Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

In the press release announcing Qualcomm's sponsorship FIRST has confirmed multiple Championship events starting in 2017:

Anyone have any information on how this will actually work?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

You have one championship in Houston, one in St. Louis. Then at the end of it all you now have 6 world champions, and assumedly 2 CCA teams.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

8* world champions

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

8 world champs if they continue the 4 alliance elims.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

8 world champions assuming the alliance structure stays the same.

Edit: wow I got beaten by 2 people...

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Champs webpage has better info:
2017 and Beyond

Highlights:
Champs will be on subsequent weekends, Houston then STL, Houston then Detroit. (First Champs, best Champs. (Also, poor Al, Jess, MCs, etc.))
This is the plan from 2017 - 2020.
No details on regional split or anything like that. One presumes FiM teams and others with DCMPs in Week 7 likely won't be heading to Houston Champs in Week 8. Maybe HQ is going to compress some of the regions schedules to get them into the Houston Champs.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

It's certainly possible, but I think they decide to structure it in such a way that teams slated to go to Houston complete their cycles by Week 6, and Week 7 groups schedule to go to Detroit/St. Louis. I'm sure we'll something about it this summer though.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

The real conflict is with teams that do VEX...

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

How about split dates at the same venue?

Bring half the teams come in Sunday, Monday and Tuesday. Have the winners stay. Bring in the other half Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

Playoffs on Saturday. One Woodie Flowers and Chairman's winners. One winning alliance.

• Only one setup needed.
• Given a nice venue, volunteers may stay the week. (Disney come to mind)
• No arguing who the real champ is.

Just Saying........

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I would absolutely be in favor of this, however there are a few logistical issues that might be difficult to overcome.

Airfare for the winning team from the first half would be a nightmare. Teams wouldn't know if they have to hold over their flights until the last day and getting them reworked at the last minute seems all but impossible.

Asking those same students to take more time off of school again at the last minute prolly wouldn't fly with the administration.

Also getting volunteers who would be able to give the full week of time needed would be a daunting task in and of itself.

I do think that maybe something should be done so that the 2 winning alliances meet up at some point to determine an overall champion.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This was my initial reaction last year.

Seems like a shot taken at Vex Worlds to schedule both late-April weekends for Half Champs.

-Mike

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

So the first set of winners have to miss more work, more school, and pay more money than the 2nd set of teams?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This seems like something for IRI to help with..... :)

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Last we have heard anything about how the venue assignment will happen was on March 4th.

http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...s-march-4-2016

So either they are waiting to announce after champs (or during like they did with the split) or something went awry.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

With 800 teams at two champs locations, I assume it will be 400 at each. In total, will they have 8 divisions with 100 each? or 16 with 50 each? or 12 with 67ish each? or another split up? Does anyone know for sure? thanks.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This is the most upsetting thing for me when it comes to splitting the champs. As a mentor of both VEX and FRC, it's going to sucks having to choose which competition to go to...

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This info may have been distributed but I cannot find it on the FIRST site:

How do you know which venue you are going to?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I've heard rumors of expanding FTC at World Champs as well but I'm willing to bet that FIRST is on top of the logistics needed to support the sheer quantity of people at the events. I don't think they'll ever get to 800 FRC teams at a single event.

Remember, it was 600 (ish) FRC teams at champs last year. Going from 400 to 600 teams for FRC in 2015 used about 750 more hotel rooms, or 3-5 additional hotels' worth of rooms (convservatively @ 15 people traveling per team, 4 people to a room). That also means about 3500 more people (including volunteers for the new divisions) had to travel to the city during very specific dates and times.

The timing conflict with VEX is a pretty unfortunate scenario. I doubt it was a direct intention - the IFI sponsorship is significant and reaches every team in FRC. I really do wonder about the thinking behind the dates though.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

My guess is we go back to 4 divisions with the "old" divisions being at one champs and the "new "divisions at the other. I believe the current 8 division system was just to hold us over. And test how divisions of the current size/dilution would play out.


Timeline:

Vex Schedules Worlds 3-4 years out.
FIRST then schedules Worlds for the same weekend those 3-4 years
Vex bends over backwards to move the weekend so that teams can do both (Keeping in mind VEX encourages FRC participation with its VEXPro line)
FIRST then splits champs and books it for the weekend VEX worlds is after VEX already bent over backwards.

