Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I don't know if other regionals do this, but Lone Star has "spectator" seating. Essentially, if your team is on the field right now, you are allowed to sit there, and get up as soon as the match is done. At lone star at least, I believe that most people respect these rules, and it works out fine. I personally also like the idea of seating for scouters. A possible system might entitle: when you check in on thursday (or maybe earlier) you need to declare how many scouting seats your team needs, max of 6. Use some sort of randomizing thing, and assign seats for scouters randomly (teams are together ofcourse). Then tape reserved signs on those seats (with the assigned team number) so that there will be no fighting within that area. After that, its up to the non scouters in the team to find their own seats.

If we want to push this idea further, make some "scouting team" buttons (like drive team buttons" and you can only sit in the scouting seat if you have the right team badge......

Before people say scouting buttons are stupid (I don't actually know if people will say that :P ) just remember, scouting is just as important as the drive team.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

We do already employ this in the stands more or less. Everyone at the event has a job to do and if you aren't doing something in the pits or presenting you are in the stands ready to be one of our 8 scouts every match. So we don't have much coming and going in the stands with the main exception of the non-drive team pit crew.

I feel the need to clarify what we do as a team in the stands to "save seats". Almost all of our team except the pit crew arrives at the venue an hour or more early so they are some of the first people in the door. When they get in they find a good spot in the stands and fill into a block of seats leaving a few scattered seats open, usually in the middle of whatever rows we are occupying as well as a few on the end of the row(s). Most people generally feel weird about sitting down in the middle of a group of people but are fine sitting on the end for a while to watch some matches. If someone wants to sit down with us we won't tell them no unless whoever was sitting there will be right back, most people are fine with that. This gives us at least some ability to sit as a group with a few of us coming and going periodically while not being rude about it. For lunch we will cycle the group out about half or a third at a time to keep the block of seats mostly occupied in order to discourage people from taking over the seats and protect the tablets and computers we use for scouting. While it may not overtly be saving seats, it is technically saving seats. So far herd mentality has been the best approach that we have come up with.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Besides the Tableau license, it seems like scouter appreciation varies based on the event. A couple of the regionals in the Midwest (Wisconsin, at least. I think there's a few others that do this) hand out "scouter passes," and they have a dedicated seating area for scouts. The only problem is that there isn't nearly enough seats for 20-30 teams to have 7 scouts there, so it ends up not being worth the effort to get these seats. We're a team of 50-something students and 7 mentors, and at Midwest we tack on another 50 parents, sponsor reps, FTC students, etc. It's pretty hard to move that number of people fast enough to get to the best vantage point possible. A dedicated scouting area certainly has its merits, and I'd like to see FIRST show a greater appreciation for something that has become such a massive part of the culture of any successful team.

I'd just like to take a moment to say that I want this on a gigantic poster, in bold, italic, double underlined red text. The fact that I had to be up at 4:30AM for alliance selections at Champs was understandable, they have to cram a lot of stuff in. However, having to wake up at 5:30-6:00 for a normal day of regional quals matches is silly, not to mention this rarely is early enough for us to get good seats.

This whole thread has gone off in about a hundred different directions, so here's my opinions on the topics laid out a little more definitively:

• Seat saving is fine when it is done reasonably. Teams being together is part of the FRC culture, and it's evident when you look up from the Einstein field and see a patchwork of team colors stretching across 40,000 seats. It's awe-inspiring, not offensive.
• Scouters, and scouting in general, deserves to be recognized by FIRST. It's not like scouting is a niche thing that only the world elite teams do. Everyone does it, and it is deeply ingrained into the culture of FRC. Tableau was a nice step forward, but the place where scouting is underappreciated is at events.
• We always push the GP thing, but not everyone understands it. As people have mentioned in that harassment thread that has been going around recently, mentors and parents are to blame for rude or aggressive behavior >99% of the time. With this ridiculous proportion, I believe it is up to the students to restrain their leaders when they feel it is necessary. As a graduating student to other students, don't be afraid to call out one of your mentors if they aren't being gracious or professional. (graciously professional?) Mentors are people, very smart and dedicated people, but they aren't tyrants. On that note, and pardon me if I'm talking out of place, but... to mentors who are aggressive about seats, chill. It might be frustrating, but a little bit of patience goes a very long way.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Someone is going to wind up in the "good" seats and someone isn't. Are you saying that you want a process that ensures you get a good seat, that pushes someone else into a bad seat, and that doesn't involve you getting on line earlier than the person who will be enjoying the bad seat you think they should sit in????

