Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

It's one of everyone's favorite reoccurring topics: complaining about people throwing paper airplanes from the stands while waiting for the Einstein matches to start. A quick search shows at least three such threads from last year alone.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...paper+airplane
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...paper+airplane
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...paper+airplane

I also found a thread discussing a blog post following the 2014 Championship where Frank asks everyone to consider the impression we leave as a community by littering the dome with thousands of sheets of paper that someone has to clean up.
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...paper+airplane

The regularity of these threads indicates that people voicing their concerns after the fact, then waiting a year and hoping things will change is not working. I'm hoping that by having this discussion before Championship the community can do something to address these concerns, rather than just continuing to beat a dead horse.

My personal take:
I recognize that throwing paper airplanes can be an enjoyable way to pass the time between when you have to claim a seat around the Einstein fields and when the matches actually start. I recognize that some people consider this a tradition that is part of the Championship experience. (I can remember sitting in the stands in 2003 and watching a few stray paper airplanes make their way down from the upper levels, so it has been done to some extent for as long as Championship has been in a dome.)

I did not attend Championship last year, but based on my experience in 2014 I think that it has gotten out of hand. At the very least, I think that people who feel compelled to throw paper airplanes should take some responsibility for cleaning them up. Ultimately, I would not miss this practice if it went away entirely.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

If my team will let me stay behind I don't mind helping. If i'm going to throw paper airplanes might as well help pick them up.

I know it is an opposing viewpoint, but I like the challenge of getting the airplane to the curtain. In fact my plan was to buy a small buzzer motor that goes in a phone, 3d print a small propeller, attach a small dime battery, throw it, and be done. I agree that it is a problem when people are throwing during Einstien Prep and matches, in fact I was appalled that they threw their planes during that time. Trash at an event like this will happen no matter what anyone does and the staff are prepared for it.

At this point I'm going to be quiet, because the more I try to add the worst it will get. If you want to say your team to not throwing paper airplanes fine, in fact we may do that in the end. I just wanted to say that I liked the challenge of trying to hit the curtain, and that I wouldn't mind helping to insure that others have the same fun when the teams are board sitting in the stands.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

One of the issues is that the majority of the airplanes end of littering the dome floor, which is at the end of the competition rightfully reserved for celebration of the winning team.

There just isn't the option of allowing other people down on the dome to help clean up.

Respectfully, your sentiment of "If I'm going to throw paper airplanes, I might as well help pick them up." just isn't an option. If you truly believe you should help clean up your own messes, then don't make the mess in the first place.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Like anything else, it's a fun activity that is spoiled by people who clearly don't think before doing. 90% of the people play by the rules and it's fine, the other 10% spoil it for everyone.

Ostensibly the challenge is to create a plane or two or five, and fly it to see how far you can make it go. It's like a little engineering challenge.

The people who spoil the fun for everyone:
People who toss airplanes at the wrong time, such as during matches.
People who toss non-airplanes just for the sake of tossing them, such as crumped balls of paper or other litter. (Why?)
People who go overboard, tossing buckets of scrap paper down without even bothering to make a plane.

I do agree that if you make 'em, you should participate in cleaning up afterward.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Our team views it as extremely disrespectful. If people were throwing garbage onto the field of any sporting event they would be escorted out. I've witnessed countless eyes wander from very impactful guest speakers just to watch a paper airplane that nearly lands on the field. How any team can justify that this is professional behavior is beyond me. If teams truly view it as an engineering challenge, set up an area in a hallway and supply a bunch of paper. Create a competition out of it and spread the word. Once you build your plane and fly it down the hallway record your distance, and then recycle it. (I doubt all the paper on the field mixed with trash is recycled).

You will not see anyone on 2052 throwing airplanes.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Thanks for bringing this up.

I'll be sure to add this topic to our team itinerary.

Namely, "Littering via throwing paper airplanes in the Dome does not align with Team 1678's public image. Please focus your energy and enthusiasm towards the competition and your roles on the the travel team."

Also, the paper airplanes can be disruptive to matches. A ref needed to remove this airplane from the field before Einstein Finals Match 2.

Although not every team will, I'm sure many teams could be proactive in addressing this behavior.