It would just appear that FIRST is being reactionary and unwilling to make compromises like VEX is - malicious intent or not.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

"Who? What?" *eyes dart back and forth nervously*

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I believe the real reason was the scheduling requirement for two very large and popular venues. It was not aimed at intentionally disrupting VEX.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

If I was FIRST I would mix up the new and old divisions. Putting all 4 of the "classic" divisions at one event seems like it will give it the feel of being the more prestigious of the two. The 4 "classics" just have so much more history behind them by virtue of being older. But splitting and mixing new and old may help to mitigate this problem.

(I'm trying to think of a Sportsball analogy but I'm drawing a blank right now)

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Even better, this will allow Carson and Carver to be at different events to reduce confusion.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This. Y'all surely realize that in Houston we're talking about using a basketball arena and a baseball stadium at the end of basketball season and the beginning of baseball season. You can't push it a week later, or else you're doing opening ceremonies in the George R Brown because the Rockets might be in the playoffs. And you're not doing opening ceremonies in Minute Maid, because it's already a miracle they're letting you do Finals/Einstein there for a whole day during the season. There's like a 24 hour time limit on how long they'll let you cover the infield, especially during the season.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

It's my understanding that finals/einstein are in the convention center at both Houtson and Detroit.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

The Champions can meet at IRI. I think the real problem here is finding enough volunteers for two championship events and the dropoff in robot quality with so many teams at Champs.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Being son of the Houston RD gets me early access to info, I suppose. I'm unclear on division finals locations, but Einstein and Closing Ceremonies are to be in Minute Maid. I would expect finals as well so we aren't shuffling the entire Champs across the street to Minute Maid at lunch, but I'm also unsure where they're fitting the fields. Regardless, Minute Maid is definitely a requirement for pulling off Houston Champs, since it's going to be the only place you'll fit everyone around one field.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Actually moving 32 teams at lunch is going to be much easier then moving 256 teams at the beginning of the day. The only way around this would be to do alliance selection friday night, which I don't think they'd do. I wouldn't be surprised to see them run division elims on the division fields, then move the winners to Einstein during the 2 hour break.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This is what they did in 2011 when 2 of the division fields were in the same area as the pits, right?

Looks like we might want to motorize our pit boxes in anticipation of the move...

-Mike

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

It was only 8 teams back then anyway that advanced (6 mains plus 2 backups). Plus the walk from the pits to the dome is for sure to be much shorter then the walk to a completely different building.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

The good news is that it'd only be 16 teams that have to haul a robot and mobile pit across the street and down some ramps, once. As opposed to the entire Champs having to hoof it up ramps and down ramps for every match in 2003...

That probably depends on what end of GRB your division is. There's 2 blocks between GRB and Minute Maid, and GRB itself is 5 blocks long.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Related question: what happens to the deans list? Do they have the finalists whose teams are competing in Houston come out to St. Louis? That's cost, in time and air fair. Do they hold the ceremonies/luncheons twice? Do all teams with a finalist get routed to the second competition?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I'm a bit more worried about Detroit. Cobo to Ford Field is about a mile walk through the heart of downtown.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Assumedly they just double the number of winners, 20 at each.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Does Don Bossi have a CDL?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Do we know yet about what will happen to Einstein Field? Will both championships have Einstein or will one keep it and the other gets a new field name?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

That's a pretty big assumption considering many great teams don't go to IRI or at least every year. Just taking last year into consideration, 254, 359, 987, 368, 971, 1678, 1671 all didn't attend IRI last year. In fact only one member team 118 of last year's world champions attended IRI.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This actually sounds pretty cool.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Last year wouldn't be a good year to judge this. Many teams made the decision that it wasn't worth traveling far for another round of Recycle Rush... Plus I believe several of those teams were doing an event in China. 2015 was the most "local" IRI's been in several years.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I'm not sure, but Dean has a pilot's license ;)

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This is a very easy walk and pretty safe. Ive done it many times myself. It isn't much different than the old Atlanta walk from the furthermost hotels to Georgia-Dome (and its not uphill).

There are also options of the people mover (.4 mile from the stop to ford field) and the M1 rail that will help take walking out of the equation.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Have you done that walk with your entire pit and robot? ;)

-Mike

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

They did block off a good chunk of the roads for Shells Ecomarthon last year around Cobo, and that was for 3 days.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I hadn't seen that page -- thanks.

