New Off-season Defenses
 

I have been informed that the portcullis will not be sent to off-season events due to safety concerns. I personally have no problem with this ruling and have put in an inquiry to see if the base can still be sent along.

We were already considering replacing the drawbridge and the sallyport with new defenses and now plan on coming up with something for the portcullis base also.

What ideas does the community have that could be used as an alternate defense (we already have a couple of ideas in mind). Keep in mind that you want to minimize the penalty to specific design choices.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

A group of Minnesota volunteers have discussed this a few times, and we came up with a few good alternatives (by some definition of "good").

My favorite practical option is propping up the cheval de friese as the CDF's "alternative", making a cliff defense. With the CDF, the challenge is getting on. With the cliff, the challenge is getting off. It's easy to implement, and not too significantly different from any existing defenses. Unfortunately it is significantly more directional than the existing defenses- going from the courtyard back to the neutral zone would be pretty hard.

Some less practical options (in descending order from most practical to least practical):

• A "wall" you have to break through twice to defeat, such as two totes stacked on top of eachother
• "Boiling pitch," which is just a bean bag chair that gets dropped on your robot after going through the defense
• A cage with a bunny in it. Whether the bunny is real or fake is up to the planning committee.
• A flat defense with nothing on it, but the head ref has a squirt gun and gives your robot a squirt every time you cross it
• A second low bar, but connected to some propane to create an open flame instead of having flaps

Minnesota teams might want to be careful in the off season ;)

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A set of boulders that are attached to the flat base that you have to drive over.

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Was this from HQ, Andymark, or someone else? I'm just wondering what off-seasons won't have the portcullis.

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I was thinking a rolling-log type of defense. Should be quite entertaining to watch robots try to go over some round-ish material(s) that can spin in place but not roll off the platforms.

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I've considered replacing several defenses with ones that don't block visibility, but the challenge is to design a new defense that the majority of robots can go over without needing new mechanisms or changing their drivetrain. If we can think of new defenses that fit that bill, it would be helpful to share to the community.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

My mom's cousin heard from her friend who heard from her brother who heard from his barber who heard from his son that his teacher told him that his father's brother's sister's former roommate heard from Frank himself.

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An AM14U2 turned with its wheels perpendicular to the dividers on a low traction surface.

Additionally, pushing this field element on to the batter counts as a challenge.

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^This. The visibility blocking adds nothing positive to the game from a spectator or driver standpoint. This is why we're planning on scrapping the drawbridge and the sallyport.

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...

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Though for the record, I've seen a few comments on various threads about replacing the "wooden" element with just clear plastic. While not a fan of the defenses (Scoring the crossings as a Ref was the worst.) because of the reduced visibility, I do think that they should stay for off season events because it rewards teams like 4678 on their incredibly smooth operation of those defenses.

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Conveyor roller bridge of despair. PVC pipe around steel may work? Rough length the average wheel base at the event - probably something like 24-28". Peak height is close to the rock wall's height.

A rock wall made out of a roll of carpet that is allowed to deform over the course of a competition.

A quarter-height drawbridge with less spring force - most teams could probably add something to their CDF manipulators to solo this from the neutral zone.

2 punching bags or a few steel vertical pipes attached to a "high bar"

Rough terrain with 1" more variation in the height.

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Could do astroturf, gravel (please don't use sand), or a turn table.

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As much as we'd love to cart Tim around to every off-season event, I think we'll have to pass. It was hard enough getting him to two event in two pieces. :yikes:

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

From Frank

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

This would be an easy design. 4" dia steel pipe set center of defense plate, with 1"-4" underneath (make it adjustable (1" increments) so the head ref pulls a number out of a hat for each time it's used)(or make it perm to the field like the low bar and set the height to pneumatics so the FTC can change randomly during a match). The end of the pipe would have end caps with bearing in them for it to rotate on (make it more fun, have the bearings off center so it has a cam effect). :eek:

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Or a series of smaller pipes, same general idea. Oughtta be quite "entertaining" (and maybe claim a few robots on the way...)

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In the midst of craziness and rambling, here's an actual good idea

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I think this would be a difficult change for FMS. Unless you just didn't get any points at all for crossing this defense in auto or teleop.

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Wouldn't be all that hard, just gotta train the refs that if that defense was in play, it doesn't get entered as a crossing.

