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what was the best shooting mechanism for 2016?
During the build season we had a discussion about our way to shoot the boulders into the high goal. The main two mechanisms were(of course) a catapult and a wheeled shooter. Throughout the season I've seen some amazing teams that used both methods and reached an amazing consistency, but somehow I always thought that the catapult is much more consistent because it didn't had nothing to do with the condition of the boulder.
I was wondering if someone on CD have some data about the type of shooting mechanism that teams that were on Einstein had? I would be happy to hear what other people think? was the catapult more effective or was it the wheeled shooter? |
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The best shooting mechanism was the optimized one. Whether it had wheels, or a catapult wasn't the point.
I have seen extremely successful wheeled shooters and catapults as well as extremely unsuccessful wheeled and catapults. Its all in the execution. |
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This is just guessing, but the catapult could probably be unreliable sometimes if the springs got stretched out. The wheeled shooter is effective, but as you said it has much to do with the condition of the boulder. Also if the wheels don't spin fast enough (be a programming or mechanical issue) it won't shoot out as expected. "Its is all in the execution"
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I still say the linear puncher is the best mechanism (if done well). However, hooded flywheel shooters seemed to be the most successful.
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Both wheeled shooters and catapults were equal I feel, but the best wheeled shooter was the turret-style from 254, 179, and 5172. The best catapult was between 148 and 118. (Texans know catapults, I guess) The best "Other" shooter was from 3360 and their "mini catapult" inside their arm.
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I think my team should have done a catapult, and that more teams should have done catapults than wheeled shooters. It seems like double wheeled shooters were the easiest to get range and repeatability out of, and they did not suffer as many problems with the goal chains as backspin (one wheel) shooters seemed to, but both could be optimized. |
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Although there were many different successful shooter designs this year, I think the best ROI was in the hooded flywheel shooter, which was why it was so prevalent. Here's why:
1) Hooded flywheel shooters are space efficient over other wheeled shooters because they use less wheels, and if you design for it, the hood can pop down under the low bar (saw a few teams do this). 2) Hooded flywheel shooters are relatively easy to test/tune. Most catapult designs require mechanical tweaks to adjust power and speed. As long as your shooter wheels are overpowered, you can tune them down with encoders until you get the desired effect. 3) Hooded flywheel shooters put a backspin on your ball. Due to aerodynamics that I don't exactly understand, this means that the ball goes further, but it also means that if you hit the top of the goal, the ball has a high probability of rolling in. (hitting the top of the goal is far more common than the bottom because the robots are shooting up at the goal from below. 4) Hooded flywheel shooters are relatively easy to design. The only moving components are a single axle with wheels on it. No potential energy storing devices are necessary. Most teams have also tried this kind of shooter at some point in their history. 5) While both catapults and wheeled shooters can get worn down. Wheel wear is clearly visible, while springs or surgical tubing getting stretched is not as easy to spot.I'm not saying necessarily that hooded flywheel shooter is objectively the best (because each design has its own merits). I am saying that the hooded flywheel shooter gives the best ratio of time spent (designing, building, tuning) to effectiveness. |
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For my team this was the biggest challenge with our shooter - actually getting it to shoot far enough to make a shot from the outer works was difficult with just one mini-CIM on the shooter. We probably could have done it with two, but then packaging became an issue. |
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Crazy power output? check Fast as heck so I don't have to gear up? check I would also argue that the main reason that the two wheeled shooter is faster is because it has twice as many motors. If you really need the extra power Vex has you covered |
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I just realized the entire Carson division winning alliance had catapults.. Go catapults! :D
Anyway, I agree with most of the posts on this thread. It depends on the execution and implementation behind it. Whichever method of shooting you go with, find a way to implement it well and make it flexible. (for example, the ability to shoot from multiple positions from the field, outerworks, batter, etc.) |
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A two wheeled shooter contacts both sides of the ball at a certain tip speed, V. Both edges of the ball are being moved at the same speed, so the ball does not rotate at all, it is fired straight out of the shooter. The center of the ball therefore also moves at V. Now consider a hooded shooter. The flywheel rolls one edge of the ball forward at V, and the other side of the ball is rolling along the flywheel. Instantaneously, the tip velocity of the other side of the rolling ball is zero (or is it the other way around...) - so the velocity of the center of the ball is V/2. When the ball exits the shooter (is released from the constraints placed on each end of the ball) it'll travel at the speed the center of the ball is moving. Real world factors will make your result vary, but in general, all other things equal, hooded shooters do move balls half as fast (and half as far) as two wheeled shooters. This is not due to having fewer motors - tons of teams put more than one motor on a ball. This is just due to the dynamics of a ball rolling through a shooter. A 775pro's power is greater than a mini-CIM, yes, but there are also good reasons not to spin your flywheel at 19,000 RPM, and tip speed is far from the only factor that determines how far your ball will fly. You probably end up gearing the 775 down to a speed closer to the mini-CIM, but with more power, which would probably reach a greater distance yeah. Too bad you can't buy those right now... |
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Between 148 and 118, I'd have to say 148 - they scored 12 balls in one match (with 1678 putting up ten more) for the "most balls scored" in the 270 point match during Hoppers divisional eliminations. But kudos to both Texas teams for showing us how catapults should be done. |
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I feel that "best" is relative to what you value the most. For our team accuracy is the most important over distance, and speed. If you are going to take a shot make it count otherwise you spend more time chasing it down.
We did a two wheeled shooter in 2012 and actually found it to be much less accurate than the single wheel shooters. We thought that going with high speed motors on both sides of the ball would give us more range and having two wheels would make it more consistent but we were wrong. What we ultimately found out was that there is better energy transfer between the wheel and the ball when you give it a curved track to allow the mass to get up the wheel's spinning velocity. Because of this it was more consistent and seemed to go further even with less powerful motors. Ours just kinda burned out on the ball because we were taking something that is not moving at all and all of a sudden trying to get it up to full speed. This varied based on how well the wheels gripped the ball which changed as the wheels got dirty or the balls varied. Echoing the previous comments I think execution is key and that any design can be successful as long as the time is put in to remove inefficiencies and variability. |
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Regardless of type of shooter, there were patterns of thought process that lead teams to consistent, optimized shooting mechanisms.
Every consistent shooter had an optimized shot trajectory. There were two different camps here. One camp set the peak of their shot's parabola at the top of the goal, taking advantage of the vertical goal to maximize the sweet spot of their shot. In fact, many teams had a single, workable shot from the outworks all the way to right in front of the batter. The other camp, including teams like 971 and 987, were able to adjust their shot angle using vision targeting. This camp then used flat shot trajectories, decreasing the impact of exit velocity consistency on shot accuracy. Additionally, many teams in both camps maximized their release height in order to circumvent the threat of blockers and further maximize their trajectory's sweet spot. The next variable that posed a threat to consistency was ball variation. As balls were used on the field they became more compressible. Catapults elegantly avoided this variable by never compressing the ball. For the flywheel shooters, minimizing compression also decreased energy transferred to the ball. Thus, competitive flywheel shooters counteracted this with higher wheel surface velocities, more power, and larger contact patches on their wheels. Flywheel shooters also relied on sensor feedback in order to accurately control their wheel velocity. While my team did not extensively prototype the two wheel shooter design, I would also conjecture that the single wheel designs were more consistent because they had less variables to control. Catapults on the other hand still had a slew of problems to contend with in order to get consistent exit velocities. Pneumatic catapults had to deal with airflow, limited by their solenoids, regulators, pneumatic tubing, and fittings. From talking with some pneumatic catapult teams, I heard that many used high-flow solenoids in conjunction with air tanks after the regulator. Spring powered catapults had to deal with spring wear and consistent release/pull-back points. My team ended up finding success with high-quality extension springs. Lastly, alignment time was critical in this game, given that teams could only hold one ball. Both camera and flashlight alignment was proliferate, and some teams used turrets to great success, which could align fast and accurately. |
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I liked 125's catapult. It was integrated into their utility arm, so it was able to shoot from very high up. That paired with its ability to shoot from anywhere on the field made it very difficult to defend against.
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Why don't we do something similar and look at all the captain and first selections that made Einstein- not necessarily representative of the best, but pretty close.
Hooded Single Flywheel Shooters:
This data could be the way it is for multiple reasons.
9/16 of these teams had inarguably high release points. 5/16 couldn't go under the low bar as a result of that. These teams prioritized certain objectives, and met them 100%. It's obvious when looking at 1678 and 1690's designs that they anticipated needed a high release point, but also needed to be able to get a solo breach. They have the resources to execute that at 100%, so they did. Other awesome teams on Einstein had other priorities above high release point. 2122 showed up at their first regional just making low goals. They then improved by adding a climber and then eventually their extremely accurate high goal shot. They did, however, shoot from almost the ground. 1986 had a catapult, which allowed for a relatively high release point that would get over most blockers while still going under the low bar. 217, 3476, and 1501 eschewed the low bar in favor of a harder to block shot and a climber. The type of shooter you choose isn't about which is objectively "the best", but rather which one fits your priorities and resources the best. |
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Again, it is obvious that we can't define what is the "best" type of shooter, this disscusion was ment mostly for sharing data and experience about the types that were used by different teams. |
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when we were looking at shoots we looked at wheels but the problem with that is ramp up time. Catapults are wishy washy. So a liner punch seemed like the best design for consistent shots. But most teams had wheels.
