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MI is the best?
Be from Michigan this is a little hard to say but, I think we need to step up our game.The idea that Michigan teams are the best might be bit arrogant. If I am correct we had zero teams in the finals this year, and only 2 on the Einstein field. Here are my thoughts on what is going on.
I believe in the past districts helped our teams by allowing us more matches and gain more experience but, this advantage is going away.Also based on the number of teams we have I think our districts are getting watered down. I can not tell you before the season we need to go to "X" district if we want to play with the best teams. And if I could I am not sure we could get in due to having home districts. which I totally understand is done to save teams travel expenses. My point is this ,If you what to be the best you need to play with the best.and learn from the best.Currently we play with the best at State champs, but by then its to late to make improvements. So, Here is my ideas. How about a "super district" event early in the season were the best teams based on the previous year get a invite to come and play. How you pick the teams I don't know but it needs to be based on performance. I think FIM has done a great job in building a great number of team , Now that we have them how do we get better? |
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The notion of having a "super-district" competition/invitational competition seems extremely elitist in nature. Not only does this mean that there would be separate levels for "good" and "bad" teams, but there would be no chance for less experienced teams to compete with the pros, which can help teams improve in ways no one would ever expect.
Districts are meant to allow teams to compete where they wish, and play with a relatively diverse field of teams. Leave the "best playing the best" for the district/world championships. |
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This seems to happen on its own pretty often. A number of top Michigan teams competed at Waterford in Week 1 when they could have just as easily switched to Southfield (nearby, Week 1, much weaker field).
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I had heard but never believed FIM valued elite play over inspiring people in their communoty, but I was sadly mistaken
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I think Michigan is still probably one of the strongest regions in FIRST. Yes we did not put quite as many teams onto Einstein, but the depth of the state continues to grow. By my count, 52 teams from Michigan were either captains or selected for the elimination rounds at the championship. This is the THIRD year in a row where there were more teams from Michigan playing in the elimination rounds at championship than there were playing at the Michigan State Championship.
I do think that increasing the number of districts has hurt some of the upper level teams in terms of competitiveness on the world level. I thought the biggest event ever season was always the Troy district because it would pit five or six of the best teams in the state against each other and you would see the first glimpses of the highest levels of a game being played. But the explosive growth in Districts has built a very robust second and third tier of teams that did not exist even three years ago. |
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I don't think you can use this year's championship to judge that.
It would be better to look at performance over several years, and probably not even including this year. |
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Michigan has the longest standing Einstein streak, going at least to 2002, and I'm not sure about anything before that due to incomplete data. Teams that don't even make playoffs at MSC make it to the playoffs at Champs, and in one case, Einstein (3538). Michigan might not have a 1678 type, where they make Einstein every year (469 from 2010-2014 would be the best comparison) but the depth of teams in Michigan is what makes FiM great.
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Is it more effective to have the top 10 teams at one district, or to have each of those teams at a different district? If you spread them out, younger and more inexperienced teams have the opportunity to interact with powerhouse teams and learn from them. While it might be more exciting to witness a bunch of them gathered at one competition, it's really not helping teams improve. Rising tides lift all boats. If we work together to support our low resource and newer teams, we will create a stronger FIRST community as a whole. |
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I 100% agree with you, maybe my post doesn't necessarily reflect that the way I wanted it to. Having few districts with more concentrated teams benefited those teams and helped them get to a level before MSC that was a significant advantage over the rest of the world. I think what has helped teams the most is how often newer teams are getting to run their own alliances in events where it never happened before. The biggest way to learn how to compete in eliminations is to actually get a chance to do it. We saw this pay off big time at MSC with all of the new teams that captained alliances in elims. |
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I can't say for sure that robot performance and STEM inspiration are tied together, either. They're related, but not the same. And it's going to be really hard to determine exactly what the relationship is. |
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In theory, this would have a bit of a waterfall effect. These teams would compete, get ideas, improve before their regionals, and spread these improvements to other teams at the regionals. I'm not sure where it'd hurt anyone. |