Now, it doesn't help when a CMP speaker tells your kids to throw them :(

-Mike

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

The only way the plane/trash throwing is going to stop is if FIRST does something about it. Just asking people to stop is not working. Add a rule in the Admin manual with a Team Update, send an email to mentors, and instruct volunteers/security to enforce the rule. Teams throwing trash (paper planes included) onto the unsuspecting people below should be removed from the dome. This is not just a GP issue, it is a safety issue.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This. 4607 will be following 2052's lead on this.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

No one on our team threw any airplanes last year until this happened. After that, well, I lost my motivation to explain to students why I thought throwing airplanes was poor behavior.

We did pick up airplanes on our way out to throw them away, but the garbages were already overflowing, so all we really accomplished was a spreading of this silly mess from the stands into the hallway.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

It was difficult to tell our 6 year old son he wasn't allowed to throw airplanes when he was surrounded by high school students and adults doing the same.

FIRST Championships: Setting Back Good Parenting Since 2003

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I may have not been paying attention but has FIRST ever even asked the crowd to not throw paper airplanes. It seems by just making it clear at the start of opening ceremonies would decrease airplane throws dramatically. Instead all I've hear is occasional encouragement to throw the airplanes.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

You said it best last year...

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Do it all at once, as an organized event. When the speaker asks, do it then, and not again. Have fun with it during that set downtime, and get it out of the system.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I don't think you'll find many mentors who want to see this continue. It's students that are causing this and it's troubling that their mentors are absent/don't care/aren't respected enough to be listened to. At this point, it may take a official FIRST message to make them stop.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This is an idea I like.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I'm not sure I've seen this mentioned but as someone who has been hit in the head repeatably by paper airplanes that were inexpertly made and thrown, I'm not a big fan. :(

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

We're only flying paper airplanes because Libby likes them so much.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

It bears looking for the root cause here; people are bored, paper airplanes are fun and the dome offers a pretty awesome place to fly them.

I'd propose a formal (either FIRST or team organized) paper airplane contest. Each team gets the same paper/whatever, launches from the same place and graded on whatever criteria seems appropriate. Let people get it out of their system in a positive and easier to control manner.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

How about create a schedule that doesn't have 30 minutes between matches?

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This. So much.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Please! Yes.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I was never too big of a fan of the paper airplane tradition, as it created a gigantic mess, was quite annoying and even painful at times; I remember being hit in the head forcefully by several as we sat down on the lower level in 2014. I personally always felt bad when speakers telling their inspiring and emotional stories were interrupted by the cheers of the crowd as an airplane made it to the stage.

Last year in particular however, I felt the tradition got way too out of hand, as groups were dumping reams of paper off the upper level, throwing crumpled and ripped up programs from outside and at some points toilet paper from the bathrooms ended up being run down to the lower level from up there as well.

It felt more like a rave than a robotics competition, and just seemed very out of place and inappropriate on such an international stage of competition.

tl;dr: No more paper airplanes, they cause a big mess, distract from the show, and don't look professional.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Dangit, Wil, I'd been avoiding this thread. :P

I'm honestly tired of being the broken record on this one.
It's disrespectful. Just don't do it.
Why this isn't common sense is absolutely mind-boggling to me.

Who cares what a random speaker says, Good Guy Frank himself has said in a blog to stop throwing paper airplanes. FIRST should absolutely put out wording (team update, maybe?) that states clearly states a position against it, and continue to make announcements throughout the event.

If the only possible way the kids on your team can have fun at World Championships is by throwing airplanes, you might want to reconsider bringing those students on the trip at all. It's similar to the idea of students who paid all the money for a trip, just to play games on their phones in the stands ... what's your end goal here? On 1923 we ban a lot of things that are disrespectful to the event on our team, with wording similar to Mike Corsetto's above. Paper airplanes are one of them, along with things like headphone use & gaming in the stands.

Yes, there are WAY-too-long breaks between matches. FIRST should work on their end to make them smaller, and fill those breaks with valuable content (team history & match review by knowledgeable commentators, maybe? I know I'm shooting for the stars here...) - but just because FIRST ends up creating a break doesn't mean we get to fill it with awful behavior.

What other ways can we, as a community, think of that a team in the stands could do on their own to fill the time between Einstein matches?

I'll start: Our team, when we're watching elims matches with long breaks, tends to 'bet on' & discuss the upcoming match. Oh yeah, I'll bet it's Red, did you see Team XYZ's high shot now? Or what about something like an "Einstein Bingo" card that your team can play against each other in the stands? A trivia game about your team? I Spy: FIRST event edition?

Doesn't have to be something huge or intense. Just anything that's not littering...

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Or we could just not do it at all and act like adults without throwing paper around.

