Questions about FIRST Future
 

So let's say FIRST get this coin thing passed. What are they going to do with the money ($3,150,000)? http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.firstinspires.org%2Fsites %2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2Fuploads%2Fchampionship%2Fchri sta-mcauliffe-commemorative-coin-act.pdf&h=IAQHOTApM

They already have a pretty hefty amount in the bank ($38,790,221 if I read the 990 right), what are they saving up for? http://www.guidestar.org/FinDocument...0c47c2e8-9.pdf

FIRST keeps talking about adding more teams, when are they going to focus on sustainment / attrition of current teams?

Dean wants to commemorate a teacher, but FIRST does not have any way to make FIRST robotics easier for teachers to integrate into the classroom or get teachers paid for their time. When will FIRST start to really support teachers?

Dean's homework is annoying me as I think about these questions. He just asked all of the kids to lobby on behalf of FIRST without giving them the vision or plan for the funds.

Dean just asked the Secretary of the Depart of Defense for 7,300 more teams without talking about how FIRST plans to put starting, running, funding and supporting a team within reach of more schools.

FIRST has added more cost with the district model without any talk of reducing the registration fees at the various levels and is now asking for more money.

FIRST is significantly increasing its event expenses / revenue with a second large semi national event to inspire more people (people already involved in FIRST) without any talk about their goals concerning inspiration and how they plan to bring more people not involved in FIRST into the tent.

What are their 5 / 10 year goals? What is their plan? Why should we do more to help FIRST than we are already doing? What is in it for FIRST's workforce (teachers, mentors and volunteers)? What is in it for FIRST's customers (students, schools, school districts, counties, states)?

Don't take my questions above as negative. I am willing to help FIRST get where it wants to go, but I want to know where it wants go and why before I start.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

The financial side of a district system is a bit more complicated. The finanical responsibility for events in a district area is the responsibility of the local organization. Registration fees still go directly to HQ but a portion of it ($1000 per team I believe, but not 100% sure) is regranted back to the local organization. Point being, it's not exactly clear whether districts increase or decrease HQ's expenses.

I agree with your questions though. There are many different views within the community about the direction all of FIRST should be headed, knowing what HQs view on the topic is as well is critical for the community to stand behind a unified effort.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

This is exactly how I have been feeling over the last couple of years. FIRST laid out a nice model for the future in 2011 with the district map, a model that a lot of people got behind. We thought that progress was being made, just slowly, over the last few years up until the two "championships" announcement.

FIRST is having issues with places at war over districts vs. regionals, they're staring down a huge failure rate for rookie teams, and they are not communicating their vision to anyone.

FIRST needs to tell us where they are going, and if they don't know where they're going then they need to bring in some people to help figure that out. If they're looking for help in forming a vision I happily volunteer.

This is a program I love and the greatest community I have ever been a part of. It is a community that can do great things and deserves the vision to help them do it.

FIRST has always been about bringing the floor up, not bringing the ceiling down, if the program is to thrive it needs to find a way, either as a community or as an institution, to keep teams alive and allow them to thrive.

I want to support FIRST, and we have already begun making plans for contacting multiple congressional districts, but giving us a road map will not only make that process easier, it will give teams a vision for the future, goals to work for, and a plan worth working to stick around for.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Wasn't this supposed to reduce the cost? What are you comparing? Are you looking at the cost to register + travel to 2 plus events compared against the cost to register and travel to a single event? Or, are you comparing the cost to register + travel to 2 events with the regional setting versus going to 2 events in the current system?

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

regional + world champs = $10,000
2 districts + district champs + world champs = $14,000 to $15,000

There are comments on both sides of this concerning travel and cost per play that I not going to way into. So I am just looking at registration fees.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

From our team's perspective, first 2 years as a regional team. $5000 regional and $5,000 Champs in year one to 2 regionals in year 2 for $5000 each. Total cost $10000 for 22 matches plus practice matches or $455 per match

Years 3 now a district, 2 districts for $5000, 3rd district for $1000, District Champs for $4000, Champs for $5000. Total matches played 70 or $214 per match.

Years 4 and 5 we attended only 3 districts and district champs for 60 matches for a cost of $166 per match.

While the overall cost to attend "all" the events is more, the cost per play is significantly lower and makes advancement more achievable for the average team. At bare minimum we get 2 full events with 12 plays each for $5000 even with no advancement. That's half the cost per play than 2 regionals or the same cost for 2x as many plays depending how you care to look at it.

We would not want to go back to a regional model even if we had the choice.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Just to be clear, 38 million seems like a hefty amount of money, but their total expenses were over 57 million dollars. It is not uncommon for non-profits to strive to have 6+ months worth of their operating budget in reserves. I would suspect that the balance of FIRSTs bank account fluctuates during the year. I suspect they spend a lot in the first two quarters, and take in a lot in the second two, this alone may explain the balance. The bigger key in my opinion in the 990 is that their total revenue was 174K, this is not an amount that would show as FIRST over charging teams.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

We are part of the IndianaFIRST district and two district events plus competing in the state finals for a cost of 9k in registration fees afforded us 45 matches this season. This is the best deal for the dough available to us. There once was talk of crossovers with Illinois and Michigan, but to my knowledge that remains just talk for the time being.

