Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

What capabilities does a robot need to have in order to ensure they are picked to an alliance at champs? I suppose being a third or fourth robot doesn't really matter as it's highly likely that most 4th robots will see the field due to the nature of Stronghold.

What are teams looking for in a 3rd and 4th alliance member?

• Consistent auton that puts a ball in the tower, high or low
• Penalty free
• Does their task at a high level

What else? What's a high level?

Another question as well, can a defense-dedicated robot be selected, or does it make more sense to take the top available scoring machine and cheesecake on a blocker? How about a defense robot with a scoring autonomous mode and a climber?

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

The one thing I'll point out is in regards to your comment about "highly likely most 4th robots will see the field".

Yes, Stronghold is a brutal, brutal game. Yes, I've seen a ton of posts on Chief Delphi from people warning to tighten all your bolts, check all your electrical connections, bring spares of everything.

"Because you WILL break down", I've seen said.

But I'll counter with this: it's very possible to build a robot that can withstand the rigors of this game. It's absolutely prudent to be prepared, of course, but I wouldn't go in expecting that everyone else will break down. Many teams didn't, and going into Champs I expect that proportion will be even higher.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

A robot that:

1) Does not get stuck on Defenses
2) Does not have connection problems
3) Does not break down (performs reliably)
4) Does not tip easily
5) Good driver
6) Round out defense crossing abilities

The Alliance captain could be looking for a 3rd shooter, and a Defender for the 3rd and 4th robot. A 3rd shooter that can also play defense would be a good choice. If you have 2 of those (defense capable, but not necessarily defense only) gives the alliance the most options.

Scoring (crossing) during Autonomous is a requirement. Shooting during autonomous and climbing would be a reason to pick your bot over another defense bot that could not.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

At the Wisconsin Regional, no backup bots were called up for service. Although, our 3rd alliance partner did break it's frame playing defense. It was able to be patched and continued to play.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

a good reliable defender that has a scaler will not be left unpicked

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

#1 Get on the Batter

#2 Don't roll off the Batter.

If you don't get on or roll off the batter (even just once) you will probably fall way down the pick list.

IMO this is the biggest responsibility of the 3rd or 4th robot. It's 30 points lost if you roll off or don't get on.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Did you mean that 3rd and 4th alliance members score a boulder autonomously? Or that the team has a consistent autonomous mode, and also puts boulders in the tower during teleop?

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Most divisions won't have anyone who can score a ball in auto by the 2nd or 3rd round (or at least they shouldn't if there are competent scouts). The biggest things are to easily be able to traverse the field, get on the batter, never break down, and have smart drivers. A scaler or good shooter is extra.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

1) Cross at least two classes of defenses reliably in autonomous
2) Score a ball, ideally in auton, but if not, then quickly at the beginning of the match
3) Speedy drivetrain
4) Intelligent, penalty-free driving
5) Consistency in whatever you do

Other things (like an effective intake, ability to scale) are all bonuses, but those five requirements seem like the most important things alliance captains will be looking for at Championship.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

More than anything else, captains are going to want teams that get to the batter at the end of every match. This means avoiding teams that break down, get stuck on defenses, suffer frequent radio or roboRio reboots, or who simply roll off the batter or get stuck on the batter dividers too frequently.

There will be multiple avenues to distinguish yourself from other competitors. However, if you fail at challenging consistently, most captains will cross you off their lists right away.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

I meant scoring a boulder autonomously. I think I'm overestimating the number of teams with this ability.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

You definitely are. Keep in mind the divisions divide talent. If you look at some of the teams picked late last year at champs, there are some that can't do much of anything after can burglars, and some who can do a lot more than expected. This is due to division strength and scouts doing their jobs. So will someone who can score an auto be around that late? Depends on if there is a strong division where someone slips through.

Another thing to keep in mind is many of the ball scorers use the low bar, which can make a team not very useful if there auto conflicts with someone else's.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

i predict the winning alliance on Einstein will be composed of:

captain : 2 ball auto/ low bar capable high goal cycler
1st pick : 1 ball auto/ scaler, scores high goals while breaching
2nd pick : crosses in auto, or scores as a spy, can score low (maybe high) and play good defense
3rd pick: good defender, can cross in auto

2 robots in the alliance will be able to scale, maybe one with some cheesecake

Of course i'd love to be wrong ;)