(And side note - Why the Heck did they blur the FIRST logo on Don's shirt in the video!?)

I'm just hoping that a lot more information, especially location assignment/logistics gets released before fundraising for next season kicks into high gear. (I can see the conversation, "Well... Championship could be this week, or it could be the week after, in Detroit or Houston, and it could be bigger, or not, and we can't pre-reserve hotels because we don't know where we're going, so we'll probably have to spend more and....")

The more I think of it the hotel problem could be a real nightmare. If you get "assigned" a championship, do you try to hold a block of rooms in both cities until you find out? If the total # of teams in both championships is more than this year in St. Louis, doesn't this actually make hotels harder to find if many teams do this?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

~BRANDING STANDARDS~

I'm anticipating an announcement sometime on Thursday, giving it timing similar to last year's well-received announcement.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Old logo.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Still, there are SO many other ways you can adjust for that. They could just use the old logo on his shirt and barely anyone would notice or care. This just looks awkward and points it out even more...

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

They even uploaded a new video just to blur the logo. The original was uploaded when the announcement first came out in April 2015. This new video was uploaded Feb. 16th, 2016.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

You want to bring a pitchfork so this year's announcement can be received just as well? :rolleyes: Or should we just recreate the witch scene? :p

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Oh, I'm still rolling from when they announced the logo update with him wearing the old logo. That was pretty classic.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I'm still trying to figure out how they'll split the US, but they should make sure to send all the international teams to Detroit. That way we can have our nationals back.

/s

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Are you scared of losing to the internationals? ;)

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Pretty sure Wk7 District Championship teams will be sent to the later of the two World Championships (in Detroit). For that matter, they could put ALL District Championship teams for the time being in Detroit and still have room left over. Probably won't though.

However they do it, I hope it isn't an afterthought.

PS: Didn't Houston use to host Nationals back in the day for like 1 year?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

2003. It was a terrible idea that can only be excused because FRC had been kicked out of Disney/EPCOT and had to find a venue on short notice. Fields were in Reliant Stadium, and pits were on the floor of the Astrodome. This caused significant problems, because you had to walk up several ramps to get out of the astrodome, then down several ramps to get to the floor of Reliant Stadium. The whole trip was pretty long, and extremely difficult if you didn't have a robot cart. At EPCOT, most field were close enough that you could hand carry the robot without much difficulty, so I think a lot of teams were caught out by that. I know a few teams somehow ended up with shopping carts for transporting their robots.

Anyways, I promise 2017 is going to be loads better than 2003, since HQ's had a lot more experience with the convention center+dome Champs model, and they've accepted a lot more involvement from the local experts on running events here. I'm just sad that 2003 soured things in Houston so much that we didn't get a chance to do it right in 2004.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I was just thinking the same thing! The big problem is the travel costs for teams that don't live a couple states away from Indiana. It would be cool, though, to get as many half world champions to indy as possible, and have them play a finals series.

I envision a fleet of 45,000 segways rolling through the streets of Detroit.

And now to the soapbox...
Personally, I think it cheapens the championship experience to divide it up this way. I love to see all the teams I look up to, and the fact that they're putting half of them at another event next year disappoints me greatly. Put FRC in one venue, and FTC/FLL/jr. FLL in the other venue. Teams have always made it to the championship, even if it's expensive. It's hard for us to find the money, and we're only a 3.5 hour school bus ride to St. Louis. I get it. It might not support the whole "progression of programs" thing to put FTC and FLL in a different city than FRC, but that's already happening in St. Louis. Both groups are isolated now; comparing 2015 to my experience at 2013 and 2014 champs, I saw no difference in the quality of experience. Even without FTC and FLL, FRC champs was great because I got to see all of the great teams. Giving FTC and FLL their own venue would also help them massively. You know what kills the FTC/FLL experience? The fact that next to none of them make it to champs, and yet 1 in 5 FRC teams will be in St. Louis in two weeks. Think about that- statistically, one robot in every match this season would be at champs. Give FTC and FLL their own space so that they can have a gigantic, lively championship like we do.
Stepping off the soapbox...