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1. Thinking that Michigan teams are the best is very arrogant (no "might be" to it). It would also be difficult to make that conclusion founded in any current logical argument other than relying on some historical data. I believe that most any of those metrics would likely have you pointing more towards CA for concentration of the Crem de la Crem (ironically you can think CA means Canada or California, and you would be able to make a good case for either). 2. Given the current need for points to attend MSC, having more than for "super" teams would have a high probability in one of them not even making it to MSC unless they win their second event (which can often be a coin toss). (check out 910s situation this year who BTW won Windsor and was a finalist in their division). 3rd Bold: In Michigan, we have put a big focus on bringing up the teams that are struggling. Some would refer to it as raising the floor. Overall, the teams did do very well over the weekend, with a lot of teams making elims, and even more advancing within their given division. 32 teams "made it to" Einstein. 3 of those were FiM teams or just shy of 10%. Michigan had 411 of 3124 FRC teams, or right at 13%. This would lead to the conclusion that FiM was "underrepresented", but anyone familiar with statistics would tell you that you are probably within the tolerance band. If you check out each division finals, you would see 7/48(ish) teams were FiM teams which is 14.5% (a little over-representation). I do think you have observed something that could be real, and may deserve some discussion/reflection by teams wanting to play at Einstein level. For instance, very few Michigan teams focused on lightning fast can grabbers last year, and this year, I would have thought at least a couple "2 ball autos" would have been at MSC. If you want to play at Einstein level, you may want to ask yourself where do you need to be. Lastly, Many of the best teams in the world just keep upping their game. Sometimes loosing your position in the lead is not about going slower, but about the field just going a bit faster. MSC was awesome to watch. There were tons of twists and turns and underdogs taking a stab at (and occasionally slaying) the favorite. Does Michigan need to step up its game... probably, but so does everyone everywhere. We are getting this to a level that makes it fun to watch by spectators. This fun to watch brings crowds, which is what truly changes the culture in the way we are trying to change. Which teams get confetti blown on their robot at the end of the season matters much less to me then coworkers, grandparents, and friends and family seeing and hearing about what we are doing and wanting to come be a part of it.* To put it another way, would you want the top 10 contenders for Einstein to take up an additional 50-100 mentors (5-10 for each team) to have a 50/50 shot at improving from a finalist to a Champion, or would you rather those 50-100 mentors work with about 200-500 kids that currently do not even know about FIRST programs. In reality, this is often the difference. I am not saying that those mentors build the robots, but those mentors often give that extra attention/support that the students need to change a really good robot into a truly great one. Moskowapplepi: You were not mistaken. While some may focus solely their teams performance, many focus on what inspires a community. Some of what inspires a community is really great play. Some is having a lot of local teams to go see. Some is about getting many others engaged. *Which team gets confetti in their robot does matter a lot to me, just not nearly as much as getting the community engaged. That was a factor why I left a great team in order to be an LRI at more events, and to help out other teams that were struggling. |
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As mentioned, what makes the FiM district so great is the depth. Obviously, there are many elite teams, but with a district the size and age of Michigan, it's hard not to find a successful or previously successful team.
Contrary to popular belief, most of the higher-performing teams are very classy on and off the field. A venture through the pits at MSC and several other FiM district events showed me that these teams that have had major successes through the years are usually the most generous and welcoming. Obviously experiences will differ, as you can catch any team under a high amount of stress at a competition. As for the elitism and performance versus other regions, most of us in Michigan are very proud of our FIRST origins, but deeply frown upon arrogance and elitism. And as for the performance this year in divisions and Einstein, I'm surprised that people are complaining as much as they are that no more than 3 teams from FiM made it to Einstein. Having played with 3538, 217, and 5050, and other teams that made it to divisional finals such as 494 and 910, it was awesome to see the team depth of those that made it to the div finals/Einstein. With 411+ teams compared to 2nd-most FIRST populous California with 158+, MI is guaranteed to statistically provide a higher quantity of experienced teams (and thus a deeper playing field) than any other district. EDIT: IKE nailed it. I definitely agree with the mentor distribution point. |
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Wanted to add to my post above, because the OP has a point. The top few teams in Michigan have done worse at the Championship in recent years versus how well the top few Michigan teams have done in the intermediate past. Additionally, Michigan districts are definitely weaker than they used to be, due to the huge growth in number of teams over the past few years. I'm not sure if those are related, but to me it makes logical sense that it could be a factor.