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Now there are ways to make each of these methods shoot from multiple positions, and also ways to make your trajectory flat enough to shoot from a ton of different locations with the same shot. I'd love to hear about how some of the best catapult teams made their catapults work this year. |
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http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...9&postcount=47 |
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![]() The arm is nearly the length of the robot and pivots on the front frame rail. It's driven by 2 mini-CIMs through a toughbox mini and #25 chain with an overall ratio of 28:1. We have an incremental encoder on the gearbox so we know how far its traveled is each 20mS control loop. I don't remember the exact weight of the catapult arm but it is extremely light. The arm itself is 1.25" square, 0.040" wall thickness 7075 tubing that came out of a sponsor's dumpster. The "dish" the boulder rests in is carbon fiber. The block of pink foam on the arm was added after week 3 and reduced the boulder settling time substantially. |
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The best Shooting mechanism was 971 Spartans shooter would retract and it had probably the vison tracking. Don't teams like 16, 1678, 1538, and others who had good rotational platform which made them "UNBLOCKABLE".:ahh:
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While we may not be able to compete with teams like 254 or 971 in shooter design, we at 2877 are proud of our Pnuematically fired rolling catapault.
Our biggest innovation was the placement of servos on the end of the shooter tips. Combined with vision code, this gave us the ability to precisely control the distance and arc of the shot. As our vision code evolved, we came to the realization that by putting the servos at different angles we could aim the ball to the left or right which reduced our time to shoot greatly. Attachment 20786 Attachment 20787 Attachment 20788 Attachment 20789 |
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Most of the boulders I saw used on the fields were in like new condition. If a boulder got a big tear or rip during a match they would replace it with a new one. I don't think one is better then the other, I think its more of what works best with your team. I think one of the reasons we chose a wheeled shooter this year was because we have done them before and have experience on how to tweak and adjust them.
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At WPI, our first district event, it was taking us around 6-7 seconds to line up and shoot(Our robot is on the blue alliance shooting at the center goal) At our next event, BU, it was in the 3-5 range(robot on blue alliance shooting into near goal) At NEDCMP, our final event, with the "Differential Flaps" fully implemented, it was 1-3 seconds depending on how close our angle was before we let the robot take over. Our robot is the robot nearest to the center goal We won Innovation in Control at BU and NEDCMP |
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Overall, our season ended in a slightly disappointing fashion, as we were ultimately brought down by our tread failure, and missed out on a trip to Saint Louis. Overall the season was great, but it was somewhat disheartening to think about how good our robot could of been with a better drivebase. We are in the process of improving the drivetrain and hope to be playing at our peak at BattleCry this weekend. I suspect our programming team will write up a whitepaper detailing everything about our code and vision tracking for anyone interesting in the nitty-gritty detail |
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I've been thinking about this thread again, and I decided to analyze IRI this time as a sampling of the best teams in the world ought to produce the best shooters as well, right?
IRI had:
![]() This data could mean absolutely nothing, and the shooters at IRI could be happenstance and good teams just happened to draw their inspiration from 2012 robots or something. Or maybe not. I think the most interesting numbers are the comparison between the first row and the third row. Despite being the largest group of robots at IRI, single flywheel machines were over-represented in eliminations, while the next three largest blocks(Catapult, Double Flywheel, None) were all underrepresented in eliminations. The middle row also represents that, with more than 50% of all single flywheel teams at IRI making eliminations. Knowing this information (and also my experience in the past with some very finnicky double flywheel shooters and catapults), I would use a single flywheel shooter in a similarly styled shooting game in the future (although God knows I'm going to eat these words when I want to pursue some other shooter a few years from now and my students do some research and find this post). |
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Basically, two horizontal rows, each with four four inch colsons, opposite from quarter inch polycarb, with about 2 inches of compression. Personally, I most enjoyed watching (and listening to) the linear puncher shooters. However, different shooters entail different constraints and/or requirements, and can all yield great results when well optimized. |
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Winning Alliance 2056 - Single Flywheel 118 - Catapult 33 - Single Flywheel 4587 - Catapult Finalist Alliance 1114 - Single Flywheel 195 - Catapult 225 - Dual Wheel 1405 - Defender Semi Finalist 1 1619 - 1619 Style 1241 - Single Flywheel 133 - Catapult 868 - Single Flywheel Semi Finalist 2 3620 - Single Flywheel 67 - Single Flywheel 3683- Low Goal 5254 - Dual Wheel Quarterfinalists 1 2771 - Single Flywheel 16 - Single Flywheel 1024 - