Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Hi everyone -- I just wanted to hopefully have a conversation about a red card ruling we were on the wrong side of in the Newton division, Match 123.
My team (4276) was sitting in our own courtyard to play defense next to the batter when an opposing robot (Team 1296) drove over an outer works and eventually into our bot.

Unfortunately, as they drove into us their bumper caught above ours and caused their own robot to tip sideways. We backed away immediately, and about 10 seconds later Team 1296 was tipped back upright and continued the match as usual.
After the match we were issued a red card (deducting 4 ranking points from our team).

Team 1296 immediately came to our defense, explaining to the ref that they didn't feel it was intentional, that we were not at fault for the tipping.

When my students approached the question box and spoke to the head ref, the ref explained that what we did was a yellow card and a foul, and the combination of these two penalties automatically results in a red card. Besides a mutual agreement between teams that the tipping was not intentional and did not affect the game, I didn't think the ref's explanation about this was accurate (we were never issued a yellow card for any other reason at Champs).
I don't think anything can be done at this point, but I am just not sure we were being treated fairly by the refs in this case. Is there any process in place to discuss these things at the competition when an obviously very busy head ref simply doesn't have the time to hear us out and let us explain the situation?

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

The majority of the time the ref(s) will not change their ruling. though they might hear you out and let you explain but 99% of the time the will not change it.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I see that you've been an FLL ref, but unless you have been an FRC ref, I would suggest not claiming what is or isn't done.

OP -- From your description of the events, I think you are right in that the call shouldn't have been a red card (also I have no idea how YC + Foul = RC, that's new to me :confused: ) As far as putting processes in place to help refs and head refs to make the right calls accurately in a split second, well that's a dead horse that's been beaten over and over. The other aspect of it, changing a bad call after the fact, I've seen calls changed plenty of times before, but most often it has to do with what the refs see/say more so than the teams view/opinion. It's not a perfect system by any means

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I'm not sure how being an FRC ref is at all relevant to the point he made. Maybe he has a small sample size, but you don't need to be a ref to see if head referees tend to revert a lot of calls based on team's in the question box.

EDIT: just to clarify: I think that 99% is an overexaggheration. It really depends on the ref: I have seen refs never budge, and I have seen the semifinals at NECHAMPS this year where the head ref spent about an hour talking to teams and considering what to do when a scoring error occured. But that is beside my point.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

This is similar to the match in which we, 3937, were flipped by Code Orange. Their intake was out and went right under us from the side and we flipped. We went to the question box and told them that we didn't think it was intentional, therefore, they shouldn't have been issued a red card. It was just a strange happenings of events, and we knew they didn't have any intent. I think the flipping rule is just hard to judge in general. Our refs already have a lot on their plate and judging intent is hard enough by itself. Shoutout to all FRC refs, you have a tough job!

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

A foul + yellow card is the standard penalty for strategies aimed at tipping.

A red card should only be pulled if incapacitation results.

Might be a good idea to try to locate the Chief Referee and ask him to clarify the rules on that point. (And, if he happens to clarify differently than the on-field head ref, asking him to clarify to that head ref may be an option.)

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I just want to highlight this. 1296 is a great team and their drivers are a class act. It might not have helped in this situation as far as the ref's ruling but I know having the opposing team on your side during a ruling like that can help to elevate the spirits on your own team.

I saw that match and it was confusing as to what exactly the refs were giving the red card for. They announced it was for flipping 1296 and I don't think they were ever out of play for more than a second or two and it definitely was not intentional.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

In general I've noticed that the refs have been a bit more liberal with the red/yellow cards in the quals. The refs don't appear to be as forgiving as they were for earlier events.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Watching a decent amount of matches yesterday and I saw three red cards for flipping and one flip where there was not (IIRC). It seemed that if a robot got flipped primarily due to contact with an opponent, a red card came out. I think they were being overly strict on the interpretation.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

My immediate response to this would have been: BASED ON WHAT RULE?

I'm getting so sick of all these invented excuses to give out Red Cards. Flipping is not an automatic red card, refs need to read the manual like the rest of us are expected to.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

As a mentor on the sidelines, my first reaction to this action on the field was, "Oh crap, they're going to card us." This was most likely because 16 got a red card 3 matches earlier for a pretty hard flip of 48.

Newton Q120: https://youtu.be/y56cRWjvW-c?t=56s
You can see 48 playing a hard pin on 16 and the ref does nothing. 16 responds by bulldozing 48 into the courtyard. Red card.

Newton Q123: https://youtu.be/G1H6jq2Q10A?t=1m39s
We receive a foul for contacting a robot on the outerworks. We then hit 1296 while they're shooting. This goes against what Eric though, and what I thought I saw at the time (I thought we were both moving). However, it was a pretty quick hit.

I feel these two incidents are VERY different, but the head ref felt otherwise.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

And what about 330 in Einstein Semifinal match 1-2? They were tipped, but they recovered, and there wasn't a red card for it (there couldn't have been one because there was a tiebreaker match after).

Of course, the second time they tipped was obviously not due to an opponent, as it was from falling while scaling.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

...
Being a ref is hard enough. As a first year ref, and considering becoming a regular Referee (at least, until I can break onto the Game Announcer / MC field), it's posts like that, that make me a little terrified of the job.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I guess they probably could have made the definition of incapacitated clearer. Is it making a robot unable to move for 5ish seconds? or the rest of the match?