Of course, offseason events like to make up their own rules...

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MAR will also not be providing the portcullis to off-season events. If anyone (or group) wants to design and build a replacement defense, we have a few bases available.

PM or email me.

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Why don't we do that? It will still allow robots designed solely for crossing defenses would still be able to cross, and it would make it easier for robots designed to shoot to do that. If anything, it think it would make the game more exciting, more high scoring shots.

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I wouldn't put nothing in the base- the holes in the platform for the defenses' wheels would be problematic for robot wheels.

A flat defense that you put in the slot with the mentioned rule change would certainly be interesting.

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"Why would they select to put nothing in the defense position? What is the other alliance playing at?? :confused:"

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Somebody pulls that, we'll have too big of an advantage. Fully damaged drawbridge/sally port in auto or something like that. Rewards very few of the teams for putting in a lot of hard work, penalizes the rest of 'em.

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You mean that they cross it like they would cross a drawbridge, right?

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That's answers my question. I just wanted to know if the defense being crossed like a drawbridge or a sally port (I didn't realize initially that the sally port was included) caused the special points/tower increase/etc. to occur. Thanks.

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How about a simple ramp to jump over?

EDIT: Was already mentioned by Kevin!

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

If anyone from Florida(or any other area) is reading this and won't be making a fun unique defense to replace the Portcullis please don't just make it Cheval always as that leaves teams with only 2 defenses to pick for 3/4 of their matches (Lowbar, Cheval, Audience, and then what ever two are left) instead allow them to pick the Cheval or the other member of Category B or D they did not pick. It would make it so Field reset and defense coordinator has more work (Basically the defense coordinator selects the portcullis then has to write B or D under it to signal which other defense goes there, and field reset has to remember which two defenses belong in B and D) but at least teams will still have control of 3/5 of the defenses like we were told in the rules.

Now things that i think would be interesting for teams to decide to do:

• The Cliff (cheval stuck in the down.)
• A Breakaway Style (in shape not size) barrier: link for the young people
• A Chute Door
• Weighted High Bar (Create a tall low bar but attach pipes to the bottoms of the flaps like what were on the original low bar)

basically I want to keep the integrity of the portcullis in tact, since many tall bots were able to go through it in both teleop and auto and I don't want to further penalize them for their design decision. (Turning a 1/9 defenses impossible to cross to a 2/9 is not fair to them)

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How about a stack of six totes with a can and a noodle on top sitting on a defense platform???

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Oh man, 2003 all over again.

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What about just continuing the slope of the platform to create what would have a triangular cross section. Satisfies the Breakaway Brigade who want a giant hump/ramp, and also satisfies the Cliff Contingent who wants a ramp that robots can Dukes of Hazard over with incredible air, but with the added effect that you can cross it both ways. It should be dead simple to built too. FOr added fun, add rollers onto the ramp sides embedded into the ramp such that the only way to cross is to go really fast and fly so high you crash into the castle before you hit the ground.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

Rule change: Robots must now score themselves into the high goals at the end of a match in order to achieve a capture.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

1. Pit similar to the moat but maybe a bit deeper filled with corn, water, boiling tar, red or blue alliance flavored dessert related substance, mangoes, or mango flavored desert related substance
2. Pool noodles; could be arranged in a lot of creative ways or another spongy material that robots would sink into. Very high pile carpet might also work.
3. Bridge of Death
4. Spike Trap
5. Lunacy Regolith or another slippery surface; put it on a ramp for more fun
6. A spring-loaded or pneumatic ejector platform that launches robots in a random direction
7. Actual chili fries, or fries to be shoveled(Though I'm sure all robots like their fries unsalted, so be sure to leave out the salt)
8. A RUNNING bench grinder
9. Something like the rough terrain, but with the bumps on springs so they move up and down
10. A trapdoor that robots fall through

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Portcullis suddenly discovered to have ouchies.

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A pit of grinded corn cob husks.

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I was thinking pink shag carpet and beaded curtains.

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I call this one the mega moat:

Same as the moat, but the bumps are the size of the rock wall instead :yikes:

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1992!

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I'm confused. Something that was used all season is now all of a sudden dangerous? I don't get it. What's the issue with it?

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I heard that someone had 2 of their fingers broken while setting it up.

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Suggestion: they have to score a minibot.

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We are considering having all teams vote prior to the event, and have static defenses (not changing throughout event). Lots easier on volunteers.

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See http://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/43664

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Just had this idea....some sort of swinging bridge...similar to a rope bridge.
basically a suspended platform the size of a defense bottom about a inch or so high off the defense base. each corner would have a rope (or chain) attached to a post holding the this up. As you drive across it could swing back and forth. If a robot sat on it then took off the base would tend to swing out from under the robot. Driving onto it too fast would make it difficult to drive across.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

Any newly created defense is not fair to teams that designed around the very specific defense arrangements on the field. Sure, it's "not fair" that other defenses will be removed too, but removing a game element is a lot less of a penalty than adding one that not everyone can cross.

Honestly, they should just make off season defenses static. CDF, Rock Wall, Ramparts, Moat. CDF in 2 to block the human player, yet Moat in 5 and Rock Wall in 3 to allow skilled HPs something to try. Terrain defenses in 3 and 4 for auton. Skipping Sally port and Drawbridge for visibility reasons, and skipping Rough Terrain because it's easy and we're out of room. This will save tons of time and congestion for field reset, reduce load on volunteers, increase defense robustness (you can bolt down defenses instead of pinning them) and generally make things smoother. I will miss the strategic depth of defense selection (and trust me, there was some) but I think ultimately it's worth it for a better event without disadvantaging certain teams.

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-A normal defense base... Covered in rollers
-A running treadmill (running towards the neutral zone)
-The black knight
-Car tires
-A pit full of mutton legs

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

Stickers were put on at World Champs.

Granted the Portcullis is probably one of the more hazardous game elements in recent years, but the stickers were a little -- bizarre. No one is supposed to be on it anyway. I'm surprised there weren't more stickers on it saying "Danger - Tipping Hazard".

Having static defenses would be kind of dull. Most of them weren't a problem moving in and out of the bases, except like the Rock Wall or Ramparts which got banged out of position by the robots and the pins wouldn't come out. My crew at UMass Dartmouth were running ahead 30 minutes. The reset crew at the NE Champs were dancing even after 3 days of resetting.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

I don't know that creating new defenses is any more or less fair than choosing a set of defense to use permanently. We're specifically choosing defenses that should be crossable by all drive trains.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

You can make something that is easy, fun, and/or weird. For instance, I don't think putting a short stack of gray totes or an Aerial Assist ball sitting on a ring on the portcullis base for teams to bulldoze through is particularly difficult to execute in construction or requires any significant change to an existing Stronghold robot, but could make play more interesting/wacky for an offseason.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

You would think that the CDF would block the human player, however, our human player actually was able to bowl over it, without any robot assistance. No matter how you try to stop the human players, they will always find ways around it.

That said, I think that it is already hard enough to to bowl it over the rock wall, ramparts, or moat, so you don't need to make it even harder. It would decrease the value of the human player, and make all but the best human players much less valuable. Then again, after much practice, it might become more common for HPs to bowl it over spots 3,4, and 5. Also, your idea would be great for field reset times.

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I think static defenses at a lot of smaller off-seasons makes a ton of sense. Get more matches into one day by lowering field reset times and require less volunteers.

However I still want to see changing defenses at IRI, Chezy Champs, and other similarly competitive and/or long off-seasons.

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Make the new defense another robot. Alternately, two smaller robots.

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Not the cliffs of Insanity!!!

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Potentially, yes this could disadvantage teams, but by adding a defense that could be pretty easily traversed by most drivetrains in FRC this year, I would wager that for the most part it would be a non-issue. Plus, it's the offseason, which is the perfect time to try out fun stuff like this without hurting anyone's chances at winning a blue banner. I think it'd be really fun to see something like what a lot of people have proposed. The defenses could still be static if that makes things easier on field crews, but the added twist might be pretty cool.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

A MOAT WITH ACTUAL WATER.

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Sometimes, teams are too good at it.

Now, I'm not saying that its not hard. In fact, its incredibly hard. However, I feel like people would want to minimize the influence of human players, as this is a robotics competition, not a human player competition.

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A spike pit. But the spikes are made of rubber so the won't actually puncture a robots wheels but it acts sort of like a second rough terrain by having different heights for the spikes.