You might not word it that way, but that's the net of it.

Please don't be the person who tells anyone right now that any group of ordinary spectators needs to have a few people rush in to claim and save seats so that the total group all sit in good seats when they arrive later.

Why? Because when you do that you are telling everyone else, including me, that their/my place is in the bad seats that aren't acceptable to you.

Who made the people in the rule-breaking group the special people who don't have to sit in those seats that aren't good enough for them, but are apparently good enough for the unwashed masses (the rest of us)?

That is the perception seat-saving creates in many, many, many people.

Chinmay said it well in his earlier post. That's the sort of thing that makes our beloved Jar-Jar Binks exclaim, "How rude!".

I agree that waking up at ridiculous hours to stand in queues is silly. I'm confident that most folks would endorse an improved method that made sense. FIRST could allocate seating by flipping a lot of coins, by drawing names from a fish bowl, by playing rock-paper-scissors, or by whatever other process might make sense.

In the future, however FIRST wants to allow the process to unfold is the process I'll follow; but right now the process is, "Don't save seats."

Blake

PS: If 2, 3, 5, 10, ... teams at an event habitually form a large group (a mafia? :eek:) of seat-savers who manage to more or less equitably carve up the best/better seats at an event(s) year after year, or at multiple locations in one year; they shouldn't wear out their arms out patting themselves on the back for being gracious to one another.

At a 48 team event, those cooperative savers just told the other 46, 45, 43, 38, ... teams at the event(s) that those other teams belong in seats the savers are unwilling to sit in. They basically told all those other teams to suck it.

Again, that is the perception large-scale seat-saving creates in many, many, many people.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I was trying to come up with a reasonable reply myself, but in typical internet fashion the solution is cats.

How many student versus mentor and parent replies have there been to this thread? I'm curious now after Evan's post.

Back with an edit when I am done counting.

maybe 15 student posts versus 90 mentor/parent/adult

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I think you were looking for this:

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

What I'm saying is that the current "rules" (in quotes because of the prevalence of rule-breaking in this specific context) punish large teams, while providing no gain or loss to smaller teams who can get their whole team together relatively easily. (note the world "relatively," I'm sure it still is a pain) Additionally, the current seating "rules" punish scouters by forcing them into bad vantage points. Every team deserves a good spot for their scouters. I recognize that there will always be teams with good seats and teams with bad seats, but what I care about is the scouts having good seats, because they deserve more respect than what they get currently. Citrus Dad said it best earlier when he said that seats are a scarce resource that there is no fair way to allocate, but we can at lease give scouts the respect they have earned.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I totally disagree. First of all it is a rule, not a "rule." And second, no it is not easy for a small team to find seats that are all together; in fact it continuously requires conflict with the rule-breakers.

If a team is large, then they MUST have enough people to get their butts into at least half of the seats they save. No team needs 30 pit scouts. I am utterly aghast at the number of "large" teams who feel that they are justified in breaking the rules (not "rule") and spirit of FIRST to send a few people (from zero to five people) with signs and posters to set aside 40, 50, 60, and as I estimated this year in Curie, 80+ seats.

I have also observed that the big block of seats "reserved" are never fully used by those teams through the majority of the matches. Looking down into those reserved blocks, there were always open seats, either totally empty or filled with coats, boxes, etc. Not only are teams breaking the rules, they are completely ungracious in their lack of awareness of how much of this commodity they are wasting.

Our team, while looking for 18 to 24 seats had to insert ourselves, each day, between such reservations. We often had to take 3 to 5 seats from such blocks of 40 to 50 "reserved" seats, and always with outward bitterness from the poor parent or student who was tasked with "holding" their reserve (there was often A mom or dad unfairly tasked with upholding that team's breaking of rules-- I always made a point of letting them know how unfair it was for their team to dump such responsibility on a few people).

We could have reserved seats too. We have signs, posters and pennants and banners. The reason why we don't is because it is against the rule. And because we followed the rule, we are forced to be the bad guys who "steal" seats.

I proposed this before, and I will do it again. Some minimal seat saving must be done, clearly, so how about this:
If your butt is in a seat, you can save the seat to your left, and the seat to your right. That is all. If you have a large team, get half of your team out there to the stands.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I'll wrap up my thoughts on this matter:

Just as the 55 MPH federal speed limit was unworkable (and eventually rescinded in 1987), the "no saving a seat" rule is equally unworkable for the many reasons listed here. Just saying "obey the rule" can''t overcome the strong incentives to violate it, no matter how much anyone wishes that everyone will comply.

Even FIRST sees that its unworkable. Otherwise, why would FIRST tolerate teams camping out at 4 am and allow those teams to move under the eaves in the rain? Why would FIRST fail to tell volunteers to go around and warn teams not to stake out spaces at 7 am after the doors open? Why doesn't FIRST tell all teams to take all of their equipment and belongings outside during the 2 hour lunch break? The answer is obvious--they really don't care about this rule.

That said, FIRST won't change this rule until the value is readily evident to FIRST of assigning seats in some fashion. Creating an assignment system would have costs at least in volunteer time if not in materials and other resources also. It's an axiom of resolving a tragedy of the commons that the value of defining property rights need to exceed the transaction costs of defining those rights before those rights will be defined. We probably haven't reached that point yet. There isn't enough conflict in the stands, nor embarrassing incidents with prospective sponsors. We will have to go along with teams maintaining an uneasy truce over the need to save seats for many practical reasons versus teams and spectators that may not understand those reasons.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Honestly, I think the best workaround is: Save seats, but allow anybody from nearby teams (or non-team spectators) to sit with you if you have the space and aren't actively using it. Save the seats... by sitting in 'em.

And then be gracious when someone asks to sit there.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I can't speak for every event, but at Lone Star we listen to complaints about excessive seat saving, and we address them.

Based on the clarifications by your teammate, I'd say y'all don't fall into the egregious category that started this thread, since y'all allow others to temporarily occupy "your area." The problem comes from people holding a dozen seats, and unwilling to give up a single one for a kid on crutches (yes, that happened last year at champs).

Have you considered the possibility that, by strictly constraining access to several regularly unoccupied seats, that those teams are artificially inflating the scarcity of seats, and thus causing this problem in the first place? Ever ride on a subway or a bus? Those seats are first come, first serve, too. But there's an unwritten rule about what a man should do if a woman boards and there's no available seats. The solution isn't assigning seats, its generosity.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

So sorry, I do have a policy for times like this... If you are saving bulk seats, let the random few sit in them.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

While I would really like to see some sort of system in place, that is "fair" to assign seating, BUT I honestly can't think of a single way that this would work.

At this point, all I care about is that my team's 4-6 scouters get decent seats... I don't think it will be too hard for regionals to "rope" off an area, saying it's for scouters only, and to sit there you need to have one of your team's limited (i dont know how many there should be) "scouting buttons/badges".

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Each person gets to decide what they individually will do when they are tempted. Some will succumb to temptation. Some won't.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Just from a math perspective, even a third of the team is fine. One person saves two seats. 1/3 the team saves the other 2/3 of the team some seats.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I think part of that is because many students who have frequented the site knows after the ref threads that their opinions arent always listened to..

At least at the two PNW events we go to (West Valley/CWU) everyone has had their general area that they sit at (for example the past two years we took a corner at WV) and we all let others come and go as they please, as long as they arent being obnoxious.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I appreciate when I am told a team will "allow" me to sits in "their" seats. FYI we have a 6 girl team. We seldom see the stands. However I would like a videotape of any team that informs my mother that she had to move from an empty seat. Prepare for an experience. I will play the video and enjoy popcorn for hours. She is old school Irish from south Chicago. Bottom line treat people as you want your mother treated. She is just as important as a team with 80 members. Of which 50 never seem to be in the seats being "saved" for them. I tell my young ladies that I donate considerable time and money to help them achieve their dream. I don't save seats. They can hire someone at their own expense for this job. I consider it training for reality.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

We have a fairly large team, but we are rarely all in the stands. Our pit crew and drive team are always gone, and we have teams of students out helping other struggling teams get through inspection or get parts that they need.

At a regional, for a majority of the event, we don't have a whole lot of people in the stands (mostly parents). But when we are playing, most of us are up there. So when there are very few people in the stands, we allow people to sit next to us, because it seems many other teams around us experience the same situation. When we aren't on the field, there is no reason to deny someone the seat that's in our section, especially because they usually are just going to be there for a match or two.

So yes, I would say we "reserve seats," but it's really so that we can sit together during our matches (and even sometimes that doesn't happen, we have people spread around the arena sometimes), but all other times it is a pretty "loose" reservation. Saturday is different, though. Most of us are in the stands a majority of the day, and we make sure to leave a few seats in between us for our mentors and students on the pit crew and drive team so they have a seat with us if we are eliminated or for awards.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

This is ironically where I see a problem and where I think there needs to be a culture change.

You can not ALLOW someone to sit with you. You can invite people to sit with you during those times but if they want to stay they can stay and you can not tell them to leave.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

In any venue that isn't overcrowded, my experience has been that it's easy to sit together without any saving of seats.

When you save seats you push other people into seats you have decided are less desirable. You have told them that they don't deserve the seats you are saving, even though they have followed the rules, and even though your team isn't special in any way.

If, instead, your group simply sits in the seats you want to push other people into, instead of telling those other people that they have to sit in them (in order for you to keep a seat open for someone who hasn't arrived or who is mostly elsewhere), then life is good for all.

You will have graciously not prioritized your own interests above someone else's, and you will have followed the rule.

Blake

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Sorry, bad wording. The thing is, people don't usually stay very long, because 99% of the time, someone needs to sit there for just a match or two, and then they leave. We never ever tell someone to leave, and in fact, we really like interacting with other teams. The point of this, though, is to say that we also like to sit as a team when we are on the field, so we generally spread out somewhat when everyone is out fixing robots. And during that time, people generally sit with us, and we certainly welcome them and in fact invite them to sit as long as they would like.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

You missed the point of what I was saying, though. If you had read what I wrote, I said that people from other teams usually come and go in the section in which we are sitting, because they also just want to stay for a match or two, and we have open seats. So we "reserve" a section in one sense of the word, but we often invite others to sit with us if they need a place to sit. In my mind, that is being quite courteous, as we are not pushing anyone else away from those seats. And when we are on the field, or when finals start, people are usually very courteous and volunteer their spots so that our team can sit together. We have often been the team that sits in those undesirable seats. It depends on the day and the venue. We are, in fact, often on the corners of the stands or in the upper sections or off to the side, for this very reason. We sit wherever is open when we arrive, watch opening ceremonies, and half of the team disperses around the venue, leaving half of the seats which were previously occupied, open for other people to sit.

But when we are on the field or during the awards ceremony, we would like to sit as a team, and we pack in as tightly as we can so there is room for others.

At championships, the only time we ever sat as a team was on Saturday, because everyone was always coming and going.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I don't think I failed to read what you wrote in the earlier post. But FWIW, I personally like what you wrote in the post I just quoted.

You didn't write this originally, "We sit wherever is open when we arrive, watch opening ceremonies, and half of the team disperses around the venue, leaving half of the seats which were previously occupied, open for other people to sit."

I applaud that. I think that is exactly how the don't save seats rule is intended to work.

As far as I can tell you guys are doing the opposite of saving seats, and are setting a good example.

Thumbs up! and +1

Sorry for my side of the miscommunication,
Blake

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

No biggie! :) I only say we "save seats," because we tend to spread out more when we don't have as many people in the stands, but it's mostly so that when it's time for our matches or ceremonies, our members have a place to come and sit. And the people sitting in "our section" (for lack of a better term, I know it's not ours per se) are generally gracious enough to volunteer their seats back to let our members sit with their teammates if needed. But again, we only spread out because if we don't, our students and mentors won't be able to sit with their teammates, because another team is going to try to "reserve" the spot in the traditional sense of the word (i.e. telling people they can't sit there). So I would say that we do reserve seats, but we aren't as strict about it as some teams. We don't have caution tape spread around a section :rolleyes:

Sorry for the miscommunication.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

From my experience, Our team has never had a problem with seating nor do we save seats. Once our whole team is there, they go up and grab seats for everyone on the team WHO IS THERE. If they are down in the pits, the students will drape a coat or sweater over the seat that is needed. Never have I ever seen someone not allowed to sit in a section. I understand this is a main issue at alot of the larger venues and at Worlds.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

By dropping the coat on the chair you are saving seats.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

So then where exactly are those people supposed to sit? Are they supposed to not be able to sit with their team because they've been in the pit all day long? Are they supposed to sit on the other side of the venue by themselves, away from their teammates because their team wasn't allowed to save them a seat?

Just wondering what your team does when you have people out in the pits or on the field all day long, and all they want to do is sit with their teammates for a while.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

If there are no seats left in our area we will move the entire team to an open area. If there are no open areas we don't sit together.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

A large part of the confusion in this thread is regarding the definition of 'saving seats' It means different things to different people.

Here is I think the most strict and draconian definition of not saving seats-- i.e. if you aren't doing the following you are breaking FIRST's rule:

The above asserts that leaving empty seats between members of your party (with or without coats) sends a non-verbal message to others (particularly those that are unaware of the no-seat saving rule) that those seats are 'saved' or 'taken'. The non-verbal is particularly strong if all the occupants that are present are wearing the same t-shirt. It says to any visitor "it looks like I don't fit in here"

At the other extreme:


In between there is all manner of using coats, leaving small gaps of empty seats, asking, pleading with others to look elsewhere, etc.

Consider the following scenario:

Two large teams have team sized 'reserved' adjacent sections which are only 50% filled with bodies (maybe less) scattered among the sections.

A large group of people arrive (team, fan bus crowd, general public group, maybe a group of younger kids on a field trip) and they see this and ask the existing team members to compact and sit together so that their group can also sit together. Would you move for them? If not, you can defend that, because you can reasonably expect to stay in the seat you have.

What if the large group decides that taking the empty seats among your teams' seats will get them 'close enough' together-- just like taking a bunch of smaller tables in a restaurant rather than waiting for one big table-- just like the team members you have present are 'close enough'. Will you let these new people sit here, taking most/all of your 'reserved' seats? If the answer is no, I'd claim you are saving seats even if you are willing to let a handful of temporary sitters take some seats. If you are unwilling to give up all your 'reserved' seats to all comers at any time, you are saving seats. Some might argue that if you are sending the message that you are unwilling to give up the seats via coats, spreading yourselves thinly, etc. you are also saving seats, but that is much more arguable either way.

Alas, there are no cut and dried rules that will make everyone happy, due to the special cases of bathroom breaks and drive/pit team seat reservations during playoffs.

Personally, I would advocate that *only* bathroom breaks or concession breaks (of reasonable length) and drive/pit team reservations during playoffs are justifiable scenarios for saving seats.

But the current rules do not allow that.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

They're supposed to sit wherever there is an open seat. If the venue is packed, it is likely that there may not be enough seats with the bulk of the team to accommodate the entire pit crew or late-rising parents, etc. This is how it works - by definition.

The worst part of this is it isn't usually other teams that you put off by saving seats - it's curious members of the general public. If someone isn't going to be around for an extended time period, let someone else sit there!

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

We had members of our scout team lose their seats while they were volunteering to sing the national anthem this year.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

No, they didn't lose their seats, once they left to go sing, they no longer had seats. Volunteering is a choice and with it comes sacrifices. I've rarely sat with my team during opening ceremonies because I'm volunteering as well.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Well that should really go a long way toward encouraging teams to send out volunteers for supporting an event--you're rewarded by losing your place to sit.

Sorry, I've really stayed away from this, but when someone makes a statement without thinking through the consequences of what they're saying, it raises a red flag.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Thought I would chime in without quoting anyone in particular with something I experienced on Tesla this year.

This was out first trip to Champs this year, and I was quite fearful of the seat wars. I tried to keep our team civil and accommodating, and succeeded, except for when I almost lost it with the supporters of a team who did not have a clue about what the rules were, nor apparently had ever heard the term Gracious Professionalism. I got over it. The kids, parents & mentors settled into a pattern where we really only reserved 4 or five seats (out of about thirty), and had no problem sharing.

Now for the good part. On Tesla, the volunteer managing the crowd had four rows closest to the field reserved for supporters of teams on the field. I have no idea if this was normal on the other 87.5% of the stadium, but it worked for us quite nicely. Most of the time, we "parked' in a section off between Tesla and whatever field was to our left (I wasn't paying a lot of attention). When our matches came up, we wandered over to the "great" seats and cheered for our team. Then moved on after the match. Two weeks later, I saw our driver on video talking about what it meant to him to be able to see and hear us cheer for them. That plan worked. Was that going on elsewhere?

Tim

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

I believe the reserved seating became universal policy at cmp in 2014.

Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
 

Had it on Galileo.

Though I did have to make a comment to one of those volunteers about the other practically screaming at people to move all the way down (to the exit) when there was nobody else coming in (and lots of empty seats), and the team's robot was playing on the left (entrance) side of those rows, practically defeating the purpose of those rows.