![]() |
Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I am a team parent and I was very disappointed that during opening ceremony at Championship, the male winners of the Dean's List award received hand shakes and the female winners received hugs. I found this extremely disrespectful to the women and very unprofessional. I wrote to FIRST about it and received this completely unacceptable excuse:
"...What could not be seen on the screen or from the stands was that nearly all of the young women award winners approached the stage with jubilation and tears of joy. From that perspective, the response of these three caring gentlemen seemed appropriate..." I was actually in disbelief when I read this. The "caring gentlemen" were justified to comfort the emotional women by hugging them? Plenty of the young men I saw "approached the stage with jubilation," yet they were not hugged. I'm not sure what to do from here. I was hoping for a much better response like...Thanks for calling that to our attention, we will amend that policy immediately and treat all genders equally, since that is what we advocate for in our programs. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Unfortunately, I think you'll continue to be disappointed. FIRST has not done a great job of being as progressive and well-informed on this subject as one would expect given the way they advocate for introducing girls to STEM.
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
May I ask what you are wanting to come from this thread? There was a similar one about making women (and girls) feel welcome in STEM that got heated (for a lack of a better term). Can you specify what you want to discuss here so we can prevent that? |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Not seeing a real issue here... As a matter of fact, what is the issue here? Is it women not receiving equal treatment as men by receiving a hug while a male recieved a handshake? If that's the case I don't see it as an issue at all or treating women diffrient.
You look at this years WFA winner, a male, he recieved a hug from both men and women. I can remember multiple instances where a male has recieved a hug after winning a award. Now I dont have the video nor do I remember it as well as I'd like to but I believe the male recipient extended a hand giving body language of a handshake as the female had more of a hug body language. I'm sure if the male were to have more of a hug body language he would have gotten a hug and if the female winner extended a hand I'm sure she would have gotten a handshake and not just an automatic hug. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
In my family, I handshake my male relatives and hug my female relatives. My father was a very stand-offish person. He still never gives hugs. My mother was the opposite. So that's what I learned. I was absolutely shocked the first time my father-in-law hugged me. When I get together with my relatives, I give handshakes to the males and hug the females. When we're congratulating teams members, I handshake some, high five others, and hug still others.
Does that make me gender biased? I hardly think so, and I'll state flat out that I'm not. Part of always acting like your grandmother is watching is to not going looking for problems. A hug or a handshake, a high five or a back slap. I don't think these are really things we need to critique. If it affects you personally, then ask the person not to do it again. That's your personal space and you can expect that others will respect it. I'm sure someone is going to say that I'm glossing over something that is clearly an issue. But I think the idea of learning tolerance and acceptance to understand that other folks may not act exactly the way you do. Different people act in different ways. Different cultures treat hugging and handshaking very differently too. I'm not going to expect them to change either just because I prefer one over the other. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
I won Dean's List in 2014, and after reading this post I was trying to remember what we all had done. I know I (embarrassingly/frantically) shook hands with everyone on stage. I remembered all the others doing the same. So I looked up the awards ceremony from that year (https://youtu.be/ttBLdXXgxrc?t=36m41s) and turns out, it was pretty much hand shakes all around. I also looked up 2015, after the Dean's List Ceremony got moved to the big stage (https://youtu.be/RWoLpRCP7Iw). Here, Dean hugs everyone, while Don switches between hugs/high fives/hand shakes and Woodie switches between hand shakes/hugs. I think with most of the students and besides with Dean hugging everyone, most of the students initiated the hug/hand shake, but maybe others see something different. I couldn't find video for this year, and while I watched the ceremony, I can't recall exactly what happened. My closing point is that I think a lot of it has to do with how a person is, not necessarily what gender they present. Some people like hugs, some people don't, and the precedence of what is 'correct' on the stage, I think, changes from year to year based on the group, what the first person does, etc.. (That being said, as mentioned in many threads before, FIRST & STEM have problems with including/welcoming young women, definitely agree with you there.) |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Honestly?
