Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Except on Einstein.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Exactly, it seems like many refs read the "tipping" part of the rule, but ignored the "Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS" part.

Also, going back to what the OP claims the ref said, the statement that "a foul+yellow card is automatically a red card" is still false.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Similar issue occurred in Hopper Q3M1 where the Holy Cows were tipped over by the defending robot, later self-righting, but losing probably 15-20 seconds of play.

Both times I think the refs made the right call in not carding the alliance that tipped the robot - both robots are tipsy with their manipulating arms raised, and neither time did the defending robot over-do it with the pushing (it looked unintentional).

having watched the match about which this thread is, this was a very similar circumstance - 1296 is somewhat tipsy with its arm up, and the defender came in from the side to try and disrupt the shot. the fact that the opponent was knocked over so easily was a fault in their design, not the actions of their opponents

bro, chill. no one is perfect, and those referees volunteer a helluvalot of time towards their jobs so that they can do their best. they deserve respect and understanding before derision.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Very true. I am curious why that was. Is it just a result of the best refs being on the field? Is it a coincidence that this one instance was considered to not be the defender's fault? Is it actually because 330 got back up? Is it because the referees wanted to let the win happen naturally because it was more exciting that way?

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I was getting at the disparity between the Newton match ruling and the Einstein semifinal match ruling. The rule says that the strategy of tipping gets only a yellow card and a foul, harm or incapacitation has to occur to warrant a red card. Thus bringing up the point, when is a robot considered incapacitated?

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I just want to say that FIRST needs a better method for allowing teams to communicate with refs when it comes to these types of rulings. A red card has very strong implications for a team, particularly when it comes to alliance selection, overall rank, and future reputation.

I understand why FIRST implemented their policy about the question box and have student-only representation communicating with the ref. If I were in the ref's position I would hate to spend half my time explaining every small foul to a belligerent adult mentor.

But when it comes to red cards and the severe implications of it, I don't think we were being fairly treated here. The head ref fully ignored us for well over another match (did not acknowledge our presence in the question box until the match after us was played). When she finally did stop by, she refused to speak to the (tipped-over) alliance team's coach who was simply waiting around in the hopes to defend us. The field did not give either team an opportunity to better understand why we were being red carded (because the initial description of the ruling -- combo of yellow card and foul = red card was an incorrect interpretation of a rule) or allow us to explain ourselves.

I'm not asking for a "new" question box for mentors to argue and complain about unfair fouls. I'm asking for a resource where teams can discuss, or possibly seek appeal, for very strong field decisions such as red cards and disqualifications, possibly from a lead ref who's not as busy watching matches.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I'm just hypothesizing, but maybe there was some misunderstanding somewhere along the way. You are correct in your assessment that a yellow card and a foul does not warrant a red card automatically.

Here's my description of the penalties associated with tipping a robot:
The strategy aimed at tipping a robot earns a yellow card and a foul. If it incapacitates the robot, then a red card is issued.
So
But

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

After watching the replay, I find it very unlikely that 4276 would have gotten a yellow card if 1296 had not fallen over. As the rule is written, that seems like a necessary criteria before issuing a red card.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

To be fair, you bolded the part that wasn't important. You should have focused here instead:

Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS

If your strategy is aimed to tip the robot, it's a yellow card. This relies on intent. If typical game contact causes a tip, that isn't a strategy aimed at inhibiting the robot and G24 doesn't apply. THIS is why they're suggesting reading the rules is important. Tipping, by itself, isn't illegal. In some cases, it shouldn't be carded at all. If the team is using a strategy to tip the robot, then by all means throw the flag and nobody will complain. If a robot gets tipped hitting another robot after flying over a defense, you cannot reasonably expect the hit team to have the means to teleport out of the way or get a red card. That's not about strategy. It's just a collision.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

At champs, this might be feasible. There were some strong volunteers floating between fields that easily could take a look at some of these situations.

I think the problem here is the events try to keep the same staffing at each event. There's a LRI at each regional and the same at each division for champs, etc. If we have this extra ref at champs, we'd expect to have the same role at regionals.

At that point, we run into a new issue. Some events are flowing with volunteers. Others struggle to find enough volunteers to staff an event. I helped with an event this year that didn't have enough refs to handle the event until a few days prior to it kicking off. These events would struggle to add the extra individual. I'd stress patience in this respect. There's going to be some downtime for the ref. Sooner or later, a team will struggle to connect to the field. While the FTA is running around trying to resolve that, the ref has some time. Let them know you're willing to stick around to have the conversation and understand they're wearing several hats. I doubt many will blow you off if you try to work around their other duties.