That said, I don't see any need for FiM to make any organizational changes to help up the game of the dozen or two Michigan teams playing at the highest level. This is the least of our problems. I think that if/when Michigan stops growing so fast, the competitiveness of Michigan districts will rebound nicely. We can help that along, not by segregating the great teams, but by allowing them to engage with and mentor struggling teams. |
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However, I agree that it would be nice to play with Michigan's best teams in a given season. My alternate proposal is an offseason event with an application process based on that years season, similar to IRI. Whether that be a new event in the summer, or WMRI in the fall, it would be a great alternative. |
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It also might be good to remember that because the season had a late start, The West Michigan district was populated with many more new teams than old, on account of week 4 taking place during Easter weekend. Off the top of my head, Strike Force and That One Team didn't make it. I'd see what happens next year, because in the past, and hopefully going foreward, The West Michigan district has been one of, if not the most competitive districts in the state
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I mean, they still weren't there...
In seriousness, something felt wrong about including them on that list, but I didn't know exactly what it was, like I said- it was off the top of my head. I'll change it |
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I think this thread may be focusing on the correct perspective. Whether a given state or District is competitive is not important to the overall mission of FIRST or FRC. That mission is to improve educational STEM opportunities with an exciting project-based learning model. The more teams, the better, even if it dilutes competitive balance. Michigan is incredibly successful in this model. I, and probably many others, wish that we could be in regions with such problems.
The key to Michigan resuming its rightful place is "coopertion." The stronger teams should work to make the newer teams stronger. Share resources and experience. Educate them more, work together. This is what FIRST is supposed to be about--get to it. |
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Many of these new teams have a veteran team giving them a hand either directly, or indirectly (or more directly depending on perspective) by having former students help mentor/start new teams. |
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Just because few Michigan teams made it to Einsteins this year doesn't mean that the rest of the state is lagging behind. There are a lot of Michigan teams that were very, very good this year, and they should not be discounted or called "below average" because they didn't qualify for Einsteins. 67, 27, 1023, 2771, 1718, 2137, 1918, 2767, and 33 all built amazing and top-tier machines, even though they didn't win their divisions. I'm certain I've forgotten some, as I'm not completely familiar with Michigan teams. Even though they may not have made an appearance on the big stage, these teams were still some of the best in the world. Don't worry, I think your state still has a strong presence in the FRC.
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Pretty much every team I know that went to the World Championship from Michigan made it to the elimination rounds at the World Championships. I do not feel Michigan is getting any worse, I feel Michigan is getting EVEN better. To prove my point, you can look at the variety of teams winning the Chairmans Award. There were three brand new teams winning the Chairmans Award this year and doing awesome things on their teams. Competitively, we continue to have the best State Championship Event in the World. I have seen teams that did not travel to the World Championships that could have won a regional in another area. Especially, after the extensive scouting our team did this year. I would argue that michigan is still the powerhouse it has always been and we are leading FIRST into a new era of competitive robotics. The growth in Michigan is tremendoue due to unwaivering support from all teams to start teams, mentor teams, volunteer and just plain be awesome. As for a Super District, I predict we will begin to continue to spread into possibly another teir of competition similar to the Sports Model with 64 team regionals in the future. This is way more feasible with the number of venues that could support this size regional. Then we would have a model similar to sports with District (32-40 teams) -> Regional (64 Team) -> States 102 Team. So, coming from someone in Michigan who is really excited for the growth and will continue to support teams in my area to get better, I think we have a bright future and I look forward to working with other states to adopt this model that has been working tremendously. |
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I might have a different perspective than most. Our area has a ton of teams but is a very small area. It is great that pretty much every school in my county has access to being on a team. (my team will accept anyone who doesn't have a school team, so we pick up the small private schools).
The problem is the grants that Michigan has given to get the teams started are starting to dry up going forward. We have ended up with a ton of teams, but are (once again at least in my area) starting to run out of sponsor organizations. In 2014 we had a budget of nearly $50,000 and were able to expand nicely, but this past year we were down to around $15,000. We are competing on locally with more and more teams for the same funds. If there is a drop off in Michigan's competitiveness then this might be part of it. Another part of it could be the sheer number of high numbered teams at each event. How many times do Michigan teams end up with an all rookie alliance? It can make for exciting times, but it can also skew results kind of dramatically in some cases. |
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Michigan seems to be in transition this year. MSC was very young as a lot of MSC veterans didn't make the cut. This is actually a good thing.