Just my take.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

While I will admit that I participated in the throwing of paper airplanes last year at world's, I frankly was an overexcited freshman who was eager to be a part of something big. Little did I know that my actions cause problems in the grand scheme of things. While I do agree that it has its fun, we should certainly refrain from the whole throwing of planes, at least during guest speakers, matches, etc because it is extremely and utterly disrespectful. I'm not going to wail on those who do this responsibly, but honestly we as a generation of intellectuals all congregated in one place could easily think of a less disruptive time-waster. Overall, I can understand how this "tradition" developed, but it certainly takes away from the mature and sophisticated image that FRC strives to build for us.

tl;dr: Throwing paper planes, while fun, has grown a bit out of control and should be either done responsibly or not at all.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Well, let's preface this by kinda throwing the "Doesn't have to be something huge or intense" part out the window - what about expanding on the FIRST Einstein show that was put on last year into a Preview/Season Recap show?
One of my favorite parts of the season is listening to team history recaps during Finals from MCs like Karthik (His recap during GTRE 2012 was phenominal) and Dave Verbrugge (The one that comes to mind was his recap during 2010 Einstein).

So, expanding on this, once the first or second division gets out of division eliminations, over on the official Einstein screen FIRST could start a preshow in somewhat of the same vein as your conventional sports preshow. It could cover everything from the history of the Einstein teams at Champs to significant moments during the season (First capture, first hang, first double hang, first Triple hang, etc.) and cover things like event with best breaching percentage, highest capture rate, etc. [1] to a panel of "experts" predicting general strategies that are expected to be seen on Einstein - things like expected offense/defense ratio, types of defense, over/unders on scores from different points in the match, etc.

It's information that I, and at least a decent amount of people on Chief, seem to love to hear about. It'd be something that would be mildly interesting, but not something that would be unfortunate to miss since your division is still playing. There's plenty of people with much better qualifications to host this show (FUN, RoboZone, GameSense, etc.) but would be a position I'd love to volunteer for / shoot for in the future.

[1] - May require some research on the fly. I suppose access to TBA would be helpful.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I think, yes, put out an update but if FIRST really want to kill this, I think they need to bring out the big guns.

Have Dean and/or Woodie come out and say something like, "Listen. We are serious. We've put this in the Manual (via an update but still it's in the rules). We want this to stop. If you won't do this out of respect for the rules, then I am asking you to do it out of respect for me. Please. Don't do this. If you see others doing it, remind them of the norms of this community. Thanks."

I think the FIRST community will surprise you with how fast we'd get this under control, but it will take more than a blog post I think.

Dr. Joe J.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Absolutely agree! I think the confusion source is that there's mixed messages coming from above, so some folks think it's OK.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Please do not add anything non-paper to a paper aeroplane. No matter what you say, there is a significant risk of the paper planes hitting someone, I'd rather not be hit by a plane at all and definitely one with the added weight of a prop, motor and battery. Our team was almost constantly hit with planes coming from near the top of the stands last year.

Just think of it this way, if there are 600 teams at Champs and each team has 20 students at the event, if each student throws a single plane that is 12000 paper planes. It is a huge waste, and massive inconvenience to the event staff and to members of the FIRST community down on the arena floor.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I can't understand why there isn't some sort of declaration to not throw paper airplanes during a match/while someone is speaking (or at all, for that matter).

From what I gather, not many people seem to be fond of the littering tradition, so why isn't there someone in, say, opening ceremonies telling people to stop?

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Ok

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

You know, I was thinking about that reading this thread...

I suggest a rule that any paper airplane thrown, if the thrower is identified, is a Foul against their team, or if their team is out, their subdivision, in the next match.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Absafraggin-lutely. Before heading up to 2015 CMP, we briefed our team that we would not launch paper airplanes, and stuck with it until then. When the announcement came down from a CMP speaker, the rules changed. I confess to re-constructing some championship gliders from my high school memory. Not just once or twice. I estimate that three program books worth of paper airplanes wound up somewhere below us based on my designs and/or construction.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This is the part that I don't understand. You mean to tell me that a generation of kids that use their phones to occupy their time to fill every down second (and a lot of seconds that they should definitely not be on their phones) all of the sudden decide that something is more interesting than their phones? Seriously, everyone saying that they need to throw airplanes to keep from being bored, where is that creativity the other 364 days of the year?

In other words, stop throwing airplanes and play on your $%^$ phones - here's the one chance that we would rather you do that.

