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-   -   Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147568)

Jared Russell 22-04-2016 14:52

Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Are you having a tough time coordinating vision with motion?


Does buggy vision make your robot grasp at things that aren't there?


Do you wish your robot had superhuman powers of perception and control?


If so, join us at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, April 27 in Room AC265 of the America's Center at the FIRST Championship for our session on "Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control".

Here's the abstract:
Quote:

Often the hardest part of solving an FRC computer vision challenge is figuring out how to integrate a camera-based vision algorithm with closed-loop control to automatically point, steer, or drive a mechanism (or the entire robot!). This presentation walks through techniques and best practices that can be employed to mitigate issues like latency, imperfect cameras, and simplified vision algorithms to achieve lightning-fast, precise, and robust control.
This will be presented by Jared and Tom from Team 254, who (together with Austin from Team 971) brought you Motion Planning and Control for FRC last season. We had a great response (and a packed house!) last year, and have incorporated your feedback to make this session even better. To ensure the session is approachable for all levels of experience, we plan on focusing on concrete FRC problems (like auto-aiming a shooter) while showing how concepts like understanding how your camera works, being smart about tuning your vision algorithms, utilizing kinematics, and applying motion control best practices can make your solution better...we want to help teams compete while also opening your students' eyes to how professional roboticists approach similar problems.

And the great news is that all Championship Conference talks will be recorded this year, so you don't need to choose between this session and Karthik's...you can have both!

D.Allred 22-04-2016 15:12

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Thanks Jared. Hopefully I'll be able to attend. Last year's motion profile course was terrific. We were able to incorporate the concepts in an off season project and this year's robot. Look forward to learning more about vision control.

David

generaldgibson 22-04-2016 15:37

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Sounds cool, I'm fairly new to programming but hoping to learn about vision tracking. Can't wait!

orangemoore 22-04-2016 15:42

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Does anyone have a time machine?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=147028

Otherwise this is going to be a tough choice.

Will be recorded again if I don't make it to this session?

generaldgibson 22-04-2016 15:45

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by orangemoore (Post 1577276)
Does anyone have a time machine?

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=147028

Otherwise this is going to be a tough choice.

Will be recorded again if I don't make it to this session?

As OP said, the sessions will be recorded this year - I'm planning on watching one of the two as well :p

orangemoore 22-04-2016 15:46

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by generaldgibson (Post 1577277)
As OP said, the sessions will be recorded this year - I'm planning on watching one of the two as well :p

I should really read better. ::ouch:: ::rtm::

GreyingJay 22-04-2016 15:47

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1577245)
And the great news is that all Championship Conference talks will be recorded this year, so you don't need to choose between this session and Karthik's...you can have both!

YES! This is awesome news. Will they be put up on YouTube or something similar?

There were a whole lot of great looking conferences and since our team didn't make it to Champs I was very tempted to fly out anyway just to experience the sessions.

Tom Bottiglieri 22-04-2016 16:04

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
If anyone has any particular questions on this topic, feel free to post them here. We think we have a good idea of the problems most FRC teams run in to, but it's always good to learn a bit more. We will do our best to address these topics in our presentation!

rich2202 22-04-2016 20:31

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Our main problem is how long it takes to process an image. By the time you process the image. The robot is somewhere else.

Thanks for recording. I'll be robot inspecting, and will miss the Wednesday conferences.

Jared Russell 22-04-2016 20:34

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rich2202 (Post 1577420)
Our main problem is how long it takes to process an image. By the time you process the image. The robot is somewhere else.\

We will DEFINITELY deal with this one :)

Ether 22-04-2016 21:19

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1577245)
And the great news is that all Championship Conference talks will be recorded this year, so you don't need to choose between this session and Karthik's...you can have both!

That is great news.

Do you know if the speaker will be fitted with an on-person mic that feeds electronically into the recorder? Audio quality from acoustic pickup from an on-camera mic at the back of the room is close to inaudible for those of us with aging ears.



alex.lew 22-04-2016 23:14

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ether (Post 1577480)
Do you know if the speaker will be fitted with an on-person mic that feeds electronically into the recorder? Audio quality from acoustic pickup from an on-camera mic at the back of the room is close to inaudible for those of us with aging ears.

young ears too :)

the recordings will be a nice treat post-finals week. thank you for putting this together!

jreneew2 23-04-2016 12:45

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
One question that I hope you will cover is:

When to use vision and when to not use vision. Last year, we had a mentor work on tracking the yellow totes for a couple of weeks and we didn't end up using it at all. :/

However, this year you need vision tracking if you have any hope of shooting a high goal in autonomous.

