Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

This - this, my friends, is the reason that these issues have to be discussed. I remember when I received a call from a parent who had a student that was trying to understand their sexuality.

"Is it ok that they stay in a room with someone of their same gender - especially if they are attracted to them?"

This question, asked by a parent trying to understand their own child, is only the beginning.

I have had students on my team from a large spectrum of the LGBT+ community, from the student seeking to understand their gender to students who had been gay for years. There is one thing that they have in common - they all have experienced some form of discrimination, bullying, or prejudice. They have had to suffer under ignorance and fear. They have had to hear their lifestyle choice used as an obscenity or as a description of something that is 'stupid' or 'wrong'.

FIRST is NOT just about robotics. It is about the growth of leaders - of Gracious Professionals that understand how to deal with differences with grace and with a lack of ignorance. It is to expand on the idea that everyone should have a superhero in STEM; someone that they can look to and say "There is someone who is like me and is successful." It is not an organization that avoids issues but one that should run to them because the best innovation happens when there is clarity, transparency, and understanding.

Whether it is by blog or by talking among our own teams, I think it is incumbent on FIRST teams as incubators of innovation and designers of leaders to help create people who can adapt to social changes with understanding and skill.

After all, when any student is isolated because of a difference - because of race, gender, social beliefs, or ideological concepts - we all lose.

Thanks.
Daniel.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Judging by the length of the thread, I would say that it is a useful discussion topic. Or at the very least a popular one.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

No, it's not unfair. My team treats students just as we would junior coworkers in a professional environment. That means avoiding any potential interpersonal issues before they arise, if at all possible. This includes intentionally rooming guys/girls in separate rooms, keeping students that don't get along very well separated, and addressing any other potential issue with the least amount of conflict possible. FRC isn't here for social/sexual experimentation - it's here to begin developing our next generation of professionals and leaders.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

And these trans students aren't "experimenting". They're simply trying to express who they are.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

What does placing people in rooms according to their identified gender have to do with sexual experimentation? Transgender students are not "social experiments" - they merely have a gender that does not match the one assigned to them at birth.

Ultimately, the entire practice of assigning rooms by gender is heteronormative and cisnormative, and it is difficult to get around these issues within the policies of many schools.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Not to put words in Chris's mouth. But. I think what he was trying to say is what is essentially a youth field trip is not the place for sexual contact. LBGT, Hetro, ETC. In a perfect world everyone would conduct themselves in a professional manner. The reason why this thread is so long is that we don't live in a perfect world.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

what does the "I" stand for? I haven't seen that one before

being a Transgender person has nothing to do with sexual contact. it's a matter of feeling that the sex you were assigned at birth was not correct and wanting to be some other gender. People thinking it's about sex is part of the problem here - people's sense of identity should not be boiled down to worrying about them doin the do or whatever. When you think that people are just "acting trans" or whatever for the purpose of sex, you're marginalizing their valid feelings and opinions (sorry if this comes off as hostile or putting words in your mouth, I couldn't think of a better way to phrase it).

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

If other students of the opposite(mechanical) gender aren't comfortable rooming rooming together, I'm not going to make them. Reaffirming my previous statement, I'm not going to assign anyone to stay with anyone else they're uncomfortable with, no matter the reason. Doing so would be a 'social experiment', and is not what FIRST is here for.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

No where in the personal story (quoted below) does it say that anyone would have been forced into a rooming situation that was uncomfortable except for the poster, who was forced into an uncomfortable rooming situation by being isolated.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Intersex. It's alphabet soup. Normally I just say non-heteronormative but a lot of people don't know what that means.

Room assignments should always come down to two things: 1) what the authorities will allow which sometimes is ignorant and suboptimal but still a reality; and 2) the comfort level of the students staying together as well as the confidence of the mentors that this assignment is not likely to turn into a problem. When we make our room assignments, we think about what the energy of that room is likely to be and try to optimize it to be comfortable and professional.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Point well taken. (i think) I didn't mean to imply that transgender people think about or act on their sexual desires anymore or less than anybody else. Fortunately for me, I don't do room assignments & besides expecting students and mentors follow the First code conduct, discipline is not one of my first order duties. But. For the mentors that do, inappropriate contact, parent demands are 2 of many issues they have to worry about. This is true regardless of orientation. It is not that they worry any less about hetero contact. Actually probably more so since statistically there is more of that.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

And 'being isolated' is the default situation if no suitable assignments can be made. It's how many (if not most) big corporations travel, by default, and it's how we're forced to assign room if we can't resolve all of the issues, real or perceived.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

If you're not careful, (and even if you are), FIRST can be a very lonely experience. It kills your social life outside of robotics, because after the 3rd or 4th "I can't, I have robotics" people stop asking. At least in my experience. YMMV.