Ok, I'm done being an old cranky guy.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

One more point about having Dean and/or Woodie ask the audience to stop, it empowers cranky old folk like myself to tell young whippersnappers to knock it off. If we know we are standing with Dean/Woodie, then we can confidently (and nicely, at least at first) ask people around us we see folding planes to stop.

Dr. Joe J.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I propose a "Waiting for Einstein" bingo app... though none of the boxes should be "someone throwing a paper airplane". ;)

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Actually, let's take it a step further: A clean version of JackBox games actually wouldn't be a bad idea at all. If it works as well as I saw it at PAX South, then the whole arena may be suspiciously silent.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I have no idea what that is but I think we are on to something.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

And, if I remember correctly, one of the speakers that encouraged the throwing was a general in the United States Air Force.

I do not condone the throwing of paper airplanes in the dome, but a little discouragement from the stage would go a long way towards ending this "tradition".

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

OK,
Sorry to weigh in here, but...
I work on Einstein and see this period from a different view than the stands. Last year, is was a rain storm of paper that went on for hours. Some of those planes ended up in the LED video board above the stands. Removing them would be a costly fix for venue staff. But check out the picture below. This is one of at least four piles of similar size that were swept up during the Einstein program. I did not get a picture of the piles after the crowd moved to the finale. Yours may have only been one of these, but they add up.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Clearly the way to deal with this is to print the prohibition against paper airplanes on 8.5"x11" flyers, and place one or more on each seat in the stands. To make it fun, origami techniques could be used to pre-fold the flyers into some shape that relates directly to the topic being covered. Do you think this idea will fly? Anyone willing to get this idea off the ground?

Also, place a few Recycle Rush bins near the back curtain and on the flyers encourage that they be recycled in those containers.

I like to float such ideas like this, but sometimes things just go over the heads of most people.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I think if someone said anything over the PA, or had a screen with something along the lines of "Please refrain from throwing paper airplanes", it would stop almost completely. This practice has been going on for years, and is almost a tradition, whether good or bad.

FIRST kids are, in general, friendly toward authority, or are at the very least, not afraid to tell their peers when something is bad. Literally, any sort of "official" word from the event, while at the event, saying to not throw airplanes is really all we need. Not everyone reads the blog, and even fewer read Chief Delphi.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I agree. Hopefully Frank is reading this and they give us a sign (a literal one).

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This is all well and good for us to say in a thread as people who have habitual champs attendance problems, but we're already ignoring the environment and frame of mind teams will be in on Saturday. In other words, our words will fall on deaf ears without a much larger microphone.

100% of teams will wake up and go into the Dome on Saturday
65% of teams will have nothing to do but pack up their pit on Saturday, which takes about 30 minutes
95% of teams will have nothing to do for up to 8 hours after lunch, including the 65% of teams who have already been sitting/watching for 3 hours.

It will take something official for teams to stop, IMO. I have tried to stop my own team, and yet been overridden by mentors or (worse) parents who simply disagree because they're the ones who have been sitting for what feels like forever. The kids even made paper airplane templates last year, with team branding and social media contacts.

Please, FIRST, speak up about this.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Last seasons Einstein matches seemed especially slow due to the lengthy gaps between matches. When I spoke with my team about this thread I was happy to see that the majority of the team agree they want to not participate. With that backing, the team has pledged to not take part in paper airplane throwing this season.

I really hope that the pacing of the finals matches are better this year. Kids, and us more mature kids, are pretty tired and hungry by the time the finals start. Last year I had to escort a couple of kids out to the concourse because they had reached their limit and needed a break.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

So basically, you run the game on a console or PC connected to the internet. You then have a few people (usually 4-8?) connect to a website (jackbox.tv) and enter a code. Those people then become "participants". After they've joined, you can have people go to the website on the phone, tablet or laptop and enter a code to join the game as an "audience" member. I think there's a limit, so we'd have to see if we could get a special build for FIRST.

Anyway, it's just a bunch of minigames, most of which are based around words, answering questions, or drawing things. The "audience" then votes/selects their favorite, and points are given out based on how many people chose yours. Most points at the end of all the rounds for that game wins.

