change in air pressure constitutes a pneumatic device, then this would apply to any fan (including those integral to motors / speed controllers), spoked wheel (flywheel shooters move a LOT of air around), etc. Such an absolutist position is just ridiculous.

If the whole robot drives into a tube with a flap at the other end, it would, for a split second increase the air pressure in the tube.
So is the whole robot a pneumatic device?

TheModMaster8 07-04-2016 12:56

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1568547)
Are 775's Pneumatic Devices?

Their fans move air!

Your robot moves air as it drives.

IKE 07-04-2016 14:24

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
*Trigger warning, may include some satire/sarcasm
I don't really see any issue with the fan. Now the wind bag (what I like to call the device catching said air) may be a different story. Can someone ask the GDC if Wind Bags are legal? I don't have direct access via Q&A. Here is some sample wording:

On CD, I came across a lot of posts about Fans and Wind Bags. While fans seem perfectly legal, wouldn't the Wind Bags referenced on CD be illegal? With all the attention they are getting, I am afraid that those that follow CD might cause the Wind Bags to multiply. It could get bad enough that most teams at the championship might have a Wind Bag. If wind Bags are legal, then carry on...**


*Just so anyone that is not a regular know this is mostly sarcastic
**Added so that anyone reading this post realizes that this post is mostly satire.

martin417 07-04-2016 14:51

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IKE (Post 1569226)
*Trigger warning, may include some satire/sarcasm
I don't really see any issue with the fan. Now the wind bag (what I like to call the device catching said air) may be a different story. Can someone ask the GDC if Wind Bags are legal? I don't have direct access via Q&A. Here is some sample wording:

On CD, I came across a lot of posts about Fans and Wind Bags. While fans seem perfectly legal, wouldn't the Wind Bags referenced on CD be illegal? With all the attention they are getting, I am afraid that those that follow CD might cause the Wind Bags to multiply. It could get bad enough that most teams at the championship might have a Wind Bag. If wind Bags are legal, then carry on...**

*Just so anyone that is not a regular know this is mostly sarcastic
**Added so that anyone reading this post realizes that this post is mostly satire.


As a windbag myself, I resemble that remark.

E Dawg 07-04-2016 14:53

Re: Are Fans Pneumatic Devices?
 
Who needs a bag of winds? Just use David Hasselhoff as your human player.


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