Thanks,
Drew

marshall 23-04-2016 13:45

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jreneew2 (Post 1577773)
One question that I hope you will cover is:

When to use vision and when to not use vision. Last year, we had a mentor work on tracking the yellow totes for a couple of weeks and we didn't end up using it at all. :/

However, this year you need vision tracking if you have any hope of shooting a high goal in autonomous.

Thanks,
Drew

That's a strategy problem. You have to choose to focus on a task first and then you move to how to use vision to augment or automate performing that task.

I am looking forward to this talk though. I don't know what questions I'll have yet but I know that I'm going to have some.

FlamingSpork 23-04-2016 14:13

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jreneew2 (Post 1577773)
However, this year you need vision tracking if you have any hope of shooting a high goal in autonomous.

My team's robot doesn't have a functioning vision system, and yet still fires a high goal shot in auto. We used a hard-coded position to aim our turret from the spy box.

Jared Russell 23-04-2016 14:48

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ether (Post 1577480)
Do you know if the speaker will be fitted with an on-person mic that feeds electronically into the recorder?

Not sure, but I'll bring this up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jreneew2 (Post 1577773)
When to use vision and when to not use vision. Last year, we had a mentor work on tracking the yellow totes for a couple of weeks and we didn't end up using it at all. :/

While this is not a strategy talk first and foremost, we will most certainly discuss this. In particular, we will look back at the history of vision in FRC and you will quickly notice how often the vision challenge is a diversion for the majority of teams.

JesseK 23-04-2016 18:41

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Mostly likely, I won't be able to attend the conference (either session at 7pm), but I do have a question and a few examples of what I mean.

What are some rules of thumb for the prerequisites to attempting vision?
- Great PID Control (fast settle, little/no overshoot) or "Good Enough" PID Control
- Level of precision on drive train turning or (auton) "drive straight" distance offsets
- For high-load situations, is a braking mechanism necessary

dcarr 23-04-2016 18:43

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1577811)
While this is not a strategy talk first and foremost, we will most certainly discuss this. In particular, we will look back at the history of vision in FRC and you will quickly notice how often the vision challenge is a diversion for the majority of teams.

I think it's interesting that Stronghold seemed to present the "perfect storm" of factors that made vision a viable and extremely value asset for a larger-than-ever subset of teams.

Looking forward to this talk!

Tom Bottiglieri 24-04-2016 23:16

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
I thought I'd share a clip we took today prepping for this conference presentation. We will definitely be going through all the pieces it takes to get a robot tracking like this!


billbo911 24-04-2016 23:25

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Tom and Jared, will you guys be discussing the realities of being able to process frames faster than the camera can produce them?

For example, a camera's maximum frame rate is listed at 30 frames per second, but your vision processing board can process over 80 frames per second.

James Tonthat 25-04-2016 11:00

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Too cool for school!

::ouch::

marshall 25-04-2016 11:23

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri (Post 1578488)
I thought I'd share a clip we took today prepping for this conference presentation. We will definitely be going through all the pieces it takes to get a robot tracking like this!


I didn't know you guys had ILM as a sponsor. ;) I kid.

Seriously cool and I'm really looking forward to this talk now.

billbo911 26-04-2016 01:13

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Some additional questions.
What is the minimum frame rate you feel is acceptable for FRC?
How much lag is acceptable and how do you cope with it.
What is the most efficient way to get targeting data into the RoboRio (TCP, UDP, Serial etc.)?

pmangels17 26-04-2016 10:55

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
I think it will be addressed, but I would be curious to hear exactly how much control on 254 is done by drivers vs with vision. What are your failsafes if the vision board suddenly crashes/shorts/explodes?

Also, what other sensors do you combine with vision for a more complete picture of your control system. For example, if you want to know distance to a target, are you using only a camera for that, or are there other sensors that you use to crosscheck your measurements.