You put the game up on the screen and next thing you know, everybody's on a game show. It's really quite fun. People have played it on Twitch, too, but it's not the same as hearing people laugh or groan in person.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

And here's where random trivia about streamers that I know comes in handy. The game with the largest capacity that Jackbox offers is Lie Swatter, for 1-100 players supposedly, but crashes spectacularly when there's more than 400 players. It would be interesting to try to work with Jackbox (or any other mobile gaming company) for a party game that works with literally thousands of players.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I watched a student dump an 18 gallon tote full of scouting papers over the balcony last year. It was literally dumping trash onto people below. I got into it with an adult on the team who watched it happen and could only shrug thier shoulders.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I'm not sure the student would be walking out of the dome if that happened on our team... :yikes:

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Actually, I'm a mentor that doesn't think this is that big of deal.

Yes, airplanes shouldn't be thrown when important things are happening and they shouldn't have anything but paper in them. But certainly they're not more dangerous than great big beach balls that routinely hit people in the head.

Paper airplanes are
1. an engineering competition
2. a social activity
3. a science demonstration.

I could go on. They're fun.

Yes, we could be staring into our cell phones instead. I prefer this.

Also, yes, OK, it's a big mess. Especially if people bring paper just for this, but in my experience it's been mostly paper from scouting reports, safety 'posters' and re-used paper and I'm mostly unfolding someone else's airplanes and making better ones. First isn't noted for being terribly green. And if you're re-folding planes, then you're 'reusing' right? The stadium-world is used to cleaning up huge messes after every event.

I'm not sure about this, but I suspect the people that have to clean these up are employees of the stadium, paid by the hour. They'll have to sweep the floor anyway, so sweeping airplanes isn't that much of a big deal. This actually gives them more work, hence more money. I doubt you'll hear them complaining if this is correct. Better than sweeping up beer bottles after a football game.

When I read the title 'being proactive' I thought this string would be about looking up and practicing actual airplane designs that are good, that win contests. Not just the boring barely-works dart planes most of you are throwing.

Yes, I mentor in paper airplane design too.

And if the people in charge want it to stop, and say so, I'll go along, but that wouldn't be my preference.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

People in the stands generally aren't wearing safety glasses. I've had quite a few come close to nailing me in the eye. You are right that beach balls are generally safe though.

Maybe it's been a while since the last explicit message (Though last years GAME NAME is kinda a big hint), but FIRST is trying to be green. They used to have EWatt Light Saver light bulbs to help the environment.

"I'm giving custodians a job and extra hours to work." has got to be one of the dumbest reasons people keep presenting for keeping this. I'd rather give them an extra light night where all of the students clean up after themselves and don't litter all over the dome floor. Be sure to ask your boss for extra hours on the weekends because it means more money.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

What about the confetti? should we stop that too? That's actually provided by the organizers.

No, because it's fun too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=340rbguRulo

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Celebratory confetti is different. It's something the winning Alliance has earned and I imagine the venue knows about well in advance with all of the setup for the system.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I tend to agree that if FIRST thinks it's OK, then it's kinda cool. No lie, I've always wanted to show up with some sort of paper contraption that puts the paper rings to shame.

The issue is that it appears FIRST does not want it, and it's pretty annoying to a lot of people when you get hit with one. We really just need the event to tell people to cut it out if that is what the Championship really wants.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I agree. I find the engineering challenge of the airplanes a lot of fun. Rarely do students have an opportunity to launch their creation from such a lofty site and some of our students will actually work on designs ahead of Championships. As far as dumping paper or throwing balls of paper - that is simply mindless vandalism. Akin to kicking over garbage cans.

Personally, I think the paper airplanes have a lot more going for them than the confetti dumped at the end of the competition. I know from experience it is a lot easier to clean up paper airplanes than small bits of 'confetti'. The confetti lasts all of 5 minutes, gets everywhere, sticks to everything.

As the quoted post mentions, making and throwing the airplanes is an exercise in social engagement. Thousands of students are taking part in a shared engineering challenge. Each has the opportunity to immediately evaluate the success of the others by simple observation and seeing a successful design, speculate on its construction and try it for themselves. Science Centres pay buckets for that kind of social interpretive experience.

I haven't really heard anyone official from FIRST saying to stop testing airplanes. On the contrary, I feel the responses of speakers (Dean) to incoming flyers actually encourages the students. If the organizers were to crack down on anything, I would prefer it to be dumping paper or throwing balls of paper. Continue to encourage experimentation, innovation and creativity in social experiences and I think you would discourage the other stuff.

I do agree with most people that throwing planes onto the field while the competition is happening is pretty poor judgement though.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I think the main issue here, is that there is a lot of waiting around. It is probably too late to organise something like this, but why not give the option to a few teams who didn’t make it to Einstein, but were in the Eliminations to volunteer their robots for some separate competitions before Einstein Occurs, or during long breaks.

