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AndyBare 01-05-2016 00:54
Upset Percentage
 
Does anyone have a percentage of all elimination matches, within all divisions, and extending onto Einstein, that were upsets (lower seed beating higher seed)? Competitions this year were insane, and from my knowledge, I'd say by far the most unpredictable in FIRST's history (at least since 2011). Can I get some older vet's opinions on this? Also, I'd like to hear opinions on why.

LDiDomenico 01-05-2016 02:32
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1580964)
Does anyone have a percentage of all elimination matches, within all divisions, and extending onto Einstein, that were upsets (lower seed beating higher seed)? Competitions this year were insane, and from my knowledge, I'd say by far the most unpredictable in FIRST's history (at least since 2011). Can I get some older vet's opinions on this? Also, I'd like to hear opinions on why.
I found it really interesting that Curie was 100% upsets in eliminations this year. It really shows how crucial the 2nd pick is to winning in the elimination rounds and the later seeds do get better picks in the second round.

AndyBare 01-05-2016 19:14
Re: Upset Percentage
 
To rephrase, and hopefully garner some more conversation/thoughts, here are the outcomes and calculations.

Each field has 4 Quarterfinal pairings (Q), 2 Semifinal pairings (S) and one Final pairing (F) for a total of 7 pairings.
With 8 division fields and Einstein, we have 9 fields total, with 7 pairings each, for a total of [edit fixed: 63] pairings.

Pairings with upsets:
Archimedes
Alliance 3/2 - S - 1
Carson
Alliance 5/4 - Q - 2
Alliance 7/2 - Q - 3
Alliance 4/1 - S - 4
Alliance 4/3 - F - 5
Carver
Alliance 5/4 - Q - 6
Alliance 6/3 - Q - 7
Alliance 2/1 - F - 8
Curie
Alliance 8/1 - Q - 9
Alliance 7/2 - Q - 10
Alliance 6/3 - Q - 11
Alliance 5/4 - Q - 12
Alliance 8/5 - S - 13
Alliance 7/6 - S - 14
Alliance 8/7 - F - 15
Galileo
Alliance 6/3 - Q - 16
Alliance 6/2 - Q - 17
Hopper
Alliance 7/2 - Q - 18
Newton
Alliance 7/2 - Q - 19
Alliance 7/3 - S - 20
Alliance 7/1 - F - 21
Tesla
Alliance 3/2 - S - 22
Einstein
Alliance 8/1 - Q - 23
Alliance 7/2 - Q - 24
Alliance 6/3 - Q - 25
Alliance 6/4 - S - 26
Alliance 7/6 - F - 27

Above you see that 27 out of those edit [63] pairings were upsets, giving us an upset rating of 42.8%.

So has anyone in FIRST ever seen anything quite this unpredictable before, or was this the most unpredictable Championship you've seen?
Why?

Whatever 01-05-2016 19:39
Re: Upset Percentage
 
On Galileo 6 also beat 2 in the semis.

Not counting Einstein - that would 22 upsets out of 56 (7*8) or 39.3%.

Caleb Sykes 01-05-2016 19:56
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1581231)
Curie
Alliance 8/1 - Q - 9
Alliance 7/2 - Q - 10
Alliance 6/3 - Q - 11
Alliance 5/4 - Q - 12
Alliance 8/5 - S - 13
Alliance 7/6 - S - 14
Alliance 8/7 - F - 15
I didn't think I would ever see a reverse perfect bracket. That is ridiculous.

Caleb Sykes 01-05-2016 19:58
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1581231)
Above you see that 26 out of those 36 pairings were upsets, giving us an upset rating of 72%.
Where does the number 36 come from?

lamiet01 01-05-2016 20:48
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Looks like a typo. Last I knew, 7*9 was 63, not 36.

AndyBare 01-05-2016 21:19
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lamiet01 (Post 1581300)
Looks like a typo. Last I knew, 7*9 was 63, not 36.
Yep fixed it, thanks! Do you guys think that poor scouting had a part in this? Teams looking at RP instead of accuracy, shots per match, etc.?

bam-bam 01-05-2016 21:37
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1581318)
Yep fixed it, thanks! Do you guys think that poor scouting had a part in this? Teams looking at RP instead of accuracy, shots per match, etc.?
A quick glance at OPR seems to show a very small spread between each team in the top 15 for Curie. Other divisions show a clear 2-5 robots ahead in OPR from the rest.

