Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I've heard rumblings of this for the past several years. My own team is quite happy continuing with FRC, but the other competition we have participated in since 2009 (BEST) will be no longer part of our plan for the coming school year, as we are intending to add Vex teams instead. I am sincerely curious if any other FRC teams are adding Vex, or are thinking about leaving FRC in favor of Vex. If you are and feel that you can share, would you mind saying what your reasons are, both positive (Vex is fun, for instance) and negative (the expense of FRC is too great, perhaps). Thanks.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

The legendary Team 40 had VRC programs from 2004 on, but stopped their FRC program after 2010. They continue to participate in Vex.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

My old team is considering a full switch to Vex. Their primary motivation is that they can run 4-6 vex teams for the cost of a single FRC team which gets more of the 40 students involved in the nitty-gritty design. Additionally longer build season allows for a more relaxed pace. No bag and tag rules make it more attractive as well.

I'm not a huge fan of 100% Vex, but it makes sense from some perspectives.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

A few years ago, I spoke to an FRC school team's teacher/headmentor. They were participating in both FRC and VRC. He said he/they were going to drop FRC because:

• VRC made it much easier and cheaper for him to make all of his students members of teams in which every member is expected to make hands-on contributions to their team's STEM product.
• VRC made it possible for all members of a team to be intimately involved in their team's actual performance during competitions.
• In his location it was easy (and relatively cheap) for his several teams to participate in several nearby formal tournaments, off-season tournaments, and scrimmage events.

For his STEM robotics program (that I think was integrated at least semi-formally into his school's curriculum) he was asserting that he got more bang per buck per student, plus a few other upsides.

We agreed that he/they would be giving up on the flashy circus side of FRC tournaments (unless he took his students as spectators). His thoughts about that were that he was more than willing to live with the reduced flashiness of a typical, local VRC tournament, if what he got in exchange was being able to look across the fields and pits, and see all of his students driving or working on robots, instead of sitting in the stands watching a handful of their classmates doing that.

In my (limited) experience the folks who choose VRC over FRC usually aren't very interested in maximizing the complexity of the work a few team members do. They instead usually want to maximize the number of students who get a chance to try their hand at high school level STEM topics.

They focus on giving lots of students a good-enough taste of STEM topics, not on having a smaller number of students dive deeply into one complex problem.

Remember - It's not (supposed to be) about the robot. It's (supposed to be) about getting more students to give STEM a try, and for them to enjoy what happens when they do.

There is a place in the world for both programs. Each serves a purpose, and satisfies a need. There are definitely student who look for tougher (than FTC/VRC) challenges before they graduate high school. If the funds, mentors, and other prerequisites are in place, FRC is a great capstone to put on top of a solid VRC/FTC base.

Blake

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

All the programs have pro's and con's.

This year we had 5 FTC teams and 1 FRC team.

With the FTC change over to android and java this year, it was a real steep learning curve for my new to robotics kids. I am considering starting a VRC team next year for my new kids with zero robotics experience. The plus to VRC is a legit curriculum to help. The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX.

I really like the freedom FTC gives the teams to manufacture their own parts 3D print, CNC, welding, whatever means available. The kids learning these skills enable a FTC student to be more productive quicker to an FRC team. The minus is there just isn't very good resources to help teachers.

Both FTC and VEX allow for great iterational improvements, but they also play into high schools students biggest weakness, procrastination.

FRC is best at mentor to student interaction and working under pressure. The students actually get to work with professionals in the career field the student is interested in. To be successful you must have a dedicated group of mentors. You can get the mentors because you are only asking for 6 weeks from most of them. In my opinion FRC is the pentacle of high school robotics. I have seen some amazing VRC and FTC robots, but a top tier FRC robot is a thing of beauty.

The only students I have had that choose VEX or FTC instead of FRC just didn't have the time to dedicate to the team during build season. YMMV

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Long story short. Aiken County Robotics lost the funding needed and the leadership needed to run a FRC level team. Why they are quitting FTC too actually is somewhat intertwined with this discussion. Vex seems to have very effectively obliterated the opportunities for growth in FTC in SC. It's not necessarily a terrible thing, but a reality in my opinion nonetheless.

