Championships in 2017
 

I am somewhat scared of how the Detroit and Houston Championships will be conducted, and how the competition will change now that two world champions will be awarded and jazz. The feeling I got from researching on reddit is that now no one will have a true championship experience?

Not sure if this has been talked about recently so sorry if this is rehashing anything from previous threads.

***St. Louis and Houston

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Just note that 2017 will be Houston and St. Louis. From 2018 through 2020 it will be Houston and Detriot.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Thanks for catching that !

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I'd like to note that whether or not you have a true championship experience is somewhat dependent on yourself. If you're going to one of the Champs, you're going to a huge competition with many of the best teams in the country. If it doesn't feel like Champs because it's EVERY best team in the country, then that's that. But it's not like it ever is every best team in the country.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Its all a craps shoot.
We had a rough go in Newton, but had a great time as a team. Things broke, we fixed them. Matches were won/lost by a narrow margin.

AND we only got a chance to compete against one eighth of the teams attending championship.

You'll get the same chance next year during quals.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I'm a little upset at it too. If my team qualifies, we'll be going to Houston, but I have a lot of friends on teams that will most likely be going to St. Louis/Detroit, or don't know where they'll be going as of now, because FIRST hasn't released that information yet. So that kinda sucks, but I'm also really curious as to see how awarding Chairman's will be conducted. And then there's the fact that there will be essentially, 8 teams holding the title of "world champions."

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Can you tell me how you know you will be in Houston?

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Forgive me if this is already common knowledge, but I wondered if it's absolutely confirmed that the FRC itself will be split up? Or is it possible that FIRST might just be moving some of the programs to Houston? (for example, Jr. FLL, FLL, and FTC in Houston and FRC in St. Louis)

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I've only experience Champs twice ('09 and '15) and let me start by saying, no one knows what Champs will be like in 2017. Yes, it will be divided but I would expect the atmosphere and level of competition to still be very good. Of course a lot of teams you normally would see every year there, you won't and we don't know yet which one teams will be going to but until we actually experience it, we can't judge it.

Now that that's been said, in my opinion, I think it will be the same. FIRST will do their best to make it feel the same at each one and I hope they mix up the competition so we don't get one Champs being better than the other but I'm sure it will happen a few times. I'm curious to see how it will work in Houston. The weather here is so bipolar and it can rain in an instant. Looking at how the setup be, I'm curious how they plan to transport robots and pits to Toyota Center and Minute Maid Park if it's raining.

I don't plan to make judgement until I've experienced it. I just hope my team isn't locked to only attending Houston every year.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

This has been confirmed at least since the last update. (I don't expect it to change either).

It is two champs with all programs at each.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

That and splitting them up into two different cities and two different weekends breaks up the "progression of programs" that FIRST strives to show during Champs. It already was broken when they stopped having FTC and FLL play in the Dome; I'd hate to see it split up completely.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant each champs will have all 4 programs to my knowledge. I'm looking for my proof now...

Edit: http://www.firstchampionship.org/welcome#block-block-54

It will be 2 champs with all programs at each.

My apologies for any confusion caused.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

At least now all programs can be back under one roof.

As "someone" important very recently said... It's for the greater good of inspiration of tomorrow's hope. "Get over it".

Re: Championships in 2017
 

But we were getting to that point with districts now it won't happen.

Also I guess I just don't understand why it's good to have JRFLL/FLL/FTC championships overshadowed by FRC's. Why should these programs and students have their own championships (or atleast an FTC and FLL/JRFLL champs) where they are the ones on the main stage instead of a side show?

Re: Championships in 2017
 

As a four-time FTC World Championship attendee (all four years FTC was in the Dome), I definitely support keeping the programs together. For me, the most amazing thing about Worlds is not just the bringing together of the top FTC teams, but also being a part of the whole FIRST championships; super-regionals offers a similar caliber of competition, but the experience is notably lesser off the filed.

To end with a post of mine from last year:

Re: Championships in 2017
 

All I got to say is God forbid FIRST puts out a bad game next year. It'll make an already difficult transition even more painful.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Since the two "champs" are on different weekends, how about FIRST pays for the Winning Alliance (10 members of each team) of the first Champs weekend to go to the 2nd Champs. On Saturday, the Winner of Champs 1 plays the Winner of Champs 2.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

While your post is incredibly edgy, the shift from one championship to two postseason expos is at best an unknown quantity. The idea of increasing inspiration is entirely subjective, but you can potentially quantify inspiration by team count I guess. If that is your sole metric for a direct increase in inspiration, I guess you might be right. However those of us who subscribe to an idea that an unsupported team is worse than no team also believe that two poorly supported expos can be worse than one adequately supported championship.

Fewer things in life can be more powerful than participation on a FIRST team at a FIRST event, but it's important to realize that fact can swing both ways. Putting at-risk kids into failing teams is damaging. Having volunteers who don't put students first can be damaging. Sponsors and sponsoring organizations who don't understand why a team wants 15k+ to go to one of these expos instead of one championship is confusing for them and can be potentially damaging.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to PayneTrain again."