Build season is spending 30-40 hours a week with the same 20 people. After a while you start to get sick of one another. You get caught up in robot building and forget to be friends.

But there's a pay-off. You finish the 6 weeks, you look at each other, and say "We did this, and we did this together". You get a break, and your friendship is stronger because you bent, but you didn't break.

For me, the real reward of robotics is the competitions. Its not only a testament to your skill, but to your teamwork. It takes a village to raise a child, but it takes a team to build a robot. That feeling of being a part of something greater, I don't know about you, but that's what I live for.

Now imagine if you didn't have any of that. Imagine if you gave your life to the team (and I know all of you have), and you finally decided that you could trust your comrades enough to tell them who you really were, and you were ostracized for it. You were quarantined because someone decided that you weren't the effort. No one wanted to make the effort to understand you, and you were punished for being yourself.

Isn't that what were are all in robotics for? Have we lost our identity? Remember how good it felt to finally find a sport that you identified with, that you were finally really good at. Imagine if Dean Kamen had decided to not start FIRST because he didn't want to "divide the athletic community". The whole point of our league is to be inclusive and disruptive.

Everyone who questions the "point" of this blog is questioning the "point" of FIRST. The blog is inclusive and disruptive. This blog is a microcosm for the culture shift we want to bring around in the world at large. Everyone arguing against this idea is arguing for the status quo, and I could imagine a thing further from the mission of FIRST.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

You are taking a student's very real and personal story and making it about other people, about the status quo.

I understand, as a mentor and teacher, that we are held to following the laws of our state and the rules of our administration. But I hope that I never tell a student, "this is how the real world is, so suck it up, kid." Because that's how you sound with your justification.

I want students reading this to know that I'm listening. I'm sorry if you've ever felt isolated. I can't personally change the law, no matter how hard I try, my one vote only goes so far in the southern Midwest, but I will always try to hear you, to listen to you, and to do what I can to make you feel welcome and supported.

I will read this blog, read your stories, learn from you, and be a better mentor because of you. You give me hope. Your diversity brings me joy.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

A friend of mine (who is trans) did not feel comfortable posting in this thread, but asked me to post this for them:

Personally, it's a bit disappointing to me that there are still people out there who feel uncomfortable sharing who they are with our community. We can still do better, even if we've come a long way.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

This right here should be evidence enough that we need a (forgive me for using the politically charged word) safe space for people to share their experiences.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Four men are meant to share a hotel room. One of them is black. Another is an unrepentant racist.

Who do you move?

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Seeing this makes me quite sad and I agree with Liam about this being one of reasons why this blog was started.
FIRST is supposed to be a place for everyone to feel accepted as well as a place to get students into the field of STEM

--------------------------------------

I find it interesting to see everyone's views on this, even if it's not something that I exactly agree with
Just remember to try and keep things civil and do your best to respect people's opinions.

--------------------------------------

Just a note: We'll be going through staff applications over the next few days, so if anyone wants to apply you should do so now!
App HERE

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I move the racist out of whatever organization I'm an administrator for.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Madison, I think this is a more relevant situation:
My Post from the Making STEM a better place for women thread:
I am assuming that being an "unrepentant racist" is a lifestyle choice. :)
You have a binary solution here: Get two rooms. Two team members in each.
But when you have a panoply of situations as has been elucidated here, you may need to get separate rooms for every member of the team.

Fortunately, the students of the 2010's are far more understanding of identities and boundaries than my generation.

Just make sure that us mentors discuss the room assignments, individually, with each student beforehand.
This may maintain a status quo, keep lodging costs down, and hopefully lead to a relatively cohesive team dynamic. (Not the inevitable Robot Romances)

I never thought I would see this discussed on CD, but I think I am glad it has happened.

Thank you Mr_Moko

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Personally I don't believe that I should receive any thanking for the project. For me it's simply a matter of giving back to a community that I love and has given a lot to me.

I appreciate being thanked, though in my opinion the support that we'll be working on giving people is what I see as thanks enough. Helping one person feel more welcomed will make me beyond elated.