Aiken County Robotics did discover that Vex has become huge in SC since it got funded by Palmetto Partners like some 13 odd local events pre-state championship. It still amazes me because FTC still hasn't grown beyond 30 teams and 1 event in SC since maybe 2010?

Vex is now the most cost effective, and successful robotics competition in South Carolina, and soon if not already to be so in the world.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

2011 was their last year participating in FRC. A team from a smaller private school, their main sponsor provided them with a shop in another location. When that sponsor moved out of the area, they had no workplace suitable. They currently still work out of that school for the VEX stuff though. And Dan Larochelle is still involved with much of the VEX stuff that happens in the region.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

VRC does allow you to make custom parts, but for various reasons, they limit the type and amount of raw material you can use.

Making one or two crucial custom parts is possible. Making most of the bot from scratch, or from non-VEX COTS isn't possible (although you can cut and bend the stock VEX parts as much as you like).

About some of the other points you made, your "YMMV" ending is exactly right.

The way I like to look at things, just because you aren't forced to do something doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it.

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.

That flexibility to choose between simple and complex either in a single season and/or across seasons can be very liberating.

Blake

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

By having several curriculums written and mostly free of charge, VEX has a huge advantage over FTC (which is the real competitor). If FTC teams don't have a really dedicated mentor or students willing to really learn the systems that team is in trouble.

Where any teacher with a little bit of technical ability can teach based on the VEX curriculum and field a successful team.

FTC is missing the boat; they need a legit curriculum asap. From what I have seen a lot of the really successful FTC teams are home schooled. Which is parents and students wanting to learn. If FTC really wants into the public schools they need to help the teachers.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Running a few VRC teams sounds like a beautiful way to grow the infrastructure needed to run a successful FRC team, even if the FRC team perhaps only competes every second or third year to save money (and to save wear and tear on mentors).

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I agree, but real life plays a factor. Mentors have jobs and lives so the hours they can put in is limited.

Companies are attracted to the big robots. They are willing to let their employees take time to work on something that looks cool on the news and reflects well on the company. You have to have the right mentor and company to get that for FTC and VRC.

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

All the programs have a place depending on your program goals and resources.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

In year two, I can only start 4 more teams, but I'm up to 10 teams and sending 2 to worlds. In year two I'm looking at 50 roboteers 25 active parents

Which is the road to fail. Look at groups like the Downingtown VEXMen. 38 teams, 200+ roboteers, 70+ parents, 0 teachers. If I ask an adult who cares more about your child, me, you, the teacher, I get the parent. VEX isn't hard to learn I teach parents all the time. Parents can be mentors, you don't need 1000's of hours of experience.
In year three, we are holding our own events (saving 50 per event for 10 teams) and starting 4 more teams. So up to 14 teams, 70 roboteers, 35 active parents.

This year you are "limited" to 1 sheet 12x24 of polycarb. They are looking at letting teams 3D Print.

I don't see a limitation on the parts being a limitation, more of a design constraint. YMMV.

I like to say "Come to the dark side, we have cookies", but in reality, I don't try to take roboteers from FIRST to VEX. I often will send someone to a FLL or FTC team because they are closer or their school supports it. Over 95% of the possible roboteers are not in any program. I'm not going to go grab your pie, there is more pie than any of us could eat untouched.

All the programs have their pros and cons, figure out which one works for you, grab a few 1000 roboteers and GO!

It is not much more effort to run 2-5 teams as it is to run 1. So run more!

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

If anything I have posted has been taken as me promoting one vs the other I apologise. I'm just posting the pluses and minuses (as I see them) of both programs.

It is up to the individual programs to decide what is right for their goals.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I was wondering what happened to them since they were event finalists and event winners in 2011.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Put very simply, VEX is what FTC should have, and could have been.

This is one of those situations where FIRST should take a step back, re-evaluate FTC, and realize that VEX is a better program in many ways. Kill FTC, subsidize current FTC teams to move to VEX for one year, then partner with IFI to make VEX the cheaper alternative to FIRST around the world.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Again, I agree with your earlier "YMMV".

That said, I think it's a mistake (an understandable one, but a mistake nonetheless) to say that any STEM robotics program doesn't allow students to do any and all of the things you listed, or to say that any program limits activities to any particular period of a year.