Here are some examples of things that happened at events in previous years:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efvCDYTj0Wk

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ight=drag+race (this happened at champs in 2008)

There are a lot of robots with treads and hi-traction pneumatic wheels this year. I think a 3 vs 3 tug of war; with 3 tracked robots vs 3 wheeled robots would be awesome.

Could these be conducted on the concrete arena floor or on carpet, near the Mass and Energy fields?

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Does Frank count as official?

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

They're not so fun when someone gets injured.

I hate to be the old "it's all fun and games until someone loses and eye", but...

I have been hit within a half inch of my eye on three separate occasions by a paper plane at the championship. And when they come from 100 feet overhead, they can hit with a fair amount of force. It was significant enough that I was seriously thankful that it missed my eye. I don't know about you, but I value my eyesight. This is why I'm so against it.

I swear I'm not that old, even though it seems like it in this thread. I'm just sick and tired of getting hit near my eyes.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Not exactly a loud and clear position. If FIRST wants to stop students (and mentors) from throwing airplanes during finals, then it would make sense to be absolutely clear about it. This reads more as an opinion than an official statement. Was anything said the next year before things began? I seem to recall being encouraged during the official speeches to make and throw them.

To be honest, I agree with Frank about one thing. It's a minor issue in the scheme of things.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This would be awesome. Great idea! Put us down for power shooting and tug of war! Unless of course our robot is otherwise (hopefully) occupied!

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

A possible compromise:
Distribute flyers announcing a paper airplane contest, possibly stuffing one in each program book or taking other pains to spread them widely but thinly. Use an unusual paper color. Encourage people to write their name and team number (or other contact information for non-team members) on the flyer, fold it into a plane, and launch it during a brief (2-5 minute) window during the buildup to Einstein. Have some sort of call out for the first person to hit the curtain, and perhaps a few other categories. Make it clear, both on the flyer and through announcements, that throwing paper airplanes (or other paper missiles) at other times or made of other materials is cause for expulsion.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Interesting. I wonder how he was able to get 300+ in there.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I vote for mentor drive team matches.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Power shooting sounds awesome and something that would be great to watch. We can get some real results on whose robot can shooter the furthest(not necessarily into the goal). This could happen between Einstein and the finale, as it wouldn't necessarily take too long.

I like the mentor robot driving!

Anyone else have any ideas?

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Personally I'm scared one of my kids will get hurt by one of these things. I've seen kids and adults, literally all ages, fold paper into sharp points and throw it as hard as they physically can. Having known more than one person to get hit in the eye with one how is this still a thing and how someone hasn't gotten severely injured... I recommend to my kids to wear safety glasses in the stands during this time, tho who wants to when you shouldn't need to.

As an alum, this is the most embarrassing part of Champs. Please walk in the aisles of the lower bowl prior to Einstein and walk on the actual concrete. It's impossible. You are only walking on trash.

As someone who had the honor to be on the field during Einstein last year. How rediculous is it that we have trash being thrown into our robot during the break. Why do I need to have my drivers adjust the placing of a stack because someone thought it'd be fun to throw trash onto the field during play! Why does Dean have to pause his speach because someone threw a plane onto the stage?? I just don't understand how this is a thing. It's just disrespectful. I never remember more than a handful of planes thrown in Atlanta in the 6 years I attended. I could have remembered wrong, but I don't remember it ever being what it is in St Louis.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

If they do something like last year where they do a moment of silence for all the FIRST participants we've lost in the last year, a 21 boulder salute could probably be arranged at the end of it.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

How about showing a movie like: Slingshot, Underwater Dreams, Spare Parts ...

They could stop the movie when something is happening, and resume the movie during extended breaks.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

No where else in FIRST do people argue to put fun and engineering ahead of safety and gracious professionalism, but when it comes to paper airplanes, apparently there's exceptions...

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

One suggestion for giving them something to do that I think might work is to have some folks make up some clever PollEveryWhere Questions (I have no stock in the company but I'm a big fan).

There are a TON of very cool things that you could do with a crowd that big and the huge screens they have.

Ask which field has the best robot alliance on Einstein and watch the results live -- more and more people vote as they see the "wrong" team winning (wrong in this context is any result they don't agree with).

