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Waterjet vs. Manual Build Process?
Our team just recently completed our 3rd FRC Season, as a team we have adequate funding, a drill press, bandsaw, belt sanders, the whole ryobi handtool layout, dremels, etc. So far we have always used the machines in our shop to make our parts and only waterjetted or welded very few components such as sideplates (on a drivetrain).
For next year we are in a debate whether we move towards waterjetting more parts, and then assembling it, or if we stick to our current means which does also involve CAD before and during the build process. The reason this debate exists is because we believe that waterjetting will give us more precise parts which will help us build a better robot, which means more awards, winning, which enables our team to get more money, have a better reputation, etc. But on the other hand we want to keep our current method because it allows kids to get close and personal with tools and encounter problems and learn really deep and intricate concepts when it comes to why mechanisms work, forces, etc that simply cannot be taught via simply assembling a robot. We also believe that our current method is more fun, even though the final product may not be something similar to the high quality of a NASA team. Please give us your input regardless of which side you stand on, we would like to hear whatever you guys have to say! Thank you for your time, Sincerely, Xifilzer |
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I'm sure CD will be filled with comments on awards / NASA teams etc. etc. just focus on what your kids want to learn, what they will have fun with. |
Re: Waterjet vs. Manual Build Process?
Buy a CNC router.
Zero regrets. That is all I have to say. |
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There are merits to making parts by hand and to CNC techniques.
I think for our team, the approach we will stick with is to have team members spend time in the off-season learning how to hand make parts, and then during the latter part of the off-season and into the build season, then transition into designing parts in CAD and then water jetting them. I can tell you from experience that if I owned a business that made stuff I'd have the employees CAD the part, then CNC it. It is a much faster and more accurate process ( if the CNC machine is available ). But again I think hand made parts are more of a rite of passage and learning. But not good for production work. Brackets that would take us an hour to make and not be accurate, we can CAD and cut in minutes, perfectly. For fun, maybe your team may want to take both approaches simultaneously.... making handmade parts and CNC parts, in parallel. The resource is available to you and your team. If you want to follow up to learn how to access this resource, send me an email at edbarker@kennesaw.edu It would be fun and educational to make parts both ways. I think it makes your student a better engineer. This summer we will announce some workshops at KSU where you can come in and give it a try. EDIT: right now you can bend parts on this brake Hopefully we will get a 50 ton CNC brake soon. Good Luck with your team !! Ed |
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For teams that use extensive CAD, water jetting is the way to go. You will have identical parts for your competive and practice robots. You can also have spare parts that will fit exactly.
Cadding the entire robot takes time in the 6 week build season. Rapid manufacturing balances out this initial investment in time. We still use a lathe & mill to manufacture drivetrain parts, and intake rollers etc. so we have lots of opportunities to teach interested students those skills. |
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The bottom line is, real engineers don't spend a lot of time fabricating parts themselves, because these kinds of resources are available to them. And these resources make the job all the more fun and engaging! |
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My team did some water jetting for the first time this year, and we've done a few laser cut parts in the past too. When it comes to designing a part to be water jetted, it takes a different mindset and set of skills. I believe that students can learn a great deal during the design process for these parts. We tend to find a balance between sheet metal parts and manually lathed/cut/drilled parts that keeps our fabrication team busy and engaged but allows us to go for the more complex designs. I think that there's still plenty to learn about the sheet metal forming, bending and assembling process, and still plenty of hands-on fabrication work that goes along with it.
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It actually kind of saddens me to see that you think that getting some parts or an entire robot cut takes away from the "fun" and learning experience. Every year our build gets better and better. Why? Because we first do it in complete CAD. While we did small amounts of manual mill work this season, having a robot laser cut is in my opinion one of the smartest things possible. The kids learn the tools like 3d modeling and analysis, which is what they will have to do in the work force and the time they dont spend machining parts for the competition bot they are making high fidelity prototypes. More than making the prototypes they are breaking the prototypes and learning how to make the final product better, strong, and more reliable.
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As somebody who has used the mill continually for 4 years: send those parts out! I have learned many more things pertinent to my Mechanical Eng. major through CAD than through the hours I've put in on the mill, and if you have the resources I would highly recommend going with waterjetted parts.
The CAD isn't going to make itself, and the robot still needs to be assembled, tested, and reiterated afterwards. Just wondering, have you talked with your kids about the choice? |
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We made our 2016 robot completely in house (classroom) with our Velox CNC router, AirWolf 3D Printer, and Jet Lathe. |
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A few notes.
CNC or Waterjet equipment is NOT NECESSARY to be competitive. 5254 was highly competitive the past two years despite using almost exclusively COTS parts from VEXPro. However, these things can be helpful if used right, and provide a huge learning opportunity for students, especially if your team also uses CAD heavily. I vividly remember seeing our 2013 shooter plates on 20 being waterjetted using RPI's waterjet, and it was inspirational (and effective as well). Advanced manufacturing techniques are not necessary to build a good robot, but they can help make some difficult tasks easier and provide a unique learning experience for students. |
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I've got a few different views on this, mind you I'm from the programming side of the house. Also, waterjet/CNC, consider what's more appropriate. A waterjet is nice but may require significantly more maintenance and upkeep than a CNC. Look at the sustainment costs for each before deciding. I think a waterjet starts at $80k, if you can get one for significantly less please tell us.
1) On the loss of hands on. I've had some debate with one of the other mentors on this who thinks everything should be done by hand. In the real world you will not be cutting everything manually. In fact, you would likely be fired for attempting this. It's not always worth it to build everything by hand or from scratch. 2) You don't have to give up hand cutting entirely. This year about half our robot was hand cut (or could have been, would have to check) and half was waterjet/CNC. Our main frame was box tubing and wood ribs. A few pieces were water jet and bent with a brake. One of our components was right angle aluminum and was hand cut with a hack saw. Determining which is the most appropriate method is another part of engineering (I can build this and it costs X or I can go to home depot and it costs Y). 3) Beware the CAD Trap and Prototype. One thing we've sometimes become trapped by is the design trap of trying to get the robot fully designed and then building it. If we came across an issue, sometimes it would be too late into build season to fix. Hand building can be easier if you don't have as much of a delay for prototyping. Our original drive train this year got stuck on the moat and we did a quick redesign to fix it. This wouldn't have been as easy in years of heavy dependency on CNC/waterjet where we send the components out for manufacture. On a different note, if you don't do it already I recommend you build a practice robot in addition to the competition robot. If you do, try to build the practice first and use it for prototyping, programming, and learning how to build the competition robot. Your programmers will thank you and the build quality of your competition robot will greatly improve. |
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My day job is implementing an integrating CNC and other computer based manufacturing techniques in existing manufacturing processes. The correct answer here is; Do what works for you. Some parts the only way to make them is to have them done on a 5 axis CNC. Others, can and should be done with a drill press and a jigsaw. It depends on complexity and the tools and skills you have on hand. If you have easy access to a waterjet, use that. but if you just need a rectangular spacer with a 1/4" hole roughly in the center, a waterjet is overkill and the set up time will be longer than just using a drill press. For each part spend a SHORT period of time evaluating your options and use what makes the most sense.
I guarantee you that not every part can be made with the waterjet and some handwork is going to be required anyway. There will be plenty of hand work no matter how much stuff you get made on some flavor of CNC. |
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Water jetting is wonderful if you have a local business that will help. We design in Solid works. It wasn't free. We spent about 400$ total on water jetted parts. It was well worth the budget. 1 day turn around as apposed to days and days to make them in house. The smaller parts - gussets, shaft adapters, motor mounts and other plates were done in house with a X-carve router. Last year we held classes teaching many students cad and design. This year over the summer we intend to cover cam with Hsm express. We are going to have a project with the cad cam and mechanical teams to design and build a 3d printer. The goal is to ingrain modern manufacturing methods and the maker mentality in the team and get away from the tedious hand crafted robot parts. It does take money. Find sponsors and fund raise. It's easier to get sponsors when you bring them in on a busy build night and they see kids hunch over the lap tops cading and the cnc stuff running full tilt. Of course there is always those parts that need careful hand crafting.
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Could you give some input regarding a suggested CNC router for FRC use?
It has to be safe, big enough for FRC and easy enough to use with Solidworks or other CAD software. Thanks! |
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1648 has transitioned from a team who fabricated all of their parts in-house with manual machines to one that heavily utilizes waterjet components (Thank you KSU and Georgia Tech!). The transition entailed not just a more detailed CAD, but a fundamentally different design methodology, as we switched from using 8020 framing and gussets towards sheet metal, plates, and tubing. If you wish to transition towards using a waterjet more, be sure to have your students and mentors have the CAD skills and discipline to have up-to-date CADs. Don't be afraid to make revisions and cut the parts out again; I've had to recut parts on the waterjet before because my kids changed some dimensions of parts from additional testing and iteration. If you have any questions on how to integrate a waterjet in your iterative prototyping process or in general, please feel free to pm me! |
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Our team has also recently obtained a waterjetting sponsor, who is willing to make sheet metal parts for us. What press brake do you all use do bend your sheet metal parts? We are looking for one that costs less than $2000.
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Going to agree with BeardyMentor and Gdeaver on this:
You can't build the entire robot with the waterjet unless you simply are using a lot of other COTS parts. There's nothing wrong with using a waterjet, CNC or whatever other tool you have access to; unless you eventually end up abdicating know-how from it. If you find you have some experienced engineers CAD/CAM/CNC your parts (IE the students have no part of the drawing, design or manufacture) for the students all the time: maybe those tools are not helping. Also if your team is large enough hand crafting may not be a big deal. Personally though, I think all students that want to do fabrication should hand craft before they start playing with CNC anything. I find it somewhat distressing if a student can't tell me how to location find or square up parts on a mill or anything like that. |
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Thank you all for your input, we greatly appreciate it! While we will continue to have this debate, the input we received from this greatly helps us, thanks again!
Sincerely, Xifilzer |
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http://www.jettools.com/us/en/p/bpf-...t-clamp/752125 |
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It will entirely depend on the resources that your team currently has. For our team we split the workload between tasks that needed high precision, and those that could get by on COTS parts or with less precision. The team did manual fabrication on the latter while our sponsor machined the parts that we had designed. The design + CNCing took roughly the same amount of time as the manual fabrication did, so we were able to move to integration much quicker than before.
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This year our team acquired this CNC router. Although we have had computerized machining capabililties since about 2011 from a mentor's personal CNC Mill, the router was helpful to our team. In your case however you may pursue more digital machining. I recommend CNC wholeheartedly. The ability to customize drivetrain rails and mass produce repetitive parts is incredible and you will not regret it. You will still make parts by hand, but the really precise stuff can be saved for the CNC.
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We used a 500mm X-carve this past season. Yes, it can cut aluminum. However, it is not the same as a high end industrial router. The X-carve is fine on softer materials. It is based on extrusions and v wheels. There are some modifications that must be made to increase the stiffness. The x carriage is 2 40 x 20 rails with a 4mm gap between them. Look on the X-carve forum for suggestions on stiffening the x axis. The y also needs stiffening on the larger machine. Use good end mills that are coated and designed for AL. 45 degree helix is good for chip clearance. It take time and effort to square the machine and calibrate it. If this done right the X carve can give precise cuts. You will have to go slow. Chip clearance is a must. A couple of re-cut chips will lead to an exercise in friction welding. The X-carve can not " hog" out Aluminum.If you want to "hog" out Aluminum then you need a 6000$ plus machine. 6061-T6 is not to bad. This year with the stress of our catapult 6061 plates failed from shock loads. We got a 4 x 4' x .125" sheet of 7075 from a salvage yard. We cut many parts from it. The X-carve was pushed to the limit on it. .003" depth of cut and 10" per minute travel on an 1/8" mill. The cuts were precise and the 7075 did not fail. One reason I like the 500 X-carve is that it is portable. We do not have the space for a permanent location. I take it to meetings and bring it home. I used an Arduino uno r3 and a Protoneer shield. DRV8825 driver chips. I have had to replace some driver chips. When the driver chips fail it took out the arduino. With this set up I was out 23 bucks as compared to 100$ plus for other boards. Blow lots of air on the driver chips. So yes the X-carve can cut AL but it can not hog out AL. This summer The X-carve is being rebult and modified to give a larger cut area and increased stiffness to allow faster cutting next year. One more thing. Software is important. The cam software should use helical bores, ramps and v-tabs and peck drills. Plunging is not good for the x-carve.
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Team 2341 has used our in house water jet for the past 3 seasons. It allows the team access to fast easily cut parts. We experiment a lot more, still not enough though. We build 2 identical robots. The frames and robotic device can easily be cut in 5 hours. The kids can assemble the frame and drive train in a couple of days. It is a real game changer for our team. Our engineering skills are our limiting factor. We also cut frames for other area teams at no cost.
If you have access, use it. Roger mentor 2341 |
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