I really hope that the new championship structure doesn't cheapen the experience that comes with the FIRST World Championship. It's an incredible event, and I'm happy that the freshman on our team will get to experience the last true World Championship before it all changes.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

It's great that you like seeing and competing with elite and inspiring FRC teams. By splitting Champs into two and expanding the number of teams that attend Champs from 600 to 800, even more teams will get to have this kind of experience. It's true they won't get to attend with all the elite teams in FRC, but it's not like every elite team makes it to Champs every year right now anyways.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Something from your post made me think; what happens when FRC hits 4000 teams, or 5000 teams? Is FIRST still going to try and pack 20-25% into World Championships? Will we reach a point were it will become infeasible. Or will they add a 3rd event, and then a 4th event? Sounds expensive.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I dont want to go to a champs where 254 or 1114 or 359 or 67 or 118 isnt. And just because other elite teams are at mine, missing out on perennial championship caliber teams just plain sucks.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This. I imagine they specifically put the second weekend in Detroit so MSC could stay where it currently is. I imagine we'll see a reshuffling of when DCMPs will be held; those going to Houston will be held Week 6, those in Detroit Week 7. The rest will probably be based on team location or the location of the regional where the team qualified.

I'm not a huge fan of the idea of splitting the Championship. I wish there was some way that we could have 800 teams in a building. But I'd be lying if I didn't say that Champs changed my life. If other students get the same experience I had from it, then I think at the end of the day, it's worth it to make the change.

I hope they make some way to change who-goes-where on a yearly basis. That'll help alleviate the problem, somewhat.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

While I agree they will likely do it this way, it really stinks for areas in districts that have to go to Houston. These areas have to pack districts into one less week, rush travel plans more often, etc. Overall, things gets more expensive for teams going to Houston, as well as the districts that support those teams.

Alternative strategy, CA waits to go to districts until there is a "West Champs" in 2021. Maybe we'll be waiting until then anyway... :rolleyes:

-Mike

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I imagine the largest districts (MAR, NE, and FIM) will be Week 7, like they are this year. All of them would probably attend Detroit anyway, based on their location. Smaller districts who can pack the events into 6 weeks (CHS, PCH, NC, and maybe PNW/IN) would probably go to Houston. With the exception of Indiana and PNW, who could go either way, those districts are are also relatively equidistant or closer to Houston. However, I don't disagree: I've never been on a planning committee, but I'm sure a smaller timeline makes planning more difficult.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

The biggest problem I have with the two champs system, and I'm sure this isn't unique to me, is the fact that whether you divide it East/West or North/South, 2056/1114/1241/33/27 will never again play 254/1678/118/148/987.

One of the greatest parts of being able to go to champs is being able to see the best of the best all in one place. While I don't necessarily think that only PLAYING half of the FIRST teams is a big deal (divisions are still just as hard to win), it definitely is a big deal not being able to MEET them.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I think even greater than seeing all of the power houses duke it out for a title (IRI notwithstanding) is getting to see all of the friends you've made through the years. Champs is a pretty good yearly chance to see them all again.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This is a major issue on so many levels starting with teams that do both programs and finding volunteers.

Hopefully, there will be a possible solution soon that will address this.:)

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Any updates from Championship about the process for selecting which championship teams attend ?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I think it's curious that they boxed themselves in a little by declaring that it would be based on geography in the original announcement. I'm not sure how other teams would react to this, but I think our team would welcome a "division 2" sort of experience until we were strong enough to graduate to the "division 1" field.

This sort of breakdown (by team strength if you will) would solve the obvious problems of "who are the world champions" (div 1 winner) and "dang we probably won't ever see 1114 and 254 together at champs again".

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

But then you have the problem of how to determine the strengths. And if you're wrong, then SOMEBODY's going to be unhappy. (And, to be honest, you can't get it right.) If you do it in-season, you're telling teams to book flights to X without enough time to do it. If you do it preseason, you'll get it wrong for the current season (just trust me, you will).


If you use geography, with some sort of allowance to change which event a team goes to (to get a mixture), then EVERYBODY's going to be unhappy roughly equally. That generally translates to less "ruckus" around that.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I would wait until the official announcement is released on how they plan to split up the teams for the 2 events.
For many, the decision to not want to go to the other one instead, will be primarily based on finances/logistics rather than the teams they want to compete with.
If the event is 45 minutes away from my hometown, I cant why any team or school district would allow travel to the other champs due to cost.
After speaking with many teams this past weekend, this seems to be the primary issue for them which makes sense.

For our team, cost to go to Houston is much cheaper than flying to St. Louis. But given the chance, we will choose St. Louis and Detroit the following year, because we do VEX. If we have teams qualifying for VEX Worlds, we would elect to skip Houston since its planned for the same weekend.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This also doesn't address the complaints of not being able to see 254, 1114, etc. at a Champs you're attending.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I look at the geography in 2 simple views....

First, "X" Championship is close to me and decreases my travel/lodging time/cost/complication.

Or, neither championship is close enough to me to make a significant difference.

For the former the cost/hassle savings would dictate the championship I would want to attend, and I'd be a bit miffed if I got forced to go to the other one for some reason.

For the latter, the decision on which we would want to attend may come down to schedule (perhaps the one taking place of the students' spring break), or what other teams may be attending (seeing other teams we may know, look up to, or have a relationship with).

Either way, some subset of teams are going to be unhappy, it's just a matter of how many, and what severity.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I could be wrong, but I feel like all these problems are solvable with the same system.
1. Allow teams to opt in to whichever division they want
2. Sort teams that don't declare for one or the other using some point system that includes historical results, team size or budget.
3. Don't let 254, 1114, etc. choose. :) (That's a joke...)

So it really doesn't solve the last problem of all the great teams at one championship (with those wanting to see them opting in there as well) unless they somehow cooperate to choose that one.

But, it does introduce the idea of divisions, and if this is really simulating the sports world, that's somehow the direction we need to go. I mean, can you imagine Notre Dame playing Local Yokel U. in football? Or Duke thrashing Faber College in basketball?

Just tossing it out there...

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I really don't buy this argument at all. Seriously, when was the last time you heard someone say they didn't want districts because of the district ranking system?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I don't understand how you can connect what I'm saying to the district ranking system. If you care to explain, then I'll care to respond.


But if it has anything that involves teams making FLIGHT reservations <1 week before CMP, you bet your boots that it'll be a non-starter. 2 weeks is pushing it as it is. Hotel reservations? HAH! At least those can be held by FIRST...

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Just because I can, I'll throw 2 cents into this pile. My opinions don't reflect any team or other team members.

Let teams select where they want to attend. Some teams have the means to travel. So a team from Houston wants to go to Detroit, they should let the team decide. (leave in the acceptance time line we have now).

With split dates, one could argue that the teams going to the event on the latter date would have more time to prepare. Most teams attending championships have a practice bot. So there is a case to be made about going to the latter of the two events.

Now on the flip side, I could see where FIRST could say "Rookie Teams" and a set group of teams (2nd and 3rd yr or teams that haven't attend in the last XX yrs) would be locked geographically. This would assist in setting a field while letting others select where they attend.

Now, if any selection is allowed, here is the "Issue" what happens when an event fills up before the last Regionals/Districts and you have a team without the means (Money) to travel a greater distance. Do you lock in a set number of slots, and when the waitlist comes up fill them off there.

How do you handle the wait list? By what a team has asked for or by geography. Team 999999 wants to go to Houston but Houston is full are they even offered a position in Detroit?

FIRST has a lot of decisions to make about how different issues are to be handled. Hopefully some one is looking at what the community is saying as many people have many excellent points to the issues that could and will arise over the next 9 months.

Have a Great Off-Season!!

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I'm mostly referring to an in season decision. I agree that a preseason decision would probably work out terribly. But my point is FIRST has always needed to decide which teams deserve to go to district championships and who goes to worlds. Teams have never complained about that. And the same goes for the regional system, which if im being honest, is a horrible system for deciding who gets to go.* I don't see how deciding which teams get to go to the division A champs and which teams get to go to the division B champs is any different. As for logistics, in districts teams would be finding out where they stand in the rankings at the same time that they do now. Maybe there are some more teams that can't book ahead of time because they would have been sure they could qualify for a championship before district champs, but nowe aren't sure which one, but for the majority nothing has changed. As for teams still in the regional system, I think people would just have to get used to a system where 3 teams qualify for division A (say alliance captain, 1st pick, and chairman's), and the other 3 go to division B. It's not perfect, but like I said, it's not like the current system is good either.

