Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I define harassment as repeated and targeted, the way the law does. It is possible to still be creepy and have poor manners, but not harassing. Even if they have not been informed they are making someone uncomfortable by the person in question, you should still advise them that they could be making someone uncomfortable.

What I have been explaining is that one should not be embarrassed for something greater than what they actually did. I have been saying that multiple times now.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

My request has nothing to do with whether or not someone was wrong, but rather to avoid future conflict. If someone makes an unreasonable demand that someone change their behavior, it is still advised to act differently, no matter if it is unreasonable and an overreaction. Avoiding conflict you see.
If someone is grossly harassing or offensive, then it becomes a order to stop. I can't do anything myself, but I will bring it to the attention of the head coach.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

How you define something is irrelevant to how you make someone else feel. Your intent does not matter to that person. How that person feels does matter to that person.

If someone feels creeped out or harassed by you, say you are sorry leave them alone. That's all there is to it.

And by "you" I mean the "guy" role in this thread. I'm guessing I quoted the most glaringly ignorant piece of your entire point, so my bad if this is too far out of context.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

You conveniently left out the part where I said that just because it is not harassment does not mean it is a poor thing to do.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Because it's irrelevant to my point. The point is, if someone feels harassed then you're harassing them.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

No. Just because you feel something is true does not make it so. Particularly with a charge of harassment, which is a something that has legislation governing it. You can feel uncomfortable, and ask them to stop. If they persist, this is harassment.

Edit: Apparently someone neglected to read my previous post where I defined harassment as targeted and repeated. They applied negative rep to this post, and commented that harassment can be applied to a single incident. What they neglected to address, intentionally or not, is that I covered that when I said targeted. Targeted means someone specifically targets you.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I feel like I'm running the risk of touching the third rail getting into this but...

Harassment has two definitions, (a third sometimes if a school is involved), the dictionary and legal definition. A quick google search:

Dictionary (From Google search page): Legal: Perhaps this will help you both see each other's arguments from the other's perspective.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

The other poster (and the person who neg rep'ed me) don't seem to be using the definition of violence/intimidation, they seem to be talking about any act that makes someone uncomfortable.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Considering the fact that people are having a difficult time coming to an understanding on what exactly is harassment, I think the most fair (and probably most impractical) would be to have this taken care of in court. Of course the case should be treated as most other criminal law, where the presumption of innocence is maintained, and where it is the responsibility of the accuser to prove that the defendant is guilty.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I am a female student, and I can definitely say that my FRC team has boosted my confidence, communication, and passion for engineering. We primarily have male mentors, and only one third of our team identifies as female, but I have rarely felt ignored or belittled. In fact, this team is the reason why I am pursuing a major in Biomedical Engineering this fall. However, it appears that female students on other teams have faced issues, ones we will face in the STEM workforce. And we do not only face sexual harassment, but also disrespect and being disregarded as less capable.

I recommend discussing the issue head-on with the team during preseason. I remember watching the Verizon advertisement about girls in STEM during a meeting, and the brief discussion we had afterwards. The mentors may not have realized it, but it had a profound impact, and showed me that I would be supported on the team, and I wasn't wrong. I also realized that many male students did not understand that females are discouraged from entering STEM, namely engineering. If every FRC student knew about this issue, we could tackle it more effectively now, and in the future.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Honestly as a team member for Team 2403 Plasma Robotics, our basis of female students have grown along with our male counterparts through all of the outreach and team bonding sessions. With all of this it has allowed us to figure ourselves out better before we make any rash decisions during the rest of the season. Seeing this in action, I see that sometimes we all get awkward or creeped out about someone or something, but that should not deter anyone away from STEM in any way.

I know that much of the women in STEM is weak, but I believe it is growing and it will continue for equality over time. Gender inequality is a shaky topic with some people but we just need to be positive and supportive towards all members, and not bias towards one side or the other. If someone wants to become an engineer, male or female, we need to allow that because in the end that is what they strive for in life!

I keep positive about all of the gender equality progressing and it will continue to get better and better!

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

This is so (seemingly) curmudgeonly nit-picky about what something is or isn't, and yet we aren't trying to prosecute students but rather trying to teach them how to act in ways that do not completely offend someone. After some thought I remembered a particular conversation I had with a student a few years ago. There is a more relate-able definition that provides better evidence for why I believe the strict legal definition doesn't matter in most cases.