I didn't watch Curie, so I'm not sure how things went down. It did seem easier, however, for the lower seeds to scoop up some high goal scorers/scalers in the later picks. I'm going under the assumption that the top half or so were strong enough that no one stood out more than another, so the #5-6 pick would be able to match the output of a #1 pick, #8 captain was strong enough to pick robots to match the output of #1 alliance, etc.

Jeanne Boyarsky 01-05-2016 22:11
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bam-bam (Post 1581329)
I didn't watch Curie, so I'm not sure how things went down. It did seem easier, however, for the lower seeds to scoop up some high goal scorers/scalers in the later picks. I'm going under the assumption that the top half or so were strong enough that no one stood out more than another, so the #5-6 pick would be able to match the output of a #1 pick, #8 captain was strong enough to pick robots to match the output of #1 alliance, etc.
Another interesting thing about Curie is that only one of the top 8 picked another in the top 8 as their pick (and the offer was declined.) I'm not a scout and don't pay attention to that so I asked a scout yesterday. He said he though it was because many of the top seeds were low goal scorers so didn't want to pick another low goal scorer.

(I'm a mentor on the #8 team on Curie)

AndyBare 02-05-2016 08:40
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeanne Boyarsky (Post 1581341)
Another interesting thing about Curie is that only one of the top 8 picked another in the top 8 as their pick (and the offer was declined.) I'm not a scout and don't pay attention to that so I asked a scout yesterday. He said he though it was because many of the top seeds were low goal scorers so didn't want to pick another low goal scorer.

(I'm a mentor on the #8 team on Curie)
Jeanne, I watched the online streams from home, and I came to the same conclusion. I think the fact that an alliance that won a match but didn't capture or breach would gain 2 rp, and alliances that lost, but breached and captured would also gain 2 rp, skewed rankings quite a bit. Some top 8 teams, I think probably, had (possibly) bad scouting because they weren't prepared to be where they ended up, and some lower ranks, I'm certain, were pushed out of higher ranked positions. That being said, I think Curie had some really good scouting teams out there. I mean the perfect reverse bracket speaks for itself. Incredible.

[Edit] That being said, will FIRST introduce so many possibilities for ranking points next year? Maybe not. I certainly hope not. I remember in 2012 coopertition points were a boost to the good and the bold. 2012 IMO was a very good example of how dual ranking points could highlight really above average teams. This year however, instead of being a boost, it was a possible equalizer. I think it probably looked good in theory / on paper, but not in the actual season.
Heck, I wouldn't care if we went back to seeds being fully reliant on W/L/T. Good scouting will bring out the best.

OccamzRazor 02-05-2016 09:01
Re: Upset Percentage
 
The fact that Curie division had a 100% upset in the bracket proves that the scouting data those teams had were beyond poor. Besides the fact we knew the number one seed was unlikely to win because they were not a high goal shooter, it should have been much easier to make stronger alliances by checking for high goal consistency.

Our data which I think we can release soon will show that 3339 with a range of (2-9) and 836 with a range of (4-7) were the two best high goal shooters by our own judgement in the division and that nobody else caught it. They were both second picks which I find ridiculous considering the number of shots they made and with such consistency. Honorably mentions to 166 (1-7) and 3641(0-8) who are also really good high goal robots. What it came down to was how the robots were designed and if a defender could stop them, where they shot from, did they score 0s, etc.

It would have been terrifying if 876 and 3339 were on the same alliance and that almost happened!

AndyBare 02-05-2016 09:18
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccamzRazor (Post 1581508)
The fact that Curie division had a 100% upset in the bracket proves that the scouting data those teams had were beyond poor. Besides the fact we knew the number one seed was unlikely to win because they were not a high goal shooter, it should have been much easier to make stronger alliances by checking for high goal consistency.

It would have been terrifying if 876 and 3339 were on the same alliance and that almost happened!
Oh, I definitely agree! After watching, I can't say I was thrilled to watch my first 100% upset bracket. It's cool to see an underdog or two in competition, but my main point was that at this magnitude, all the upsets were maybe the deal-breaker for me. Took Stronghold from "a really good game" to a "really good game to an extent" in my mind. Maybe that makes me a poor sport? Maybe not.