And, specifically on your robot, how do you relay to the drivers that everything is in position for a shot? Is there a giant green check mark, does the system just not let you fire until it's ready, is the firing also controlled autonomously, or do you have a different solution?

Jared Russell 26-04-2016 11:41

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pmangels17 (Post 1579303)
I think it will be addressed, but I would be curious to hear exactly how much control on 254 is done by drivers vs with vision. What are your failsafes if the vision board suddenly crashes/shorts/explodes?

The operator holds a button saying they want to auto aim, and the driver holds a button saying that it's okay to shoot. Everything else is autonomous.

JesseK 26-04-2016 11:43

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1579328)
The operator holds a button saying they want to auto aim, and the driver holds a button saying that it's okay to shoot. Everything else is autonomous.

Hmm - including sensing on the intake and ball pre-positioning?

Jared Russell 26-04-2016 11:45

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesseK (Post 1579329)
Hmm - including sensing on the intake and ball pre-positioning?

The intake also has some automation but no, I was speaking about the aiming and shooting subsystem.

wesleyac 26-04-2016 13:19

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Do you guys find that it's easier to accurately position the turret than it is to turn the drivetrain? That gif is really impressive, and I'm wondering how much of that is the turret being mechanically easier to control. Do you do any motion profiling on it, or is it just PID?

I'm looking forward to your talk!

Jared Russell 26-04-2016 16:32

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wesleyac (Post 1579382)
Do you guys find that it's easier to accurately position the turret than it is to turn the drivetrain? That gif is really impressive, and I'm wondering how much of that is the turret being mechanically easier to control. Do you do any motion profiling on it, or is it just PID?

I'm looking forward to your talk!

The turret is just running position PID (onboard a CAN Talon SRX). Turrets are much easier to control than a drivetrain (inertia, friction, and skidding are basically non-issues).

billbo911 26-04-2016 17:00

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1579484)
The turret is just running position PID (onboard a CAN Talon SRX). Turrets are much easier to control than a drivetrain (inertia, friction, and skidding are basically non-issues).

I assume you are using the camera to generate the set-point. Are you closing the loop with the camera as well, or are you using some other sensor like a gyro or encoder?

4AngryNutjobs 26-04-2016 23:48

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Cannot wait for the talk! My team has struggled inplementing vision in the past, and I am sure this conference will help a bunch! Once the video is posted can someone share the link below?

Cog 27-04-2016 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1577245)
Are you having a tough time coordinating vision with motion?


Does buggy vision make your robot grasp at things that aren't there?


Do you wish your robot had superhuman powers of perception and control?


If so, join us at 7:00 PM on Wednesday, April 27 in Room AC265 of the America's Center at the FIRST Championship for our session on "Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control".

Here's the abstract:


This will be presented by Jared and Tom from Team 254, who (together with Austin from Team 971) brought you Motion Planning and Control for FRC last season. We had a great response (and a packed house!) last year, and have incorporated your feedback to make this session even better. To ensure the session is approachable for all levels of experience, we plan on focusing on concrete FRC problems (like auto-aiming a shooter) while showing how concepts like understanding how your camera works, being smart about tuning your vision algorithms, utilizing kinematics, and applying motion control best practices can make your solution better...we want to help teams compete while also opening your students' eyes to how professional roboticists approach similar problems.

And the great news is that all Championship Conference talks will be recorded this year, so you don't need to choose between this session and Karthik's...you can have both!

I'm sorry if I missed it, but do you know where will the recordings of these seminars be made available?

axton900 28-04-2016 09:30

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
^ Where will the recordings be located???

Steven Smith 28-04-2016 09:43

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Last year's might have been posted elsewhere, but it was on Youtube

Let's keep in mind that these presenters are on top tier teams that likely need their support for the next couple days as they compete. Last year's video was posted ~5-6 days after champs ended, and while I can't speak for the presenters, I would assume you can expect it sometime in the next week or so with a link to it in this thread. I wouldn't want to try to upload that large of a video via hotel internet myself.

That being said, if you haven't watched last year's or if it has been awhile, you can pass the time with the 2015 video which was also very awesome and applicable. I'd argue for the majority of the teams, maybe more applicable than this year's.

Ether 28-04-2016 22:26

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1577245)
And the great news is that all Championship Conference talks will be recorded this year, so you don't need to choose between this session and Karthik's...you can have both!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeanne Boyarsky (Post 1580181)
Someone said they were short so only recording one per timeslot

...