All the programs I have ever heard about are officially delighted to be just a foundation for doing more than what they explicitly "require" or measure.

The advantage of the simple programs is that you can start small, and then go as far as your imagination and inspiration take you. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, you have to supply your own motivation

The advantage of the complex programs is that (if you have your ducks in a row), they "force" you to go far. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, a misstep or two can derail an entire season's efforts.

Blake

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

What's sad is that VEX is what FTC was. For those of you who don't know, the initial iteration of FTC (then FVC) had a lot in common with VRC as it is today. The departure from the mostly COTS robotics competition model in favor of "FRC-mini" custom parts oriented builds in FTC really is quite a shame.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

We choose to do both and throw in VexIQ and FLL while we're at it! Yes this is ambitious, but we've been growing and continue to grow each year and have a very supportive district. No need to pit FRC vs Vex... they have different strengths and weaknesses, figure out which fits your needs the best. So here's what we do and it is always a work in progress...

Freshman
Class: "Engineering and Manufacturing Technology" which has as it's fall semester project a Vex Robot for that years competition.
Vex Teams: 9 in 2015-2016 (only 8 competed)
Students: 42 this year
FRC component: (optional) about 1/3 choose to stay after school/weekends to do FRC.

Sophomore
Class: "Principles of Engineering & Robotics", class is more focused on Design, CAM, Programming, Arduino projects, and any simple FRC offseason projects.
Students: 18 this year
Vex component: Hosting the Vex tournament at our school and our local middle school.
VexIQ/FLL component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools.
FRC: Almost all students stay after school/weekends to do FRC

Junior/Senior Year:
Class: "Automation Engineering", capstone class focused on advanced projects with FRC theme, PLC programming, Advanced CAD/CAM
Students: 11 this year
Vex component: Host Vex Tournament and Mentor Vex teams at local middle school
VexIQ component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools. Host VexIQ/FLL event
FRC: All do FRC All the Time

Senior year:
Class: AP Comp Sci or Advanced Manufacturing (for 16-17)
Students: 2 this year
Vex component: Host Vex Tournament and Mentor Vex teams at local middle school
VexIQ component: Mentor VexIQ/FLL teams at local elementary schools. Host VexIQ/FLL event
FRC: FRC All the Time

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I would say that the proliferation of FRC mini robots in FTC stems from two factors: my experiences with the FTC kit make me think they probably never had a great kit to work with, and FTC in my opinion lacks an identity. What kids are we trying to reach? Middle schoolers, high schoolers, or both? Is it supposed to function as a bridge to FRC from FLL or is it a low cost FRC or a more involved FLL? Are we supposed to put FTC programs in schools that don't have any solid and consistent prospects for FRC? Is it supposed to be an intrasquad feeder for an FRC team? In trying to answer all of these questions, the program rarely adequately answers any of them.

I don't know if it's intentional or not, but the starter kit for VRC can rislistically play the VRC game for the year (at a low level). A new team can put that robot together and feel accomplishment but see where the design may not be their peak performer, so they can go back to the drawing board and order some more parts if they want to. I don't know what the FTC starter kit is but after seeing the design for res-q I would personally want it to be a revolver with 1 bullet.

FRC has an identity for FRC. Maneuvering from the larger powers in Manchester vs the actions of those that run FRC indicate to me that there is disagreement on the identity of FRC, but it is in some good hands. FLL has a great founding partner in the Lego group that has helped shape and maintain their identity. FTC didn't have that at all.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Sure they did; back when all of the parts were Vex, it was a pretty great kit!

The Vex robotics competition is amazing for how little it costs to compete. Whenever someone asks how to get their kids involved in robotics at a school with no team, Vex is usually my first suggestion.

There are lots of other robotics competitions out there as well that are just as fun as FIRST, but not as large of a budget drain. FRC is expensive.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

1678 has added Vex in the classroom setting as the basis for our "Intro to Robotics Engineering" class. This class was launched in the fall and we had over 100 new high school students across four periods in the class. The robust curriculum and engaging competition makes Vex an ideal program for the classroom setting. We will continue to use Vex as the basis for our high school intro class.

1678 is, for the first time, organizing 4-8 grade robotics summer camps in June. We are dropping our FLL support (after starting 23 teams!) and running Vex IQ at the summer camp. I am already impressed with the summer camp curriculum that Vex IQ offers, it is so simple the implement.

For our after-school elementary and junior high team, we are switching to Vex IQ starting now (parent meeting is June 3!). To ease the transition, we will likely buy kits for most or all of our existing FLL teams, and let them trade in their FLL kits which we will sell or donate to outside programs. The reasons to switch are many, but the main motivators are getting out of a broken NorCalFLL system and saving thousands of dollars in registration costs on a annual basis.

And, to be honest, if at some point we loose some critical teachers and/or mentors, I think the students on 1678 could be better served through 10-12 Vex Teams rather than 1 FRC team. We don't want to run both in the after school setting (rather, we are focusing on off-season projects and outreach efforts). However, without the solid mentor foundation we have, I believe our students would be better served building Vex robots.

When I look in my robotics education crystal ball, the future is Vex. It scales better, has far less financial overhead, and can be effectively run by organized parents out of a family living room. I don't know what the robotics landscape will look like in 10 years (#4champs?), but I would be willing to bet Vex is a huge part of that landscape.

-Mike

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Absolutely spot on!!

And it also applies to FRC. FIRST needs to make the value proposition for teachers, schools , and school systems tangible and measurable. Right now FRC and in many instances FTC are just add on activities that take place at the school. VRC is in the classroom, it is on the teachers desks, it makes students earn a grade.

FIRST needs to make teachers lives easier. Right now all it does is ask for teachers to just donate tons of time with no way to get anything back from their leadership in terms of career. I know this is a blanket statement and that many teachers have figured out a way to make money off of the time they put it, but for many, all they get is ata-boys from their principal.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I don't think this thread needs to generate into "mine is better" posts. But the thread subject is "quitting FRC for Vex" and reasons why teams might do so, so we will definitely be inviting comparisons between the two and evaluations of what you get for the money in each.

There are not many FRC teams to begin with in my city, and at least one of them has already converted fully to Vex, another has temporarily put their FRC program on hold and continuing with Vex, and another runs an FRC team but also runs Vex teams, and runs the local Vex kickoff and competition events at their school. I hope they'll continue with FRC as well, but if something has to get cut, you can see which it would be.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

1) The University of South Carolina offers scholarships to FRC and FTC participants. It would be a little peculiar for us to be doing an on-campus outreach program that wasn't aligned with that.

2) Our leading sponsors are invested heavily in the FIRST program. Such a radical departure in our program would surely trigger a review of that financial support, and likely the loss of it.

3) Our build space was originally structured for FRC, and we didn't intend to rock the boat by doing a different program. (FTC probably would've been a good fit for us, if we were starting from a clean sheet--but we had five years of FRC legacy on campus from 2815's time on campus.)

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

To answer this question I will refer back to the quote I took from Fusion_Clint:

and this one:

The programs give different experiences to the students. I heard someone once say that "FRC is not about robotics. FRC is a life experience that involves robotics". And when I look back on what FRC is doing for the students I work with, I think that "learning to build/program robots" is actually pretty low on the list. Our students are learning more about how to outreach and connect with the community, how to work on teams, how to work on imbalanced teams, how to work under pressure, how to communicate an idea, how to manage their time, how large projects are structured and how each person fits into that. It's much more like how the real world operates.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

My school used to do a combination of FTC, Vex, and FRC. FTC and Vex were done in the fall and you had to be on one of FTC or Vex teams to join the FRC team. However, after the 2013 season the school believed that FRC wasn't worth the expense and more students were participating in Vex and FTC than FRC because of the required cost to join the team. They dropped the FRC and FTC teams and started more Vex teams because that was the cheapest option. This forced me to move to a FRC team that was not a part of our school.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Looking at a lot of these posts, there seem to be four reasons teams leave FIRST and/or join VEX:

1. FTC's kit isn't very good
2. FTC's (and FRC's) curriculum for teachers is nonexistent
3. FRC is too resource-intensive (space, time, money, etc.), and
4. The team(s) doesn't have enough student participation, teacher/mentor support to do FRC, and the VEX platform is easier to manage

I also wouldn't be surprised if current FRC teams are leaving for VEX because the switch to 2Champs conflicts with VEX worlds, though this a (generally) much smaller factor.

How do we continue to grow the FIRST program? I think FIRST organizers and the community need to realize large changes and additions are needed to the FTC to make it comparable to VEX. They need the curriculum, they need a better kit, they need to be better organized, and, most importantly, they need an identity in the FIRST landscape. To do this, more money, emphasis, thought, and time needs to be invested in that program from a development level.

FIRST could easily ignore that problem and simply keep the program as it is. That would be a significant oversight and a travesty, but it's the easiest path. Partnering with VEX, rather than trying to compete with it, would also be a good idea, if at all possible.

In terms of FRC, the problems are less massive but still crucial. The program needs to become cheaper. I'll be honest, I'm not sure how you do that, other than just getting more sponsorship or lowering the flashiness of the events (not an issue IMO), but they need to find a way to change the $5k number to $4k, $3k, or lower. Otherwise, the cost will continue to push teams out the door rather than welcome them in.

Additionally, FRC needs to take the same approach VEX does with teachers: combine it with a curriculum that can be taught in the classroom. There are ways to do this, and it needs to happen soon.

It would also be a good idea for FIRST to support/start AndyMark/VEX-type operations or shipping warehouses in Europe and Asia, to help improve the costs and operations for international teams. The increased expenses for international teams is hindering that growth heavily.

Overall, I think Greying Jay said it well:

But VEX still has enough other benefits that it's changing the robotics landscape, much more than FIRST. Slowly, but more quickly by the day, FRC is losing it's place as the pinnacle of high school robotics to VEX. If we and the people who lead FIRST want FRC to stay at the highest level, then we have to make some critical changes.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Hey, thanks for the shout-out.

If it was possible to make FRC competitions cheaper, and increase the build season period from 6 weeks to something longer, it would lower the entry barrier for all those schools/groups who can't stomach the two largest factors about FRC - namely, how much it costs (and how much sponsorship/fundraising is needed) and how insanely busy it gets from January to April just to field a working robot.

(Our parent feedback from this year was essentially - "holy cow we didn't realize just how much Billy was going to be in for - it was worth it in the end but holy cow!")

I recognize it may not BE possible. It would definitely change the competition landscape. The calendar logistics aside, a longer build season would allow the rookies to actually get a robot done but then the 1114's and 254's of the world would have that much more time to build something amazing. It could lower the entry barrier but widen the competition gap, forcing the rookies to work that much harder anyway just to keep up.

In the end, I think there's definitely a place for both programs.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

There definitely is the space for both. As Blake said, 95% of roboteers aren't in either program. We've still got a large space to grow.

The "extend build season/no more bag day" argument has been talked about so much that :deadhorse:

If we want to start that discussion, there are plenty of other threads to do it. Let's try to avoid derailing this one.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

It is a distinct difference between the two programs, and mentor involvement and cost to teams are directly affected by this.

I also think that FRC is the technological pinnacle of high school robotics no one I've ever shown this to, especially an engineer, expects to find high school students doing anything this advanced. Like the comment one of our new mentors gave at the end of the season was: "this was more complex than my final project from college."

Another question for everyone: What do you think the purpose of FRC is other than what could be accomplished by another program? What does or could FRC do better than anything else?

PS I'm asking out of pure curiosity. I am completely invested in FRC and would only quit if it ceased to exist.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I agree with this, FRC robots are just amazing. There are some other programs like the Underwater competition that build some pretty amazing robots also.

I give the nod to FRC doing best is the complex tasks with a 120lb robot. This game brought out a lot of serious engineering to keep robots together for 2:30. The leap in vision from last year to this year was pretty amazing, I'd love to see next years game have a component that could be helped again by advanced vision systems.

I'd like to see FTC/VEX be allowed to use some of the smaller cameras as a off board vision system: Open MV programmed in Python

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

This line of reasoning continues to perplex me.
In VRC (and other programs), students are explicitly expected or encouraged to work with mentors to do:

• Video,
• Web Design,
• CAD,
• CAM,
• Machining,
• Welding,
• Journalism,
• Rapid Prototyping,
• Public Speaking,
• etc.

Where is the notion that they aren't supposed to do these things, or aren't rewarded if they do these things, coming from?

And, even if the program didn't encourage all of those activities (and more), why-o-why would anyone who wanted to do them feel that the program(s) in any way discouraged them from doing it?

It is possible in FRC to 100% avoid/ignore all of the activities in that list. It is possible in VRC (and other programs) to 100% embrace & enjoy all of those activities.

In my mind, FRC holds your hand (and pulls you) a bit more; while VRC opens the door (and invites you to walk through).

There is a difference, but nothing stops a group from using either program as a springboard and "going" as far as they like.

In some ways, because you can build, modify, and operate several simple VEX robots for the price of one FRC robot, experimenting with VEX robots opens more doors (cooperative behaviors, intramural contests, etc.) than experimenting with highly specialized FRC robots can open.

On the other hand, because FRC bots are bigger, they can enable some valuable real-world experiments and demos/attractions that a pure VRC bot (built from the VEX EDR parts used in VRC) can't.

Blake

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

VRC didn't exist in 2004. There was a pilot event at the 2005 FIRST Championship event, and a pilot season in 2005-06. What is now the VEX EDR system was at first a RadioShack exclusive, released sometime after the 2005 pilot event and before the next season.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

The edubot kit (which I'm pretty certain was the "protoype" of vex) was available in 2004, and maybe sooner.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

This sums it up perfectly.
Except, I would add that FIRST does have clues, but unwilling in certain areas where they could provide additional support for teams.
The fact that FIRST isnt as scalable as VEX compounds the situation.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Credits

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Got that in FTC. The phones have cameras and some teams were using them this season. Come to the light side, we too have cookies and a lot of scope for new stuff next season.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Are there grants available with the Vex program like there are with FRC? If not, then for our team I'm not sure that Vex wouldn't cost more.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Mark off "eliminate bag day"

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread mention it, but in Michigan, that identity for FTC is "middle school".

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

I think there are many things that VEX and FRC get right individually. I did both in high school and continue to mentor in FRC currently.

VRC is much better for many schools/organizations. As has been mentioned before, VRC is much cheaper for teams, and definitely doesn't have the same scare factor that FRC does in both time and money. From experience, VRC competitions are also much easier to manage and run than FRC competitions are. It is much easier for schools, students, and mentors to jump in and do well in VRC because VEX's building equipment is a lot more simple to put together for someone without experience than FRC is.

However, VRC just doesn't have the same wow factor in my opinion. Something that makes FRC the spectacle it is is the arena factor of the competition. FRC has much more of the sport feeling to it than VRC does, which feels much more like a hobbyist competition to me than FRC does. I think the six-week challenge for FRC teams makes it much more of an interesting challenge than VRC is, and in FRC you get much more difference in design than VRC due to the time teams have to work on the robot.

I know, personally, I would not want to continue in VRC because as a mentor, I just do not enjoy the competitions and challenge as much as I do the FRC challenge. Something about the six week build time and the size of the competitions just makes the time needed to compete well more worth it than what I experienced as a student in VRC.

Overall, I think the problem with FRC is that it is not easy to jump into as VRC is. Although I personally prefer FRC, I would suggest VRC as a robotics competition for a new school/team. I think if FRC wants to continue to grow and wants to continue to be more available, both funds and the learning curve to FRC needs to be addressed if it still wants to be the main high school robotics competition.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Team 1991 recently started a VEX team in our school to help get students involved. The FRC team is very time consuming and calls for long nights after school while the VEX team is totally student led and meets during our school's daily activity block. Since we have students from all over the state it is hard to get home from after school activities. Even though the program is young, many students are getting interested because it's easier to manage and most freshman did both to supplement their skills needed for FRC.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Yes, there are VEX grants. You can get these specifically from VEX's foundation as well as any number external grants and sponsorships. It works much like FRC in that respect (notwithstanding debates of flashiness to sponsors and necessary fundraising amounts).

http://www.roboticseducation.org/for...s/team-grants/

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

STEMRobotics has grants for Delaware Teams for both IQ and EDR. We have some out of state grants on a on a one off basis. We are happy to look at any proposal.

My FTC team (8375) that was just the Finalist Alliance Captain at worlds is a 9 person high school team where all of our members attend public school. We also have 0 mentors and are 100% student run. Not every decent ftc team is a bunch of homeschooled kids with their parents.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

1. I said a lot of the successful FTC teams are home schooled, not all.
2. No public school is going to allow nine students to work without adult supervision or to travel without an adult. FIRST requires at least two adults for every team. You must have mentors/teachers.
3. I said a team must have a dedicated mentor or students willing to really learn, you must have dedicated students.
4. Pointing out one possible exception does not invalidate anything I said.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Alright, sorry for dragging this back in from the depths of the forum, but I am struggling with a number of teams from my local area (Central MN). PLEASE DO NOT let this devolve into another MN Districts vs Regionals, this is not the place; go here instead.

Two teams in particular are looking at dropping FRC altogether and going VRC because they school admins think it is a better option. In reality, it may be so for some schools, but the two schools in particular have had strong FRC teams in the past. One of these teams reached out to me, and the other lost their lead mentor so the school is looking to shut down FRC.

The main concern I am hearing from these local teams is the lack of a regional in the St Cloud area - the cost of travel is hurting these teams. We are working diligently to bring a FRC Regional to SCSU in 2018, but those that have been involved in a Regional Planning Committee know the hurdles and struggles that are involved.

My concern is this: how do I help these teams argue/present information to maintain a FRC team while the schools continue to look deeper into the issue? I am hoping to provide some solid feedback to these teams that they can present to their local school boards, administrators, etc. I am looking for growth data, alumni feedback, mentor feedback, sponsor feedback, alumni tracking data, gaining sponsors, fundraising ideas, etc.

Just to give a little more background on the 'Minnesota Model', in 2012 the State High School League (MSHSL) which handles almost all of the activities and sports in MN created a sanctioned State Tournament. Along with the push for more STEM opportunities for students, this sanctioned State Tournament provided great interest and firepower for FRC in Minnesota. As schools started teams, they forgot a major part of FIRST - community and sponsor involvement. Now many of these solely 'school-sponsored' teams are finding it hard to commit to the cost of FRC.

It feels that Central MN teams are in a perfect storm. Without state funding (like MI has), and the relatively new VRC organization based out of a local Tech College, VRC is the next best option for schools to jump to so that they can still offer STEM without the cost. Please do not take this as a knock to VRC, it is not (I am in the process of starting at least 2 VRC teams from my classes for 2017-18).

However, after attending VRC competitions and teams, I do realize that there are major differences in the two. FRC operates more as a hard-lined engineering program that can act like a Varsity sport, VRC is more a great club competition (like off-season soccer or basketball) that can offer great STEM opportunities in a scaled down model.

If you have constructive information, please post or PM me.

Thanks,
-Coach Jurek

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

If you want resources on FRC impact, the FIRST website still has great material even if it is harder to find than in the past.
http://www.firstinspires.org/node/2521
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/impact
http://www.firstinspires.org/about/p...cs_competition

Probably the biggest thing the team that reached out for help can do is get sponsors and mentors. If the school sees they don't have to put in as much effort to run the team they are more likely to support it.

I'm going to be honest, if a team loses its lead mentor and is in a position where the school is considering shutting it down, it might be best for them to fold. That may sound harsh, but I will use my current team as an example.

2662 has never been a powerhouse in our region, but they were a decent team that focused more on community involvement than the robot, and were good enough to win a regional in 2011. Their lead coach was a teacher at the school and left after the 2013 season. Most of the team graduated that year as well. What followed was a collapse of the team as they had an awful 2014 season where they were essentially rookies again with a new lead teacher, mostly new students, and minimal mentor carryover. It was bad enough that when I joined in October 2014 they only had 5 students return from the 2014 season and had to get another new lead teacher since the previous lead did not want to go through another season in charge. They were rookies for the second year in a row. I brought enough FIRST experience with me that we were able to keep the team alive for 2015 and in 2016 we stabilized and had a solid year, but this last season is the first real productive season 2662 has had since losing their lead in 2013.

Losing a lead mentor or teacher is hard. If a team has a solid mentor base or student leadership they can step up to fill their shoes and figure out the new leaders to continue on. But if no one can fill that leadership hole and someone is thrown into it who is not prepared, the odds of success are not good. 2662's 2014 season was mostly a waste of our sponsors' money and our lead teacher's sanity, considering how few students were inspired enough to return to FIRST the next year. They would have been much better off doing VRC instead, and likely would have for 2015 if I had not taken over as the lead that year.

It sounds like this team is fairly dependent on their school for financial/mentor support, from your post. It's mid-October already, and if they don't have a solid leader in place now they are probably not going to be successful in FRC this year unless you can air drop in a few experienced mentors that can work with them full time. I'd strongly consider that it may make sense for them to go VRC until they are on solid ground. It is much easier for a student only team or inexperienced teacher led team to have inspiring success in VRC than FRC.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

Chief Hedgehog..

In terms of your main question, how to pitch this to school administration, you can probably make this argument: "We have a huge inventory of parts and such from past seasons. So we can manage this year with a little less funding. A base kit, a smaller traveling contingent." They might be impressed by short term belt tightening as they have to do it themselves often. Of course this is not a long term strategy and you should be up front with them. Paring the team down to an affordable size denies some students the chance to learn.

Intermediate range, consider inviting some of the admin types to actually attend a FIRST competition. It will be a serious eye opener.

Also, can you wean the Tech School off of Vex and get them on board with FRC? In pseudoretirement I have gone back to school at our local Tech and they are pretty fired up about FRC....

Our teams bumped into each other a little at North Star and I volunteered at Duluth so I know your set up a bit. Our team (Avis Automata 5826) is built on a radically different model. We work off school site. None of our mentors are teachers. We effectively do all of our own fund raising although the school does help with travel costs. We run a leaner budget but figure to be sustainable long term. I won't actually set foot inside the High School this season, but of course we do work collaboratively.

Support for FIRST in our school is sincere but when we ask for anything extra, even zero cost things, it rarely happens. Even asking tech ed and business teachers to suggest a few names for directed recruiting......crickets.

Fortunately we have a long running DIY robotics program in the middle school after school program. It's our farm club. We also run that largely independent of any official help. Works better that way actually...

Tim Wolter

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

It is totally a reasonable option for those teams to do Vex in 2017, and then return to FRC when the local regional pops up again. No harm in a gap year like that. I think I would make some attempt to sell them on the idea of a scaled back FRC season for the year, and if they don't bite, focus on getting them to actively plan to return to FRC in 2018 by fundraising, training, etc. during the Vex year. Maybe they can do just 2017 FRC offseasons this year if MN has enough of those.

There is some danger in burning out teams by having them stick to FRC when they don't really have the money or resources to do so. They can decide it's too much work, or it isn't worth it, if they aren't going into the competition with the right resources and they burn too much of their energy and money into surviving when they could have taken a gap year.

Re: Quitting FRC for Vex?
 

TLDR: In my opinion, without knowing the local motivations and resources, readers can only guess at the right answers to your question. Those answers are roughly as likely to be wrong as they are to be right.

In these situations, I am a fan of trying to ask the right question, before choosing among solutions.

And, to ask the right question(s), you have to know everyone's purpose(s)/goal(s).

Why should an FRC team or VRC team(s) exist at these locations? Why not both? Why either? What do the schools want to accomplish through either program? What do you want to accomplish? What do the existing team members/supporters want to accomplish? Peel the proverbial onions by asking "why?" until you have gotten to the roots of everyone's motivations.

Once the (often diverse) goals/motivations are all well-known and are put into a coherent picture, its *then* time to discuss with the people involved how they can best use the finite student-time, mentor/teacher-time, physical tools, software/computing tools, dollars, parent-time, feeder-programs, floor-space, etc. to accomplish (or consciously de-emphasize) *all* of them.

There are many, many inspiring ways to skin the cat of introducing many students to STEM topics and careers. Find out which seems best for these situations by pulling on the threads, and developing a complete plan/suggestion. Then, your arguments will have some traction and some buy-in.

Blake