Citrus Dad 02-05-2016 16:12
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OccamzRazor (Post 1581508)
The fact that Curie division had a 100% upset in the bracket proves that the scouting data those teams had were beyond poor. Besides the fact we knew the number one seed was unlikely to win because they were not a high goal shooter, it should have been much easier to make stronger alliances by checking for high goal consistency.

Our data which I think we can release soon will show that 3339 with a range of (2-9) and 836 with a range of (4-7) were the two best high goal shooters by our own judgement in the division and that nobody else caught it. They were both second picks which I find ridiculous considering the number of shots they made and with such consistency. Honorably mentions to 166 (1-7) and 3641(0-8) who are also really good high goal robots. What it came down to was how the robots were designed and if a defender could stop them, where they shot from, did they score 0s, etc.

It would have been terrifying if 876 and 3339 were on the same alliance and that almost happened!
I saw 1983's data, and the Skunks were the #2 highest producing bot (after a team with a scoring quirk). They were the #2 pick (and nearly #1). I expect that they offered their data and draft experience to the #1 captain. Note that none of those teams you listed could be around for the #1 seed, and that that 3339 was the #9 pick. So I wouldn't blame the scouting or drafting.

It was the result of the ranking system that rewarded getting just enough poiints to win low-scoring matches, two separate tasks that became integrated into elimination scoring. So 3 separate tasks became only in the playoffs. As a result schedule became even more important. An unbalanced schedule allowed certain teams to accomplish those tasks more easily thanks to the help of stronger teams, and stronger teams were hurt when an alliance mate failed to accomplish a task.

If 686 had not gotten back to the batter in time in the last match for 148, Hopper would have looked a lot more like Curie.

OccamzRazor 11-05-2016 14:19
Re: Upset Percentage
 
2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus Dad (Post 1581881)
I saw 1983's data, and the Skunks were the #2 highest producing bot (after a team with a scoring quirk). They were the #2 pick (and nearly #1). I expect that they offered their data and draft experience to the #1 captain. Note that none of those teams you listed could be around for the #1 seed, and that that 3339 was the #9 pick. So I wouldn't blame the scouting or drafting.

It was the result of the ranking system that rewarded getting just enough poiints to win low-scoring matches, two separate tasks that became integrated into elimination scoring. So 3 separate tasks became only in the playoffs. As a result schedule became even more important. An unbalanced schedule allowed certain teams to accomplish those tasks more easily thanks to the help of stronger teams, and stronger teams were hurt when an alliance mate failed to accomplish a task.

If 686 had not gotten back to the batter in time in the last match for 148, Hopper would have looked a lot more like Curie.
They (1983) shared their data with us during a match but I feel like the scouts of a team usually do not scout their own team's performance fairly. I have this problem on my own team where people will put down awesome things about one of our bad matches and scout our robot to be better than it actually is.

I will attached our top 20 posted scores which we did later edit for consistency.

(Not to discredit any team because I love this robot design)

1983 crossed 28 defenses, scored 21 high goals, and scored 7 low goals in the qualifications which put them in our data after we ranked for consistency around 15th in overall effectiveness in Curie for a high goal shooter. I would be interested in seeing their data because I loved their graphic color charts and the way the data is organized. Maybe I am misunderstanding the term "producing" but they scored a lot less defenses (41) and half as many high goals (48) as the highest robots in those scoring categories.

This is why I was confused at the alliance selection when there were many other robots that should have bubbled to the top a lot faster. 3339 and 876 being prime examples, what if 1089 had picked one of them! Either way, it was an exciting and interesting turn of events in Curie :D

Gogoyogert 11-05-2016 14:23
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Here is a spreadsheet I made for English class with all the upsets from the past 4 years: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Rangel(kf7fdb) 11-05-2016 14:32
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Something I think a lot of teams did across the board for champs that might not be ideal was scouting defense crossings and using that to help calculate overall scores for robots. We opted to not even scout crossings since the breach is guaranteed at the championships level. That being said I wish we did scout crossings just so we can compare what our overall scores list would look like when comparing crossings vs without crossing. I would imagine teams that focus more on poaching the enemies secret passage would move up in our scouting ranking vs teams that cycle.