I hope that makes sense and didn't sound too rambly

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

As a believer that an individual of the LGB+ community deserves all the rights of any other individual, I don't see an issue with the blog. I hope it's expected that all FIRST teams are accepting of people of any orientation/gender/identity/etc. On my team, things of that nature have never really been an issue for anybody. On our team, everybody generally judges our members by their character and how they positively contribute to the team. So long as you contribute positively to the team and are a decent person (and keep your grades up), we love you! It doesn't really matter to the team whether you're gay, straight, bisexual, transgender, etc. I think judgement on any other basis would be inappropriate, ungracious, and unprofessional.

While I don't think that the LGB issue is any more or less important to FIRST than it would be to any other organization, that doesn't mean it's not worth talking about as needed. I couldn't see a issue with starting a blog about it. That being said, the issue is inherently socio-political (it is, by definition, a political issue). Some people would rather not get tangled up in such politics, so I can also understand people's desires to not delve any deeper than absolutely necessary.

I hope that the accepting atmosphere that I have experienced through the dozens of teams I have encountered during my time in FIRST continues to give any and all dedicated students an opportunity to find fulfillment.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I'm glad this project is starting up, and hopefully it becomes a useful resource to both students and mentors alike. As a trans person, I feel this is very important to help teams become more accepting, understanding and progressive. I put my full support behind this effort (and many others such as FIRST Ladies), and hope to see it become a resource utilised by many teams, students and volunteers.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Pretty straight forward. I don't move anyone. I remove the racist from the team.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

... so following that same logic, do you move the trans person out of the room or do you remove the transphobe from the team? What's the difference in this scenario? They are both issues of comfort level that are fundamentally rooted in prejudice.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I'm not sure that I understand how this question is pertinent to the conversation, Madison. The skin color you are born with is not a choice, and the law does not prevent students of different skin colors from sharing a hotel room. The law does prevent students of different sexes from sharing a hotel room.

I do not know how you categorize students who choose to identify with the opposite sex of the body they were born with. Maybe you should go by what their government-issued ID says, or their birth certificate, or what the records kept by the school district indicate. The last thing you want is a student with a male body, but who identifies as a female, sharing a room with female students. This is a recipe for disaster, and, as a parent I would not be comfortable putting my daughter in this situation.

My bottom line is that I don't really care what a student's sexual orientation/identity, race, gender, or ethnicity is, as long as they contribute to the team in a meaningful way. Any person (student or mentor) who does not contribute, or worse, hinders other students from contributing (doesn't matter to me if they are a distraction, a bully, or making another student feel uncomfortable/unaccepted) should be dealt with swiftly and appropriately. We should all be treated equally, and with respect.

The constitution protects our rights to think whatever we please, and to express those thoughts and opinions, regardless of which side of the debate our views lie. It does not protect our actions, especially when those actions infringe on another citizen's rights. It is your protected right to blog about LBGT+ people in FIRST. It is my protected right to share my thoughts and opinions about your blog in a respectful manner. It is unfortunate that this thread has deteriorated into a flurry of arguments, personal attacks, and nonacceptance of other's views. Chief Delphi is not an appropriate place for this type of behavior (regardless if you are a student or an adult mentor).

That being said, I wish you the best of luck with your blog, Mr_Moko.

I choose to keep my post anonymous on this thread because, like many of the LGBT+ people here, I am fearful of the backlash and actions that might be taken against me by those who do not agree with me, if they were to know my true identity. It sends a bad message about acceptance when there are people who are obviously not accepting (or at least tolerant) of those of us with opposing views on this subject.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

The scenario I laid out purposefully draws a comparison between a person's skin color and their sexuality or gender identity. I believe, unequivocally, that those characteristics are as immutable as one's skin color. Further, I believe that a trans person should be treated as one would anyone else who shares the same gender identity (and, more generally, that treating people differently based on gender is an absurd concept on its face).

I don't agree with the supposition that the scenario you describe above is a recipe for disaster. You are valuing the discomfort you feel about placing your daughter in that situation above the discomfort the trans person feels when they are treated as something different than they are. I don't think that's fair and that was the point I was trying to make with my initial comparison. Too often, we consider the experiences of LGBTQ people to be something other than normal and we inconvenience them, to put it mildly, in service of allaying our own misgivings.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

It sounds like you're saying trans students are choosing to change their gender. I disagree with this premise, and it's really the basis of your whole argument. To me, a student who is transfemale is simply female. If the law dictates otherwise, I have no choice but to abide by that. I also think a lot of parents would have more modern attitudes than you're demonstrating (of course, either way, their and their children's comfort levels are important, but not more important than the comfort of the trans student).