I'm sorry, but I really don't see what the problem is here. Hugs or handshakes, how can either of those things be used in a discriminatory fashion? I simply hug or handshake based on what I/they feel comfortable with, not based on whether they're a woman or not. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Good grief...are we aiming to be the perfect PC organization or inspire young minds about STEM. Many things are different in this world - that's what makes it exciting. If everything were the same how boring would that be...
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Based on the video review above, I'm not sure this is a huge problem. In fact, I might have more of a problem with FIRST's response to the OP.
Quote:
Personally, I just don't hug very much at robotics. I think the last one was when one of our (male) Dean's List nominees moved on to the State Championship. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Curious which the OP thinks should be the standard?
I'm under the impression that the 'right' thing to do is, like many posters here before, to watch the body language of the recipient and then do what they're expecting. As a man of 50, I was taught that you don't extend to shake a lady's hand, at an introduction, instead you watch her and if she begins to put her hand out, then you shake. I've made my four daughters aware of this, so they will actually know what to expect from men my age in business. And yes, I believe the best bet, even today, is to watch the other person. Also, there are lots of different kinds of hugs. Let the other person decide. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Hi,
I donīt want to be disrespectful. I really donīt see any difference between hugs and handshakes. Actually I agree with the fact that the body language says what we should do at the moment I can guarantee to you there is no diference, Iīm Brazilian, I live in Brazil and we hug everybody, even who we donīt know yet. And there is no big deal on hugging or touching or handshaking, what matters is the accomplishment the person has achieved (Deanīs List for exemple) and the fact that this person in on stage, being recognized for the achievement, and being applauded for everybody. In my opinion that counts much more. Every year we face many problems with that, because MANY of you donīt like to be touched or hugged and that is something very unusual for us and it can make us very uncomfortable. As I said, I really donīt want to be disrespectful, jut want to contribute to the debate. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
![]() |
Clearly our society has an issue getting young women to enter and stay in STEM fields, so I appreciate the dialogue. However, on this issue, I simply do not believe this to be a negative message. Treating someone with respect by giving them a hug is not a problem. Let's keep our efforts to the true issues that keep young women from STEM.
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
One thing to keep in mind is: How did the winner approach the men? Did she strongly approach and put out her hand for a shake? Because if she did, it would have been met with a handshake.
All this Political Correctness is paralyzing our society. There is no definitive right and wrong because everyone has a different idea of what "right" and "wrong" is. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
The way Dean, Woodie and Don greeted the 2016 Dean's List Finalists irked my wife and I as well.
I'm not usually vocal around these topics, but when you greet 20 young professionals in a row, I believe a handshake is the baseline, acceptable way to convey appreciation and recognition. That said, some students may have an overwhelming sense of jubilation, which prompts them to initiate some sort of less-than-professional (but still authentic) expression such as a hug. That is great! The issue was, women got the default arms out for a hug from Dean, while men got the hand stretched out for a shake. Also, as a YPP trained professional, I work to avoid "frontal hugging", especially with young women, and especially with young women I do not know. I would certainly not be the one to intiate the hug in front of many other mentors and students. This is not your uncle hugging their niece. These are professionals congratulating young professionals on their accomplishments. It should be treated as such, and serve as a model to all the mentors and students watching the ceremony. -Mike |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
For me, if I greet a boy or man, it's not too hard to know if we are gonna hug or not. I am very comfortable hugging a man, especially if he is my friend. If the other person is a boy, girl, or woman, I wait to take their cue if the greeting will be a hug or not. It depends on the situation and relationship. I definitely should not expect or initiate a hug when greeting a female colleague. I agree that this is not a trivial issue. Andy B. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
It bothers me too. It happens with Male vs. Female VIPS/speakers as well. I don't think that it's any sort of intentional slight or conscious choice by Dean, Don or Woodie - but as others have said earlier in the thread, it's just the way they've been taught to interact throughout their lives. Not trying to make an excuse... the behavior should change. It may truly be something they've never even thought about. Another, entirely separate thing that bothers me is that it's all old (sorry guys, just tellin' it like it is) white men up there, and there's no diversity in the people who are giving out the award. To me, that emphasizes the divide even more. That horse has probably been beaten enough, but against the backdrop of 20 very diverse, outstanding student leaders across FIRST programs, it really stood out to me this year. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I noticed that female = hugs, male = handshake, and apparently many others did also. It didn't appear to be based on body language as many have indicated on this thread. From my viewpoint it gave me an uncomfortable feeling.
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I am not going to comment on the hugging thing.
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
However, that's not the topic at hand here - sorry for derailing. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
It was a humorous (to me at least) comment pointing out that the the person replying to Libby was clearly unaware of her relation (and knowledge of) to the people named. I've said some uncalled for things on chief, but this wasn't it. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think you're misreading Sperkowsky's post, and that led to a snapback that probably wasn't merited. It reads to me like a question about tokenism, which is a legitimate concern as groups try to be more welcoming of diverse groups. (As the Dean's List Award is given by the Kamen family, as it says on the certificates, FIRST would certainly have grounds to have Evelyn or Ruth or Libby on the stage which would at least break the old-white-men streak. That said, I also know their dance card gets full during Championship so I'm not going to lead that draft movement.) |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Your statement in my opinion was rude and uncalled for. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Oh my god please shut up about the tangent already. :rolleyes:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
You make a couple of great points. Inspiration, at least in the context of FIRST, requires us to be welcoming of people of all genders, races, etc. However, there's a line between sexism and social construct. In all likelihood, nobody on that stage meant their hugs or handshakes to be sexist. They meant them to congratulate these outstanding students. When you see someone you're about to shake hands with/high five/hug/whatever, you can tell what they're going to go for, and although you could go with whatever greeting is politically correct, it's going to be unnatural, sort of like the "high five/fist bump" moment that I'm sure many of us have experienced. If I were up there, I'd rather be focused on the students I'm congratulating for being awesome, not thinking "is it okay to hug this person?" If they want a handshake, I'll give them a handshake. If they want a hug, I'll give them a hug. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
you know, there's actually more complexity here than we're talking about regarding handshakes.
You've got your two-handed handshake, your touch-the-elbow handshake, your pat-on-the-back handshake and even the 'bro hug' with handshake in between you. Which of these are appropriate between old men and young ladies? Also with men shaking hands, it's always clear that we expect the webs of the thumbs to meet and to give a pretty good squeeze--some guys even to the point of hurting--but with women it's never clear. Don't want to hurt her, but don't want to snub her either. I've heard women given the advice to close before the thumb-webs meet so they can squeeze the fingers of the man and not get their hand crushed. Actually a good plan sometimes. But some people are offended by this --it wouldn't be acceptable between men. Another factor is the angle of the hand. If you've watched the Allan Pease TED talk about 'getting the upper hand" you'll realize that you show dominance/submissiveness by your hand position. You won't even realize you're doing it, but if you're trying to shake with you're hand on top, you're trying to dominate. Ref, recent hand battle between Carly Fiorina and Ted Cruz. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9WhadyyZ_E But in some cultures if the woman offers her hand, she may be expecting to get the back of it kissed. Not doing that here. So, yes, I'm glad that the leaders of first choose to congratulate people. However they choose, I'm glad I'm not deciding. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I think there are a few things here that merit discussion.
(1) Do you view the relationship between students and mentors as a professional relationship? (2) Do you view the relationship between students and sponsors as a professional relationship? (3) Do you believe that a hug is an appropriate gesture between two people in a professional relationship? (4) Do you believe that FIRST's response to concern about these topics, as raised by a team member, was appropriately professional? |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I think FIRST should for the most part be considered and treated as a professional environment. However, I don't feel it's necessary to always treat it as such and act like it is such.
Would I go around hugging everyone instead of giving them a handshake in a professional environment? No. In times of extreme happiness, excitement, jublance, sadness, grief, fear, or other emotional situations in a professional environment, would I hug them? Probably, if the persons body language expressed they were wanting a hug. However, I believe the assumed intention should always be a handshake in a professional environment and you should not just assume a hug. That brings up an interesting situation though. Who is it appropriate for to indicate intentions for a hug? The mentor? The student? Award recipient? Award presentor? A female? A male? |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Very Humorous. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Internet argument!!!
*checks bingo card* $@#$@#$@#$@#, it's a free space. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I haven't seen any hugs at work today. That is my stance on this issue.
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Edit: Thanks for all the points |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
In my mind FRC is more akin to a sports team than a work environment.
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Meta humor protects be getting criticism, yay!!! Summer CD is coming in hot and dangerous. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
![]() Credits |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I understand the dismay of seeing starkly different behavior divided along gender lines, even if it was unintended, especially when it involves personal space. I also understand that socialization and our gender biases play a huge role in our behavior.
Btw, we all have gender biases. If you think you don't, you are either an extraordinarily rare specimen or you are blind to your own (odds are very high on the later). It's ok. It's very difficult to be aware of automatic behavior and thinking. But be aware that there may be an aspect to who you are of which you are not cognizant. As for hugging vs handshakes, I'll leave it to this which I think nails it pretty well: http://www.mannersmentor.com/social-...reat-greetings |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
As one of the females who won the Dean's List award this year, I was not offended in any way by their behavior (hey, I got to hug Dean!) If I had wanted a handshake, I would have offered my hand. At States I shook hands with all of the judges except my mentor (who was a judge), who I hugged. Becoming a Finalist was a big deal and my mentor has helped me so much. It was an emotional time and maybe I'm just a hug kind of person.
At Worlds, winning was a complete surprise and there was a lot of emotion. Upon arriving at the stage I did not extend my hand for a handshake, and Dean gave me a big hug. This award is a big accomplishment and meeting Dean, Don, and Woodie was a first. While I can't speak for the other Dean's List Winners, I do look up to them a lot so I was completely ok with hugging them, actually I wanted to. Hugging is sometimes seen as a gesture of friendship. Point is, there is a lot of emotion when they announce your name, whether I received a hug or a handshake was not on my mind. I just didn't want to fall on the stairs in front of all those people ;) |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
This will sound silly:
As per the young person who receives the hug: should we just not work out and agree whether it is okay between the people involved. I mean spectators are entitled to their viewpoints but these are the special moments of these young people in that spotlight and it should be up to them...perhaps they do not want to even shake hands. It should also not be held against our founders they all happen to be white: I see no skin color bias in FRC. You can not hold back the whole of the organization hoping on diversity in these strategically unique positions. However FIRST could bring to the stage more contributors which also shows the growth of the organization. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
For myself, I understand as a spectator that it isn't possible to tell if anyone actually did ignore body language or guide the students differently, consciously or not. I make no accusations there, though it would behoove us all to keep it in mind. The official email on the other hand, is at best thoughtlessly worded and at worst entirely inappropriate. The logic that anyone should physically touch another person simply upon witnessing tears of joy, without mention of their own wishes, is ridiculous and unacceptable on many levels. Separately, I would suggest that FIRST reemphasize the need for reading personal choice and cultural perception for hugs/etc by officials with participants. This incident aside, I know I personally have been uncomfortable with unsolicited hugs from officials I do not know. I look forward to a mention of this in the respective section of our standard training next year. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
And Pat Zajak always holds the hands of the women as they move into position for the final puzzle.
Is it a gesture treating females differently? Yes. Is it a sexist gesture? I'd say absolutely not. But is it appropriate? I'm not sure given the semi-professional setting. But then, there's TSIMFD. (BINGO!) |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Being a 2014 dean's list winner, I would just like to say that the most important/inspirational/amazing part of winning this award is not the hug, handshake, or high five that you get from the people on stage.
I think it is great that Dean, Don, and Woody are there to help give out the dean's list award. I do not judge them or think any less of them because they hug some winners and not others. I hope that if I gave some winners hugs and others handshakes when I went on stage in 2014, no one judged me for it. There are many things that should be improved to help include girls in FIRST. But this particular instance is not something that deserves the worry and scrutiny it's getting. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
(and if you other people are going to insist on bingo cards then why isn't "it's spelled Woodie" not one of the spaces?) |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
I never noticed anything with regard to the handshake vs. hugs. Maybe its more of a cultural thing? In Hawaii, people show "aloha" and hug each other all the time.....at work, at events, professionals vs. professionals, etc. To each its own I guess, cant please everyone. Sorry for being ignorant on the topic, as I grew up on a tiny little island in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. :) |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
*assuming the people on stage were huggers, which we are taking as a given since they totally were |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I didn't see the Dean's List Ceremony in-person or on the webcast... But I do find it troubling that Dean, Woodie, and Don would have greeted all the young men with handshakes and all the young women with hugs. I'd prefer for them to standardize on handshakes all around... except for the young Dean's List Winner that is just hurrying up with outstretched arms when pretty much the only reaction could be to respond with a hug.
I very much agree with Mike, Andy, and Libby's comments below... some lines bolded for emphasis. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
These questions (particularly #1 and #3) got me thinking a little... a big distinction between hugging in a professional environment with co-workers and hugging in an FRC environment is that the former is generally peer interaction, whereas mentors in FRC are dealing with minors (and generally are more of an authority figure). |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
I didn't get to be a winner at world's but I was a finalist. I won in Pennsylvania for FTC. When I won at my state championship, I was rewarded with hugs and handshakes from mentors, volenetters, and peers alike. People who I barely knew from other teams where hugging me. It felt amazing, and I knew they appreciated what I had done for the state and my team.
I do belive that it is a little strange maybe even a little sexist (if that's even the right term) for all the females to be expected to hug an males expexted to just shake hands. Hugging and shaling hands is acceptable for both males and females. I don't belive that hugging is inappropriate or unprofessional when celebrating on any level. Often after an event when I'm saying goodbye to volunteers at an event we share in a hug (males and females) and on occasions go out to dinner together. FIRST is more then just a bunch of professionals. We are a family who care for one another and we build friendshis with adults and peers alike. A student can have an authority figure who they are friends with. *edit* - word choice |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
It's very sad that sexism go only one way. What you are referring to here is the new age definition of equality. Men have one expectation, and women another. See sexism is a term only applied to the unfair treatment of women. Here discussion is girls are being treated unfairly compared to males. Are they asking if hugs are harassment? I don't understand the upset regarding hugs. Is argument hugs are unprofessional? *Sorry for bad english* |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
*Side note: The admins can totally look up IPs on burner accounts, which are still not permitted by the CD rules. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
It seems like throwaway/burner accounts are becoming far too common now... I understand their use for posts seeking help in a (seemingly) toxic team situation, but other than that, I'd like for people to either 1) be willing to 'own' their opinion or situation, or 2) not post that, if it's really too controversial to attach to your name and team. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Its depends on thier tradition.
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Back to the OP - I understand the concern, but I believe that there is a backdrop to all of this.
As our collective culture is forever changing, there are going to be instances and situations where circumstances at very public events are viewed differently by many people. I think the handshakes/hugs are a part of this shift. However, as we have a community that is quite large and very diverse, there should not be a standard on how we show appreciation or emotion. Case in point - I am not a person that likes to share a 'hug'. I am a person that does not know how to show emotion in times of joy (which is part of the reason my Soccer team gave me the nickname of Hedgehog). I will say, before my involvement with FRC, I was not comfortable with "the hug". It wasn't until FRC 4607 won a regional back in 2013 that I actually may or may not have hugged another man that was not my family (but this is just a rumor until proven otherwise). This year, however, I think I have openly hugged more people that are not family than I am completely comfortable to admit at this point :eek: So back to the OP: let's not judge people or a community on how and when they show there emotion and gratitude. We are all still working through this strange congratulatory period between people that we admire and those that are receiving an award that acknowledges their hard work. |
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
|
Re: Hugs vs hand shakes at opening ceremony
Quote:
3) The rest of us can voice our opinion if we like or dislike these burner accounts by providing negative or positive reputation points. I will be giving out negative rep points for folks using burner and apparently duplicate accounts. Andy B. |
| All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:16. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi