Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I'm disappointed with all the posts that are roughly of the following form:

"I'm not complaining about the refs, I know they are volunteers, and the job is hard and they miss some things, but in this this match, the ref blew the call and as a result, we lost the match by less than the 5 point foul that should/should not have been called. It ended our season, caused pain and misery, blah, blah, blah, video replay, better ref training, refs were awful, etc. etc. "

Consider a different style of post, one that I've never seen before:

"We were the #1 alliance and picked the team 9999 as our first pick. But in SF2-3 which was a very close match they made a very poor decision to go for one last high shot from the middle of the courtyard (and missed) and then didn't get on the batter in time and as a result we lost. Team 9999 has been around a long time. The mentors and drive coach should have been more aware of the correct strategic move in that case and the driver should have known what to do. As a result we lost the match and were eliminated, blah, blah, better mentors, blah blah."

In most cases, folks that feel like a ref's choice caused their team's loss are very willing to post the video link, refer to the exact time of the occurrence, and provide their detailed analysis of why the ref 'messed up.' You wouldn't do this to your own team mate if they messed up, you wouldn't do it to an alliance member or team. You'd not post the video link if the ref clearly messed up but did so in your favor. You only post ref issues when they directly negatively affected YOUR team.

If you feel a ref has made a bad call, go to the question box (which I'm sure most have done in these cases) and if you need someone to commiserate with and validate your take on what happened, feel free to do that with your team mates in a a very limited way, but don't publicize that you think a ref messed up on CD where hundreds or thousands will see it, including the ref or other refs or potential future refs.

Ref's don't want to see their calls analyzed in a public forum, if they did, the refs would be posting videos here and saying "In this match at 1:30, did I make the right call?"

If you think the current referee crew is doing a less than adequate job, contact the volunteer coordinator (preferably after the event -- they are busy!) and politely state your case. If they get enough complaints AND have more ref volunteers than they need, they'll likely go with the ones that don't have complaints.

You don't publicly call out your own team mates for their mistakes on CD, and in a real sense, we all (including the refs) are on the same FIRST organization team whose purpose is to inspire and change the culture outside
of FIRST.

We all (I hope) cheer for the refs when they get recognized on the field during opening ceremonies, but I know this community is very capable of expressing much more substantive appreciation to them in other more meaningful ways. I'll start:

A big thanks to all the FRC Referees that give so generously of their time to help provide a massively fun way to spend two or three days for so many students and adults.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

???
So, someone who volunteers to ref a world championship event attended by hundreds of teams from around the world, all paying thousands of dollars to register (IE excluded), plus thousands of dollars to travel to the event, shouldn't expect public discussion of their mistake?

I agree that the volunteers are doing an amazing job 99% of the time. A higher percent than me! But when you put yourself in a position of power, you have to expect some dissent and criticism.

There were 8 divisions with about 125 matches each, plus elimination rounds and then Einsteins. And only a handful of questionable calls that may have swayed alliance selection. All in all, a fantastic feat. And one worthy of congratulations.

But immune from gripes? Never gonna happen.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I don't think any of these types of posts are in any way meant to play down the immense contributions of time and energy that volunteer refs give to FIRST. But being grateful for all the refs do and having an open discussion about the validity of calls are not mutually exclusive. Saying that all refs should be immune from public criticism is absurd.

Most posts of this nature that I've seen have been predominantly constructive. Yes, people can get heated and angry if a bad call (something completely beyond their control) negatively impacted their team. But most posts also contain suggestions for FIRST in future years, such as to clarify ambiguous terms in the manual. Simply saying "Oh well, bad calls happen" and ignoring the issue doesn't fix anything and isn't constructive. By having these open conversations and providing suggestions to mitigate problems in future years, we help make future games more enjoyable for everyone involved.

If refs don't want their calls analyzed publicly, perhaps they shouldn't be making said calls in front of thousands of people.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

That last statement is out of line. But it's true. That's why I didn't volunteer to ref at CMP, on top of having reffed 4 events already.

Let me put it this way: The only reason I reffed 4 events was because there weren't enough refs, period. And I rather suspect that half of the reason there weren't enough refs is because if they make a call (or no-call) that is the slightest bit controversial, 47 CDers who haven't reffed FRC jump all over it and complain about something that was perfectly clear from the stands (but, if you REALLY think about it, was unclear, or perfectly clear the other way from the refs' point of view). [/hyperbole]

And, the GDC didn't help--no offense to any GDC folks reading this, but if you don't consider referee sightlines when you're designing field elements, you need to. There really isn't an excuse for the sally port opening to block the outerworks refs' view of sally port crossings that they're supposed to be scoring!

