Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I am going to preface this by saying I love this forum but, sometimes it can be brutal. The big reason why I am making this thread was stemmed from series of comments on my F4 thread.

So, yea....

I joined CD over a year ago while my team was in a cycle of failure. No one knew what to do and it was a place to gain FRC insight. Being I talkative person in general I jumped straight into discussion. Probably not the wisest idea being my knowledge level at the time. One of my first posts was completely out of line and was just an unnecessary statement calling a 254 robot mentor built. Looking back I can not fathom why I would put such a statement on the internet but I did. I got as I could now predict a swarm of red dots. Knocking me well below into negative points. Especially since one of the people was Karthik. After realizing how dumb my post was I pmed all of the people that redded me to apologize. Except for the people who threated me....

So, I was now a student with my team number in my BIO sitting with 4 red dots. Realizing how bad it looked to my team I contacted Brandon Martus who helped me out and brought me into green. It was a second chance.

From there I continued posting quite a bit. Often times my opinion was disregarded. It was not that my posts were always bad it was just that some mentors had a hard time taking advice or discussing something with a student.

Despite me also getting greened quite a bit I still had my fair share of red dots. Some from respected mentors some not so respected. Ironically with quite a lot of dots at this point only one red one came from a student and it was very recently and did not actually make logical sense. There were a few dots that made sense. I may have went a little too far or said something rude but the majority were just from angry people with a different opinion.

I sometimes make jokes that my RP page is Christmas themed with the Red, Gray, and Green dots. Luckily my green dots outweigh my red ones at this point.

You may have noticed by now the thread I quoted earlier was from months ago. The reason why I started this thread was after a long discussion with the F4 community of students. We found that many of felt looked down upon from mentors and that the RP system was abused by quite a few of them.

If you are a new member here my advice is to re-read your posts and make sure they are both factual, and respectful. Do not post when angry and make sure to follow FIRST ideals at all times.

Lets make sure to make this a safe place for both students and mentors. Lets simply be kind and take a second to understand the intent of a post before reacting. Also I urge everyone to only red dot someone if they are being blatantly rude, or disrespectful. Someone accidentally quoting the wrong page of a manual or disagreeing with you respectfully are not a reason for a red dot. That is what grey dots are for. ;)

- Sam

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I don't think that mentors have a hard time taking good advice. I bet most of us have a hardened skepticism against "claims", "opinions", "thoughts" and "feelings" that are not backed up by data, facts, verified demonstrations or in some cases - common sense.

Then there's the time it would take to gather the data, facts, or verified demonstrations in order to incontrovertibly correct a bad opinion. Personally I don't respond to a lot of 'wrong' posts simply because of that.

All in all, the dot system is a way to PM someone and project "thoughts" and "feelings" that then hopefully correct behaviors. It's like a CD emoticon that serves as a +1, 'like' or Upvote/Downvote. Do you think that without the red dots you would have had the motivation to change at all?

edit - quick note after following the first few quote - this post is more about your journey on CD in general over the last year, rather than anything about your show. IMO, it's a great thing you're working so hard to keep the student side of FRC alive! I may send a few kids your way if you want more guests. Let me gauge interest.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

There's a very old saying on these forums:

It's a message that I've learned to live by for a long time, both on and off these forums.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Nope. I'm gonna be honest here, based on what you've just posted, it seems to me that the thing that finally changed your perception was Karthik's negative reputation and subsequent private message conversation. In the offline real world, it works the same way. You have the right to open your mouth (or type on a keyboard) and say whatever you want, but in doing so you open yourself up to criticism. Creating a safe space where no one is allowed to tell each other when they're wrong stifles teaching and learning opportunities.

Clearly you've already learned something from this experience so I wont harp on it, but I think it would be better to "check yourself" before you make a post instead of doing so unfiltered and then deflecting the consequential criticisms.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'm going to go ahead an demonstrate my ignorance. Can someone please explain what dots you are talking about? Is there a reputation system on CD that I never knew of? I can't see anything on my personal profile page, nor any of yours.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Look at the top right of any of your posts, you have 2 green dots. You can also go to your "user cp" and wee who gave you rep and why they gave you rep.

Edit: full rules of the reputation system can be found here.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

It's the green or red dots under your post count. This is view able in the top right of each of your posts.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Top right of any post.

Giving positive karma to Nate Laverdure or Wil Payne will result in your own karma going down so fair warning. ;)

Remember, they're just dots.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

They are the small, green or red gradients that appear directly under your post count (another number that doesn't really mean much) on the top right side of any post.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Wow, 3 answers very quickly! I confess I've not noticed any of the stuff on the right side of the posts. Thanks for the heads up.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

What I think may be the issue for some is the disconnect between a mentor student relationship on the Internet to one in real life. But overall I agree.

Also I fully support the cp more commonly known as rp system. Without it I probably would have changed quite a bit slower and it's definitely a good wakeup call once in a while.

Lastly yup this didn't have much to do with my show thanks though. If your students or anyone else wants to join apply here http://goo.gl/forms/vKi7FIqj1c we have about 40 members on our slack and it's extremely active.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I think part of the issue is that students these days are so connected to the internet and social media that they over post. They come in all excited and saturate CD with a lot of useless posts and questions that could be found with a proper search.

Not to point you out as a negative but look at your numbers Sperkowsky.

You joined: Jan 2015 total posts 1280 in just over 15 months

Now look at me

Joined Jan 2007 total posts 966 in just over 9 years. (i had another account before but was inactive for a time on CD and couldn't remember it)

There are many times that I write up a post and then end up not posting it because at the end of the day what I was going to say wasn't really going to add to the conversation or after I typed it out I realized it wasn't really worth getting into the conversation.

I've preached this about team growth in FRC but it works here as well. Quality over quantity.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

When I say safe place I do not mean neglecting the rep system. What I am saying is we should make sure students do not have their opinions shut down withoit real reason and the unnecessary reputation doesn't get thrown around.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

What constitutes certain reputation as unnecessary?

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I believe you make some solid points, especially pointing out that unnecessary reputation shouldn't be thrown around. But what may seem unnecessary to one person, may seem productive to another.

For example, I have been known to give red dots to students (usually ones that I personally mentor) who post on CD without editing their content to be more professional. It may seem frivolous to give red dots for text speak and incorrect grammar, but one of the things I appreciate about CD is the professional communication.

How do you better propose to encourage and teach students the proper way of interacting on CD?

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'm very impressed by the OP... quality post reflecting a tremendous amount of maturity!

I do think that he is onto something real... many mentors have been doing this a long time and have a strong prejudice against someone new who thinks they're a hot-shot (or acts like they think they're the next Einstein champion). I've seen many people with a slight bit of immaturity get some serious red dots and negative posts just because they aren't in the "ChiefDelphi Group Think" world... and I've sometimes seen the highly experienced mentors from reputable teams with a "reputation beyond repute" get a lot more benefit of the doubt than I often think their post should receive.

I disagree.

I think many of "us motivated, mature mentors that embrace FIRST values" still often react with our feelings, play favorites, and are defensive about some/many things... not to mention the many adults in FIRST that don't necessarily embrace FIRST values and have the maturity you'd hope! I think, yes, we like to think we're highly empirical... but from my experience, many people claiming to be highly empirical and fact-driven are actually highly emotional and defensive.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I think it's become easier to be a student on CD as CD has matured me. When I first joined almost exactly a year ago, my posts were somewhat childish and I was told a few times from a lot of different people what should and shouldn't be said on here. As I've been on here, the reputation system and reading what other people say and how they say it has helped my posts become more thought out and higher quality stuff. I think the biggest thing is if you join, don't be scared away. Feel free to PM some frequent flyers on this site and ask them about what should and shouldn't be said. Most of them would be more than willing to help. Remember that not everyone is perfect (but this shouldn't be used as an excuse either!). I know I sometimes slip up every once in a while and say something that shouldn't have been said or should have been said in a better way. About a month ago, I said something that was received as completely different than I meant it to say. Looking back at it, I saw how people received it in a negative way. Just try to cut out those situations by reading your post from all angles before you post it.

Don't be afraid to write a post for 15 minutes and then not post it. I've done that before many times. I tend to read my posts 4 or 5 times before I post them. When I first joined, I never reread my posts and said some really really odd stuff.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Oh, I definitely am way too connected and definitely made quite a few useless posts when I first got here. At this point I try to make my posts as productive as possible and definitely stay out of situations when I do not feel I have anything good to say.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Nathan - What you posted here isn't disagreement, unless you are trying to say that a non-trivial population of the sort of CD user Jesse described simply doesn't exist.

You both can easily be right. Many CD users can fall into Jesse's camp and many can fall into the one you described.

I think you are both right enough, and that you both are describing a part of the total CD universe.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Ill give you some examples (I wish I could go back and get all of mine but a lot of the comical ones are gone)

Here are some recent ones
The 2056 Streak has... 04-02-2016 11:19 PM - they still won
like what?

or

pic: Rookie Mistake 03-28-2016 11:18 PM rambling post and bragging
The "bragging" was me saying that I read the manual a lot.
Side note on this one the person who redded me also redded a person in F4 for no real reason and even PM'ed me recently because he could not red me again.

Here is what you should use it for
Negative reputation should be given if the person is posting something that detracts from the conversation. If the post is rude, inappropriate, breaks forum rules, is not gracious, etc; these are all good reasons to give negative reputation. If you have a personal grudge with someone, their team, etc, is it not appropriate to give them negative reputation for no reason. Giving negative reputation because you don't agree with what was said is not an appropriate use of the reputation system. People are entitled to their own opinions, and just because you don't agree doesn't mean the user was wrong or not contributing to the conversation.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Gray dots?

Again I like the dot system for the most part. I think a quick PM reminding someone that what they said is out of line may be the better way to handle the situation sometimes.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Personally I never give red rep, only grey, because I can never be sure if I'm contradicting an opinion, tone, or just facts. I've been tempted to give red once or twice, but it's just not worth it.
I don't have a lot of rep for my posts because many of my posts are just "great robot! I have some questions...", because I feel like giving compliments isn't really a wasted post.
Students are the ones who need the red rep the least, especially because many times they just don't know any better. The killers are the "mentor built robot blah blah" kids who just picked that up from their own teams. I know my team has had a huge bias against powerhouse teams for several years, and only recently has the leadership been able to lessen it. I can see many of the students, who are great in other ways, mess up by repeating that sentiment online.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

When I was still a student, I didn't post very much on Chief Delphi because of the community's fixation with etiquette. The thing that brings us all here is FRC, so I expected more focus on robotics content. In the world of internet forums, CD is kind of like a staunch country club.

I still hold that opinion, but now I'm older and don't care as much about how other people on the internet think, so I just post about robots and try not to worry too much.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'm pretty sure this has been something that people have complained about on CD for a long time. It isn't limited to "kids these days." There's probably some interesting psychology stuff going on that I don't have the expertise to comment on.

Yup. Technical people love to think we're being objective all or most of the time, but we're just as susceptible to pointless "holy wars" as anyone else.

Real life example: You know those clothespins people pin to each other at competition? I hate them. Specifically I hate it when I'm in a conversation and no less than three separate people pin me. Is it a logical response to get angry at this? Not really. They're just pins. Still, I got worked up about this enough that I actually raised my voice to tell a student to stop it. Not really one of my finer moments, but for the rest of the tournament I just kept any of the pins people put on me on my hat, and moved on with my life, because it's entirely pointless to worry about some pieces of wood when my drive team needs to talk to our partners next match. I could think up a half dozen reasons to validate my frustration, but at the end of the day, they would just make me feel better at myself and put me further out of touch. Sometimes it's worth reconsidering why you're frustrated and either moving on or changing your tactics.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

When I was a student, I don't recall having a difficult time on CD with the rep system or being taken seriously. For the most part, I just asked questions for help, with the occasional strategy and team organization question. The majority of my posts actually come from Fantasy FIRST. I think Eric Leifermann has a good point though, and today's social media and sites like reddit that are popular with high school students tend to have a lot of constantly refreshing content. When I was a student, i used to browse and "lurk" CD a lot, which I think is perfectly acceptable and, in fact, is a good way of understanding how to post properly and effectively in the community.

The best advice I could give to a student who is making their CD account is to just read the discussions going on and have an open mind before posting; this way the students can understand how discussions happen and how to contribute to the discussion.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

CD is a community, and like any community it has its own culture. Unlike most communities, it's a tremendously easy one to join.

There's some impetus on the community-joiner to observe and acclimate (and/or deliberately not acclimate), and some impetus on the community to be welcoming.

Welcome to the wide world of human interaction, forum-style.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Herein lies the reason reputation flies around all willy-nilly going nimbly-bimbly from tree to tree*. It's merely a example from your post but it can easily be generalized to many who post on CD.

Who is "you"?
Why isn't this predicated as your opinion? Stating it as fact shows lack of humility and ignorance to the possibility you may be wrong.

*Super Troopers reference...

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I find people rarely give out negative reputation unless it's deserved. Occasionally a large group will all give deserved negative reputation to a person. But most of the time CD-ers give the benefit of the doubt in my opinion.

If you find yourself getting a lot of negative rep, I'd say it's probably you, and not the system that needs to be fixed.

I'm not going to pretend everything I've ever posted has been productive or as mature as it could be. But if you don't proofread, if you don't format your post in a readable way, and if you don't contribute to the discussion, I see no reason why people shouldn't give out more negative reputation than they do now.

Learning to deal with criticism, learning to discuss things in a civil manner in a way that is readable- these are lessons that CD can help teach students. I know it did for me.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Because it was quote from a FAQ http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/fa...reputation_faq

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

+1

The dot system works well when it's used correctly. The example you gave in the OP was a good use of the dot system. You made a post that breaks the community rules (i.e. insulting a team by calling their robot mentor-built), and you got red dotted. That led you change your ways, and now you have fully reformed.

In these examples, the dot system was not being used properly. Small mistakes (especially when they aren't mistakes) or differences in opinion don't warrant a red dot. Maybe just a grey dot or PM.

To give another example, in one post I called the cheval de frise the "shovel the fries". Is this the correct name? No. Should I have called it that? Probably not. Does it deserve a red dot? Definitely not. A PM asking me to call it the right name would have done just as much good. Thankfully, I'm pretty thick-skinned and this didn't turn me off CD, but if I were a new poster with little experience it could have very well made me never want to post again.

tl:dr the dot system is fine, our use of it might not be

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

How do have a good experience on CD as a student:

1. Don't be afraid to be wrong....
2. ...but keep an open mind and welcome new perspectives.
3. Rep is just dots.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I really do like when kids are advocate for themselves. Sperkowsky - nice job.

And don't worry, mentors post stupid stuff too (just look at my history) - I have had to get a crow bar to remove the foot from my mouth sometimes.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

These type of posts on CD are tough ones to comment on. TBH I never noticed the dots/rep system. I do know that people on here tend to get "judgy" when one of the royalty is questioned. This happens with pretty good reason overall, but it does make it one of the least welcoming online forums I have ever been part of. Which struck me as very odd because these same people giving kids a hard time about asking a dumb question are the same ones that will hand that same kid $1,000 worth of shop equipment just to help them compete.

The FIRST community is just plain incredible, it doesn't always translate well into how CD treats newcomers. Personally I never really had much of an issue one way or the other, but I have seen people get truly and completely roasted (usually it seems tempers tend to flare more when we have a boring game, this year I haven't seen as much of that).

Just my 2 cents.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Keep up the work on the F4 show. It shows lots of promise, as a mentor it is a bit hard for me to watch as the show get lost in individual off topic chats, but that is the nature of passionate young adults. :D

My experience as a mentor on joining CD.

I was a lurker on CD for well over a year, more like two, before creating an account.

As a rookie FRC mentor I was very hesitant to start posting, I felt that I wasn't in the position to post due to my lack of FRC knowledge. There are, as you know, so many talented and knowledgeable people on here that I didn't want to embarrass myself, or worse, my team.

Searching through CD was more cumbersome due to the image verification, but I pressed through because all the vast knowledge hidden here is well worth it.

I have been doing competitive robotics for several years before we created our FRC team. Mostly FLL, MATE-ROV and Vex.
Even with the experience of competing at the Internationals in ROV with easily the youngest team ever to compete (middle school) for four straight years, I was still very hesitant to join and post.

I was convinced by the students to start showcasing our designs. Crude and mostly functional they were, but I wanted to support their achievements. Since there were only 3 teams on this side of the island (big island) all started at the same time,(Thanks Waialua!), and never posting, it was time to step up.

The reputation system I just ignore for the most part. Partly as I didn't really understand it very well and I didn't feel qualified to give rep.

Yes it would be nice to have lots of green dots, but is that the reason to be posting? No way..

In the beginning of my road to posting on CD I just wrote and submitted. Bad idea, thankfully you can edit some mistakes, but if you hurt someone's feeling no editing will repair that.

Learning to write your post in a text editor and proof read, and if heated, taking the time to cool off and reread and edit is crucial.

Yes being the first to answer a question that you actually know the answer to can be a great feeling, like you are actually contributing.

Taking the time to verify your post is contributing, pro or con to the topic, in a respectful and meaningful way, is what earns your CD reputation, dots or not..

Aloha!

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I just wanted to post and say CD has certainly been part of my growth, as a student, volunteer and mentor. Reflecting on my first post ever, which began:
People being patient with me to teach me was definitely a motive for me to mentor now.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

It's nice to know I'm not the only one. :D
It's interesting to see how a conversation presumably about students on CD is more of a conversation about rep points.

Story time: I had never gotten rep before when Karthik gave me positive rep. For some reason, going from one green dot to four green dots was very satisfying, so I started posting regularly.

Even if "they're just dots," they're a status symbol. Unlike "upvotes" or "likes" or whatever else, the reputation you get is displayed on all of your posts. It's not like Facebook shows you how many "likes" your friends have gotten over the years. So, big green bars are tied to people that other people respect, and people with red bars are shunned. This is good in concept because it makes for an obvious indicator of who is experienced and who is not. The problem is that it also creates a rather toxic environment where every post is defined by the poster, instead of the content of the post itself. It also allows people who are mad at something they read on the internet to make other people sad because of some red and green dots on a screen.

Reputation is so superficial, but so permanent. It still irks me that when you hover over my rep it says "brilliant future" instead of "reputation beyond repute," and if that isn't superficial, I don't know what is. Ideally, people would give reputation based on the quality of a post, but it's natural for people to give negative rep to posts they disagree with. I've been a victim of this, and, although I try not to do it, I'm sure I've given biased rep before, too. I think there's some people on CD who show more restraint than others in what they post and what they give rep to, but the vast majority of people conduct themselves as well as people can.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Glad I am not the only one.

I finally broke through to beyond repute and had 2250 pts and then someone redded me. Oh well maybe tomorrow. ;)

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

One way to know the Rep system should be taken with a huge grain of salt, is noticing that it claims my reputation is Beyond Repute.

That ain't right. I need to post controversial stuff more often. ;)

Blake
PS: To any shy rookies: A post that begins with this sort of opening is almost always received well by readers: "I am trying to learn ____. I searched in ___, and ___, using keywords ___, ___, and ___, but I came up empty / confused / still wanting to know more. Who can point me to a good source for learning what I need to know?"

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Dude, even MINE is beyond repute. I don't think anyone that knows me would say that. And it's not like I shy away from posting controversial stuff.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I've got to say, I'm slightly surprised. I feel like I see you in exclusively controversial threads.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

To be entirely fair, the original post you're claiming matches the FAQ quote you cite as reasons for red reputation.

It's a bit awkward to claim this isn't necessary and look for ways to "fix" something that isn't broken. If reputation is the least "safe" thing about the environment for students, it's a pretty safe place.

I'm not sure about others. I don't read the information under your name. I read your post. I won't know if you're a student or a mentor with decades of experience. I'll see the content. I'm not sure if others take the time to read through all of that before considering your point. That sounds like a lot of work.

It's likely your perception is biased towards "they don't agree with me. It must be because I'm a student" because that's easier to accept than "they don't like what I have to say." As what you say includes more substance, it'll get more positive attention, even when people disagree.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I was stuck at 6-7 dots for the longest time, then someone you all know gave me a green with the comment "Ahahahaha" and now I'm "beyond repute" (hahaha yeah right). So, the moral of the story is, it really doesn't matter, even though I still care about it way too much.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Hey, I would just re-read everything a little more carefully. I admitted that I used to post stuff completely out of line and used that as an example where the rep system works.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Why would you describe rookies as hot-shots? In the real world, some of the greatest innovations have been from rookies who saw a problem with the way things were being done and fixed it. Check out these quotes from experts in their fields. Rookies change the world.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'm certainly not saying all rookies are what I was trying to describe with "hot shots." In fact VERY few are what I was trying to describe. I don't have anything against successful rookies or highly innovative rookies (or the rookies that are barely fielding a robot).

What I was trying to describe, were the young teams who seem to think that since they had a great match or won an event they should be at the top of everyone's perspective as the challenger to 1114, 254, 2056, or 148. Then they start commenting on LF posts, FRC top 25 threads, etc. that they should be in the spotlight... and honestly, I'm excited for those young successful teams, but my excitement for them often gets lost in my frustration with their obsession with their own success or their overestimation of their performance. Maybe the fault is really just with me being bothered by it.

That said, I can relate well to the teams that feel like they're performing well above the reputation they have in FRC at the regional or global level. When 1519 was a young team we had some success in our early years, more success around 2008 through 2010, then growing success afterward... and it takes a long time to become perceived as a successful team, particularly when you get to CMP and are trying to be picked by strong alliances. Partly, one just needs to learn that the ability to perform consistently at a high level is what separates the top tier from the tier that can sometimes perform nearly as well... and partly one needs to learn that building a reputation takes time.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I don't think it's hard to be a student on CD.

I think it's hard to communicate clearly, especially on the internet.

How you say something is often just as important as what you say.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Yeah, it's quite difficult when you don't have body language and tone of voice. The internet also happens to be a cruel and unforgiving place.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

This isn't really a student problem. It's a "people who say things that aren't productive problem" It's just that in general students have less maturity and are more prone to saying things that shouldn't really be said.

I mean... Welcome to real life. Your actions have consequences and you aren't a child anymore. These things happen in real life too. You should care about what effect the words that come out of your mouth. You shouldn't care so much that you avoid productive discussion in fear of saying something incorrect.

Ultimately like others have said, it's just dots. If you are here on CD to have lots of dots on a screen or be famous within the FIRST community, I think you are here for the wrong reasons.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Something that can be useful for everyone to keep in mind is that the English language is imperfect. My message start off as thoughts in my head which I then put into words via my keyboard. Someone else then interprets these words and from them creates thoughts in their heads. Are they thinking what I was thinking when I formed the words? It's doubtful. Body language and vocal tone can help in these situations, but we don't have that on CD. There is a currently active thread that seems to be having a good number of issues with this. If you feel that someone is not respecting you, feel free to send them a pm as to try to get better communication.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Just curious do not take this the wrong way. Were either you active on chiefdelphi as students. I should say I am not the only one with these feelings I have had over 10 students say the same thing.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Yes. I was.

Like I said, many students don't really have the maturity to post productive/have constructive conversations. (even though some of them may think that they do)

Honestly that goes for mentors/adults too. I am aware of many students who felt 100% comfortable on CD.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Again don't take this the wrong way but I notice you didnt start a thread until 2013 once you were already a mentor. Was the reason for this?

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'm not really sure what the original post was about. It sounds like you made a thread praising the redeeming powers of the reputation plugin that the forum has.

In reply to your title, if you need the validation of everyone around you, being anyone involved in any arena of discussion will be hard. It's a forum on the internet. Some people aren't going to like what you say and others are going to be rude about it.

People also say stupid things. If this thread was started in reference to the replies you got for this post, it surely wasn't personal. If you say something stupid and a mentor calls you out on it, it doesn't mean that mentors on Chief Delphi are prejudice against students. It just means you made a dumb comment.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Actually I did not get flamed too bad for the past. Didn't even get a red dot until after I started this thread.

I still hold to that statement it was just taken out of context.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

From my experiences I don’t think it is particularly hard to be a student on CD, you just need to realise where you are capable of contributing to the discussion effectively and the areas in which you might not be able to.

For me I find I am confident in lots of the technical discussions, about part use, how to make this work etc. But I refrain from some discussions. I find it is really important that if you are going to post something about a contentious issue or something that could be taken differently to how you intended it that you need to be careful. I often type up my posts in MS Word, and will make 2 or 3 revisions before I am comfortable to post it. Even then I might send the post to one of my team mates, to have a read through and check or a mentor if I feel that it is necessary. I made a bad decision in the past, not on CD but in an email. It is very easy to write something you don’t want too, when you are tired, stressed or feel like something has really upset you. It is extremely easy to click send, before realising that you shouldn’t have sent it. I find that it is best to type it up, then maybe leave it until the next morning or a few hours and have a read over it. Maybe someone else might have expressed your view point in a better way, or maybe you’ll realise that it isn’t the best thing to send or post.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Exactly. One of the things I am constantly reminding myself of is that I am a part of an internet community, even after being an active CD poster for 1+ years and a lurker several years prior. Everybody's gonna scrutinize your every word, and occasionally you'll get that one person who is having a rough day and didn't like what you said or felt hurt by it and will give you some negative rep. Unfortunately, like referee mistakes, unwarranted red dots are part of the experience. However, how you deal with situations like that - like what Sam has done here - is what gives you positive rep, and in my opinion that builds character and is also a part of the experience of FIRST. Calmly realizing that what you said was wrong and sending an apology or even asking some of the CD veterans (BrendanB comes to mind for me) whether or not they thought your post was inflammatory is always better than starting a red dot conflict.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I actually tell a lot of students to be careful when posting on Chief Delphi because as much as those dots mean nothing, they still reflect on the team.
In other words you can make your team look bad for whatever reason someone feels like be it that they felt you could be nicer, or that you made a mistake on a fact.
Either way I've noticed chief delphi is great for advice and trouble shooting, but I tell students not to try and get a big conversation going because it can get heated. I've tried to start conversations that I am legitimately interested in, and that I am trying to be neutral in, only for someone to come in with a "this is how it is end of thread" which for a curious student can be earth shattering, but as an adult it is just a whatever.
My recent example is you hear a lot about the pros and cons of bag and tag, and I tried having a discussion where I wanted to talk about what shift would happen (if any) if bag and tag was removed. Wasn't trying to say it was a good idea, wasn't trying to say it was a bad idea, I just wanted to know what chief delphi thought, it wasn't a very long lasting conversation...

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

CD is quite different than most of the Internet, in that we enforce civility (and grammar and spelling and...). But not just for the sake of doing it*, but to (try to) help some realize that unprofessional expression is not conducive to, er, professionalism. If you write like an idiot, your career can be jeopardized: Learn here, not after it counts for a lot.
Indeed, but with effort one can communicate very subtle nuances. It just takes a high level of literacy. English can be an exceptionally precise language.

*Well, most of us don't

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

In my opinion, CD provides an environment that is different than the normal mentoring of students. The biggest thing is that in my team/community, I am physically looking at a student when I talk to them, so my mind just "goes" to a mentoring type conversation.

On CD, unless it is explicitly stated in the post such that I can't miss it, I honestly don't always check "Team Role" to see if I'm talking to a mentor or student, though I might try to do so more often. Therefore, many students might get feedback as though an adult were talking to an adult, without as much of a filter.

I can see benefits of this for students, as you get into the "real world" and this feedback style will quickly become the norm for you, but I also agree that CD could be considered as less welcoming at times than would be desired, which could keep students from wanting to join.

I will echo the earlier comments that the original post has merit, and though it isn't the first time to be brought up, it is worth discussing the impact of the CD culture on students. You appear to have grown a lot and are contributing in a net positive way to the CD community, both through an increased quality of posts and efforts like your F4 show. You will likely face resistance if you push too hard for "others to change", but you could certainly impact the culture over time by continuing to set an example of how to make the board more welcoming.

Finally, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but for any others reading, I typically consider it proper etiquette to double check with the sender of a PM before posting it to a public audience. It is the equivalent to recording a conversation with someone (off the record), and posting it on YouTube without their permission. It's easy to stave off any questions by noting on the quoted PM that you double checked with the author for permission to repost, as you thought the feedback had value for a wider audience.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I was a student in 2013. Also you don't need to make threads to be an active person on CD. Sometimes I think we even have too many repeat/nonsensical/boring ones.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Ah I see where I missed some stuff. I mistook you switching teams with switching roles.

Thanks for the clarification.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

This seems like a terrible idea, considering how vague and non-specific the "this" and "life" in your post was. Ignorance to the multitude of meanings does not mean you aren't accountable for them in peoples' minds.

Your real reputation is not a set of dots in the User CP. It is measured by little nuances, such as whether people listen to you rather than constantly interrupt, correct, troll, or otherwise ignore you.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Speaking of grammar, and literacy...

I don't know why it took me so long to notice, but earlier today when I was quoting what the CD reputation system says about me, I did notice this: Saying someone has "a reputation of being beyond reproach" makes sense; but saying they have "a reputation beyond repute" is complete nonsense, even worse than the famous "all your base are belong to us".

And it's not just a CD typo, apparently many reputation systems use the same phrase (all stemming from some original mistake?).

Regardless, I really, really hope the CD admins can fix that phrase.

Blake
PS: Admins - If anyone offers to pay to have it left the way it is, just to annoy me; let me know what they offer, so that I have a chance to outbid them.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

One box of Krispy Kremes? :P

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

2 pies of NY Pizza.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'm a student.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Ok Sam,
I went to give you a green dot because I thought this was a refreshing thread after so many robot related ones. But I find that I have given you too much already because I was told I had to spread them around.

Here is a true story. When I first signed on to CD, I didn't post for a long time. I watched what others had written and started a few responses but never submitted. Then something made me take the plunge. The rest is history.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

New York pizza, are you trying to lose? I'll offer 47 cents.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Sperkowsky,

My rookie year seems to have paralleled yours in many ways. Being the naïve freshman that I was, liked to brag, I wanted to tell others off, I came very close to revealing a robot feature my team wasn't prepared to release, thought it was acceptable to post my incorrect interpretation of rules as fact etc. One amusing instance is when a team asked how to power a 18v 775 at 18 volts, without thinking I simply just said that nothing could exceed 12 volts on the robot so it wasn't necessary. Of course that isn't the case, but younger me didn't think checking was important. Basically I earned a negative rep (just how much you may ask? enough that after 300+ posts, I still have a single dot) and a teammate had to set me straight. I was very appreciative of this and have tried to be a good spokesperson for the team since. I'm sure I still make mistakes, but I'm only human.

As far as being a student on CD, I don't think it's all that bad. Students have to be open to criticism. Mentors on CD serve the exact same purpose here as they do in life: to teach, be it robots or social. Many mentors joined CD well after having made some of the same mistakes we do, the difference is that they've learned from them so they know what not to do now. Everyone has to learn at some point and sometimes it ends up being humiliating. (I'd imagine people learn quicker the more awkward it feels) A good rule to follow in discussions is "would I say this to a judge/mother/grandma?" if you answer yes, you can likely be safe. Sure, there will still be critics, but that's a given. If answering no, strongly reconsider. Take a few minutes to consider what you want to say and how it will be taken when you say it. Use that preview post button! 9/10 times I have to fix something. (Including this one) ((2 times.)) (((and still had to go back and make an edit)))

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Me neither. I must have padded my stats with Caption Contest rep. :cool:

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

You can post controversial stuff and get away with it fairly often.

The trick is HOW you post it. And that's the hard part. I'm willing to bet that with proper care, you could post a thread on the most sensitive topics in FRC (like... eh, just to pick one, the dreaded student-mentor debate) and have a constructive discussion. The catch, of course, is that proper care. Most people don't take that kind of care...



A quick note on the rep system: I don't give negative rep. I can't say that I haven't thought about dishing some out, but you've got to be a special kind of ______ for me to reach for the red rep button, and usually I figure enough folks have beaten me to it that I don't need to. However, I also don't give out a lot of positive rep. Or neutral rep. (Neutral rep, IMO, is useful for a quick, short warning message--a shot across the bow, if you will--that someone is borderline. It also helps fend you off of them...by forcing you to rep a bunch of other people if you really want to dose the red.) My general philosophy is "with great power comes great responsibility", and because of that I'm just as likely to PM as to rep.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

As a student, there is nothing better than a PM from a mentor about a controversial thing that was posted. It's a whole lot better than getting publicly shamed in a post by someone quoting you in a reply and saying their issue with the post in public. I've gotten a few PMs about posts which have led me to edit the post or delete these posts. That's a great way to fix an issue. Quoting an issue and then addressing the poster in a negative way in a reply is just unproductive, embarrassing, and prolongs the issue (and sometimes hurts feelings but that isn't super usual). So to get to my point, thanks so much for PMing. Not quoting and replying in public.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Unless you post a WAI photo or frame a post in terms of your role on your team, I am likely to be unaware whether you are a student or mentor or alumnus or otherwise. I realize I may be in the minority there, but I can't really comment on the student-vs-mentor issue in too much detail.

The reputation system is better than nothing, and better than some other systems, but far from perfect. Most of my rep points seem to come from a handful of reps given by individuals on the first and second pages of the rep sheet (sort members by reputation). The ones that I like the most are those with comments like "Suggestion worked 100% Thank you so much!", even if they're only worth a few points.

Negative and neutral reps with a decent explanation are good at reminding one to read and/or think about posts before replying. There have also been a few times where the same post has drawn both positive and negative rep; that is always amusing.

Negative reps which seem to come out of the blue, with meaningless explanations or from people who read something into a post that isn't there (even when I look for it) are useless. If I don't know what I did wrong, how can I fix it?