Expansion of the district model seems the only way to grow FRC in terms of finances. I take solace in knowing every year we will have two events regardless of the quality of our machine.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Ditto

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Remember that most events are paid for not by FIRST, but by sponsors. Your registration money doesn't go to running the event, it goes to FIRST. So if FIRST doesn't pay for the events, what do they pay for? Employees, but that still doesn't merit the amount of money they have in the bank.

In the economy of running robotics competitions your primary costs are going to be paying for the competition and paying for your organization employees, and that's about it. FIRST doesn't pay for the parts, or the mentors, or the volunteers. However if the main cost is paid for by sponsors, and the teams still pay you, that's just a constant stream of revenue incoming with the only outgoing cash going towards paying employees. And with the money FIRST makes from registration, I'm sure they have quite a bit left over after paying all of their employees. FIRST is among the most profitable non-profits out there.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

The amount of money FIRST has in the bank is extremely appropriate for a non-profit of its size. Additionally, by no definition are they one of the most profitable non-profits. Please try to use facts. We have FIRST's financials; you should take a look.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

FarmerJohn, back up your posts with evidence.

You've already found ONE of the many expenses FIRST has. Just one.

Overhead: Gotta pay the utility and facility maintenance bills at HQ.
Field Maintenance, Storage, and Transport (for HQ-owned fields, of which there are at LEAST a dozen): Per field, you need: a full set of field elements+spares, each and every year; any modifications to the guardrails needed, each and every year; repair of damaged pieces; storage for each field; transport for each field (1x semi per field); insurance on each field and its associated electronics. Now multiply that by a minimum of 12 (I believe the actual number is closer to 17). Maybe a new field gets built.
Key Volunteer Travel: Many of the key volunteers, particularly the ones that get trained in Manchester, get at least some of their travel paid for.
Production: FIRST pays a production company, at least for regionals.
Kit of Parts: Guess what, not everything in the KOP is a donation. Some is a discount, some has to be purchased at market cost. AND everything's gotta be sent out to teams.
CMP Costs: Don't think it's cheap to rent a convention center/football stadium for a weekend. Just a thought.
Team Grants: That's right, FIRST does give some teams grants.
FIRST Place: Guess what, this isn't quite overhead... It's in the HQ building, and is used as essentially an inspiration zone, but it needs some staff and maintenance too.
FTC, FLL, FLLJr.: Don't forget that these programs need funding too, for fields, venues, and staff to support them. That being said, their cost is lower due to smaller venues and smaller fields, but still needs to be accounted for.

I'm sure there's some I'm missing...

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

IT, HR, PR, website services, video production, volunteer shirts/hats, showcase dinner, supplier summit, etc.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

I recommend looking up liquidity, and why it is essential for any organization. It's one of the reasons that if you can pay off a mortgage instantly (somehow), you won't necessarily do so. What if, in doing so, your savings dry up to next to nothing? That means no rainy day fund in the event of a disaster. FIRST, for example, needs it in the event a major event sponsor pulls out with no warning, and they need to fund something that was otherwise taken care of.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

IIRC, FIRST owns 13 or 14 regional field perimeters and there are 25+ set of electronics and game-specific field elements (I quickly counted 12 district fields). Plus road cases. Plus their development sets at HQ and backups. It adds up.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

I'd like to see FRC become more sustainable (financially and on the time commitment side as well) and my personal opinion is that an easy way to accomplish that is to get rid of bag day and make the season open ended.

Also, after talking to colleagues in Europe and elsewhere (not the US), it seems that the FRC season does not align well with their educational calendars so making the season more open ended and maybe even year long might help. It has the added benefit of helping with mentor/volunteer/student burnout. It also gives teams time to compete and iterate more (which we know works because districts).

Just my thoughts though. Like Dean, I don't have all the answers, just ideas.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

This question is pushed down to the local level more as FRC transitions towards districts in some areas and FTC/FLL have started to hit capacity limits with team growth. The stated goal for FIRST is to have the progression of programs available in every school district, preferably in every school. The partner organizations are working on answering these questions locally. To simplify this by a ton it usually means growing individual programs by about 10-15%, which includes adding teams to replace those that are lost.

JJ you have been a great help this season and I know you are looking out for the best for the program and the students.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

I'd really appreciate it if FIRST could actually stop their formalities and actually be transparent about these topics concerning the future, goals, etc. They're becoming too much like an anonymous corporation for my taste, regardless of how awesome FIRST is in general. I like to think I'm not exaggerating when I say their PR needs a massive overhaul. Not branding, but media and public relations – something that actually has a tangible impact. The larger they grow, the more transparent and less strictly formal they need to be, if they wish to continue to feel like a family. Right now it feels like the teams are a family, but FIRST itself is distant relatives and the only thing that makes FIRST awesome are the people participating in it – not the people actually working for FIRST. This is not good, and I hope they strive to change this in the future and be less ambiguous about... well... everything.

I don't doubt other people have had different experiences than mine, but I also am fairly sure others feel similarly to me on this one.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

I actually worry that if FIRST could double in size it might actually cause more harm than good if they don't get more sustainable to the people doing it.

Picture what happens when you take a body of people that large and put them in a situation where they get dragged, and sometimes must neglect, certain things like taxes and personal expenses because of the fiat situation FIRST creates.

What good is twice the number of teams with less quality and quantity of mentors?
I think we put too many eggs in one basket and if FIRST still won't change; the way people engage with it needs to change.
I am just not sure that FIRST is yet important and visible enough (since it's not in all 50 States) to make society change around it.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

This a big issue, along with venue rent. In LA I think the combined cost approached half a million.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

I agree completely a lot more effort from the community and some organizing from FIRST is going to be needed for sustaining existing teams. Right now the rookie year support seems to drop away far too fast. We all talk a big game about helping other teams, but we need to make sure we extend this out beyond the pits. Making it easy to ask for help locally should be a big priority of better situated teams.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Regionals are expensive, don't get me wrong, but that number seems a little high. I'd hope that isn't the actual case.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Some subtleties to the 990 that you might not be aware of.

In Part X, look at column B, which is the end of year.

Line 2 is cash -- $23.7 million. This you can spend. If you find a great deal on goats for next year's game piece, this is what you use.

The other lines in the Assets section aren't spendable.

Line 3 is donations people have promised, but not received. Think "we signed up a new donor at Champs, and they said they'd pay on September 30"

Line 4 is money they're due, but hasn't yet been paid, and isn't a donation

Line 8 is stuff they have that they intend to sell

Line 9 is things they've bought that they haven't yet gotten -- e.g., deposits on venues

Line 10 is improvements to HQ and fields, among other fixed assets

The 990 is a snapshot as of June 30. FIRST needs to pay bills between then and the fall, when payments are due (e.g., first regional payment for FRC was due on November 23). Imagine if you got one paycheck a year, on December 31. You'd look pretty flush if someone looked at your December bank statement.

25-50% of next year's expenses in cash, at year-end, would not be unusual for an organization that runs an annual program.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Thanks for that.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

The district model in Indiana has been great for our team. The chance to compete at multiple events for a comparable price was a big win for Indiana. We are interested in having additional states get on board with the district model and then utilize the agreed upon point system to make inter-state play more engaging.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

tldr; FIRST needs to explain their goals in depth to more Board of Educations, so that they can plan and cooperate better.

So this is one of the biggest problems that this post brings up. It is extremely difficult for students, schools, and board of educations to back FIRST when they do not have any idea of where things are going.

I went to a party Saturday night that had every single high up person for the GABOE CTAE Department in attendance (it was a going away party for one of their people who happens to be my aunt). As the only one at the party who was still in school (for another couple of weeks at least ;)), a few of them asked about some of the career tech programs at my school to see how much of their work was actually reaching the school level. Through the conversation, I brought up FIRST and how amazing a program it was, and shockingly, it was only in the past couple of years that they were fully aware that FRC was a thing in our state. They asked me a lot of questions about the program, and all seemingly were about growth and how it could be shared with every high school in the state. Sadly I was not the best ambassador, for I could answer only parts of their questions, because I myself had no idea what the future held for FIRST.

The Board of Educations for most states can not fully back a program, if they do not know what they should be planning on. On top of that, FIRST is very expensive, and while there are lots of sponsors out there, the overall cost can be overwhelming. For example, there are 447 high schools in Georgia, and each one would operate with, let's say $30,000. That is still 13.4 million, which is very hard to get behind when a lot of GA schools are trying to keep their lights on.

Overall, FIRST needs to be more open about their future plans, so that students can be better ambassadors, and Board of Educations can be in a better place to assist them with their goals.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

I think this is the biggest issue for FIRST going forwards. Too often it feels like FIRST is only built for rookies and elite teams. Specially teams hours away from their home regional and/or teams that have existed for year yet only go to 1 regional and never move on.

Also I agree that FIRST (and RDs) should be far more transparent about what goes on behind the scenes and what their long range goals are.

Re: Questions about FIRST Future
 

Sorry the cost per play view is similar to saying I get a better deal on a restaurant meal if I chew more. But agree the district model does seem the better way for our team too. However am sure many teams in CHP district would say different. I think changes will come to ease the district burdens as well.

Back to thread topic. I too love this program and want to see it continue to grow. But worry that the growth may dilute the product in some way. Does FIRST have a team saturation number? Can their be too many?