A better way to discuss calls is:
Here's the video, here's what the refs called, why would they call that? 7 times out of 10, it's something that you didn't notice. 2 times out of 10, they're using judgement where a rule allows them to. And the remaining time, they might have actually made a mistake (not seeing, wrong rule, something like that). That's something that refs (and teams) can discuss and learn from.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I'll agree with you on a couple of things-- many accusations against referees are needlessly personal and nonconstructive, and refs, like all the other volunteers that make our competitions possible, deserve our respect.

However, I don't think that this means issues with refereeing should stay between teams and the volunteer coordinator or internal to teams. Many issues that appear to be the fault of referees really trace their roots to combining the jobs of scoring and refereeing into one job when it really, for the sake of everyone involved, should be two. FIRST has never seemed to recognize this except for in years where it was impossible/impractical to do automated scoring (2015), so I think people are more that within their rights to continue to point out issues with reffing and suggest solutions to the issues of inconsistent or incorrect reffing.

And yeah, part of this is stemming from the fact that I've been on both sides of wrong calls. Pointing them out and learning from them can be constructive even if it isn't particularly so in most cases.

So yes, thank you to all the refs and other volunteers in stressful roles. I've filled a much larger variety of roles in FTC than in FRC (where I've only been field reset), but one of those has included being a referee, and I think it's completely illogical for me (in such a public-facing role) to expect my decisions to be out of the public light.

When I volunteer, I am putting myself in a position to be responsible for helping teams have a good, fair experience at the tournament. When I screw up, I appreciate someone letting me know so I can correct my behavior in the future. Many screw-ups are caught on the spot, but some slip through and only come to light online.

At the end of the day, I'm volunteering to improves teams' experiences at their regionals. Yeah, some people are a little rough when they don't feel you contributed to that, but that doesn't mean you should ignore them. As my leadership instructor told me: "Ya gotta listen for the song beneath the word."

I haven't refereed in FRC (I have in FTC, but I feel like that's a bit of a different ball game), but none of the complaining on CD dissuades me from putting on the stripes. I fully anticipate that one day, probably sooner rather than later, I'll find myself a zebra and will probably blow a call. When that happens, I full expect my fellow volunteers will let me know and I'll do my best to avoid making the same mistake twice. After that point, well, Chief Delphi is going to be Chief Delphi.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Hi, I'm a ref. I reffed at two events on opposite coasts this year in back to back weeks.

Yes, we do a hard job.
Yes, we sometimes get calls wrong.
Yes, I want to hear when I've gotten something wrong, because I would like to be able to explain what I saw vs what you saw.
Yes, the GDC could 'fix' a lot of these problems by giving scoring aspects back to non-ref volunteers.
Yes, most posts I've seen on CD have been "This call happened to us, we think it was wrong, what do you think?".
Here is a quote from something someone else wrote that I didn't feel was constructive or helpful in one of those threads:
No, I don't think that ref calls shouldn't be talked about on CD.

Here's something else.
As a ref, I defer to how my head ref interprets the rules and calls them. In my experience reffing under different head refs, some things are slightly different, more or less lenient, etc and so on. This isn't usually that big of an issue for regionals/districts, but when you mix all those refs from all over at CMP and then have rules that are ambiguous or can be read different ways after 7 weeks, then some calls will appear bad to some and fine to others.

On another note -- I love wearing the zebra stripes because I can have a bit of fun seeing students nervous as to why I'm in their pit, then exhale relief when I just want a picture of their robot :)
However, this season I was thanked for being a volunteer (without any prompting) exactly once, and it happened to be a Thursday morning in my 'street clothes'. I'm not saying treat your volunteers like they walk on water, but that one girl saying "Thank you for volunteering!!" as I walked away honestly made my weekend even more enjoyable.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Being a volunteer isn't an excuse to be bad at your job.

When a ref gets a call wrong, why should all the repercussion be placed on teams? Their season could be over, and they won't hear so much as a "oh sorry, I made a mistake" in response. The goal is inspiration and volunteers are obviously working towards that but FRC is a competition. The inspiration happens because it is a competition. When you mess up on the competitive aspects, you mess up the inspiration.

A couple of choice quotes from the past six years:

"I did get the call wrong, but I didn't want to waste time replaying the match."

"Technically [the team that drove into your frame perimeter] should have gotten a red card, and they did break parts of your robot, but I don't think it would have mattered."