BrianAtlanta 02-05-2016 10:38

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Sadly, I wasn't able to attend the session since I had to fly out Thur morning. When a video is available, if someone could post a link, I would appreciate it.

Thanks,
Brian

Jared Russell 02-05-2016 10:53

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
One way or another I will make sure a recording of this session (of sufficiently high quality) gets posted online. We will just redo it from home (and answer the questions that we received in person) if necessary.

Ether 02-05-2016 10:55

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1581565)
One way or another I will make sure a recording of this session (of sufficiently high quality) gets posted online. We will just redo it from home (and answer the questions that we received in person) if necessary.

Thank you. Very much appreciated.



Jared Russell 02-05-2016 10:58

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Slides are here: https://goo.gl/mppi4E

orangelight 02-05-2016 11:17

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1581570)
Slides are here: https://goo.gl/mppi4E

Thanks

orangemoore 02-05-2016 11:19

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by orangelight (Post 1581586)
It says I don't have access

I must be special because I can get into it.

Also it is an amazing presentation.

Ozuru 02-05-2016 11:19

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1581565)
One way or another I will make sure a recording of this session (of sufficiently high quality) gets posted online. We will just redo it from home (and answer the questions that we received in person) if necessary.

Thank you very much!

dcarr 02-05-2016 12:12

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Here's a phone recording I took of the talk - I missed a minute or so of the intro, and a few questions at the end, but the rest is here.

https://youtu.be/rLwOkAJqImo

Jared and Tom, thanks for a great talk!

billbo911 02-05-2016 13:11

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jared Russell (Post 1581570)
Slides are here: https://goo.gl/mppi4E

This is FANTASTIC! Thank you!

Adithya Balaji 02-05-2016 16:50

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarr (Post 1581630)
Here's a phone recording I took of the talk - I missed a minute or so of the intro, and a few questions at the end, but the rest is here.

https://youtu.be/rLwOkAJqImo

Jared and Tom, thanks for a great talk!

This is awesome!! Thank you for posting this.

Pault 02-05-2016 17:18

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dcarr (Post 1581630)
Here's a phone recording I took of the talk - I missed a minute or so of the intro, and a few questions at the end, but the rest is here.

https://youtu.be/rLwOkAJqImo

Jared and Tom, thanks for a great talk!

Audio on this is perfectly fine, and paired with the slides on a second monitor I was able to get everything out of the presentation.

This was some pretty awesome stuff. I was hoping to have the team work on a new co-processor based vision system over the offseason, and I can see this presentation influencing a lot of it. There was really something in that presentation for everybody; they managed to cover the basics while still focusing on things like predictive vision and how to actually determine the real world coordinates of the goal. Another home run talk by the cheesy poofs; I can't wait to see what they come out with next year.

virtuald 02-05-2016 22:08

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
I flew in late on Wednesday, so I'm sad I missed this and I haven't heard the audio yet. However, the presentation slides are quite excellent!

I know that in 254's current tracker you're using an external processor and aiming for maximum performance for your image processing -- but I'm curious if you've tested the current hardware with a lesser performing camera setup. For example, on the RoboRIO I estimate our image processing code is 320x240 @ 10fps with ~100ms latency (haven't measured lately, but I seem to recall that's what I got when I did measure). How much does your turret tracking degrade with that kind of lower performance? Or does the latency compensation and high quality construction of the turret compensate for that?

Jared Russell 03-05-2016 00:02

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by virtuald (Post 1582134)
How much does your turret tracking degrade with that kind of lower performance? Or does the latency compensation and high quality construction of the turret compensate for that?

It would work fine. The fact that the goal is static, and you can estimate your robot's movement VERY accurately over a few hundred milliseconds, combine to mean that you can do really well even with lots of latency and limited resolution.

Cabey4 04-05-2016 04:22

Re: Integrating Computer Vision with Motion Control - FIRST Championship Conference
 
Has anyone found the magical archive of the talks? I was really looking forward to getting to see this one and karthik's :(
Luckily, you guys have promised getting it online, but if someone could have a link to all of them that would be amazing. There dosen't seem to be anything on the FIRST champs website.


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