Take the HR definition of harassment. Depending on the level of innuendo the first offense can easily be a fireable one. Why? Depending on how the person on the receiving end feels it could become a hostile work environment.

The point you seemed to have missed from what Katie and Amanda were saying is that this "first offense" may be the first for the individual guy for a particular girl, but it is not the first for the girl over the course of the competition or career. Thus, in the context of a workplace (which our FRC programs should be) it is harassment since it is a hostile work environment if the girl on the receiving in feels that way.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I want to use the term harassment appropriately, and not reduce its meaning by using it indiscriminately.
This "HR definition" you speak of is, ironically for you, the literal embodiment of the curmudgeonly legal definition. The reason a single offense could be firable is if it is targeted harassment. You want to wholly redefine harassment by making it be the sum of what one person experiences, not what one person does. Not even this "HR definition" encapsulates the idea that you have.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

This thread is a nightmare of face-saving and overreacting, especially the statement about avoiding women altogether for legal protection (mentally diusturbed mindset).

Summary of good take-aways:

1. Don't hawk your female students, trying to protect them. Keep an equally watchful eye over all team members.

2. LBGT issues should handled according to state law, as mentioned. No exceptions.

3. If a student reports feeling uncomfortable, address it appropriately. Publicly embarrassing offenders for the sake of a "lesson" is not appropriate.

4. If a student makes another student uncomfortable, address it appropriately ("fool-me-twice" policy works well, one warning and one warning only before serious action is taken)

5. It's relatively easy to spot the difference between consensual flirting and creeping. If you can't, consult another mentor before asking a student if they felt threatened.

6. Inter-team relationships will occur but should not be blatant.

7. Students look out for one-another, don't underestimate the power of simply staying in groups.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

While I'm sure you didn't intend it this way, you're requiring the creeper in this instance to be able to read minds.

I would say it's uncommon that the creeper is deliberately attempting to cause discomfort. So it is required by the person feeling harassed to actually make it clear and unambiguous that they don't want that behavior to continue.

It's not fair to say "it should be obvious" because if it is happening, it is probably not obvious to the person causing offense.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

You're right, and I agree, it has to hit that point for the 'aggressor' to understand in any given random off-the-street scenario. The point I was trying to make there is that the 'line' between 'awkward flirting' and 'harassment' is completely about how the person on the receiving end feels, and that person doesn't need to care about the anecdotes from the other side. That the "law" (with quotes because it varies and is imperfect) states a definition does not mean (IMO) it is an acceptable edict to live by, therefore shouldn't even have come up in this conversation.

There is no definition for the circumstances surrounding 'girl who feels harassed by an entire group of peers because she is constantly hit on one at a time by each individual'. The only definitions which come close are patterns of misogyny, sexism and discrimination. For those particular definitions, all but the extreme cases seem to be 'acceptable' behavior by teenage boys and a few people in this thread.

To me, it should be obvious to an 'aggressor' when they've been forewarned to act professionally in an environment. Whether or not someone was listening or chose to forget shouldn't excuse the individual. FIRST constantly puts out "Gracious Professionalism" and the ensuing words of wisdom, yet IMO it is on the team to teach the kids how to act professionally (I've read this paraphrased sentence so many time on CD...). This thread has repeatedly provided anecdotes which show that the definition of what's acceptable in a professional environment varies greatly from team to team.

I think I'll leave this thread for a bit with some final words. In a professional environment unsolicited flirting is unacceptable, and we should expect the best from our students in this regard. Flirting that 'comes up' between two people who are already acquainted is sometimes inevitable, and is not the scenario anyone is trying to imply when the word 'harassment' comes up.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

This thread has become totally circular, and I have had to explain this exact point countless times.
Continuing to make someone uncomfortable is unacceptable.
No one disagrees with your point, at least not here. You seem to have read my posts in response to the most radical positions expressed, and thought that I was in opposition to the original point.
Here, you seem to address this:
...but fall short. That may not be what YOU said, but do not pretend that no one here failed to make the distinction.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

It's pretty sad that a thread about "Making STEM a better place for women" has degenerated into some young men repeatedly shouting their own opinion at everyone in an effort to defend their privilege.

I'm out. Shame on me for expecting some nuanced discussion on a very important topic on these forums. Thanks to everyone who tried to make this discussion productive; your efforts are appreciated and noticed.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

The contents of this thread thus far have been extremely appalling. This thread started off being about how to make women more comfortable in STEM, and this thread is now just some individuals justifying their harassment and "creepy" behavior at competitions, social media, and beyond.