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

From watching the webcasts, I'd argue that the most important thing for a 3rd or 4th robot is having a competent, capable drive team, and performing reliably and consistently. Any robot/team that is picked in the later rounds will probably have to adapt their usual game plan to fit their alliance (as will every robot). A skilled drive team will be able to quickly learn the alliance's strategy, consistently execute that strategy, and change it on the fly, mid-match, when something inevitably doesn't go according to plan. The converse of this is also true. This is no different than any other year in this regard, and though having extraordinarily capable robots is a wonderful thing, the only way to get the most from your machine is to have skillful students at the helm that, along with a smart coach, can work with any alliance to achieve success on the field. The high seeding teams (almost always, and especially at championships), will already have this trait in their drive teams, but selecting teams that also have fantastic drivers is critical to any alliance's success.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Addendum: this will be especially important on this year's seemingly crowded field.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

If we were to end up captaining an alliance in our division, I'd pick teams in the following order:
1st pick: 254,1241,987,best unblockable outerworks shooter.
2nd pick: Best high goal shooter available. Doesnt matter if they are defendable.
3rd pick: Best low goal robot available that has good drivers.

The reason for the 3rd pick is to play defense and feed balls to shooter bots crazy fast. 1st and 2nd pick is for triple offense focused play with robots that take turns defense mid match when balls are not readily available. The specific teams I listed in the first pick are there to force defense to be played on them making it 2.5 shooters vs 2 in a match. The reason the shooters are chosen first is because the weakest one still needs to be able to bring it to the best in case one of the top two break and needs to sit out a match. Of course all this is subject to change depending on teams in our division and what most robots in the division lean towards.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Different alliance captains are going to want different things. But there are some universal traits that all teams will have to get picked at world champs.
1. They have a consistent crossing auto.
2. They do not break down, or get stuck on defenses.
3. They can cross at least two classes of defenses.
4. They have experience with getting and staying on the batter. Meaning they've done it for most if not all of their matches.
5. And most importantly, they have good drivers. If you're the third or fourth robot on an alliance chances are you're playing defense, which means that your driving ability is what will get you higher on most lists.

If you gave the controls of 254's robot over to someone who didn't have any experience with the robot, chances are it would not perform well at all. What makes a team successful in matches (among other things) is the amount of practice a drive team has.

So if your team is consistent, gets on the batter, has a decent auto, and has good drivers, you should have no problem getting picked.

Again these are just my predictions/opinions...

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

What about robots with spy box high goal autonomous routines? It would make more sense to pick one of these because it contributes to the hardest thing to get (capture) and still scores 10 points. As opposed to a robot that has a 10 point crossing autonomous, which is less valuable (IMO) because the breach is going to happen anyway.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

At the extremely competitive level that champs will be played at, I don't think the top teams will have a problem getting 8 balls into the tower, an extra one won't make/break a match. Crossing a defense will be more reliable, and it's what is more achievable for teams around for those picks.
Again, some alliance captains might disagree with my opinion, but I'd take the robot that crosses, because it's probably going to be a safer bet.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Where do you think a robot that could do 6 high goals (none in auto), cross 2 classes of defenses in auto, and scale (no foot print scale) would get picked?

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

If the robot in question does so every match then it will likely be picking.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

What teams will be looking for will depend on seeding. Higher seeded alliances will value reliability over taking chances. However, I think the best 2nd and 3th picks will be robots that can reliably do both of the Cat B defenses (ideally in autonomous), get on the batter, and potentially hang. The Cat B defenses take the longest time to do. It's almost guaranteed either the alliance captain or the first pick will be low bots. Being able to do the drawbridge is nice, but sally door is also nice. Teams are starting to choose the Sally Door over the Drawbridge because visibility is now being valued more than the ability to stop a breach. Breaches are going to happen no matter what you throw out there.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

To this point, the Sally Port is so much easier to "tap" than the drawbridge. 4607 can damage the Sally Port quickly, but the Drawbridge just sucks for everybody.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Anywhere from 1st pick to not picked depending on consistency...

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Yet I've seen a few events where the last picks have scored high autonomously...

I believe that most high seeded alliances at champs will have two powerhouse boulder scorers, and will choose their third robot for defense (the backup might be another scoring bot though). Lower seeds will see a mix of defensive/offensive third robots, but if they choose to play more offense they will have to be able to outgun the two powerhouses while handling defense. My prediction is that most alliances will have a dedicated defense robot, either in the courtyard or the neutral zone.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Another factor that comes into play with regards to the value of a defensive robot is whether the GDC decides to raise the health of the tower. I see it as fairly likely that they bring it up, or else a capture will happen basically every match. If the tower health is raised to the point where 2 strong high goal shooters can't bring it down alone, the value of offensive capabilites in a 3rd robot goes up.

