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-   -   Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147178)

adciv 15-04-2016 11:31

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1573301)
So far so good. I'm concerned about volunteer burnout. The extra layer of competitions to get to World's, more directly the added cost, is annoying as all get out.

Burnout is my concern (as someone who has spent more time since the season started working on robots than at work). OCD? Nah....:p That said, the 2 day competitions are easier to handle than the regionals due to the reduced time off from work. Also, it tends to be cheaper for us since we only put the team in hotels for one night per qualifier. We also love the extra matches we get to play.

Side note, the extra matches at the regionals are really hard on our robot and we are iterating designs for durability (and reparability). 56 matches and counting at three events...

PayneTrain 15-04-2016 12:01

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1573411)
This is something that I brought up to some people on the CHS planning committee. They know it is a problem and they will be attempting to fix it. I suggested maybe training some mentors of the teams at the events to be inspectors on Day 0 of the events. This is something I would be willing to do.

Yeah, if we all (all parties) connected the dots, it would have been pretty easy to get alumni to just come wear a yellow hat on Friday at Blacksburg (home of VT) and help pull some teams through inspection really quick. We have a couple to-be and current alumni going to VT that will very likely be able and willing to take this route if the message can be communicated to them in a timely manner. We can't exactly train a B-team of FTAs overnight but we can get some inspectors, judges, and referee people trained up and ready to go if someone can point them.

Mr V 15-04-2016 12:09

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Kaurich (Post 1573403)
There are also a lot of changes that happen with some of the roles. IE, Robot Inspection. It is crucial to have more inspectors on hand for Day 0 at the earlier week events. There isn't nearly as much time as there is at a regional to get teams through an inspection process. This role can be filled by mentors who are at the competition with their team and then shift to being with their team full time the rest of the event.

We are hoping some mentors will be willing to be trained as Inspectors on their own robot before the season starts so they know what the LRI is training inspectors to be on the look out for and how to teach their students how to build a better robot. Hopefully this is successful and is a win/win for both our teams and the events.

Yes my suggestion for RIs is to have one for aprox every 3 teams for day 0. Usually that does end up as a bit of overkill with an inspector or two that may only fully inspect one robot. It also means that they have time to keep checking in with and helping their own team if necessary. Many of the inspectors are then done on day 0. Some do move on to other roles, I've got a few that will inspect day 0 and then move on to another role for day 1 and 2.

Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1573410)
[b]

I have emailed Frank and asked about official inter-district play being opened between the districts. With MAR, CHS, and NC all right next to each other this seems like the prime location to pilot this. Teams could compete at any district events they want but earn points towards their own DCMP. This would help alleviate seeing the same teams over and over again. It would also allow teams on the edges of their districts(like 1629) to travel to events that are in other districts but may be closer than any of their own districts events.

Franks response said that this has been brought up to the district leaders and was voted down. If this is something that you may be interested in doing please talk to your own districts and try to convince them that this is something the teams in your district could benefit from. I will be talking to Stan about it in detail. Frank said the topic would be brought up again to be discussed.

I asked Frank when/if it would happen as well when I talked with him at the PNW DCMP. The Unified District Points system was created in part to allow that points portability. Personally I'm for it though being in the PNW I don't think we would see a lot of teams doing that. However for those on the east coast where there are now several districts so close together I do see this as a way to make it easier on teams that are near the boarders and encourage a little more inter-district play.


I can also see why it could cause some logistical issues and why Districts may be hesitant to allow the points portability. The question becomes exactly how you do the registration. The District's top priority should be to ensure that teams within their boarder are able to play at an event in their boarder. The number of spaces/events they plan for are based on the number of teams in their area. So do you make teams that want to travel wait until 3rd event registration? Now it seems that they will still want to register for 2 events in their home district and then hope they find a spot later. Do some of those teams then drop one of their home events because they only wanted to play two? Is one district overwhelmed by teams that want to visit while another has trouble filling an event because the teams they expected to want to attend an event go outside the district?