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I have a few questions:

• Any mentors have advice on best practices to develop environment conducive towards inclusion of minorities (and specifically LGBT+ students)?
• Any mentors familiar with common public school policies surrounding these topics?
• Any mentors have "do's" and "do not's" surrounding these topics they would be willing to share?
• I've seen theoretical hotel assignment predicaments brought up in this thread. Any mentors willing to share their methods for approaching these scenarios? (actual experience is preferred here!)
• If hotel assignments are a "red herring" in these conversations, are there other "real" challenges towards inclusiveness/equity that mentors face when serving LGBT+ students?

I'm really hoping to be better educated and aware so I can serve my student base as competently as possible.

From what I understand, this new blog will primarily be a blog by students. And that is awesome! I'm just hoping for some more resources/experiences from mentor perspectives, so that the rest of us "oldies" can grow as well :D

-Mike

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I do not understand how this is a recipe for disaster. In putting a female student who was born male in a room with two cisgendered females, you are just having three women sharing a room.

Contrary to what some might think, trans folk are NOT perverts claiming to be the opposite sex just to... whatever. By not allowing a MtF woman to be like the rest of the girls is telling her that she is different, she is unwanted, that she cannot be the only thing she is comfortable being.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

This stems from one of the great misunderstandings of the LGBTQI community: this isn't about what you see on the outside but what people feel on the inside. You can't see feelings. The person has to tell you and you have to listen to understand.

anonymous123, I appreciate your honesty and sincerity about your feelings. It is only very, very, _very_ recently that mainstream society has begun to reconsider the common, but ugly and false, view of transgender people as defective and/or deceptive. We're all at the mercy of our socialization.

But you would also do well to take transgender people at their word that they are effectively people who are trapped in a biological body that does not match how they feel about their gender. Saying that putting a transfemale in with a room of cis females is the same as putting a male in a room of cis females is plain untrue.

And all of this assumes that the people in question are heterosexual and would feel that their privacy would be violated by having to room with a member of the opposite sex. As I've said before, you have to take into account the general energy of the room as determined by the individuals.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

On my team, our lead programmer is biologically male but identifies as (and is considered by her friends to be) female. Under our school's policies, she is considered male and was placed in a room with male students.

I am a student on the team, so I have no knowledge of the full policy, only how it was implemented in this instance.

This took place in conservative Western New York, where attitudes toward LGBTQ+ people stray behind those in other parts of the nation (but are still ahead of some others).

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I'm a student mentor this year, and I shared some of my experience with room assignment in this thread. Sitting down with the students and asking them who they want to room with and checking if it's within the laws that govern you is the best option.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

From Jaci's referenced threadUnfortunately the rules in the US generally aren't that logical. You have 50 states, all with variations, the federal government is starting to get involved. So you have administrations fall back to zero tolerance like policies.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

This is why I put the whole "although you will have to do some research of your own" segment. If the law forbids it, that's one thing, but if a person with duty of care says no because "it's just easier that way", that's something else entirely.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Also, there's a human component to take into consideration.

Yes, you must follow the law. But when following the law, mentors can respectfully take time to listen to their students, discuss the situation, and make sure that the students still feel valued, as opposed to dismissed.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Also the time to be starting this conversation is early in the season, not when the mentor is scurring to make all the arrangements two weeks before worlds. (We like many teams didn't qualify until week 7) :]

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

"Racist" implies that there was some sort of disrespectful or harassing behavior occurring to allow you to identify this individual as a racist to begin with, hence, the removal of this individual from the team. The "transphobe" situation is different (seeing as how they're still on the team implies you're using the term to describe someone who is uncomfortable rooming with some of the opposite sex that identifies with as the same sex as opposed to someone who has regularly been disrespectful or harassing to others). That said, people of the same sex are generally roomed together, unless there is some sort of known issue or incompatibility. People of the opposite sex are not roomed together, no matter their gender. Push comes to shove, the whole travel team could end up in individual rooms.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I wrote up a whole post about this, but I hate it when people make LGBT+ entirely about what people spend <1% of their lives doing with their bits. So instead, I'm first going to ask:

Why is it a hard and fast rule that people of opposite physical gender are not roomed together? Exactly what goal is this meant to accomplish?