And totally rude behavior towards anyone in the question box.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Well said my man. Very well done.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

It was funny. Yesterday I saw a post from a member of 16. He said he never knew how needed video replay was until his team had a bad call at their expensive.

I have volunteered in many positions and will be reffing in the off-season. And guess what I am the same person who will say this year's reffing was terrible. Was it all the refs fault? No. Some of it was the game. But, when you go to the question match after wrongly losing your last elimination match of the season and the ref says to you that she thinks they were wrong but they have a schedule to keep... I think you will have a different reaction.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I hear from many volunteers who were refs say they no longer want to ref because of what is said about them. Keep it up guys in no time flat you'll drive them all out then you'll really have something to cry about.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I agree, but sometimes that is First's only option.

I was chatting with Refs at Champs, and they said they could have used more Refs. One Head Ref complained about a Ref not being up to the task.

IMHO, each seasoned team (teams at least a few years old) should be required to put a Mentor through Ref Training. All the Refs would be required to ref a few practice matches. It would give the Head Ref the option to sub-out a Ref if a Ref is not up to the challenge. The trained Mentor gives the Team a different perspective on the game.

BTW: I also think that every team (including rookie teams) should put a Mentor through Robot Inspection certification, and have to complete the inspection checklist for their team's robot before Stop Build. It would help to identify problems in advance, and guide building of the robot next year (make certain things more easy to inpsect).

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Refs must be pretty thin-skinned, because no one is attacking them personally. No names are named. We could name names - there are refs here in Michigan that I like and those I don't, based on their track records - but we choose not to name the refs, but rather identify just the poor calls and the mistakes. And let me tell you, there are far more mistakes than get posted about on Chief Delphi (missed crossings for days). If FTAs or Lead Queuers screwed up as much as the refs, they'd be run out of town.

I don't like it when good but tough calls are questioned. I'm talking about the situations where neither decision is great. The Newton SF non-replay is a good example. Referees need to make tough calls and questioning them doesn't make it any easier. But the truly bad calls? What can I say, they were bad.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Re-posting from this thread: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=148072

Why do you believe that ChiefDelphi is the place for constructive criticism for referees?

My opinion is there are many other more official ways to handle a poor reffing situation (because, yes, they do exist. Yes, they need to be addressed.)

Here are some suggestions:

1. Question Box at the event. This is the quickest and most official method of questioning a referee.

2. Talking to the Volunteer Coordinator in person about your concerns. Usually the VCs contact information can be found on the event website. As a VC myself, this is extremely great information to know. Sure, I may ask if you want to ref yourself, or if you know of anyone who will (I'm always trying to recruit everyone around me anyway), but I'll listen, I'll note your concerns, and I may reassign the guilty ref to a different position at the next event IF POSSIBLE.

3. Talking to the Head Ref about your concerns. The HR won't be able to explain much about a call after the event is over, but they can listen to your concerns and take them into account for the future.

4. Talking to the Event Coordinator about your concerns. (similar to the VC).

If you absolutely must address it via social media or ChiefDelphi, then don't simply say, "The reffing is poor. This call was wrong." Because that isn't constructive criticism at all. It's acting like a backseat driver. If you truly believe that CD is the media to use and the way to make change, then suggest a solution to go along with your criticism. Otherwise it's not CONSTRUCTIVE, and it's just complaining and whining.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I disagree. Indeed I don't recall any 'names being named' but the ref is usually in the video. The ref (if following CD) knows the name, the entire reffing crew at the event knows who you are talking about, the ref's team's(and former teams') members know who you are talking about, many volunteers at the event knows who you are talking about, and so forth. They are being attacked personally. Would you say "The driver of team #### really messed up and it cost us the match"-- no because that would be attacking them personally, even though you did not name them.

Would you be willing to sit down with the ref and say "I think you made the wrong call, I'm going to post a video of the match on CD and state my arguments so hundreds of people can also make judgments about your call, many of whom will post in agreement with me."

If I have a co-worker who is screwing up, I don't blast an email to the whole company describing the situation in enough detail to identify the person, but avoiding naming names. I go through proper channels, which for FRC as was stated partially in the OP and re-iterated in another post is the question box, the VC, and the regional director, and then HQ (though I hope very little would rise to that level)

Perhaps FIRST should formalize a referee 'complaint' system that codifies this. Head Ref would still have final say on the field, but the complaint system would help sort out the more qualified refs for advancement to head ref positions and DCMP and CMP roles. Unfortunately, it is likely such a system will have its own disadvantages.

The biggest unintended (and mostly hidden) consequence of these public airings (and I have personal knowledge of this occurring) is that many people who would otherwise volunteer to be a ref don't even start, and others who have ref'd stop doing so, especially at DCMP and CMP events where the stakes are greater.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Keep in mind when using the question box that there is very little time between matches. You are going to get one chance to ask your question. Think through your question. Ask a clear question to get a clear answer. You are not going to get time for many follow up questions. If it is a rule question it doesn't hurt to have a copy of the rule available. Be tactful. Don't come across as if you know the rules better than the referee. (Even if you think you do :] ) Keep in mind the referee's call is stressed and under time constraints. Don't confuse a curt answer for a lack of caring. Even if you think the answer is wrong, it is the answer and the head referee is final, except it with GP. In the end the some total is more than one bad call.

After every event a survey is sent out by First. I think it goes to the primary mentor, but it is meant to be filled out by everybody. It is meant to be filled out by every body.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

This is exactly the toxic mentality the OP was hoping to avoid. When you have this mentality, you provide the ref with two options: be perfect or don't volunteer. As the first is an impossible task, you've just eliminated every ref.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

You forgot to add, "It's all about the robot."

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Another ref chiming in. As my first year as a referee it was definitely interesting to be on the other side of the table. I was a driver when I was a student, and now I occasionally drive coach (depending on the season). This year I happened to be both a ref and drive coach.

It is understandable that people won't go out of their way to post positive opinions. That takes effort and motivation that you lack when compared to when you are angry about something. I'm not surprised that the number of posts that are criticizing referees outnumber the posts thanking us by a large margin. But, I will shout out the teams and mentors at CHS district events. Going off of the posts here, you ALL showed us love that was scarce in other places. Unlike some of the posters here, I was thanked numerous times while wearing the zebra stripes, and drive teams were all awesome to work with.

We are all human. Referees are trained for their roles, but that doesn't make them immune to messing up. It will happen. I refereed something like 247 matches over the season. To think that I didn't make a mistake in one of those matches would be foolish. Not only that, but it is my first year reffing. I know I made mistakes, and I learned from them.

Overall, the reactions here on the forums are expected. The only thing that I have issue with the jump between complaining about some calls, and calling all reffing this year bad. Yes, specific instances may have been questionable. Yes, people have the right to complain about us. But, when you look at the sheer amount of matches that went on, and then compare the amount of calls that are complained about, it paints a VERY big difference on how "bad" reffing was this year.

And again, shout outs to the teams at the events I reffed at. You were the definition of Gracious Professionals, and made my day with your comments.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I will admit that as the rule expert for the team, I had the whole game manual (all but section 1) printed out booklet style, separated by section, and folded in my back pockets for the whole regional (I had been going over the rules quite a bit the week before, so I had the game rules somewhat memorized already). And it did come in handy a few times (mainly when we needed to look up a rule and my iPad with the manual downloaded on it was back in the pit and we were qued for a match).

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

The refs at KC did this too, along with pulling up the q&a occasionally on my phone. ::rtm::

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I want to say that I think the refs I interacted with this season were truly wonderful and hard working, reffing this game is a really hard job, things move fast and there are a lot of robots and actions to track. Often when making a call at the end of the match refs have to rely on their memory to look back, which is imperfect, and they have to make the best calls they can. There can be cases where there is no "right" or "wrong" call, it all depends on how a specific event is remembered and interpreted.

Given all that I think that refs work very hard make the best calls they can in a high speed game, and I think they did a wonderful job.

There were many times this season I used the question box to talk to the head ref, and they could have gotten annoyed at my repeated visits, but instead I felt that they really valued what I was saying and took it into consideration, and they gave me an open and honest explanation of their call. I think this interaction helped the all of us better understand the factors involved and helped the refs to make better calls, and me to avoid penalties and drive better

One final thing, it seems like we only ever hear about the refs when people think they screwed up, perhaps we should do more to recognize the refs who do good, so with that in mind, three cheers to the refs who volunteered in the chesapeake district, great job guys.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Being critical of referee quality and thankful for referee volunteerism are not mutually exclusive.

I have good relationships with many people on the volunteer reffing crews for all of our local FRC events. I make a point of thanking them for volunteering for this thankless job, usually with a hand shake and a "thank you for volunteering your time."

Most of the issues I see in FRC reffing come down to training (and sometimes game design). This is similar to the primary issues I see with FRC inspecting. I typically send my concerns to FIRST HQ, as I already have with some of my observations from CMP 2016, in hopes that training will improve in the coming years.

Big thanks to all the event volunteers, referees included.

-Mike

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I volunteered as a referee at two district events this year, for the same reason EricH gave -- a VC asked me to, because they were short handed. So after the robots were all inspected, I put on stripes.