Points portability does eliminate the possibility of teams getting a practice event before or between their events that count. Currently teams can buy a practice event at an early event in another district. I feel that is counter to the spirit of the District system which I believe is partially intended to level the playing field between the well funded teams and those that are not well funded. However it is still better than the Regional system where the teams that can afford another $4000 entry fee and potentially travel costs get to buy a second chance at qualifying for CMP.

So like anything there are pros and cons to either choice. I was an early supporter of points portability, but I do think there may need to be a little more discussion on exactly how it should work to ensure that it doesn't cause a lot of headaches for the district organizers. I also don't want to see a team pushed out of an event in their own District to accommodate a team from another District. So I'm still a supporter of points portability with the reservation that it needs to be carefully thought out to avoid the potential problems.

346CADmen 15-04-2016 12:47

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1573301)
I would love an option of, "The jury is still out on Districts."

So far so good. I'm concerned about volunteer burnout. The extra layer of competitions to get to World's, more directly the added cost, is annoying as all get out.

So far would say I like it. Team used to do two regional events , one travel 6 hrs and hotel, the other 20 min. travel no hotel. Districts, one 4 hrs.+hotel, one 1 hr. no hotel, district champ. +3 hrs. + hotel. Increased costs will be an issue.

Another I see, kids missing more school (6 days in April). CHS should have more Sat. Sun. events. Agree with volunteer burnout, maybe not this year but when?

notmattlythgoe 15-04-2016 12:53

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr V (Post 1573491)
So like anything there are pros and cons to either choice. I was an early supporter of points portability, but I do think there may need to be a little more discussion on exactly how it should work to ensure that it doesn't cause a lot of headaches for the district organizers. I also don't want to see a team pushed out of an event in their own District to accommodate a team from another District. So I'm still a supporter of points portability with the reservation that it needs to be carefully thought out to avoid the potential problems.

I completely agree. A well thought out system would definitely need to be put in place to make sure it does not cause problems for teams inside of their own district. Since several spots are reserved at registration just like they are at regionals I think that would alleviate many of the issues already. I think the key now is getting the district heads to be open to the idea so those discussions can happen.

notmattlythgoe 15-04-2016 12:59

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 346CADmen (Post 1573500)
So far would say I like it. Team used to do two regional events , one travel 6 hrs and hotel, the other 20 min. travel no hotel. Districts, one 4 hrs.+hotel, one 1 hr. no hotel, district champ. +3 hrs. + hotel. Increased costs will be an issue.

Another I see, kids missing more school (6 days in April). CHS should have more Sat. Sun. events. Agree with volunteer burnout, maybe not this year but when?

Weren't all but two of the CHS events Sat-Sun? So far total our kids have missed a total of 2.5 days of school. At this point in the season previously they would have missed 5.

EricLeifermann 15-04-2016 13:03

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1573509)
Weren't all but two of the CHS events Sat-Sun? So far total our kids have missed a total of 2.5 days of school. At this point in the season previously they would have missed 5.

And thats just the kids, now look at the mentors who didn't have to take 5 days of vacation.....That's huge, my wife might actually talk to me(joking) during build if i didn't have to use all my vacation going to comps.

Michael Kaurich 15-04-2016 13:05

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1573509)
Weren't all but two of the CHS events Sat-Sun?

Yes. The only events that were not Sat/Sun occurred over a school break for most school systems. A lot of this is due to when CHS can get into the venue. High Schools tend to like the Sat/Sun arrangement.

wilsonmw04 15-04-2016 13:06

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann (Post 1573511)
And thats just the kids, now look at the mentors who didn't have to take 5 days of vacation.....That's huge, my wife might actually talk to me(joking) during build if i didn't have to use all my vacation going to comps.

or those teachers who are taking 5 days out of class to do this. Not counting the 3 for Worlds!

346CADmen 15-04-2016 13:31

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1573509)
Weren't all but two of the CHS events Sat-Sun? So far total our kids have missed a total of 2.5 days of school. At this point in the season previously they would have missed 5.