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

<1%, you say? Good point, definitely shouldn't separate anyone based on any sexual attribute.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

And that is the fundamental point where we disagree, Madison. I do not (can not) know what it feels like to be "trapped in a man's body", to “have no choice”. If I showed up to a FIRST event in a dress, to me, I would feel like nothing more than a man wearing a dress. I would still have a man's body, underneath the dress. To me, I would still be a man. Until I made the choice to undergo a complete physical change to transform my body, I do not think I could feel like a woman, and I would not identify myself as a woman until the transformation was complete. For me to do this would be my choice. Unlike some, I do not know what it feels like to "not have a choice". What I know about how I feel determines my stance on this issue, and the way I see it, it seems to me like a choice. I think that the best way I to determine gender of a person is to use the gender of a person's body. This is just my opinion, and it likely won't change until I see scientific fact that proves otherwise. I hope that my explanation can help everyone else to understand my thought process in reaching my opinion and my point of view on this.

Agreed Madison, there is no reason to treat people differently based on their gender (or any other aspect of their appearance). However, the societal norm regularly draws gender lines, for example, gender-specific restrooms. How do you feel about sharing a public restroom with everyone, not just women?

Maybe instead of "recipe for disaster", I should have phrased it "lawsuit waiting to happen". As adult mentors, liable for the well-being and safety of the students that we chaperon, it just doesn't seem like a good position put ourselves, or the students we look out for, in. It would definitely make me very uncomfortable to be in a situation like that. And yes, I value the well-being of myself and my family above that of others around me, regardless of the gender, race, ethnicity, or sexual orientation of those around me. Don't we all?

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

The problem here is that without knowing the reasoning behind such a rule, it's hard to explain why it might be problematic and counter-productive. I mean, maybe it's a perfectly appropriate rule that efficiently achieves its goal and I'm just unclear on the intended goal. Anonymous123 says going outside that rule is a "lawsuit waiting to happen". What would this lawsuit be about? We're all FIRSTers here, gimme a blue box on that "No opposite sexes rooming together" rule.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I really don't follow this logic at all. You're essentially saying that because you are cisgender, you can't understand the experiences of transgender people, which in and of itself is fair. But you then conclude that transgender people don't exist and have a choice? Because you're cisgender, and if you "decided" to be trans it would be a choice, it must be a choice for everybody? How can you reach that conclusion, particularly when you know and freely admit that your experiences are different from those of trans people?

Ultimately what I'm trying to get at here is this - why do you feel unsafe around trans people? The implications of posts like yours are that trans people are somehow threatening to the safety and security of cis people. You don't come out and say that directly but you keep bringing up safety and comfort so I have trouble figuring out a different meaning behind your words. Trans people are not more dangerous than cis people; they're not more likely to violate or abuse their peers (much the opposite actually - more likely to be the victims). What is the fear here? What harm do you expect when trans boys room with cis boys, or trans women room with cis women? To be completely honest, I think your worldview is informed by some prejudiced misconceptions of what trans people are actually like.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I agree. Why should we separate students based on gender? Is it for the comfort of the students? If so, I would point the the many anecdotes from this thread and from my own experience that high school students can be mature and handle rooming with members of the opposite sex. Is it for the mentors' piece of mind? If so, why do we see so many cases of gay cis women rooming with other women? Why do we see cases of straight trans men and women being forced to room with the opposite gender? Is it for the school? If so, where is the rule that says that kids must room with the same sex? I know I've personally read my school's handbook back to front and never seen a rule like that. Is it for FIRST? If so, show me a page in the admin manual.

I understand in some cases, there are rules in place about this kind of thing. I am inviting you to challenge your beliefs. FIRST is about learning and growing. One of the ways we do that is to challenge ourselves and what we know to be "true" or "real". Please, have the courage to open your mind and consider another reality.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

The prevailing rules regarding teenagers are based on the rulemakers' memories of being teenagers, and on the societal norm of what is considered "inappropriate" contact between minors.

I think that's a reasonable summary of why we do. To address why we should requires evaluating and perhaps reconsidering a couple of assumptions. One big assumption is that "gay" is not a thing. I think the implications of not making that assumption need to be looked at and separated from assumptions about gender identity before a transgender policies discussion can get very far.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

"Sex-confirmation surgery" is unnecessary. It's an expense many, many trans people cannot afford. This is a really, really skewed perception of what it means to be transgender, and I hope you allow yourself to read more personal trans experiences to learn what it's really like.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Note: This rambles entirely away from my original point, but feels like a good post instead of whatever I was deleting earlier today, so I'm posting anyways.
I feel I should point out that you've already, scientifically, lost on this point. There's SO much complication, subtlety, and gray area just in how gender genotype translates into realized phenotype:
XX males
XY females
Genetic Chimeras
Various other Intersex Humans

Welcome to biology, where all your engineering notions of sharp lines and strict categories are about as useful as a calculus book in a jungle. "Gender of a person's body" is a scientifically vague concept. And if your answer is "I knows it when I sees it"... well that doesn't seem like a useful way of organizing a society.