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The rolling log is good, but absolutely NO on the live bunny? (Huh???) It would be absolutely TERRIFIED of all the robots and noise.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

You must ask these questions 3!

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Bonus points if the defense is damaged and the game pieces end up back in their starting location (or close enough to it) at the end of the match!

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I suppose coming up with a new defense to replace the Portcullis makes sense if FIRST will not be sending it with the field. Personally I think just always having the CDF out would be fine, but I could convince myself that having a new one would be good.

I do not however understand any logic behind trying to replace the Sallyport, Drawbridge, or any other defense.

For one this devalues any robots who actually designed around these challenges. It also removes a challenge that teams may feel like adding something small to their robot to in the offseason to try.

If you want to add a new defense, I'm not sure in what way that new defense would be effective. There would be two ways to approach it: either something that almost all robots would be able to accomplish with their current designs, or something challenging that teams would have to engineer their robots further to accomplish. Either option is poor; if you make something that almost everyone can accomplish with their current robot, then why even bother creating it or replacing any of the current defenses in the first place. If you make a challenging one, you are forcing teams to build something new to damage it, which most offseason events tend to want to avoid. Also, if you're replacing the drawbridge or sallyport, those are already 2 defenses that most teams were never able to do this season, so replacing them with something challenging that requires a new mechanism is pointless when the team could deisgn a new mechanism for those defenses they chose not to do during the regular season.

Sorry this post got away from me a bit and I rambled, I'm still recovering from my VEX/FIRST Champs illness. Bottom line, I'd say just leave the defenses alone (physically). Now if you wanted to change the breach requirement to needing to damage all 5, then I might be interested...

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I mean we can just make teams use the team versions since its way more safe.

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A half-pipe could prove interesting to mount and traverse.

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Loop-the-loop. Takes up 2 defense slots.

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This is happening.

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Dunno why, 836 is the only robot fast enough to do it...

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Pull up bar for all those fast hangers out there........
HI mom!!

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We might be fast enough ;)

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Maybe make something in between the two, so some robots can already cross it easily, while others would only need small changes. There could be different defenses depending on what teams competing at each offseason event are capable of.

Yes, team versions of the portcullis would be much safer(most likely), but durability would be an issue. I've seen wooden ones break very quickly with little robot use.

Agreed. That's part of what the offseason is for IMO; trying things you didn't get to try during the regular season.

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That was the Newton Field Supervisor in week five. He had to have a surgical procedure done to fix it.

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Forgive me if this has already been suggested but the replacement could be whatever defense is not being used from the current audience selected category. That way it is a defense that already exists and everyone can plan for. Downside is I can't really see anyone not choosing the CDF unless the sallyport or drawbridge was the other option.

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Throwback to 2008!

Seriously, I've seen so many throwbacks to previous years (1992, 2003/2015, 2008, 2010, 2014 and probably more) in this thread.

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Maybe we can just borrow this thing and use it as a fire breathing dragon.

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I really like the "spinning log" idea. What if it was just a bunch of wheels on an axle?

Another idea is to have a triangular prism so that it is slightly harder to traverse than the rock wall.

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Yes, but the flame is Fluorescent Green rather than Green...

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That wasn't the only casualty, one of 1678's alumni/mentors also broke two of her fingers setting it up at the Sacramento regional.

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Also harder to open. (And, we only broke both sets of drop panels on both days at the Scrimmage...)

And the team versions don't play well with the full field.



What I would suggest would be something that can work with the same general type of motion as the defense that is being replaced. So, replace Portcullis with a drop-door of some form, rigged to open into the Neutral Zone... Maybe.

Re: New Off-season Defenses
 

This is exactly what I was thinking as I skimmed thought some of the more plausible ideas.
Ideally, the portcullis would simply be replaced with a safer version of itself as to not disadvantage teams that specially built mechanisms for crossing that particular defense.
Don't get me wrong, some of these new ideas are really cool, but they may upset teams that are suddenly unable to cross a one less defense than they could during regular competition.
Many portcullis and cheval de frise manipulators are two articulated wedges that simply push up the gate as the robot crosses.

While I recognize that this thread was not limited to replacements for the portcullis, it would likely create the most problems of any of the defenses if it was removed. (seeing that the drawbridge was almost never played in the higher level of competition, and the sally port can easily be breached using the spin maneuver.)