Ask for suggestions from the audience for future game elements and watch a live wordcloud be generated with everyone's answers (swear filters available) -- of course WATER GAME will end up in a HUGE font in the middle of the wordcloud.

Vote for defenses, ask questions about the design challenge this year, maybe pick the best FIRST game ever in a multipart vote off (which was better Hexagon Havoc or Aim High?)...

I think this could be a huge hit and lots of fun actually.

Dr. Joe J.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Some off-season events do this, too. I like the idea of mentor matches!

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

So I did a quick search that can be a bit of an alternative, like Kahoot but on a more capable, diverse, and larger scale. The website for it is http://www.crowdpurr.com and under the plans it has an option for contacting them for extremely large events, claiming that there max participant count is unlimited. I doubt FIRST would have time to plan this at this point so close to Champs, but it can be a posible thought for next year and finding ways to fill in time. Also could be a way to educate people on funny facts/trivia of FIRST.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Do audience selection of defenses on Einstein by having two large circles on the ground labelled "1" and "2". Whichever circle ends up with more paper airplanes in it wins, and that defense is selected.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This is amazing and messy at the same time. I like it.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Beach balls are round, soft, and even when thrown from a height lands with a soft poof before heading off in a direction.

Airplaines have points and are made to cut through the air at a decent clip. Thank you, even without anything on them, THEY CAN CAUSE INJURIES. Wanna tell me otherwise? You can talk to both myself and my student who got hit in the eyebrow hard enough to get her eyebrow to bleed, and myself in the back of the head after trying to get to her to treat her, only to trip on several while trying to get to my student. I also have watched several grandparents go through at the end trying to walk on canes/walkers and whatnot and slipping. I had to hold one up as he walked out because the number of planes on the ground were causing issues with the walkways being super slick.

I have told all the teams that I mentor to not, and I will continue to do so. If I can somehow be out on the field when Einstein rolls around Im going to ask the MC to at least mention to be aware of when and when to not throw them, if you decide to at all. Throwing planes when presenters are talking or when a match is going is in no way shape or fourme acceptable. At that point if I saw my student do that Id treat them like I do with my LL students who wont stop pestering each other. Sit nicely in the chair with your hands on your knees until you calm down and can handle yourself.

Frank has said it, and a lot of prominent voices have said it. Ill add mine officially to the CD "Im an old fart (22 counts right?) who condones the throwing of paper airplanes" group.


EDIT: Someone once told me to participate in FIRST as if all our collective grandparents were watching. I would not want them to see us disrespecting speakers, interrupting matches, or creating a hazardous environment for people to walk around in. Find better ways to entertain yourself please :deadhorse:

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Found this on Reddit today.... I'm just going to leave it here.

https://gfycat.com/SingleDeepEidolonhelvum

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

FIRST is about as proactive about the paper airplanes as they are about seat saving. They make a mention of it and leave it at that ("Saving seats is bad!!" *waves a disapproving finger). If they wanted it to stop they could get really nasty about it and threaten to take away awards from teams that toss paper airplanes and the activity would stop cold because suddenly something teams actually care about("OMG! NO BLUE BANNER?") is being taken away and you'd never see another plane. Alas, FIRST has no interest in doing that and does not have the personnel to police the activity so the planes will keep on flying from now til Armageddon til someone ends up losing an eye and sues FIRST and FIRST does do something about the activity to avoid future legal action.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

So basically like any other company: Defer until it's the only option you have.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

As a team, we spent about an hour discussing this sensitive topic last night.
The final conclusion was that we wouldn't throw them.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

It may be extreme but I told my team if I caught any students throwing them then they would be expelled from the team for the 2017 season.

If your team worked hard enough to make it to Einstein and your driver gets hit in the ear by an airplane during F-3 and it costs them that boulder shot for the win do you think the refs will replay the game? Probably not.

It is immensely unprofessional as well as disrespectful to the facility, the volunteers, and the teams that worked to be on that floor. Although it may be fun to do, you will inevitably have people who abuse that fun and stick pennies in nose of the plane and other nasty things to hit people with.

Matter of fact, I saw one kid steal a roll of paper towels from the bathroom (the big heavy brown paper kind) and toss it over the edge. It did not unspool the entire roll before it hit a luckily empty chair several feet below the deck with a loud neck cracking thump. What if that had hit someone? Obviously that is different than tossing a paper plane but I feel like throwing things has only inspired the throwing of more daring objects.