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I agree that we need to focus on how well we are fulfilling the mission of FIRST rather than how many teams are making it to Einstein. I have coached and mentored FLL,FTC, And FRC. The most fulfilling thing each year is to hear the kids explain to the judges how their robots work and how they solved problems. There are always those points in the season where you wonder if the students are listening and to hear them talk enthusiastically yo the judges is what keeps me coming back every year.
Of course, winning is fun but doing your best is also fulfilling. This year, we got to play with some of the great Michigan teams like 33, 217, and 469 in our districts, then went to Windsor and play with 2056 and other great Canadian teams that we don't often get a chance to play with. Then, we go to worlds and play with 330, 1114, 359, 133, 230 and many others in Carver division. We lost in the third match of the finals to the Beachbots alliance but held our heads high knowing we did our best we could for the alliance. All in all, I call that a pretty good year for everyone on our team. This year's game allowed so many teams to be able to play and contribute, no matter what their background or pedigree was. The district system allowed every Michigan team to play a lot of matches and see the fruit of their labor so. The only bad thing is we don't normally get to see the other great teams from outside the state except for summer events. |
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That is always the problem with fast growth. The upside is that we've also gotten a lot of people involved who want to stay involved. That will help drive some of these teams to learn to do what needs to be done to make themselves solvent. Our events have been significantly watered down because of the large influx of newer member teams. In the past you were guaranteed to have at least two powerhouses at each event. Now we're seeing many events with teams who are making their own names. With regards to the overall competitiveness of Michigan, I wouldn't say our competitiveness has really dropped. I think the competition has stepped it up in other places. Teams like Poofs, Citrus, Simbotics, OP, Wranglers, Robonauts and others are making robots now that are physically impossible for many other teams to make. The expertise in terms of manufacturing and coding simply isn't there. They are sharing their abilities with their local teams and bringing up their competitors. We also had international competitors on Einstein. I expect to see those numbers increase quickly as well. |
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I agree that we need to focus on how well we are fulfilling the mission of FIRST rather than how many teams are making it to Einstein. I have coached and mentored FLL,FTC, And FRC. The most fulfilling thing each year is to hear the kids explain to the judges how their robots work and how they solved problems. There are always those points in the season where you wonder if the students are listening and to hear them talk enthusiastically yo the judges is what keeps me coming back every year.
Of course, winning is fun but doing your best is also fulfilling. This year, we got to play with some of the great Michigan teams like 33, 217, and 469 in our districts, then went to Windsor and play with 2056 and other great Canadian teams that we don't often get a chance to play with. Then, we go to worlds and play with 330, 1114, 359, 133, 230 and many others in Carver division. We lost in the third match of the finals to the Beachbots alliance but held our heads high knowing we did our best we could for the alliance. All in all, I call that a pretty good year for everyone on our team. This year's game allowed so many teams to be able to play and contribute, no matter what their background or pedigree was. The district system allowed every Michigan team to play a lot of matches and see the fruit of their labor so. The only bad thing is we don't normally get to see the other great teams from outside the state except for summer events. |
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In Indiana, moving to districts has been a great experience for building our First Community. Other districts, like Michigan have inspired us, in no small part as a competitive measuring stick :). We were excited to have 7 Indiana teams compete on Saturday; 4 of them as alliance captains. 1501 represented Indiana well on Einstein. Michigan's strong FRC community has helped inspired everyone else and should be proud of that accomplishment.
We have loved getting to know some of the MI teams who have come down to compete with us in our districts and IRI. They always bring the highest level of competition. Thanks Michigan! |
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We may not spawn a 2056, that comes out of the shoot winning and builds a legacy like they did, but we are building very competitive programs. When you look back on Michigan History, I think Michigan was under represented, then in 2013 (?) the number of teams sent from Michigan was based on total population, and we sent more teams. Also, just because you send more teams, does not mean you send more teams that have the quantity of programs that can compete with 118, 148, 254, 1114, 2056... and others. That level of competition requires much, much, more than a governor paying your entrance fee. |
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