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Many drivers would like to see the Drawbridge and Sally Port gone (or changed) because they are large and impossible to see through.

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This. In my opinion as a spectator the decreased visibility to drivers added no value to the game.

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The lower bar ;)

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https://giphy.com/gifs/star-lego-logs-9TuMAqF9MUkq4

Timing is everything!

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I emailed Mark Lawrence yesterday a suggestion that the new defense be a 12 foot length of heavy chain encased in a vinyl tube suspended across the platform with the center of the loop 5 inches above the bottom platform.

It provides a challenge that is similar to the portcullis in that you have to lift the chain up and over the robot, but is easier in that it swings out of the way and harder in that the chain can catch on the robot as it passes under.

The vinyl/plastic cover is of course to prevent the chain from completing a circuit as it drags over your robot.

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I like the idea of a rolling log in the middle. Challenging, but not too.

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The difficult thing here is - tall robots could go under the portcullis, but how can tall robots go under this?

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In exactly the same way. A 12 foot loop of chain can be raised well above 4' 6", it isn't as simple, but should still be quite possible.

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Many tall (and short) robots relied on the motion of the portcullis to get through it. One push (or ramming into it a few times, in some cases) would send it flying high, and they could quickly get through it before it came crashing down.

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The Portcullis is gone. I offered up a manipulation defense that it functionally similar to the portcullis. What do you suggest? What are you willing to build in your garage to bring to off season events?

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Let's tone it back a little.

While I do like your chain idea and think it would have made an interesting defense, the reason people are a little skeptical is because while similar, the chain would act vstly different than the Port. Most Port manipulators were also built with the bottom of the "door" being a solid bar. Ideally, any replacement defenses are actuated similarly to existing defenses so as to not require a completely new mechanism be built in the off season.

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4-bar linkage portcullis? Seems like you could counterbalance it to where it spring assists up and then gently glides back down :rolleyes:

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I would argue that your suggested defense is not functionally the same as the portcullis, because of the reason I stated in my post. Some robots might be able to use the exact same mechanism on your defense, or a very similar one, but not all of them.

I'm not saying the chain is a bad idea. I actually think that, if we are considering all ideas for portcullis replacements (similar or not), it would be a good challenge. I'm just saying that it is not functionally the exact same, and if we are looking for an exact (but safer) replacement that would not require any existing portcullis-capable robots to change their design, that's not it.

Honestly, I don't have a suggestion right now. I'm glad that nobody else will end up being hurt by a portcullis, and for that reason I will be accepting of whatever replaces it.

I think that some of the ideas presented in this thread are good (I particularly like the "rolling log" ones). If I had a garage and the equipment to do so, I would very gladly take the time to build any one of these ideas.

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To me, this sounds like the original low bar, just...higher. If so, it could be functionally similar to both the low bar and the portcullis, allowing robots to pass through just by pushing the tube, like the tubes on the old low bar. Maybe then even bots too tall for the low bar could get through this.

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What about putting the flat base for the portcullis in the slot and allow teams to cross whenever they like. The difference being that the crossings will not count till the last 20 seconds. So you can make the deicsision on doing crossings or climbing.

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Is it bad I see the visibility issue as a feature?

I like a number of items which have been brought up, let me through in a wild card.

Allow teams to bring in their own defenses of whatever design they choose (within a few rules)
1) Can't fod the field
2) Must be possible to cross
3) If their robot cannot cross, the other alliance has higher priority for choosing to use it against them.

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I personally hated the visibility issues (im the driver) since we have a low bot. But then again, I would not want them gone, because it was just another challenge of the game. It's like tall bots saying they don't like the low bar, so it should be gone.

Plus I also like the visibility constrains, because it separates the good drivers from the not so good. For example (not bragging here), after the first few matches at our first regional, i was getting used to the field and our bot. So even when I didn't have direct line of sight, our performance wouldn't degrade (unless there was defense being played), because I could still estimate exactly where the bot was based off of instinct, even making knocking out the sally port easy.

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How about using a Portcullis-like setup...

But instead of springs, use a counterweight system, to keep the door at roughly 5 lbf up-force? (Maybe use a return spring to start it on the downward motion, though.)