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Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
I think the basic "agreement" should be something like this:
--You CAN save seats, in a block or a line, but only enough for your team members who are present AND likely to sit down during the event (that is, pit crew and drive team don't necessarily count). --Other persons (adjacent teams' members and/or non-team folks) can sit in any open seat, particularly if they ask. --If someone leaves the stands to go to restroom or lunch, they should be able to sit within, or next to, their team's saved area. And the big portion of this: Have the bodies in the seats. Most effective way to save a seat is to sit in it. Translation, 2-3 people shouldn't be saving 40 seats, it should be 20-30 people saving 40 seats (ballpark numbers). If you've got the former, see my second item above. I've got no problem with saving seats for team members so the team can sit together. I've got a problem with not allowing people whose team wasn't able to save enough seats to join you and sit near their team. And I'll go on record that one of the MN teams on Galileo is a great example of this (can't remember who offhand, or I'd call 'em out better). They readily allowed small groups of our team members to take their empty seats when our section was full up. I want to say I recall Buzz doing the same thing a couple of times. |
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
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Adult mentors can prepare for events so long as they know in advance the rules that will be in effect at those events. The current rules say no saving seats. Adult mentors should plan accordingly. That's not my definition. That's the rule. Yell at FIRST, not me. Tell FIRST what they "MUST" do, not me. And please... The world won't stop spinning if a group has to split into two or three smaller groups; particularly if the group planned in advance for that contingency. Quote:
If it's not possible to do it without saving seats, then it's *not* possible. Those teams should plan accordingly; or plan (through their actions) to show FIRST and everyone else at the event that they don't care about following this particular FIRST rule. I would be curious to learn what reason they might have for asserting that the rule doesn't apply to them. Quote:
I wrote that teams need to take into account FIRST's rules (all of them) when selecting a scouting system to use. I have done FRC scouting from places throughout a stadium and I know enough about what scouts need to do. Until FIRST changes FIRST's rules, scouts should follow FIRST's rules. What you wrote here almost sounds like you are telling us that all successful (on the field success) teams use scouting methods that depend on ignoring/violating a FIRST rule in order to create their success. Surely that isn't true. FIRST's rule, not mine is that seats may not be saved. I presume they did that to create a welcoming environment in the stands where all people employ their most gracious and professional demeanor. How we got from there to discussing my alleged selfishness is a bit mysterious. Are we saying that if I walk into an event at 8:00 AM, see 5 people "saving" 30 seats in a nice part of the stands for people who will arrive at at maybe 8:30 or 9:00 or later, that I am being selfish (and the other folks are being gracious and professional???) if I choose to sit in one of those 30 seats for the either the next few minutes or the next few hours???? And that by doing so, I and other like me become responsible for the collapse of FRC scouting???? Again, that's a bit over-the-top. Quote:
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I have also been the tour guide responsible for ensuring that the VPs of a $40B revenue /year company decided FRC was worth sponsoring. Luckily on that day we didn't encounter anyone yelling at, pushing, obstructing, or otherwise harassing someone that they didn't want sitting in one of their saved seats. Sheesh. |
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
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You personally might not like the rule, but FIRST believes it is reasonable (they published it), and FIRST believes that it is workable. I agree with them. |
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
I think there is a different scenario on Einstein than at a regional field. Einstein reminds me of Disney or the Macy's parade where people get into place hours early to watch an event, but stay for the event. Whereas at a regional, there is more coming and going.
The volunteer crowd control job description includes: Prohibit teams from "saving" blocks of seats Now this is hard! But there is someone to complain to if a team isn't letting you sit. Then the crowd control person can support you in your being allowed to sit. (I've done crowd control. People are "creative" in what they say.) At the NYC regional, I volunteer as crowd control or safety glasses and go sit with the team I mentor for our matches. Which means I show up right before or a match before ours and then leave the seat. I'm not in the seat all day. And I frequently sit in a seat near our team's seats that has other team's "stuff" marking it. Sometimes this goes ok. Sometimes the team informs me it is there seat. I usually say I'll be gone before their teammate comes back and it is fine. One time, a lady wouldn't let me sit. She had tons of bags on the seat so I picked up the bags and sat down. Turns out she had her leg up on the seat and I sat on her foot. Eek. |
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
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Whether FIRST believes its reasonable is probably irrelevant because they clearly haven't given much thought to the consequences. And given the complete lack of enforcement they reveal that they believe that it's unworkable. Notably, FIRST saves seats for Einstein teams during the final. If they lived by their words, they would allow any and all teams to sit where ever they wanted during Einstein. Clearly they even recognize that the no saving seat rule is unworkable. So, again give me a rationale as to why its a good policy other than a tautology that FIRST thinks its a good policy? |
Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
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First reserving seats for teams on Einstein is awesome. Its that little special treat teams get for making it. I do not think anyone has a problem with that. Being the team that you are on I am sure you have enjoyed those seats year after year. I started this thread because I believe some sort of action needs to be taken. However, I disagree that the rule is unworkable. With clear enforcement and harsher repercussions I am sure most issues would be more easily resolved. |
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Re: FRC rules around seating need to change.
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Anyway, more on topic: We've saved seats. Thursday morning at Archimedes, we had a bus of 60-something kids get caught in nasty traffic, and it was nearly an hour and a half behind. We marked out an area with people and scouting items, and explained our situation calmly and graciously to other teams. They understood, and were happy to oblige. There was one team who needed a few seats for scouters, and we gladly gave them the 8 seats they needed. It wasn't a problem for us, I ended up talking to them for quite a while and learned a lot about them. Did we "break the rules?" Yeah, I guess. Does it matter? Not at all, because it was handled professionally by us, and the teams around us. They were very understanding of our situation, and we were understanding of their situation. When people are nice to each other, they don't necessarily need rules to guide their behavior. TL;dr: If we were all graciously professional to each other, this whole thing would work a lot better. |
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If you read my proposal, I thought that there should be several groups, one of them getting priority seating. But my point is that scouts are competitors who deserve the same respect as the drive team. You said that teams should build scouting systems that don't require sitting together. And I am telling you that will end innovation in technical development of scouting systems. Do you have experience in managing scouting systems that gives you enough background to refute this point? Please provide evidence that your scouting system has been successfully implemented. I think we've demonstrated that ours works. And yes, all of the successful teams that I've encountered who scout at Champs violate this rule. Every single one of them. I'd be interested to hear any counterexamples you can provide. Obviously I can't provide a list of rule breakers, but I'll start by pointing out every #1 and #2 alliance captain on Einstein saves seats for their scouts. I think the #7 alliance captain does too. (I sat with their #1 pick and know they were saving seats.) And if you want to really solve the problem you identified as a tour guide, then you want to solve the tragedy of the commons problem. When everyone knows what the rights are to their seats so they don't have to fight over them. Everyone will become more civil. Right now is recipe for conflict. You're acting like everyone started driving 55 in 1973 when they changed the speed limit. Instead it turned everyone into a lawbreaker. When rules and laws fail, as they are now, it's time to change the rules. (BTW California's water problems are rooted in the same refusal to acknowledge that scarce resources need to be explicitly allocated.) And if you're with FRC right now, then put your affiliation on your profile. Right now you have no standing in the discussion because you have no real stake. Past affiliation doesn't count. |
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