Possibly something to add to the glossary next year?

They do have the rule about not touching a tipped robot for 10 seconds, but I have no idea if that was ever enforced this year.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

The problem isn't the definition of incapacitate, it's the definition of intentional. This year it seems like any sort of defense that resulted in a tipped robot was cause for a red card, even when it seemed like that defensive bot was playing normally and the offensive bot was not very stable.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Except on Einstein.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Exactly, it seems like many refs read the "tipping" part of the rule, but ignored the "Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS" part.

Also, going back to what the OP claims the ref said, the statement that "a foul+yellow card is automatically a red card" is still false.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Similar issue occurred in Hopper Q3M1 where the Holy Cows were tipped over by the defending robot, later self-righting, but losing probably 15-20 seconds of play.

Both times I think the refs made the right call in not carding the alliance that tipped the robot - both robots are tipsy with their manipulating arms raised, and neither time did the defending robot over-do it with the pushing (it looked unintentional).

having watched the match about which this thread is, this was a very similar circumstance - 1296 is somewhat tipsy with its arm up, and the defender came in from the side to try and disrupt the shot. the fact that the opponent was knocked over so easily was a fault in their design, not the actions of their opponents

bro, chill. no one is perfect, and those referees volunteer a helluvalot of time towards their jobs so that they can do their best. they deserve respect and understanding before derision.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

Very true. I am curious why that was. Is it just a result of the best refs being on the field? Is it a coincidence that this one instance was considered to not be the defender's fault? Is it actually because 330 got back up? Is it because the referees wanted to let the win happen naturally because it was more exciting that way?

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I was getting at the disparity between the Newton match ruling and the Einstein semifinal match ruling. The rule says that the strategy of tipping gets only a yellow card and a foul, harm or incapacitation has to occur to warrant a red card. Thus bringing up the point, when is a robot considered incapacitated?

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I just want to say that FIRST needs a better method for allowing teams to communicate with refs when it comes to these types of rulings. A red card has very strong implications for a team, particularly when it comes to alliance selection, overall rank, and future reputation.

I understand why FIRST implemented their policy about the question box and have student-only representation communicating with the ref. If I were in the ref's position I would hate to spend half my time explaining every small foul to a belligerent adult mentor.

But when it comes to red cards and the severe implications of it, I don't think we were being fairly treated here. The head ref fully ignored us for well over another match (did not acknowledge our presence in the question box until the match after us was played). When she finally did stop by, she refused to speak to the (tipped-over) alliance team's coach who was simply waiting around in the hopes to defend us. The field did not give either team an opportunity to better understand why we were being red carded (because the initial description of the ruling -- combo of yellow card and foul = red card was an incorrect interpretation of a rule) or allow us to explain ourselves.

I'm not asking for a "new" question box for mentors to argue and complain about unfair fouls. I'm asking for a resource where teams can discuss, or possibly seek appeal, for very strong field decisions such as red cards and disqualifications, possibly from a lead ref who's not as busy watching matches.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

I'm just hypothesizing, but maybe there was some misunderstanding somewhere along the way. You are correct in your assessment that a yellow card and a foul does not warrant a red card automatically.

Here's my description of the penalties associated with tipping a robot:
The strategy aimed at tipping a robot earns a yellow card and a foul. If it incapacitates the robot, then a red card is issued.
So
But

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

After watching the replay, I find it very unlikely that 4276 would have gotten a yellow card if 1296 had not fallen over. As the rule is written, that seems like a necessary criteria before issuing a red card.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

To be fair, you bolded the part that wasn't important. You should have focused here instead:

Strategies aimed at the destruction or inhibition of ROBOTS

If your strategy is aimed to tip the robot, it's a yellow card. This relies on intent. If typical game contact causes a tip, that isn't a strategy aimed at inhibiting the robot and G24 doesn't apply. THIS is why they're suggesting reading the rules is important. Tipping, by itself, isn't illegal. In some cases, it shouldn't be carded at all. If the team is using a strategy to tip the robot, then by all means throw the flag and nobody will complain. If a robot gets tipped hitting another robot after flying over a defense, you cannot reasonably expect the hit team to have the means to teleport out of the way or get a red card. That's not about strategy. It's just a collision.

Re: Unfortunate Red Card Ruling on Newton
 

At champs, this might be feasible. There were some strong volunteers floating between fields that easily could take a look at some of these situations.

I think the problem here is the events try to keep the same staffing at each event. There's a LRI at each regional and the same at each division for champs, etc. If we have this extra ref at champs, we'd expect to have the same role at regionals.

At that point, we run into a new issue. Some events are flowing with volunteers. Others struggle to find enough volunteers to staff an event. I helped with an event this year that didn't have enough refs to handle the event until a few days prior to it kicking off. These events would struggle to add the extra individual. I'd stress patience in this respect. There's going to be some downtime for the ref. Sooner or later, a team will struggle to connect to the field. While the FTA is running around trying to resolve that, the ref has some time. Let them know you're willing to stick around to have the conversation and understand they're wearing several hats. I doubt many will blow you off if you try to work around their other duties.