BTW, the referee certification process is harder and more time consuming (for me) that the one for robot inspectors. Also, inspecting naturally includes time for reflecting on decisions, while refereeing emphatically does not. I am much more comfortable as an inspector.

Carolyn Grace made the most important points in this thread, I think, when she wrote about all of the avenues available for provide constructive feedback for volunteers. VCs want and seek this feedback, and getting it helps them make future events better. Getting that feedback is actually part of their job, and not an interruption.

If I make an error as a volunteer, I hope someone like Mike Corsetto will come let me know. Let the VC know also, but I want to correct my problem ASAP.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I think teams that feel that their season or their inspiration has been slighted by a poor call by the refs should start looking at how to supply more refs or volunteers to the event or competition events in general BEFORE they bring out complaints of bad calls. Also, a long term solution to the problem of not having an abundance of refs at events might be for Chairman's Judges to start looking at which teams are providing mentors to be trained and volunteer as refs or other volunteer positions during competition season. If every team hoping to win a RCA supplied one mentor to be a ref at the event, I think the event coordinators would have a much easier time making sure the event is staffed by enthusiastic and competent refs, and the teams might leave with a better experience.

Just my opinions, feel free to make them your own.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

This game was a very hard game for refs, and their hard work and simple graciousness for volunteering should be commended. Compared to last year, where most of the reffing could be done after the completion of the match, this year is very fast moving with many game objectives and elements.

I can definitely sympathize with referring under these conditions, especially for lesser experienced refs, as I myself have reffed for games with much less complexity in VEX. Competitors also need to understand the fact that refs are not perfect, and most likely will not be able to remember what happened 54 seconds into the game in the opposite corner of the field. No matter how trained, refs will not become superhuman omniscient beings. The total amount of mistakes they make in relation to the total amount of matches is probably less than the amount we make in our daily lives.

Now let's face it, we need to something to eliminate bad calls. The problem is it can be very hard, even for trained refs, to do this. I believe this is where video review comes in. I would love to see how video review, with obvious regulation, would work on reducing the pressure on refs as well as the reduction of bad calls.

Let's hear it for the Refs!!! Thank You!

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Richard,

This sort of approach is very admirable.

My favorite Key Volunteers have this same approach. I've had many positive, constructive conversations with Head Refs and LRI's regarding rule interpretations. Not necessarily regarding any specific match (this is not my place), but regarding rules in general and how teams can expect these key individuals to make calls. Often, I find that I might be aware of a Q/A or something else that this individual is not aware of, and we work together to improve the overall event experience.

On the flip side, I have less respect for KV's who hide behind their role and refuse input from participants at the event (through appropriate avenues, of course).

-Mike

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I think it would also help if all teams read the rules... Then you would not only have Mentor understanding, but Student understanding as well.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

This is a poor comparison. You don't call out poor performance of alliance partners because badly performing teams are part of the game. Sometimes you select a bad team, and sometimes that team makes mistakes, but as long as their actions are within the confines of the game (or even if they aren't) it is still part of the way the game is played.


This is different from the referees, whose job is to enforce the rules as they are written, the referees aren't a team, they aren't a player, they're supposed to be an unbiased entity, not play the game, they're basically an extension of the field. So when the referees seem like they're influencing the game too much it gets frustrating. I accept that I have to worry about the performance of my alliance partners, I shouldn't have to check to make sure a referee is watching before performing a crossing.


I really appreciate the job the referees do, its a difficult and necessary position to fill, and one that seems to consistently get the short end of the stick by the procedures and resources they are given. I'm sure many of them second guess their calls on a regular basis and want to do the best job they can. I hope that in the future they can be given the resources they need to succeed.


If the referees continue to be required to spread their attention over too much field, it is likely that teams will begin to adopt strategies to get referees to pay attention to their robot even earlier in the season. Like the glass banging during 2014.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Do you have an actual rebuttal? FIRST isn't all about the robot, but the point still stands that if you mess up the competition you mess up the inspiration.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Now, we know that Ed won't volunteer to ref, the queuers will be crying about that. And we know that all these people complaining about the reffing won't volunteer to ref.* So, who is going to take on one of the toughest volunteer roles in FRC?

*"Can't handle being under your own microscope" being the reason... PROVE ME WRONG, please!

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

When rules are written "FOUL if INTENTIONAL" and then I have .01 seconds to decide if that was intentional, which foul/tech foul/YC/RC to give, look down to hit the button on the panel, radio my head ref to inform them, and still watch everything else going on in my area, I'm gonna mess up once in a while.

I'm sorry, but yes we are. We have to work as a TEAM to try our best to make good calls, get everything right, and provide the best experience possible for all teams at an event.

The unbiased entity part is where I think it gets tricky to ask heavily involved mentors to step up and ref at events. They want to watch their team do well, so they might not pay as much attention to their end of the field.

Refs are an extension of the field in a weird sort of way, but the field also breaks sometimes. And under certain circumstances that means a match is replayed. Like broken field bits, refs can "break" too and mess up. Sometimes this means a score/penalty/foul/etc is changed after the fact.

I think you're meaning influencing as refs missing crossings for example, or calling are lots of fouls? I'll say that yes, a ref can influence a game heavily by missing crossings, but I won't say that it's the ref's fault if many fouls are called. I put that one squarely on the GDC for the game, or the team for their choice in strategy

side note -- I will continue to be a ref for as long as I can, however I will probably be picky about the events I ref at, knowing that one bad call could land me in the Hall of Ref Shame on CD :p

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

If any of the above as far as mentors going through Robot Certification or Ref training is truly available, I would appreciate someone private messaging me how to go about this. I know I seen calls this year that i wasnt sure about but it was more about trying to find out why something was or wasnt called versus complaining about a call. Anytime a team member (student or mentor) questioned something, i tried to find info on CD or on Questions and Answers website.

Our team went to a practice regional and a handful or so teams were told their robots were not in compliance. This was vety near the end of build season. I know most of them were new teams or 2nd year teams that had not dealt with bumpers before. I could see myself going through inspection training and then visiting local teams on a weekly or do schedule to give them insights into how well they are doing to pass an inspection.

Let me know your thoughts.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Oh completely, the rules this year had a fantastic amount of subjective conditions attached to them.

I'm sorry, but yes we are. We have to work as a TEAM to try our best to make good calls, get everything right, and provide the best experience possible for all teams at an event.[/quote]

My phrasing was poor, I should have used the term "player", "competitor", "contestant", or "alliance" instead to make the meaning even more clear. I hoped that the rest of that paragraph would have provided sufficient context for the use of the word "team".

I completely agree. However, I think the instances of the refs changing a call are significantly rarer than the refs making a poor call. Its a shame and I understand that the refs are doing the best with the resources they have, which is why I think the refs need more resources (as described in the last two paragraphs of my post).

You got it! Missed crossings as well as weird calls regarding crossings and boulder possession were probably the most irritating parts of this game.

I am going to assume that you didn't quote my last two paragraphs because you agree with them. From my perspective the refs are often setup to fail by the requirements of their role, the rules, and the regulations governing their position. I hope that someday referees are able to be used to their full potential, making the subjective calls necessary to influence the way the game plays and keep it fair and fun for all entities involved. Until then, I'm going to have to keep explaining to parents that the question box is really just for clarification, not contesting a penalty. And that yes, I know they missed it, I know you got it on video but unfortunately it doesn't matter because refs don't review video, yes that is an actual rule, I'm sorry, please don't go talk to them, it really won't change anything.

Every year the refs put up with one of the most difficult jobs on the field. I appreciate their contribution and hope that someday there is a game where their jobs are are appropriate in scope and setup for widespread success.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I completely agree with both of these. I'd really like FIRST to consider not making the ref/inspection training materials "hidden" or secret (or whatever non-public status that have now). And who knows, perhaps they'll get a few more volunteers out of the process as well.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Wow this thread fell apart quickly.

Referees are definitely underappreciated. But it's really easy as a competitive person to throw the blame for your loss somewhere else, especially if it seems like a controversial call made all the difference.

My final year as a student in 2014, we were eliminated at the championship event on foul points alone. I was furious at the time, and I ended up crying in the pits, snapping my safety glasses in half, etc. (Not my proudest moment)

In my mind I had put in hours and hours of work with the goal of a championship in mind, then we lost because of "stupid fouls".

In hindsight I know it wasn't any referee's fault, and upon reviewing match footage and such, I can see why a referee called what they did.

And I think that last part is key- looking at the situation from the referee's point of view. Referees are just trying to enforce a set of rules handed to them. Some are subjective, some are based entirely on intent, and some are called differently event-to-event.

And there aren't a ton of sports where referees never make controversial calls. Even seasoned referees at sports that have been around for ages make mistakes, and you expect referees that learned the game less than 5 months ago, oftentimes a day or two prior to be infallible?

Criticism is okay, as long as it's constructive and considerate, not fueled by anger. Referees are people too, and I don't know a single referee who isn't doing their best to make the right calls at all times.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Inspection and ref training typically is released in late build season, and is only available to inspectors and refs respectively.

So, your best bet is to figure out who your area's LRI typically is (seeing MN, you'll want to PM Jon Stratis), and say "Hey, I would like to inspect next year, can I run through some practice in the offseason?" And then you volunteer in VIMS for a regional. Similar for the refs, though for that you'll just contact your local offseason about volunteering as a ref. (If they can't take you, ask who the head ref is, and contact them directly. Works wonders.) Then you put in in VIMS. Side note, don't do both at the same event. Trust me, it's not fun, particularly on practice day.

That being said, I know that the local pre-bag scrimmage in my area had one ref (me, having passed the training the previous night) and two inspectors (my dad, and myself). The purpose of that scrimmage is to get teams on the field and tell them what they need to fix, while they have a few days to do the fix. We found some possible pretty serious issues there, and I saw every one of those teams in competition later that year. Very few of them still had those issues, because they Knew about them, and they could Plan to deal with them.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Background: I've been a ref since 2008 at different events with different ref crews and head refs. Before that I was a student on a team for three years (Hi Alicen!), including time on the drive team.

I appreciate the sentiment from the OP, but I think it's perfectly reasonable and understandable for people to post questions about close calls. Most of the discussion is constructive, and as a ref I'm interested to see how the rules are interpreted by teams.

That said, in many posts relating to questionable calls, I see comments like "refs don't care about the teams" or the idea that refs are out to call as many fouls as possible. FIRST is a big place, but I've never met a ref with that attitude. From the refs I've volunteered with, I get the same attitude: I want teams to succeed. I want them to play fairly. I want to give teams who have put in the effort to understand the rules the game they deserve. And I hate when penalties swing a close match.

At the same time, I'm not perfect. I'm not a professional -- although I do put in hours of training and take time off work because I believe in FIRST's values. Have I missed calls this year (and other years)? Absolutely. Did I miss a few crossings over a few hundred matches (not even counting the poorly designed sally port)? Yes.

After the match is over, this is probably true. In most cases, changing a call means replaying a match, which is suboptimal for everybody involved (not that a bad call is optimal). And when games have lots of fouls, sometimes you don't even remember what foul you called a few minutes before, much less all the circumstances. At the same time, what people don't see are the internal discussions where a foul isn't assessed, or refs reconsidering a scenario during a match and deciding to "un-call" a penalty. I've flagged things, entered a foul, and then thought for a few seconds before deciding it was legal or ambiguous enough to give the benefit of the doubt.

One last thing, to those who say that people don't target refs personally or that refs aren't driven away because of negative reactions: Several years ago, I was at an event where we DQed an alliance in an elimination match because the rules were strict that year and that's what they prescribed. It was a close call, and the head ref (and the rest of the crew) were booed from the stands. Shortly afterwards a couple CD threads were started attacking the refs for the call. The experience contradicted everything FIRST stands for (although the team later apologized), and if it had been my first year I definitely wouldn't have come back.
It isn't being thin-skinned to be affected when people tell you you're doing a bad job. And even less so when you're doing that job because you want students and this organization to succeed.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

All of this. Refs have a hard job, and I can see why refs may miss fouls, and to be honest don't really fault them for it. The majority of refs are fabulous individuals that put a ton of time into understanding how to make the right calls in the right situation in order to keep things being fair.

That being said...

Bad head refs really really grind my gears. If I come up to you with the rule book in my hand to try and convince you of what I consider a correct interpretation of the rules, and the head ref feels the need to make up additional requirements beyond what is written into the ruling or is unable to come up with a reason that I am incorrect, all without changing their interpretation of the rules... That is when I become frustrated with the referees. I interpret that as a "I don't want to admit I am wrong" kind of attitude. It is unfortunate that some head refs with a lot of event experience, knowledge, and respect act this way, and unfortunately I have only had these experiences with a few of the world championship head refs. The guys that are supposed to be the best of the best and be on your side when trying to understand your positioning. These are the kinds of refs that I don't want on my field. I appreciate their contributions, but the execution of their contributions bug me.

tl;dr

97% of refs are awesome, 3% are not, and are unfortunately often in the head ref role :(

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Yes and no. While refs aren't supposed to talk about the calls that they do or don't make and the discussions that are had about whether or not to make specific calls, there's almost always a lot going on "behind the scenes" where the refs may change a call even without a team challenging it.
I completely agree that refs need more resources, and said since kickoff that we were going to be shortchanged with the number of refs watching the field

You are correct, I agreed with what you said, I mostly just wanted to clarify a few points. And yes, refs are set up to fail, the position is one of very little mercy, but it's sooo much more fun to be right where the action is :D

Also, Hi Michael! I didn't know you were still reffing! You should come on down to one of the new PCH District Events sometime!

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Thank you Refs and all the rest of the Volunteers that make FIRST happen!

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Do you believe you were able to convey this information to people who could make a difference? Was your feedback acknowledged or acted upon?

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I can only speak for inspector training. But there is very little hidden. There is LRI training at First headquarters. Individual LRIs can train there inspectors, but there is no formal training, just a test of robot rules. The best resource is the inspection checklist. It is published mid build. I strongly recommend every team post a copy in their build site. If you can legitimately check off every item, chances are you will fly through inspection.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

I'll just say that on the soccer board I frequent, the sentiment from teams is that they lose because of the refs, and win in spite of the refs.

We're the only "team" that can never win, because you can't make everyone happy.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

The way I see it, FRC has a lot of factors beyond your control. Maybe the schedule doesn't go your way, maybe the refs made a bad call.

The thing is, you can't focus on what you can't control. Time and effort spent complaining about refs won't make your bot or teams attitude better.

It's frustrating to lose because of a refs call, but when it happened to me in 2014, I asked myself "was it really the refs fault?" I tried to think of all the things our team could have done better. Raking higher, making a better pick list, building a better bot, and driving better. Rather than focus on a factor beyond my control, I focused on how I could influence the team next year to a point where factors beyond our control could be ignored.

Its kind of like when a single player "messes up" a game in football by missing the last second field goal for the tie. He isn't truly the one at fault. Sure he misplayed, but his teams defense could stopped more plays or their receivers shouldn't have dropped passes.

I never liked playing the blame game. I feel a lot more can be gained we always look inwards for who to pin the blame on.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Nobody has ever asked me that! :ahh:

I'm lucky enough that volunteering for FIRST is a family affair (mom is head ref, dad is scorekeeper), so we talk openly about many, many things. One of which was that we felt that there would not be enough refs on the field to make reffing easier. (We've said the same thing for other games during other years as well). My family agrees with me, but we've all been doing this long enough that we just do our best to know the rules and make as few bad calls as possible.

There have been a few times throughout our volunteer history where my head ref would throw her hands up and say "I'm doing it this way because it will give the teams a better experience."

I don't believe refs who aren't head refs have a decent avenue to give feedback to FIRST and the GDC on their experience (what was hard, easy, what was not fun, what they would suggest changes for, etc).

In short - no my feedback isn't acknowledged and no, nothing is acted upon.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

If anyone from FIRST is lurking... ^^ THIS ^^

Growth in any organization can be a good thing, or very bad, it's all in how it's managed. We all want FIRST to grow, in more play opportunity (i.e. moves to districts), in more teams, more outreach, more fun, and more inspiration. To do that we need more infrastructure, more volunteers and more communication/interaction with FIRST as we hit bumps along the way.

And to all the volunteers... Thank you.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Wouldn't feedback for a ref (who is not a head ref) be via the head ref? If you have feedback, the head ref should be able to listen and forward it on. If your feedback is a complaint about the head ref, then the volunteer coordinator would be the appropriate path.

There is always an email or phone call to FIRST HQ as well.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

As an experienced robot inspector who has also served as an LRI and FTA in the past, I am very comfortable talking with Key Volunteers and VCs directly, if the need arises. Generally I have trusted their judgement to filter feedback and minimize clutter in the communication.

However, new or less experienced volunteers might want a different channel for their feedback, possible an anonymous one. Some such channels already exist, such as the volunteer surveys we are asked to complete. I can also imagine some situations in which "we've always done it this way" could be a very strong filter, essentially squelching feedback from a more recent volunteer whose perspective could be helpful if it were heard by the right people.

My perspective as a referee is much closer to that of a newbie -- I have only reffed for three seasons now at one or two events each season. My experiences (as a volunteer) with head referees have all been positive, but I have heard comments from some others who had different experiences.

Re: Let's hear it for the Refs !
 

Oh no, I've never had a complaint about a head ref, all the ones I've worked with are fantastic people (I'm totally not biased :rolleyes: )

You're correct in that the head ref is the avenue for giving feedback to HQ, but in my experience, head refs have a heck of a lot to keep track of and don't necessarily log all of the minute things that could be useful feedback.

I personally feel that if HQ asked for feedback from all refs directly they would also be given quite a few ideas on how things could be altered to make everyone's jobs easier.