Which is really what it comes down to. The whole notion of gender as a binary and gender roles as immutably tied to someone's assigned-at-birth gender is a social construct. It's like how paper money is valuable only because society as a whole has "decided" it's useful to think a piece of paper with a dead person's portrait is a fair trade for a ham sandwich. Traditional gender identity and gender roles were presumably useful to society at some point. We're just pointing out they have little connection to fundamental reality, are actively harmful in many ways, and are thus becoming less useful every year. They're purely a social construct, and it's time to re-think them and update them to work better for everyone.

Since there isn't some board of Managers of Society to petition about this, the next best (only) option is to talk about LBGT+ issues openly and explain to anyone who wants to listen how those traditional* ideas are harmful and less than useful.

*Shouldn't forget that the traditions we hold so dear are pretty US/Christian/Euro Centric and will vary in other places and cultures. Which, again, social constructs.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Others have addressed the scientific aspect that you brought up, so I won't bother with :deadhorse:

I want to look at the liable aspect though:
I don't believe anyone in this thread has recommended breaking the law. In fact, it's been said a few times that it's important to be educated about what the law is in your state (or country) and your individual school district. I don't think any student would want their mentors and team to be put into a situation where the team is at risk due to breaking the law.

But, we can follow the law (even if our opinion is that it's archaic), and we can treat our students with respect and love by listening to them and respecting them.

There simply is no safety or liability issue here. Unlike when we're talking about paper airplanes; now THERE'S a lawsuit waiting to happen, when someone gets hit in the eye with one of those things...

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

In response to the request for advice from a mentor who has travelled with trans students, here is my experience.

Last year, we had one trans student and a number of out gay or lesbian students travel to Utah. Initially, we arranged for our trans student to stay in his own room, but after talking with him, his family, and the family of one of the lesbian students, the two of them decided they wanted to room together. Everyone agreed, and it worked out fine, no issues.

If we hadn't had the open communication with parents (and I understand that is often the case), we would have had him room on his own, much as we've had students take a single room who have any other reasonable motive. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen, and we plan these rooms into our budget. I agree that the old gender binary norms don't give much guidance on these things, and that school rules are often less than helpful. It's frustrating to me that folks talk about this as though it were a safety issue.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I'm glad that people seem to have settled that discussion civilly. It's a topic that, while not every team has to deal with it, happens enough to waren debate and rethinking of how thins generally work.

-----
Blog news time!!
Last I counted we had 27 applications, most of them from the US, one from Australia!!
If I counted right we're now at 31 and excited about that. We're currently looking at staff applications, so if anyone wants to apply before we finish going over them you should do it now!!

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I'd totally help out but i graduated last year.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I thought the questions were below were valuable and did a bit of digging this weekend to better understand the policies adopted by Seattle Public Schools.

While perhaps not the same, I can speak a bit about what seems to work on my team to make ethnic minorities and women seek us out. I think all of it falls under the umbrella of 'visibility.'

Our team has been headed by a Chinese woman, Donna, and her family for most of its history. She understands the challenges faced by many students in our schools more than, say, someone like me ever could. Consequently, the students and -- most importantly -- their families trust her. In the past, she's had to visit several students' homes to get their families to allow them to be part of the team, but she's never failed to get it to happen. If someone wants to be on the team, she'll find a way to make it happen.

The team is also led by women. Donna handles all of the team's administrative needs. I lead the engineering team and have been the drive coach since I joined the team in 2005.

The team is very present in its community. We focus our outreach heavily on recruitment. I've lost track of the number of students that have joined our team instead of others that are based in the school they attend or nearer to their homes because they interacted with us at an event and felt more comfortable with us.

Our team operates its field trips using rules set by Seattle Public Schools. We haven't had to deal with an openly LGBTQ student in about ten years, however.

Non-Discrimination and Affirmative Action: Transgender and Gender Non-Conforming Students

I'm as guilty as anyone of treating these subjects like it's debate club, but I wanted to include another link here -- http://www.thetrevorproject.org/page...-about-suicide -- to remind folks that mentoring kids can be a lot more than just showing them how to design robots. This is the stuff that matters more than anything else.

Moving on...

I won't say much to address this or the rest of the paragraph that followed since my thoughts echo those of others who've already responded.

