Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Absolutely correct. To clarify, the "this" that's so difficult I was referring to is having this conversation about the topic, not whether or not an action constitutes harassment. Determining harassment only becomes a bit murky when girls don't feel free to object to advances in the clearest way possible. That forces the responsibility onto the actor to be absolutely certain that their actions are welcome and appreciated with 100% enthusiasm. The way to fix this is to change our culture so girls feel completely secure to assert themselves whenever and however they want within the same bounds we'd apply to boys.

There's a rightful stigma associated with harassment. The problem is this stigma can make people defensive since 1) they didn't mean any harm and 2) all of us internalize a lot messages throughout our lives that signal on some level that this behavior is ok as long as you didn't mean harm. People often do the things that they shouldn't when they aren't thinking. That includes creeping. Not that intent (or lack thereof) makes those actions ok at all, but it should inform how the person is corrected.

It's really a lot like if you hit my thumb with a hammer. It may have been an accident but that doesn't make it ok. Why you hit my thumb with a hammer matters a lot to how the situation should be handled in order to ensure it doesn't happen again. A girl who has been conditioned to "be nice" (just go along with it) is like one who has been taught to never yell or scream, even when hit with a hammer. It makes it that much harder for the person with the hammer to realize they've made contact.

My goal is to help people learn how to respect boundaries, not to cast them as vicitms or predators. It gets messy because there are cultural values that tell us guys should be praised for romancing girls and girls should be passive. Those values are one of the most harmful things we're all up against.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Just popped into this, to make a minor note. It's not always the students, and it's not always about physical attraction/flirting or whatever.

In my job in the real world, I am the only woman at my company and have had absolutely zero problems. In my last job, I was the only woman in the engineering department - again with zero problems. On my team in high school I had zero problems with teammates even though I was the only active female.

I had exactly one issue in the entire time I've been involved in FIRST. I had a mentor (he was the teacher sponsor) who chose to harass me and degrade me and my work, telling me that I was causing the team to fail and that I would ruin the team. At the time, we had very few active members and nobody else working on the CAD/mechanical stuff other than me.

I look back on this now and realize I should have brought this to the administration instead of just the other two mentors (non teachers), but I'm also thankful that that's the worst I've experienced when I know other people who have been through much, much worse.

I don't think there's any one thing that will fix/solve the problems that women face in STEM, and I don't believe that things will get better fast. However, with each group of kids that grows up things are getting better and better, so I think that we need to look at the kids that are growing up and learn something about tolerance and equality from them :)

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Ok..lots of back and forth. So I’m going to attempt to mediate. It’s evident y’all are discussing two things. Universally agreed “creepy” behavior, and normal “awkward” teenage interactions.
From my perspective (which is biased), JBotAlan raised this thread to discuss “creepy” behavior
To which it was responded:
Those posts, did in effect try to lump in “creepy” behavior with “awkward” teenage interactions, which effectively did trivialize the “Creepy” behavior, eliciting this post:
I think I agree with Amanda here, although I can see how she was a little aggressive (rightfully so). The two posts above hers kind of de-value the “creepy” behavior that girls say they experience by implying what JBotAlan said may not be creepy. Whether intentional or not, approaching what OP was saying and initially responding with “not all behavior is harassment” as below:
is not a good initial response because (again whether intentional or not) you’re effectively saying “between-the-lines” that what OP’s student and other girls/women are saying may not be justifiably “creepy”. That’s not being said point-blank, not written out in words, but jumping on the defense “not all behavior is creepy” implies that.

Katie gives good advice here:
There should never have been a discussion of “what is creepy” and “what is not”. We are here looking for solutions to “creepy” behavior. If someone comes to us and says something is a problem for him/her....it's a problem.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

If this is genuinely how you see the world, I implore you, as kindly and as urgently as is possible, to do some research and read stories of those who have to work within this "stacked system" in an attempt to bring the person who wronged them to justice, give themselves peace of mind, or even just live their lives harassment free.

Sure, ideally we'd only have conversations about not harassing other people regardless of gender, but the facts are such that women are incredibly disproportionately affected as the victims of harassment/DV/SA.