* I could talk about how I think it is far too biased towards non-engineering awards and luck, but the aspect of it that I think everyone can agree is terrible is how heavily your chances of qualifying are based on the quality of the regional, how late in the season it is, and how many regional you can afford to attend, rather than how much you actually deserve to go.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

OK, now I understand.

In principle, I don't see there being all that big a deal...

But then there are two further points that need to be made.

#1: If you sort into an A and a B, then one of the two is NO LONGER a CHAMPIONSHIP. You're sorting a second-tier group. That's like telling a rookie team that they could have had RAS and now because they didn't perform well enough on-field they only get RI (or nothing). There are solutions, yes. But don't call it a Championship. I've made my views on that very clear in the past, this isn't a good way to do it.

#2: As I said before, ANY solution that results in teams having zero time to make travel arrangements (particularly flights--as a Bostonian, you need to understand that the West Coast has NEVER, EVER been able to DRIVE to Champs without taking multiple days, unlike most of the East Coast and Midwest teams) is a non-starter. It was bad enough trying to get a team in on a lost/canceled reservation (actually happened, but the travel agency worked to get us there and home); I can't imagine doing that under normal conditions.


If you use geography, at least teams know BEFORE they plan where their particular system is feeding to, so they can immediately start planning when they qualify. If you use a points system, teams might not know until Week 7 after qualifying in Week 1--that means that they had 6. Weeks. of. Not. Being. Able. To. Plan. This isn't a DCMP that most teams can easily drive to, this is a World Championship Event! You can't just go in without planning!

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I mention that if you dig into threads last year, EricH and I worked out a system that we thought would make everyone a bit happier, but we doubt that anything will come of it, at least until after FIRST has some experience with its current proposed model.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Based on a few conversations I've had with people and some ideas rolling around in my head, I've developed a few thoughts on how I think teams will be split between the two venues. All venue assumptions are just that: assumptions. I may or may not be right.

#1 (District System): Any team that qualifies through the district system will be zoned based on the location of said district. For example, Peachtree would go to Houston, and New England would go to Detroit.

#2 (Regional System): The championship which you qualify for is based on the event location that you originally qualify at. For example, let's say a team from Arizona attends the Northern Lights Regional in Minnesota. If that team won the event, and had not prequalified, they would receive a bid to attend Detroit. If another Arizona team went to AZ North and qualified, then they would attend Houston. However, if the team that went to Northern Lights ALSO went to AZ and qualified, they would still be going to Detroit, not Houston. The team that earned the subsequent wildcard would go to Houston.

#3 (Prequalified teams): All prequalified teams will be assigned based on registered team location in TIMS. This is done far enough in advance and is a small enough number of teams that it shouldn't affect too much.

#4 (District teams competing at Regionals): This is the only major change I think they would have to make. Since FIRST is trying to provide incentive for regions to go to the district model, I believe they would have to choose this solution - if a team from a district attends a regional and qualifies at that event before qualifying any other way, then they DO NOT count into that district's allocation, and, for the purposes of assigning teams to Houston/Detroit, would become a team under point #2. Again, that team would NOT count toward that district's allocation.

This system would, I think, keep the number of teams attending each Championship reasonably constant and predictable.

Just a few thoughts and educated guesses, nothing more.

EDIT: Basically, this http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...5&postcount=36
(Thanks Jared)

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Hey Guys-

I feel a bit obligated to chime in, as I am all of your community representative to the 2017 Championship Committee. I can't share specific details with what the split will be, but I wanted to simply state that almost every option and thought shared here has been taken under consideration by the Championship Committee.

Obviously this is a very challenging task. "Splitting" Championship is not the approach I would have taken, but with that being said, making the best possible outcome for both Championships and for the teams was my biggest priority in the MANY discussions had by the committee.

I don't think there is a way to make everyone happy at the same time, but I think many teams will be happy and hopefully everyone will agree the system put in place is fair and predictable.

-Brando

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

That's sort of true. I'm not sure how much of a sports fan you are, but the winners of the NIT are still called "champions". Does that mean that anyone remembers that George Washington won this year? Besides GW and some really hard-core fans, everyone else remembers Villanova as the "real" champions. It's fine. Everyone recognizes this. I doubt even anyone at GW thinks they could have won the NCAA tournament. Anyway, my point is that it happens for every sport at every level. There is only one World Series champion, but there are plenty of minor league championships, college baseball championships, high school championships, little league championships... None of them would beat the World Series champions. I am in danger of beating a dead horse here, so I'll stop.