I am afraid of dogs. I feel nothing but terror when I'm around a dog. My good friends are absolutely in love with their dog and, though I can't imagine how that's possible, I don't disbelieve that it's true. I respect them enough to take what they say as truth and realize that my discomfort is less important than their happiness. Maybe there are parallels to be drawn here; maybe not.

Couldn't care less.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

First off, you say that we are overlooking how this is relevant to FIRST. This is FIRST, not college football. It is about making your impact on society and culture, hence the term "more than robots" and the significance of the Chairman's award. Also, even if you are against LGBT, it is probably because you have an image in your head of a bunch of men with weird voices marching down the street with pride flags. I have to say, the public image of the LGBT community is very poorly depicted. For all you know, your best friend could be bisexual and wouldn't ever tell you because you are against the LGBT community. It truly is oppression when people are afraid to speak out about who they are because it's seen as "weird" or "freakish". The blog is necessary for students and mentors, and it isn't just about the LGBT perspective versus heterosexual perspective. The blog is about acceptance of LGBT people into a community that has overlooked then for so long. The blog doesn't plan to " force ideals onto "normal" people" or anything along those lines. It is simply there for the few people who are too afraid to try their best. It's to prove that gender and sexuality is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. You aren't required to visit this blog, so don't even try to complain.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Forget women in STEM, how about any gender, any race, any sexuality, any age, any wealthiness, any anyone? While many teams, including my own, promote women in STEM, I believe that it shouldn't be limited to gender. It's the whole idea of "fight fire with fire" that I don't like. An all inclusive world would be easier for everyone, but we get in our own way sometimes.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Why is this thread relevant shouldn't everyone just talk about robotics the same???

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Everyone in this world is different and can experience the same thing in a different way. If you and I were both watching the same TV show, maybe I relate to a character more than you because of my background and vice versa. Maybe I find a scene funny but you find it mean, even though we're watching the same scene.

This is a group of people wanting to talk about how they experience FIRST in a different way than non gender and sexual minorities do. What a boring world it would be if we all talked about things the same way. :)

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

No, we shouldn't. If teams only talked about robotics (and worse, talked about it in the same way) FIRST wouldn't be nearly as impactful of an organization, and boy would our robots be dull.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

But is it not possible to talk about robots from different aspects without having to drag sexuality into the mix. I understand that people can talk about robots differently but I do not understand how sexuality affects it.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Robotics do not involve sexuality, and shouldn't. Nor should they involve religion or politics. But there are instances where all 3 intrude upon our sport. When someone is treated unfairly because of their religion, or sexual orientation in robotics then it should be discussed. When we need to enter into politics to obtain grants and funding, that should be discussed.

In this case, much like political grants and funding, we have a website devoted to creating a more positive environment for students so it's definitely worth discussing.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

So looking at the Championship conference schedule for the First time. I see there is one (actually a couple. more than that if you include the ones specifically on women in stem) on diversity & inclusion. I know nothing about it other than seeing it on the schedule.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Well, you addressed part of what I said. I'm not really interested in doing something one way just because it is possible.
And the idea that robotics students should "just" talk about robots would be quite a few steps in the wrong direction from where teams are now. As they often say, FIRST is about more than the robots.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

What is appropriate to talk about in a peer to peer relationship and what is a appropriate in a mentor to student relationship is often different. Especially is your team is school affiliated.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Hey everyone, Josh here!
I just wanted to say that I love that we're bringing this to the community and all the discussion that has taken place on this thread over that last few weeks.

Today is the big day though!
If you applied to be a staff member then you should check your email.

To those who were accepted into the the staff I would like to congratulate you!

To those who have not been accepted I would like to say that you can still contribute to the blog! We'll have Submissions and Asks open to anyone who would like to help out or ask questions! Same goes to those who have not applies, Submissions and Asks will be open to everyone.

One thing that is also being worked on is a Discord server. The server is currently reserved for the staff members, but once we get everyone situated and the logistics of how we'll run the Discord server then it will be open for everyone who would like to talk to one another!
We'll have everything from a General Chat to a place to dump your FIRST memes to AMAs and game talk!

Good luck to any and all that are attending Worlds!

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

So you're saying that those who are LGBT+ have a medical condition that makes them that way?

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I know I said I would bow out, but I do need to respond to this.

What he is saying is that it is based on genetics, the same way eye or hair color is. Eye and hair color are not a medical condition, whereas something like Down's Syndrome is. Being LGBT+ is genetic, but not a medical condition.