GeeTwo 11-05-2016 15:28
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogoyogert (Post 1585918)
Here is a spreadsheet I made for English class with all the upsets from the past 4 years: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
The numbers on the total do not match the individuals. Looks like you missed three upsets on Galileo on the total?

Gogoyogert 11-05-2016 15:32
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Looks like your right. Thanks for point that out! I'll update it right now.

Gregor 11-05-2016 16:22
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gogoyogert (Post 1585918)
Here is a spreadsheet I made for English class with all the upsets from the past 4 years: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
I wish I could have done something that cool for English class...

Ether 11-05-2016 16:42
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyBare (Post 1580964)
Does anyone have a percentage of all elimination matches, within all divisions, and extending onto Einstein, that were upsets (lower seed beating higher seed)?
To answer that question definitively, perhaps a SQL guru will write a script to query Jaci's 2016 SQL database.

Nate Laverdure 11-05-2016 17:30
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes (Post 1581268)
I didn't think I would ever see a reverse perfect bracket. That is ridiculous.
There are only 2^7=128 possible elim outcomes. TBA lists 142 events in 2016 alone. It's likely to happen at some frequency.

Whatever 11-05-2016 17:52
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Handy table for the odds of a perfect reverse bracket
50% odds of underdog winning-->Once every 128 tournaments
45% --> once every 268 tournaments (roughly 2 years)
40% --> once every 610 tournaments (roughly 4 years)
35% --> once every 1554 tournaments (roughly 10 years)
30% --> once every 4572 tournaments (roughly 30 years)
25% --> once every 16,384 tournaments (roughly 100 years)
20% --> once every 78,125 tournaments (roughly 600 years)

markmcgary 11-05-2016 18:46
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether (Post 1585954)
To answer that question definitively, perhaps a SQL guru will write a script to query Jaci's 2016 SQL database.
That sounds like a challenge. According to my query, there were 720 upsets out of 2273 playoff matches. This does not count ties where the fouls determined the outcome. I checked this against Einstein and it looks accurate.

Code:
select matches.event, events.name, match_levels.name, matches.set_number, matches.match_number,
red_scores.total_points as red_points, blue_scores.total_points as blue_points from matches
inner join events on matches.event = events.id
inner join match_levels on matches.match_level = match_levels.id
inner join match_scores as red_scores on matches.id = red_scores.match
inner join match_scores as blue_scores on matches.id = blue_scores.match
where match_level > 1
and red_scores.alliance_color = "red"
and blue_scores.alliance_color = "blue"
and blue_points > red_points
and events.is_official = 1
order by matches.event
Edit: You can add one upset for Einstein Final Match 3 which I know was tied. That makes 31.7% playoff upsets.

Edit 2: I added some logic to figure out upsets that were tie scores. That added 7 total upsets. 32%. Interestingly, 4322 won an upset on a tie at OCR QF2-1. That match now shows in the results.
Code:
and (blue_points > red_points or (blue_points = red_points and blue_scores.foul_points > red_scores.foul_points))

antman 12-05-2016 18:44
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1585969)
Code:
and (blue_points > red_points or (blue_points = red_points and blue_scores.foul_points > red_scores.foul_points))
You are assuming the blue alliance is always the lower-seeded alliance. This isn't always the case. For example:

<http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016pncmp_f1m1>

we were on the red alliance even though we were the #5 alliance going against the #2 alliance.

markmcgary 12-05-2016 19:55
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by antman (Post 1586265)
You are assuming the blue alliance is always the lower-seeded alliance. This isn't always the case. For example:

<http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016pncmp_f1m1>

we were on the red alliance even though we were the #5 alliance going against the #2 alliance.
That could certainly impact the results. I thought that red was always the higher seeded alliance and alliances sometimes change bumper colors during playoffs to maintain that relationship. I'd have to study the database design more deeply to determine the relationships between the matches, alliances and their seeding. I took the easy way assuming (incorrectly?) that blue was always the lower seed. The SQL will get more ugly. I wonder how significant will be the impact on the percentage?