Sorry, counting the load in day(s) and worlds. to reach that #.
Also kids are at the Engineering & Science expo in DC this week. While I suggested the trip after a visit 2 years ago, it falls during a tough time robotics wise.

Mr V 15-04-2016 13:35

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Kaurich (Post 1573512)
Yes. The only events that were not Sat/Sun occurred over a school break for most school systems. A lot of this is due to when CHS can get into the venue. High Schools tend to like the Sat/Sun arrangement.

It is interesting to note that for the first season in the PNW all of our events were Fri-Sat and that was at the request of the school/team. We gave the venue the choice. This season we had a mix of Fri-Sat and Sat-Sun events, again because that is what the venue wanted.

OccamzRazor 15-04-2016 14:04

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
I would vote district again and again. The level of competitive robots in NC has skyrocketed as a result of the change. It used to be that most teams in NC would register for the regional, play their 8 games, and then that was it if they did poorly plus they had very little time to learn and adjust. With a significant number of newer teams in the state, the regional model was difficult at best at producing competitive teams year after year. Not only that, teams from outside the state were coming in and getting a lot of the awards in the regional model because they had far more experience and resources than the majority of the teams in NC.

It took 2 years for a single NC team to win the NC Regional and that was 3506 during our rookie year as a last pick and we were aligned with two out of state teams....it was not by our own doing at all. That goes to say that it is now less competitive in the NC district model yet it is helping NC to be more competitive and I am curious to see what happens in years to come when this model produces some powerhouse teams and we flip the idea on its back that NC is not competitive.

With more plays, these teams get some time in between events to soak in information, make adjustments that they never had the chance to do, and it put them on the same level as the teams who could afford multiple plays in other regionals previously. I saw teams turn bricks into winning robots and I could feel the change, the energy, and the results were clear in that these teams were collectively better than they ever were before in the regional model.

We went to the NC&GA regionals last year and NC&OH regionals the year before that. 6 hour and 8 hour drives respectively outside of the NC state regional.

In districts both of our first qualifying events were 1.5 hours away and our third competition that did not count for district points was 3 hours away. State Championships was in our home town. This was absurdly cheaper and easier for us and we got more than twice as many matches out of it than our 4 previous regionals and Championship plays combined.

I think the change is immensely helpful and it will give NC an Einstein winning robot that it has not had since 2004.

Mr V 15-04-2016 14:29

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
I would love to hear from some of the people who voted I prefer the Regional System, and who have actually participated in the District system, why they prefer the Regional System or what they do not like about the District system.

That was my intention with the thread and poll, to create an open discussion for students and mentors to relate their experiences, give their preferences and reasons, whether it is Pro District or Pro Regional.

indieFan 15-04-2016 14:49

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
I have updated my attachment in post #6. I will continue to update as things come to me as a pro or con for Districts or Regionals.

PayneTrain 15-04-2016 15:16

Re: Calling all students and mentors from the CHS, NC, and PCH Districts
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04 (Post 1573513)
or those teachers who are taking 5 days out of class to do this. Not counting the 3 for Worlds!

...or the college students with spooky attendance policies.

Inter-District play is quite the can of worms. You have to answer a lot of tough questions and depending on the responses, you have to execute annoying solutions. "How much does equity matter in swapping for OOD spots? Should we re-evaluate how we award the CCAs at district events?"

I think the model would benefit from requiring that you a) play at least one event in your home system and b) any 2 events in your home system will be your points earning events, regardless of your OOD event.

Teams should be able to indicate interest in playing outside of your district system upon registration. Teams should then rank whichever events (or maybe just systems) in a preference order. Then the district systems can come out and say something like "CHS will be swapping 5 spots with NC and MAR, 2 with NE, and 2 with IN" based on the MUTUAL interest of inter-district play or something like that.

For CCAs, maybe consider awarding up to 2 EI and up to X DCAs per event, or whatever the district system allows for its final allocation?

I don't know what to do. I don't feel like it should be as simple as tearing down the walls and having an open season because it might cause some weird things to happen in the points. For instance, I'm pretty sure 238 would have qualified for NC states with their sole event in Asheville...


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