I hope that makes sense,
indieFan

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Can't tell if you're just trying to agitate, but I'd recommend doing some reading. Here's a place to start.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

It's is great there is finally a blog for LGBT Firsters. I think it will be a great resource for other LGBT people like myself. I can't wait to see this blog grow. I hope I can contribute to the discussion:D

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

If you don't like the thread you don't have to view it if you don't want. We are not forcing this thread on you. And if you wan't your Chief Delphi experience to be only about robots then go ahead. But remember the first is about "more than robots".

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

My question is if you are homophobic and "strongly against the ideas and beliefs of the LGBT+ society" why are you on a thread like this. My philosophy is live your own life and let others live theirs. You make the point "but I do not think it is right to force my own opinions down someone else's throat". This thread is here not to force anything on anyone. "I believe this post is just to present an uproar in the FIRST community to unite over some pointless propaganda for a new blog" I disagree 100%. This tread is not to create an uproar. You have that completely wrong. Try and put yourself in an LGBT Firsters shoe's. Or even better imagine a world were being LGBT is the norm and being straight is the minority. Imagine having to be closeted to everyone and pretending to be someone you are not. Imagine having to come out to your family. Im sorry I must sound really rude but when you are on an LGBT blog and you say stuff like that you are gonna get some crap

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Then don't read it.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Thanks for liking the idea! And feel free to submit things if you would want to contribute!
Also, I see that you were replying to those who disagree, while that is nice to defend the blog, there is no need to further any confrontation.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Ok. I was reading through the thread late last night and I kinda got overly defensive. I can't wait to to contribute to the discussion in a less defensive way.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I have an old person question.

Is there some easy way I can find out if the blog has been updated without randomly visiting it? I am an old and don't speak tumblr.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

If you're willing to use an RSS reader, I think tumblr blogs are automatically hooked up with an RSS Feed.
And, if you have the Tumblr app (which I'm assuming you don't, but just to cover all the bases), you can turn on notifications for specific blogs by going to their page in the app and clicking one of the buttons at the top.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Planetbrilliant probably has the best answer to that. If you don't have Tumblr nor want to get it that's okay though. We should look into seeing if we can get an RSS feed going if Tumblr doesn't have one built in.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I do not want his new concept of lgbtq to poisin the good society the FIRST has constructed.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

I'm sorry LGBT+ people have been around forever. :(

Anywho, a note about getting notifications through Tumblr is you have to keep the app running.

(This is directed at the mods) Another thing for post notifications is enabling your Twitter to post every time something goes on the blog - that way your Twitter followers who may not use Tumblr are updated on new posts. It's in the blog settings.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Hey guys I know it's over and done but I want to apologize for my replies so far in this thread. I realized I was being part of the problem. I am also sorry to the people I replied to rudely to. Just because I don't agree with your views doesn't mean I should be rude about it. I hope to be more helpful and less of a hindrance to this thread.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

That sounds like a plan! We'll try to get that, or something similar, running.

Shrub is correct, LGBT+ people have been around forever. There are hieroglyphics depicting pharaohs in gay relationships from 2400 BC and many other records of LGBT+ people existing basically as long as humans have been a thing.
Regardless, I don't see how accepting and acknowledging LGBT+ people would "poison the good society FIRST has constructed".

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

That would be awesome. I'm not -so- old that I don't know how to use Twitter. :)

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

Is it possible to update the Twitter account with links to the most recent posts? I follow most of my blogs that way.

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

It should be from what I've hear. We'll look into it!

---Edit---

Looked into it and now our twitter will update when we make a post on Tumblr for all of those who would rather not make a Tumblr or are not sure how to use it!

Re: FIRST LGBT+ (A blog by and about LGBT+ people in FIRST)
 

So admittedly I have not read the entirety of this very long thread, so someone may have already shared a similar story, and if that's the case then I apologize for repeating.

From my own personal experiance, FIRST has been an increadibly welcoming community. I am openly Bi-sexual, and anyone on my team who has ever gotten to know me knows this. I have had absolutely no issues and I have never once felt discriminated against for any reason, let alone my sexuality. It seems so me that the people in FIRST are above such ignorance. In fact FIRST was a large part in my coming out, as my team provided me with an enviroment in which I felt supported and safe, no matter who I was.

I think it's important that we keep allowing the LGBT community the same support that I feel throughout FIRST. This organization has not only taught me about engineering, leadership, teamwork and business, but also has helped me find myself as a person. Personally I would like to thank this community for being so accepting and caring, and for giving me the strength to live as myself. As stated at the beginning of this thread, today's teams are tomorrow's leaders, and that gives me hope for a future with acceptance world-round.