This view is simply untrue at best, and at worst a very dangerous one to hold and pass on to or share with others.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

You're correct that that is the change we need, but I think your approach is a little mis-guided. I believe the approach should be:

Girls will feel secure when the environment for them is secure.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

At this point, I am being forced to defend my and Sperkowski's honor if you will. Rhetoric labeling us as creepy and damaging have been leveled at us personally, so it's increasingly aggravating defending this position.
Which I will lay out again: Girls should report and talk abut behavior that makes them uncomfortable. I've yet to actually have anyone point to me where we said that they should not. Maybe there was an unintentional implication somewhere, but let me reassure you, that is not what either of us meant.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

While I am just seeing this thread now, even after just skimming it briefly I am already concerned about a couple specific things.

Firstly, the notion that "boys will be boys" or that it is "natural" for young men to harass young women with the only excuse being "hormones" is completely outdated and in my opinion, disgusting. It only reinforces the mentality that young men cannot act graciously or respectfully and that they have every right to harass young women. On many occasions I've been told by adults in my life, not necessarily in FRC, that the problems I'm experiencing with a "creepy" guy are natural and not their problem because "boys will be boys." It is up to adults, mentors, older students as well as the boys themselves to dispel this notion.

And secondly,

I won't even go into how poorly backed up this statement is, how sexist, inflammatory and flat out incorrect...I could name 20 cases right now where the exact opposite of what you are saying has happened.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

No.

We've had discussions as an entire team, on making sure your actions, and words are respectful of others. If you don't know if they like hugging or not, don't hug. We kind of talked a lot more about words but I think our discussion applied equally. This was initiated by me.

I've had smaller group discussions and even one-on-ones regarding that which was generally student initiated, or if I knew about an issue.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

If anyone is in the mood for a slight laugh, this made me chuckle a bit as to its relevance to the theme this year.

I agree that it wasn't appropriate for Katie to imply that.

You did not not say that (or at least I didn't see it -- too many negatives, I'm trying to say I agree with you).

But the disagreement is what should we do when girls report behavior that makes them uncomfortable which is essentially OP?

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

THIS:

is exactly why girls do not feel comfortable reporting or talking about behavior that makes them uncomfortable. Women will start speaking up about things that they experience when they feel as if they will be supported when they do so.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I said in some mountain of text. I try to bold things like that to make my position unambiguous, but it seems I've failed.

There is no disagreement when girls should report. Always talk about what makes you uncomfortable. Allow a balanced look to be taken at the situation and understandings be made.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

I think you may have misread my question. What should WE do when girls report "creepy" behavior?

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

preach

I am unaware of inter-team student interactions being something covered in FIRST's YPP. If it is, it is not something that is well published or something I remember having an offer to train on. On 422 (like most teams, I hope and assume) all team members sign a code of conduct (including mentors, but ours is different). Members who slip up in treating people like people and solving issues in a constructive way face remedial action for most first offenses, and at least suspension on a second offense.

Cards on the table, there have been instances where team members have exhibited actions similar to and far more extreme than ones in this thread, and if corrective action did not remedy the issue, they were summarily disappeared.

However, as far as I am aware the tools to help these issues outside of my team are either what I believe to be inadequate or simply nonexistent. It is a serious problem we have been and will continue to looking to solve in a constructive and thorough way in the coming year.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

The problem is that when we are having a discussion of events that have been considered harrasment and the usual "boys will be boys" excuse is brought up, or complaints of blurring the line between social awkwardness and harrassment downplays the real problems we're facing. Are there awkward situations in this world related to maturing at that age? Yes. But that's not what we're trying to address. It's like talking about famine and someone chimes in to complain that we're mistaking it with hunger. They are two separate things.

If you keep having conversations about harrasment you've faced sidetracked into "but was it really that bad" all your life, you might understand why more of us don't come forward to talk about it.

Re: Making STEM a better place for women
 

Talk to both involved parties and try to understand both points of view. Anything beyond that is impossible to perscribe on a forum.