Ether 12-05-2016 20:04
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1586281)
I'd have to study the database design more deeply to determine the relationships between the matches, alliances and their seeding.
The "alliance_picks" table has the alliance seeding.

EricH 12-05-2016 20:06
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by markmcgary (Post 1586281)
That could certainly impact the results. I thought that red was always the higher seeded alliance and alliances sometimes change bumper colors during playoffs to maintain that relationship. I'd have to study the database design more deeply to determine the relationships between the matches, alliances and their seeding. I took the easy way assuming (incorrectly?) that blue was always the lower seed. The SQL will get more ugly. I wonder how significant will be the impact on the percentage?
Easy way to do it: Red is from the highest seed in that branch of the bracket (1-8/4-5|2-7/3-6), regardless of if that seed moves on. #8 has red over #2, should they meet in finals.

Thus, #1 is always red. #8 is blue, but can take over red if they beat #1. #2 is red, unless they're in finals; #7 is blue unless they beat #2. #3 is red against #6, and blue otherwise (#6 is always blue). #4 is red against #5, blue for semis, and red for finals (while #5 is blue unless they're in finals).


Or, to put it another way:
Alliance: QFs, SFs, Fs (assuming they make it that far)
#1: R, R, R
#2: R, R, B
#3: R, B, B
#4: R, B, R
#5: B, B, R
#6: B, B, B
#7: B, R, B
#8: B, R, R

Best reason to be on the #1 alliance, you don't change your bumper color. (OK, so #6 has the same perk...)

CalTran 12-05-2016 20:19
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1586286)
#6: B, B, B
Best reason to be on the #1 alliance, you don't change your bumper color. (OK, so #6 has the same perk...)
Some robots just look better in blue anyways.

orangemoore 12-05-2016 20:43
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalTran (Post 1586288)
Some robots just look better in blue anyways.
254.

markmcgary 12-05-2016 23:52
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether (Post 1586284)
The "alliance_picks" table has the alliance seeding.
Thank you. I'll correct the query. Can't abide bogus results.

markmcgary 13-05-2016 12:59
Re: Upset Percentage
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ether (Post 1586284)
The "alliance_picks" table has the alliance seeding.
I found the seeding value in alliances.num.

This SQL may not be the most efficient, but it works:

Code:
select distinct events.name as Event, match_levels.name as Round, matches.set_number as Number, matches.match_number as Match,
red_alliance.num as red_seed, red_teams.team as red_captain, red_scores.total_points as red_points,
blue_alliance.num as blue_seed, blue_teams.team as blue_captain, blue_scores.total_points as blue_points from matches
inner join events on matches.event = events.id
inner join match_levels on matches.match_level = match_levels.id
inner join match_teams as red_teams on matches.id = red_teams.match
inner join match_teams as blue_teams on matches.id = blue_teams.match
inner join alliance_picks as red_alliance_picks on red_teams.team = red_alliance_picks.team
inner join alliance_picks as blue_alliance_picks on blue_teams.team = blue_alliance_picks.team
inner join alliances as red_alliance on events.id = red_alliance.event and red_alliance_picks.alliance = red_alliance.id
inner join alliances as blue_alliance on events.id = blue_alliance.event and blue_alliance_picks.alliance = blue_alliance.id
inner join match_scores as red_scores on matches.id = red_scores.match
inner join match_scores as blue_scores on matches.id = blue_scores.match
where match_level > 1
and red_alliance_picks.pick = 0
and blue_alliance_picks.pick = 0
and red_teams.alliance_color = "red"
and blue_teams.alliance_color = "blue"
and red_scores.alliance_color = "red"
and blue_scores.alliance_color = "blue"
and ((red_seed > blue_seed and (red_points > blue_points or (red_points = blue_points and red_scores.foul_points > blue_scores.foul_points)))
 or  (blue_seed > red_seed and blue_points > red_points or (blue_points = red_points and blue_scores.foul_points > red_scores.foul_points)))
and events.is_official = 1
order by events.name, match_levels.id, set_number, match_number
Results are:
712 of 2273 playoff matches were upsets. That's 31.3%
643 times Blue was the underdog and upset Red.
69 times Red was the underdog and upset Blue.

Whew.... I hope that's it. Are there any other quirks of the system that I have missed?

(Now, I have to get back to work!)


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