If it's brought up a little bit then a defense robot becomes more valuable since the capture will be preventable. As it stands, a defensive robot, even the best, will have trouble preventing a capture. 3 robots all score during or right after auton and the defense robot now has to prevent 2/3 elite scoring machines from getting 5 boulders into the tower. This is doubtful especially considering how unblockable some teams are.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

I don't see them changing it. And I also don't see a capture happening nearly every Quals match. The average ability of teams is much lower than you're anticipating in my opinion. Watching Quals matches from past years at champs shows lots of teams who fail to do much of anything.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

I went to Champs when there were 4 fields. I keep forgetting there are 8... we were also a rookie team at the time so every team there seemed like they "had it all". I guess you could say it's been too long :p

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

If you don't drive well, you won't get picked. And if you do, your alliance won't get very far. Good driving is important whether you're playing offense or defense, and some offensive robots may need to adapt to a defensive role quickly as eliminations comes around should they find themselves lower ranked than they would like and on an alliance that already has enough firepower in their first two robots.

I strongly recommend teams use the few weeks before champs to polish their driving.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

One other factor on crossing in auto: be able to cross something other than the low bar or rough terrain. Of course crossing the DB or SP would be super cool...

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

One observation: the quality of the second pick robots available at Champs are much higher than at a typical Regional or District event. We've found that we've been able to get bots that were alliance captains or first picks at those events. (i.e., 862, 1640, 1671). That means that we get much better driver quality and bot reliability than we get at Regionals. So look to what those teams do at your local competitions for what to expect from second picks at Champs.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Most of you seem to be posting as if your third robots will be totally incapable of doing anything but defense and challenging. Maybe the events you've attended have had weak third robots, but at the events I attended, there were excellent robots available by the 24th pick, and some that went unpicked. Some examples are:

At TVR:
4203 could score 2-3 high goals in a good match
1450 could cross most defenses and score 2-3 low goals
At FLR:
3951 could score 2-3 low goals and climb
174 could score 2-3 low goals and climb
191 could score 2-3 high goals undefended in a good match

Heck, our 24th robot at FLR could score 4 high goals in teleop and one in auto in a good match. (That was an anomaly though, as 2383 flew under everyone's radar).
I expect that, similar to last year, third and fourth robots will be robots that may have won regionals and districts as high seeds.

My personal priorities for a third robot:
Can cross something in auto that doesn't interfere with my robot and my partner's robot (or shoot a spy bot auto shot)
Can score either a ball in auto or a climb (10 points either way)
Smart Driving and good team players
Can score 4 goals if necessary (low or high- basically a backup in case the other scoring robot is shut down, or we decide to run all-offense)
And being able to challenge is a given.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

I'm seeing a bunch of comments about being able to score boulders in auto being an important trait for alliance picks. It's a cool thing, I grant you, but I just don't think it's that valuable--or common enough to be a prerequisite.

First of all, I've seen only a handful of robots in the entire NC region which even attempt to score a boulder in auto, and perhaps 1 or 2 which can do so reliably. Thinking that there will be more than a few in the top 8 seeds per division seems unrealistic, much less any left for the 2nd round.

Second, the large time investment required to build a reliable auto shooter for an extra 5 points just doesn't seem worth it. Instead, you can just drive over the defenses during auto, hold onto the boulder, and shoot it more accurately immediately after tele-op starts. Fewer points, but more reliable, and you've hardly lost any time to go retrieve another boulder. If you shoot during auto and miss (most do), you get nothing and have to spend a bunch of time tracking down a new rock.

So, for my money, take a fast, accurate tele-op shooter over an auto shooter any day.

/mike

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

Be good at what it is you can do, and don't think you're better than that. also have a good drivetrain so you can play defense.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

The thing is playing defense seems to be so destructive to the opponents who are trying to score that it is almost always worth playing that strategy, especially when the other teams are shooting from the batter. If they shoot from the outer works and cannot be blocked, then I agree it may be better to pile on the offense.

I definitely agree with your priority list though. Just good driving isn't enough, it's important to be contributing points whenever you aren't able to play defense, which would be autonomous and the last 20 seconds.

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

I was going to write up a list, but Kevin has covered all my essentials. I would probably go with a spy bot shot over an autonomous crossing robot. It's still autonomous points, weakens the tower, and isn't as risky with two robots running a 20 or 30 point autonomous routine.

There will be more than 32 robots that can cross in autonomous. That skill won't get you picked.

Ultimately, teams will pick what fits with their strategy and who they trust will perform well. Trust comes through consistent performance or previous team relationships.

David

Re: Capabilities Needed to be Picked at Champs
 

IMO, I'd argue that you might be able to sneak a potential very good high goal shooter (ie 5 or so high goals) as a second pickif you are a lower seeded alliance, such as 6,7,8. This creates a larger possibility for those lower seeded alliances to go much farther and beat the number 1,2,3 alliances by an overall stronger alliance even though the individual robots may not be world class.