Let me tell you why this thread is important. Let me tell you girls out there who are too scared to say anything why it is important to say something about a man harassing you.

I've been involved in FRC for 6 years and have been recognizable within my generation of FIRST-ers for about the same time.
With this a lot of random people walk up to you at competition and want to talk to you.

I have had so many cases where people came in with intentions that were not just "making friends" and proceeded to make me feel uncomfortable.
At every event I went to my junior year I had this student on another team who kept harassing me for my number after I repeatably told the individual no. This individual continued to harass me for another year, every competition getting more and more physical, everyone I told kept saying "boys will be boys" and "he likes you."
That was NOT okay and should NOT be taken lightly.
Why is it that this society justifies harassment ?

Now that I'm a mentor I still face harassment everyday at competitions and on social media from random people adding me and wanting to get something out of me.
I’ve had 40 year old volunteers harass me at competition all the way down to freshman boys.
I’ve had people in the community send me sexual pictures that were not asked for.

And this is what I want all the young women reading this to know if something similar has happened to you.
TELL SOMEONE. I wish I did much sooner. The only way to change a culture is to do something about it. It’s to have society realize harassment happens a lot.
If you do not feel comfortable talking to your mentor about it, my inbox is always open for a chat.

As a culture, women are rare to be found in STEM, and it doesn’t help that when we pursue our passion we constantly have to deal with men harassing us.

This is not okay.
This needs to be changed.
This thread should of been the start.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Some of the people who have posted here have some major growing up to do. I hate making that statement, but I feel like having friends or loved ones who deal with this kind of crap on a daily basis is one of the only ways someone will really understand what harassment can mean and what it does to someone.

My only other additions to my original post: 1) if you are treated in a way you don't like, PLEASE tell someone, keep telling someone until action is taken. 2) mentors and parents-talk to your kids about what professionalism on a team means.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

There is still room for a productive discussion here. Actually, this thread has created an opportunity for several discussions:

- mentors roles as role models
- mentors limitations when dealing with team dynamics
- cultivating a welcoming, safe, and productive environment for everyone
- continuing to keep diversity in focus and at the forefront of STEM goals and initiatives
- never giving in or giving up on an opportunity to help the community grow and develop
- taking a good look at our actions and words and how they impact

I like this thread. It has gotten bogged down but, nothing that can't be fixed.

Jane

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

It is time we drop our opinions, nit-picky definitions, and personal experiences which distract from the problem that is at hand: Women often don't feel comfortable/safe within STEM. If you are not a women in STEM, your opinion on the environment of STEM for women is secondhand. What you think is comfortable/uncomfortable is not relevant to those who are affected. The point of this post is to help better STEM's environment for women. So, I think it's time to refocus on discussing specific solutions.

As I see it, the best place to start culture change is individuals getting actively involved. If you see something that looks uncomfortable, intervene. If someone comes to you and tells you they are uncomfortable or being harassed, intervene. If you aren't sure, intervene. You don't have to make every situation into a serial creep and a terrified victim. Simply point out that the situation looks uncomfortable and help figure out where that discomfort is coming from.

Sometimes all that is necessary is the discomfort to be called out. If this attention doesn't resolve the situation, then you can have a conversation. If the conversation doesn't work, then maybe you need to create a consequence.

Awkward flirting may not be harassment, but it is still uncomfortable, and this discomfort is what the problem is. These instances of discomfort discourage females from wanting to continue to be in STEM. We NEED to call attention these situations to make any progress. No two situations are going to be the same so no two solutions are going to be the same. There is no step by step guide on how to help. If there was, this thread wouldn't exist. Start by doing what you feel is right and intervene when you feel it is necessary. This means intervening even when it seems awkward and uncomfortable for you to do so. The more you do it, and the more comfortable you will become. The more comfortable you become, the better of a position you will be in to fight for this culture change at a higher level.