Actually, I was going to leave it at that, but I would argue that the A and B scenario is actually better than the geography scenario for determining a champion. I think in the geographic / random distribution of teams, your quote could be amended to "neither of the two is a championship". We'd be where college football was before the playoff system, where the champions were not determined on the field but in the sports editors' offices.

I'm not sure why geography is the only way they know before the season. I am suggesting that teams are "sorted" (including those declaring) before the season. Same situation as before - teams know where they are going, if they qualify.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I can agree to both of those points. There are a lot of problems with making one event better than the other, and I can't say that I have thought enough about the idea to know if there actually is a practical, satisfactory solution to make it work. But I think, done correctly, it could solve at least some of the problems with the championsplit.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Don't most states have a tiered approach to all high school sports?

Division 2 Football Champs
Class A Basketball Champs

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Heck one could argue a lot of schools do this with Varsity, and Junior Varsity teams

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

It would also be bad for the teams that are there for the second event due to the need for hotels and no city has enough hotel space for all teams to be booking hotels to cover across both events

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Do y'all really think we're at a level where that kind of segregation by ability makes sense, though? Assume we have perfect knowledge of teams and we magically do that split.

A division = STL Champs - lower 33% of robots, split into 4 sub-divisions. How different does that look from the STL Champs we got? How different does that Einstein look?

B division = lower 33% of STL Champs + the next 200 bots by capability. What does this Champs look like? What does this Einstein look like?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

That's done by student population size though.

The real world champion is what we all make of it. Our current system has the winning alliance's backup bot as the world champion. I don't think anyone would argue that any 3rd round pick is better than 254 or other top tier teams, but we as a community, myself included, see all four teams on that alliance as world champions, while no one else is.

For this reason splitting champs by ability or by region will always result in 8 world champions, it just depends on what YOU feel qualifys a team a champion. In much of sports there is more than one champion by virtue of more than one championship. Take swimming for example.

Along with the world championship, their is also the Olympics. You could argue a swimmer that wins gold at either is the world champion. This does assume however that everyone can compete at either championship.

(Assuming a model based on location, which I don't particularly support) If teams want to compete at both championships, let them, but they need to qualify at two events where they can qualify. Say 9999 in the Chesapeake district wants to go to both worlds. They can attend a regional in California, Win chairman's there, and qualify for both championships by also qualifying through their district.

If we are switching from 600 to 1000 spots at worlds next year (not sure of real number) we shouldn't worry about the few teams that make both worlds taking up spots.

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Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

I don't call them championships.
I call them Super Regional North and Super Regional South.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

FIRST is the one sport that isn't segregated by school size. I know that our team appreciates that unlike the athletics, we compete against teams from around the world and with a huge variety of school sizes, funding and support.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This is a team sport, not individual, just like football. So we call Peyton Manning the Super Bowl champion, but we also call the Broncos' back up offensive tackle the same thing. Let's not diminish the role of anyone team member of the winning alliance. So we have had one winning alliance. It is an easy concept to convey.

And most sports skip their world championship in Olympic years to avoid any confusion. Track/athletics does this and soccer/football doesn't have the World Cup then.

Not trying to short sell the role of the backup bot at all. I might not have been clear enough about that. But the point I was trying to make is as long as all teams can theoretically compete at both championships, I believe they maintain the integrity of being called a world championship.

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Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

That'd be like calling the AFC Champs and the NFC Champs both NFL Champs.

That's not how Championships work. As in football it is one team, in FIRST it is one alliance.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Is there any official list showing who goes to which championship yet? Teams will really need to know for planning purposes.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

Nope.

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

The real question on everyone's mind should be will Ed be attending both events or only one?

Re: Split Champs in '17 and '18
 

This. Now I know this method would cause a lot of hassle and problems but letting us decide would help us so much simply because we do VEX and FRC. It would allow teams to attend both World Championships.

Also, as much as I love my hometown, part of the fun of going to Champs was the travel. I would love to be able to travel to St. Louis/Detroit if we qualified.