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-   -   [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148406)

Sperkowsky 13-05-2016 20:48
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jijiglobe (Post 1586546)
I had quite a different experience. I explained the game as a tower-defense game to most people and they seemed quite excited by it. This especially appealed to high schoolers who have experience playing tower-defense games but might not have been interested in robotics. At the end of the day, appealing to high schoolers is kinda the point. The theme made the game easier to explain and more interesting to watch for outsiders. I also liked the medieval fanfare because it added a bit of flavor and excitement to the events (also felt pretty sweet carrying a division standard onto the field :D ). I'm not sure how long they'll be able to come up with unique, well-integrated themes (perhaps a 4-year theme cycle?) I also think that one of the reasons that FIRST Stronghold is one of the most beloved FRC games in recent history is that it had such a strong driving vision behind it. You might say that that Stronghold would have been better with the exact same game, without the theme, but I highly doubt the current game design would have been reached without the theme.
Its very dependent on who you are showing the robot off to. Since we have been out since week 2 we have had quite a bit of demo time. At certain demos we explain it different ways. I'll give 3 example of demos. The first demo we did was at the Google HQ in NYC there we went in depth about the game explained it as tower defense and talked quite a bit about autonomy. Our second demo was at an elementary school Dodgeball fundraiser supporting autism awareness. There we simply said it shot Dodgeballs for the most part. When kids seemed interested we went more in depth talking about different obstacles and castles but usually they were happy enough with us saying it shot Dodgeballs and us explaining how it did it. The third demo was more informal and was at the school play which we sell snacks at. There were quite a bit of kids in our school who were turned off by the medieval aspect and didn't really understand the idea of Castle defense in fact they really just wanted to play catch with it. We gained a member that day.

But again I'm just one voice among many thousands. Based on the crazy lack of complaints they did well this year.

So what's next year's theme space or wild west?

dirtbikerxz 13-05-2016 20:51
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1586553)
Its very dependent on who you are showing the robot off to. Since we have been out since week 2 we have had quite a bit of demo time. At certain demos we explain it different ways. I'll give 3 example of demos. The first demo we did was at the Google HQ in NYC there we went in depth about the game explained it as tower defense and talked quite a bit about autonomy. Our second demo was at an elementary school Dodgeball fundraiser supporting autism awareness. There we simply said it shot Dodgeballs for the most part. When kids seemed interested we went more in depth talking about different obstacles and castles but usually they were happy enough with us saying it shot Dodgeballs and us explaining how it did it. The third demo was more informal and was at the school play which we sell snacks at. There were quite a bit of kids in our school who were turned off by the medieval aspect and didn't really understand the idea of Castle defense in fact they really just wanted to play catch with it. We gained a member that day.
Well if you explain it this way, it makes sense :P :D. It does make me wonder though, how people can be turned off by the concept of a game being a capture the tower or etc :D, but no I get it now.

ASD20 13-05-2016 21:05
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1586553)
Its very dependent on who you are showing the robot off to. Since we have been out since week 2 we have had quite a bit of demo time. At certain demos we explain it different ways. I'll give 3 example of demos. The first demo we did was at the Google HQ in NYC there we went in depth about the game explained it as tower defense and talked quite a bit about autonomy. Our second demo was at an elementary school Dodgeball fundraiser supporting autism awareness. There we simply said it shot Dodgeballs for the most part. When kids seemed interested we went more in depth talking about different obstacles and castles but usually they were happy enough with us saying it shot Dodgeballs and us explaining how it did it. The third demo was more informal and was at the school play which we sell snacks at. There were quite a bit of kids in our school who were turned off by the medieval aspect and didn't really understand the idea of Castle defense in fact they really just wanted to play catch with it. We gained a member that day.

But again I'm just one voice among many thousands. Based on the crazy lack of complaints they did well this year.

So what's next year's theme space or wild west?
My 2 second game explanation was also "it shoots dodge balls into a tower" because it takes much too long to explain the theme at those types of events.

ASD20 13-05-2016 21:14
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1586545)
The game would be confusing without the theme. The theme tied it all together.
I agree. I think the big difference between 2015 and 2016 is that this year the theme helped the game make sense. The very different tasks of shooting, driving over obstacles, and climbing are all tied together by the theme. The theme makes the game make sense as opposed to 2015 where they could have called the game Stack Attack and it would have made just as much sense.

EricH 13-05-2016 21:19
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASD20 (Post 1586561)
The theme makes the game make sense as opposed to 2015 where they could have called the game Stack Attack and it would have made just as much sense.
Except that in 2003, Stack Attack made a lot MORE sense--see (opponent's) stack, ATTACK!!!! (Yep, that was the game name that year.)

ASD20 13-05-2016 21:24
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1586562)
Except that in 2003, Stack Attack made a lot MORE sense--see (opponent's) stack, ATTACK!!!! (Yep, that was the game name that year.)
I know it was the 2003 name, but I can never think of another name to use as an example because it is so darn catchy.

EricH 13-05-2016 21:33
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASD20 (Post 1586564)
I know it was the 2003 name, but I can never think of another name to use as an example because it is so darn catchy.
Tote Tumble
Stack Attack II: Revenge of the Stacks

Squillo 14-05-2016 17:38
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
I am so tired of hearing the "make it like sports, everyone loves sports, everyone understands sports, we'll attract more kids with sports..." refrain.

EVERYONE does NOT like sports. EVERYONE does NOT understand or get inspired by sports. I, and most of my friends (adults and teens), and most of the kids on our team throughout the years, do NOT like/understand/get excited about sports. Especially team sports like basketball, football and hockey. (Personally, I like individual sports like swimming, gymnastics, and equestrian pursuits, but that's just me.) And we (especially the kids in high school) are constantly told (directly or indirectly, by friends, family, school faculty and staff, and the media) that there is "something wrong with you" if you don't love sports, either as a participant or a spectator. Too much sports-relatedness runs the risk of alienating the kids who might be just wanting to get away from that pressure and find SOMETHING to do that is NOT sports-related.

And, in my experience being a mentor for the past 6 years, the kids who have gotten the most out of the team, and been actually interested in math/engineering/tech and designing/building/programming/driving the robot, were not any more inclined to try or stick with the team when (or because) the game was "sports-related."

In fact, our experience has been that if you attract the kids who will only be interested because of a sports-based theme or game, they soon lose interest when they find out that they actually have to think, do engineering-type work, build and program a robot. Sure, there are kids who like sports AND have the skills and interests to do well on the team, but those kids tend to stick around even when it's NOT a sports-related game.

About the only 'draw' I see for a sports-themed game would be with the general public, and maybe sponsors. But I really don't think that you're going to attract HS kids, who will put in the time and work necessary to really benefit, and stick with the team for more than one season, by having a sport-themed game. And you may, in fact, drive away kids who don't care for sports, and are tired of being constantly urged to go out for a sport, to attend sports activities, and to care about spectator sports.

So while I do like the catchphrases "the varsity sport for the mind" and "the only sport where every kid can turn pro," I don't think we should go overboard with the sports-mania and require that every FRC game be 'sports-related. Personally, one of the things I LOVED most about Stronghold was that it was NOT sports-related, yet was still competitive, fun to strategize, design for, build for, and play, and had a theme that made sense and was likely to attract kids with a bent for doing what we do.

dirtbikerxz 14-05-2016 17:45
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squillo (Post 1586688)
About the only 'draw' I see for a sports-themed game would be with the general public, and maybe sponsors. But I really don't think that you're going to attract HS kids, who will put in the time and work necessary to really benefit, and stick with the team for more than one season, by having a sport-themed game. And you may, in fact, drive away kids who don't care for sports, and are tired of being constantly urged to go out for a sport, to attend sports activities, and to care about spectator sports.
Completley agree with the rest of what you said. Just want to point out, that sometimes a non sport themed game will be way more interesting than a sport themed game for audiences as well. Castle capturing and defense destruction is more interesting than throwing balls into goals and going over hurdles.... :P

Kevin Leonard 14-05-2016 17:57
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1586553)
So what's next year's theme space or wild west?
WILD WEST FIRST PLZ MAKE IT HAPPEN

BobbyVanNess 14-05-2016 18:08
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard (Post 1586698)
WILD WEST FIRST PLZ MAKE IT HAPPEN
Would the shootout be the endgame or autonomous?

I'm imagining a 2015 style split-second race :P

EricH 14-05-2016 18:17
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby5150 (Post 1586700)
Would the shootout be the endgame or autonomous?
Yes.

Automode: Shoot at one of X targets (let's call it 9, but only 3 are active). Each robot gets one SHOT (not "ammo"--just for fun, the limit during the match is 6). Score a hit in an active target, one opposing robot is disabled from "hit" until 5 seconds into teleop. Trick is, you don't know which target goes to which robot. :p (Hitting an inactive target would be worth points, but fewer...)


Endgame: Try to get under cover, because all targets are active, with varying random "hinderances" (something like .5 second lag for 5 seconds, or disable for 2 seconds) applied to FMS-determined robots on the other alliance. Oh, and no reloading. Robots are also trying to get home...

lamiet01 14-05-2016 18:17
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard (Post 1586698)
WILD WEST FIRST PLZ MAKE IT HAPPEN
I can already hear Tom Nader saying " Good Shootin' ". Oh wait, he has said that as game announcer for most FRC games in recent memory. Yet another reason for FIRST to make it happen :D

dirtbikerxz 14-05-2016 18:19
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1586704)
Yes.

Automode: Shoot at one of X targets (let's call it 9, but only 3 are active). Each robot gets one SHOT (not "ammo"--just for fun, the limit during the match is 6). Score a hit in an active target, one opposing robot is disabled from "hit" until 5 seconds into teleop. Trick is, you don't know which target goes to which robot. :p (Hitting an inactive target would be worth points, but fewer...)


Endgame: Try to get under cover, because all targets are active, with varying random "hinderances" (something like .5 second lag for 5 seconds, or disable for 2 seconds) applied to FMS-determined robots on the other alliance. Oh, and no reloading. Robots are also trying to get home...
Oh god... Let the Chaos Ensue :D

orangemoore 14-05-2016 18:21
Re: [FRC Blog] The 2016 Season, by the Numbers
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH (Post 1586704)
Yes.

Automode: Shoot at one of X targets (let's call it 9, but only 3 are active). Each robot gets one SHOT (not "ammo"--just for fun, the limit during the match is 6). Score a hit in an active target, one opposing robot is disabled from "hit" until 5 seconds into teleop. Trick is, you don't know which target goes to which robot. :p (Hitting an inactive target would be worth points, but fewer...)


Endgame: Try to get under cover, because all targets are active, with varying random "hinderances" (something like .5 second lag for 5 seconds, or disable for 2 seconds) applied to FMS-determined robots on the other alliance. Oh, and no reloading. Robots are also trying to get home...
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz (Post 1586706)
Oh god... Let the Chaos Ensue :D
The FMS would never survive.


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