Just enforce it so it does not get out of hand on your individual teams even if you do not take a hard stance on planes. It really is a huge safety concern to be hit in the eye by a plane. As much as they police safety glasses I am astounded this has not been addressed yet. I used to enjoy taking my glasses off to watch matches at Championships but not anymore.

As far as people calling it a "FIRST Tradition"..... please stop. I have never once seen Championships have as many planes as I did in the 2014 and 2015 seasons. 03, 04, 05, and even up to 2011 you did not see hardly any planes being tossed like you do now.

It has gotten out of hand.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

To echo what has been said here, for the many reasons expressed, we don't believe that it is appropriate either. We talked to the team last night and said, even if a speaker "encourages" it they are not to do so. The only way they are allowed to throw anything, is if Dean himself gets on the stage and asks them to do it. Otherwise, anyone caught doing it will be removed from the dome, and their future participation on the team would certainly be in doubt. Any planes that land in our area, will be immediately put into a trash bag that we will have with us in the stands.

836 will not be throwing paper airplanes in the dome.

Steve

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Ask:
1. Is what I'm doing to stave off boredom safe?
2. Is it courteous to others?
3. Will it not make a mess that others will have to clean up?

For paper airplanes thrown in a stadium, the answers are no, no, and no. That's a triple tortuga on the courtesy outer works.

Don't throw airplanes. It's obnoxious.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

This is a gun

It shoots paper airplanes



Far more entertaining than confetti.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

What's your point?

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

That releasing streams of blunt nosed paper airplanes instead of confetti would be far more entertaining while still providing around the same level of clean up clutter.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

No one said anything about confetti... Also, they're still a pain in the neck to clean up.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

lots of people brought up confetti...

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Im ready for Championships.....

http://www.amazon.com/PowerUp-Smartp...356114&sr=1-84

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Confetti is used to celebrate a winner or something and while it is a pain in the neck to clean up, there is a cause behind releasing confetti. Whereas paper air planes are thrown for fun from the stands and that act itself is disrespectful IMO. There is a difference.

Also I dislike them also because they do hurt. My freshman year during 2013 during Einstein someone chucked one with a bunch of buttons attached on it and it smacked into my head. While it wasn't the end of the world I was still startled/a bit in pain.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Oh man. In the hands of skilled drivers, this is a dangerous tool.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

False. the hardest part of cleaning the airplanes is having to walk through the stands and check every row, if they land on the court they can simple be swept into a pile and disposed of. helping by gathering them around the stands would be a big help to those volunteers and that should be done by everyone

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I don't think you'll be able to keep signal to it beyond about 20ft inside the dome without a serious antenna or amp... but I could be wrong.

Of course, you could just not throw paper airplanes in the dome.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

If you are going to throw airplanes absolutely in no way should you add weight to it. I would really like to not be hit in the face with that.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Some of the Torbot mentors were discussing the topic today. Add us to the "no throw zone" crowd. At least as much as possible...

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Our students will certainly not be participating in paper airplane throwing. Lots of waste for little reason or gain.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

The cleanup should not be much of an issue. After we leave, large numbers of people go down the aisles and collect the soda bottles, food wrappers, confetti they dump at the end of the ceremony, etc., just as they clean up the beer cups and hot dog wrappers after a football game.

The problem, is that it is very inconsiderate to fly the airplanes during the ceremony itself, and during matches.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Crowd based games are one fairly simple solution to this. FIRST could do trivia and have people tweet the answers. They could do bingo. People could also be more proactive about promoting the different opportunities at the event like conferences. I'd want to say they could have a video game tournament.
There are other things you can do at St Louis.
And don't tell me someone accidentally made and threw a paper airplane that was a decision, and you can decide to do any of the other things there.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

I disagree. It's *also* discourteous to leave soda bottles, food wrappers, [beer] cups, hot dog wrappers, and everything else for the cleaning staff (who will have enough to do regardless)--and if FIRST can do anything at all right, it can teach a generation of kids both to clean up after themselves and to not make more of a mess than they have to.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

It is expected that trash will be left in the stands at the Edward Jones Dome, and at the venues for most of the regionals. There are few places to deposit trash, and even fewer places to recycle stuff. I'm not saying it should be that way, but it is. Do the operators of the venue expect the guests to collect the confetti?

As far as paper airplanes, weight should certainly not be added. That is a safety hazard.

Re: Being Proactive About Paper Airplanes on Einstein
 

Expected isn't the same as courteous. Anyone who wants to be responsible for their own trash can easily succeed.