Heretofore, I have only given 15 reps in 28 months, all positive. I have sent a similar number of PMs on negative issues. I will probably begin giving rep points a bit more often, taking care to explain why.

Finally, I am against changing "reputation beyond repute" to "reputation above reproach". The one that's there is a bit silly, but the proposed change is too strong for the number of people with that rating.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

Any forum site that uses the default vBulletin reputation system and didn't change the phrases would have this error you are mentioning.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I like gray dots. They are a good option.

Mentors receive green, red, and gray dots. I've collected quite a few of all of them. The gray ones are the ones that I look to for information and clarity. Many good private discussions have come about because of the gray dot option. I have also had meaningful discussions from the red and green dot options, as well.

Hopefully, like being on a team, CD is a learning curve for many. Especially those who are committed to being passionate and engaged members. The cool thing about students is the growth aspect of being a team member and a member of CD. That is a given for this community. What is not a given and should be paid more attention to, is the growth and development of mentors. Mentoring, like robot design, is an opportunity for continual development and practical application in all aspects of the teams, programs, and in the CD community.

As you can point out your growth in participating in this forum - so can many mentors. It is a learning curve for everyone. Some of us can tend to forget that.

Jane

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

I'd like to provide some insight on this too - I've started 11 threads since I joined in 2007. Three christmas card exchanges, 4 WAIs, 2 other CD-Media threads, and an article from CNN. I don't feel the need to start threads because my questions can usually be answered by the rulebook, Q&A, Google, or a friend who's a better-suited engineer than I am (I'm a materials engineer who does primarily mechanical work in FRC - physics isn't my thing). I don't CAD (anymore) or design gearboxes/drivetrains/etc or program or think about intricate strategic scenarios or enjoy stat analysis, which is what most of the technical discussion on here is about. Most of my posts as a student were caption contest entries, occasional event discussion, and non-technical discussion (in threads like this). For me, when I was a student and still now as a mentor, it has nothing to do with how I feel I the community will receive my posts, I just don't have anything to discuss/ask. But, I do read constantly, use the search function frequently, and have learned A LOT over the past several years.

I see many students posting regularly with confidence. I also have spoken with many students off-line about how they just read and don't post, because they're worried they'll be met with aggression (some stating that they're worried it will reflect poorly on their team). CD has changed a lot since I was a student, so I can only comment based on what I've heard expressed by current students.

When I was doing this year's christmas card exchange, I had a PM discussion with a student, I suggested that one of us post about the discussion in the thread, and they responded that they would rather I make the post because "You're a mentor so you're less likely to be yelled at by stricter members". That is an exact quote.

That is NOT the kind of environment we want here, and I think that this is the perception a lot of students have of CD (hence, this thread). I can't blame students for not wanting to be yelled at by adults. However, outside of the controversial threads, I think we do a pretty good job of being courteous and respectful of each other. Spelling mistakes, etc. aren't nit-picked as much, emotions aren't flying, help is provided where needed and questions are answered. Unfortunately, the controversial topics are the ones that tend to bring out the argumentative side in a lot of people, and those are the threads that get the most visibility. I think is primarily what gives CD a bad rap. I think that the other contributor is that I see student posts ignored in large discussion threads, which can give off an impression of exclusivity - that CD is just for mentors who know what they're talking about. A lot of posts get ignored and not responded to for a lot of reasons (post doesn't lead itself to further discussion, not actually relevant, etc), but if it's a repeated experience, I can see how students would feel unwelcome.

This also isn't limited to just students - I've spoken with a lot of mentors who feel the same way as the students.

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

<Chuckle>

Well, this thread has filled up quickly!

When I got involved with FRC I thought it was about encouraging more young people to explore a future in Science, Technology and Engineering related fields.

And yeah, it kind of is... but it is also about encouraging young people who have already decided to go into those fields to improve their communication and teamwork skills. In a lot of ways, I've found this second point to be more meaningful.

A very important thing to learn about communications is that when a thought is expressed in writing that it is both very permanent, and also independent from the intent with which it was said. It lacks the context of the wry tone of voice, the frustrated expression... all of those cues that say, "even though I'm saying this thing, I don't really mean it in a negative way".

So it is very, very important when writing in a public space (it matters anywhere, but particularly in a public space) to be very clear about what you are writing and ensure that it expresses your best intent.

Expressing oneself clearly and professionally in writing is just as important a skill as being able to use CAD, or run a mill. In fact, it is probably more important in the long run.

CD, being popular with a number of experienced mentors, does a good job of encouraging clear, professional, communication. That doesn't make it hard to be a student... but it does make it hard to be careless, or lazy in one's approach to communication.

And that is an important part of the competitive robotics learning experience.

Jason

Re: Why it is sometimes hard to be a student on CD.
 

^This.

EVERY online forum has its share of trolls & snipers. (see:Reddit)

CD has more provenance than most, however, we see the same dynamic here that plays out within our teams where mentors may dominate the tenor & direction of "discussions", & "conversations".