In conclusion, one of the many solutions to this problem is you. It is every one of you that cared enough to open this thread and read to this point. In order to solve this problem we all need to get out there, start intervening, and become the change we desire.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

This. If someone complains that the drive train isn't working, do you ignore them and continue believing there’s nothing wrong with it? No, you address it, test it, and if there is a problem you do your best to fix it. The same is applicable in this situation when a student complains about sexual harassment. The first step in solving a problem is recognizing there is one, as with anything. But don’t go about it like you’re investigating for sexual harassment, for Pete's sakes. Thankfully, most kids and adults in FIRST are above intentionally hurting others. But physically or verbally making another student uncomfortable in any way should not be tolerated after the issue has been brought up. At that point, it becomes an interpersonal problem, one in which has a high potentiality to inflate and blow up. I've seen this happen, where a situation escalates when it could be solved over a cup of coffee and common sense. So please, address it. Don’t ignore it based on your or someone else’s nit-picky definition or technicalities. FIRST is technical, maintaining strong, positive relations is not.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

From a mentor standpoint, I see this as pretty black and white.

I was once socially awkward as a student (I still might be?), it is NEVER an excuse for harassment. It is, quite simply, a matter of showing respect. Period. End of story.

If a student (or young mentor even), male, female, LGBT or otherwise is being made to feel uncomfortable by anyone, they should feel comfortable enough to mention something to a mentor and allow the mentor to handle the situation for them. The definition of uncomfortable, creepy, etc, is very simple...if you FEEL uncomfortable, you are!

It the job of the mentors to provide an environment for our students in which they feel safe and comfortable to come to us when they need any sort of guidance or help.

In terms of mentoring and making STEM a better place for women, this is also a matter of RESPECT. To the mentors: show all students and mentors, regardless of gender, race, religion, etc..., the same amount of respect. Expect the same respect to be given from your students to your other students and mentors.

It might behoove some of you to take note of some of the community members who have expressed some strong concerns over this thread. People like Amanda, Madison, and Karthik are people who have pioneered this program. They do not just speak from a perspective of someone who has jumped into FIRST out of nowhere...they have lived it, they are a product of it, and they have carried FIRST FOR A VERY LONG TIME into what it is today. They each understand the importance of respect, and they each understand what it is like to be on both sides of the spectrum.

In short...if you want to change the culture, be the culture, and heed the word of those who have been changing the culture longer than you can remember.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I have a small suggestion to consider, although it has nothing directly to do harassment. It has more to do with empowering people...

Whenever you feel compelled to say, "Let me help you with that" or "Let <insert name> help you with that" instead ask "Would you like some help with that?" It might seem like there is no difference but it's actually huge. The former is a command. The latter is an inquiry. With the former, the helpee has to risk confrontation by rejecting the help. The second allows for a polite decline. I've found that the command form of help happens a lot more if the helpee is younger than the helper or is female (extra likely if the helpee is both).

If your offer of help is declined, please do not try persuade or force your help. If your offer of help is accepted, that is not permission to the helper take over the task. It is up to the helper to take their cue from the helpee in how they can be of assistance.

There's a time and place for commands. Commands are great if someone is doing something dangerous or for a delegated team tasks coming from your team organization. Offering help should not come as a command.

The way we talk to each other matters. It affects the patterns we fall into. If you want to make a change, this is a place to start.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

This is super important because personally, robotics can be one of those places where you constantly hear sexist jokes and sometimes don't have other girls to back you up. I've also had a problem with guys poking me or standing way too close to the point where they are physically touching and/or trapping me. It looks like I'm going to be president of the club next year, though, so I plan to talk to the girls about how they can go to any of the older girls/mentors for help if someone is doing this to them. I'm also thinking about talking to the guys, but seeing that I'll only be a junior next year I'm not too sure if they'll listen to me.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I didn't read all the pages in this discussion but maybe my two cents might help.

Erin, robotics shouldn't be the place where you hear sexist jokes all the time. I think we can all remember the one late night when a student says something like "I have a stripper for each hand!" but the number of times that's happened in my nine years of being involved with a team are less than 5. I can only remember two or three but I'll allow that I've forgotten a couple. The point is, it should be so rare that it is something you remember as an anomaly.

If someone went up to another adult and said "Would it be OK to make sexist remarks to you?", you can bet the answer would be NO. (Excluding edge cases, OK?) People should understand that by doing something, they're effectively asking if it's permissible. Your mentors need to get across to all the students that one, it's important to say No and two, no one should be making other students uncomfortable.

Club or team rules should make this clear. And there should be clearly delineated consequences for failing to follow the rules.

I'm glad that I found this thread. I think it's going to be important to reiterate to our students all those rules. And then when we bring in new students, go over them again. When mentors and students are running on five or six hours of sleep for days during a competition, it might be easy to let some details slide. And the details around what's permissible can't be the ones that get dropped.

Brighid