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I saw this mentioned earlier in the thread but didn't see anyone link to it directly: FIRST has put out an official update with regard to the changing Championship structure at http://www.firstinspires.org/2017-20...mpionship-info

Notable (for me, at least), was that they mentioned they are looking to put together a "Culminating Event" to have the Champs from each event face off at a possibly televised event.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Yes it's unknown. To grow, we must adapt. We must reach more students, and quickly. While a single world championship is certainly inspiring and a very worthy aspiration, does the lack of one stop millions of high school students every year from striving for and being inspired by their state sports championship? Does knowing that you are "only" class 4A champ vs. class 6A champ, or "only" Illinois champ vs. Indiana or US champ, so significantly impact students' and coaches' drive to participate, succeed, and win that we can't go on?

I agree at some point of saturation the split would be a net negative. We are so, so far from that point yet in the reach of the program, we must take risks and exponentially grow.

At this point, in my opinion, the more people we reach, the higher chance of creating successful teams, of bringing more into the fold, of changing young peoples', and our country's, lives for the better.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

This should be a thread by itself and warrants discussion. I'm definitely in the same boat. I encourage other teams to think about sustainable growth.

I would actually like to see data that shows the number of teams that are able to transition from being a 2nd year rookie team into a 3rd or 4th year team. Someone with time on their hands can probably use TBA's APIs to snag that data.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

My thing with a televised event, while it would be awesome is that for 8 teams on 2 alliances, playing a max of 3 matches that are 150 seconds each... that's just under 8 minutes of total action. How much stuff would you have to jam in there for a made for TV event?

Re: Championships in 2017
 

How much of battlebots was actually bots battling? You could have 8 minutes of match in a 1-hour programme. I think this would also be an opportunity to play more than a best-of-three.

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Yes, battebots is a good example of this. But I suspect if FIRST is going to spend a significant amount of money bringing the alliances together to play each other, then they will organise more than three matches for each team. Also I think it would be the type of thing that FIRST would subsidise for the teams involved.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

This is something I've been interested in as well, especially after working with a second year team this year who were struggling after the rookie support dropped away. I've got the data on longevity based on rookie year - I'll grab data on how many teams make it past year 1 and 2.

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This is something I think people need to remember. Not being able to see all of your friends on other teams is a real frustration with the two champs system, and I get that. But when it comes to not being able to see all the good teams, there will still be plenty to make it feel like champs. Can you give me any combination of four divisions from this year that, put together and separated, wouldn't feel world class?

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Champs doesn't feel the same since they have gone to 8 divisions. MSC is already more competitive than Champs. The reason why I'm inspired by FIRST was watching some of the best robots at Champs in 2013 (1114 and 118). FIRST is just diluting the Champs experience. If you have 30 robot points, it's better to make 3 things 10 points than it is to make 6 things 5 points; the same thing applies to Champs.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I find that hard to be plausible, even if FIRST pays for it all it takes is a couple people who can't make it or whatsoever for the plan to cancel. We also have to realize the students and mentors on each teams have jobs and school to attend.

Also, the match up would be unfair because the Winner of Champs 2 would be "more in rhythm" driving wise because they just got done with wining Champs 2 whereas the winner of Champs 1 will be less in rhythm because they had break from driving since the weekend of Champs 1. Giving them some time to practice could make it better but nothing beats getting into the rhythm more than driving in your subdivision elimination matches and Einstein matches.

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Here's a solution. The two winning alliances could play each other over Skype. To substitute for the other alliance at each championship, three field volunteers will be selected at random to dress up in robot costumes and recreate what the other alliance is doing.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I feel like a broken record on this point, but it seems like I keep having to say it.

As a team that has been to Champs 4 out of the last 4 years, I think you might be a little biased. 14% of FRC teams went to Champs this year. If you had your way, it'd be 9.5%. I'm guessing about half of them are regulars at champs. So in a 4 year span, maybe 25% of FRC gets to 1Champs. Which means that the competitiveness and truthiness of Champs is probably fairly irrelevant to something like 75% of FRC. And it only gets more irrelevant as the program grows in the future, especially as we move to districts and the random elements of wildcards and 2nd picks are eliminated. At some point it's going to turn into a huge expensive party for pretty much the same people every year. If PayneTrain worries about sponsors shelling out $15K to send a team to an "expo", I worry about sponsors shelling out millions of dollars to reach the same people every year. At some point you'd have to wonder about switching to a 2 or 4 year schedule to save money.

Also, I remember way back when Champs admission was changed from a free-for-all to a qualifying system. I'm pretty sure the howls of outrage are louder now only because there's like 5 times as many teams.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

An important difference that FIRST has failed to address: other HS championships have clear distinctions among schools or levels which are easy for participants and outsiders to understand. The Champs/Super Regionals don't have any such distinction--it's just a division of the world into 2 with some fuzziness that's unclear.

I posted extensively last year on why we lose a lot of inspiration with the split. It undermines Kamen's original insight that sports attracts kids attention because it builds up heros that they follow. We will lose our heros by not bringing them together.

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I understand the need to expand to 2 events to add teams. However FIRST HQ ignored several suggestions on how to distribute teams so as to create a single championship. That's where the the real problem is.

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I predict both events will be exciting, fun, and inspirational.

I suggest taking what you read on Reddit with a huge grain of salt.

I predict some folks will be unhappy because the new approach will be different from what they wish for, but being unhappy won't be required. Instead it will be a choice.

If you get a chance to attend either, I recommend choosing to focus on what is in "the glass", and not letting anyone else you in advance that you won't enjoy the event. I'm thinking both glass(es) will be more than half-full.

Deal?

Blake

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I've never been able to see how the super regional to 1Champs proposal addresses the concerns that 2Champs dilutes the field and inspiration. If 2Champs = 2 Super Regionals, then tacking 1Champs on the end of the Super Regionals seems like spending a boatload of cash, plus another week of time and school to extra super inspire an ever dwindling percentage of FRC teams. And, again, probably largely the same teams year in and out. If you're only talking about a barebones, competition only 1Champs strictly to determine who is King Of FRC for the season, then sure. Otherwise it seems like money that could be spent better elsewhere.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

You ever watch American football?

Make it a best-of-5, throw in some filler content (interviews, b-roll, replays/analysis of the last match), and factor in commercial time. I think it could stand on its own.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Recognize the Chairman's Award winner both Chairman's Award winners and play their video both of their videos in its their entirety. Please.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Even though coming from a team that has never been to champs, I was disappointed learning about the Champs split. I have planned, if we ever go to Champs before I graduate, to get to know some of the teams across the world I follow and admire in person. Unfortunately that won't work out.

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Re: Championships in 2017
 

Re: Championships in 2017
 

I haven't seen it confirmed in other threads about the split, but, do we know yet if divisional qualifiers will be played in the arena or in the pits like it was years ago?

If we are talking about a "Championship Experience" I think that playing your matches in bleachers in the pits will be the biggest departure.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

From other threads on the topic, both events are supposed to have all fields in the pits, and use the domes only for opening / closing ceremonies and Einstein. It's possible plans have changed since then, but this information was included with the initial announcement.

I find it funny that they did this split in the interest of giving more teams the "Championship Experience", while at the same time watering the experience down significantly.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

The Houston event is going to be in a Convention Center. Basically a giant room for each division which will be like it's own regional most likely. Having the pits, practice field and bleachers for seating, in each room would be the most logical setup. So basically eight different events going on in different rooms all at once.
Einstein is happening at Minute Maid Park.
The St. Louis event will still be in the dome.
The Detroit event will also be in a Convention Center with their Einstein happening at Ford Field.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Expecting different rooms seems way too optimistic. I see no reason why it won't be identical to 2011, except with 6 pit fields instead of 2.

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Yup...
https://res-3.cloudinary.com/simplev...162eb9a327.pdf

Bleacher layout...
https://res-2.cloudinary.com/simplev...49cd8f6902.pdf

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Well that looks like a terrible idea.....

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That's what they've said, although I have no idea how that would work, considering they're a mile apart. Although we are supposed to have the Q-Line light rail up and running by then!

Re: Championships in 2017
 

For the Lone Star regional, only bleachers A-L are used. The remaining area is used for pits and practice area. Not sure what their plan will be but I think you will have 3 divisions on the first floor and the remaining 3 on the 3rd floor. It would be weird though.....

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Will our pit boxes fit on the Q-Line? :p

Re: Championships in 2017
 

As someone from Indiana, emphasis on the fact that we have a district system, I think I really throw a different perspective into the mix. It seems that already, with Indiana being such a small district to begin with in regards to Michigan and the NE, it seems that every single event, I see the same few faces over and over again. Generally, those same few faces win the events with a few exceptions. Obviously it is not a bad thing, or even a good thing, its just a thing I guess. It would really be nice for us to be able to see some of those cool teams from Cali, TX, FL, etc. especially for those students who have never seen the Poofs or the Robowranglers play.

But, I do see the point that more people will be able to attend champs anyway from Indiana, so at least that is helped. I guess that even though only 2 or 3 more teams will be able to qualify, those few extra spots will allow for a team, who has never gone before, beat out a couple of older teams and finally go to champs again.

Oh well, I can't really make up my mind on this subject I guess...

Re: Championships in 2017
 

Or you could just come to Houston :)

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Run the gauntlet from the Convention Center to Ford Field!

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A parade of robots on streets of Detroit...

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This is FIRST, doesn't it have to be a robot conga line.

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Do we have to make Michigan lefts?

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Nope, you can make a regular left from Jefferson onto Woodward. ;)

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I assume they'll have everyone load up their pits and Robots onto a few trucks, and then take them over. I kind of don't like that this will put a long(er) break between the two playoff rounds though.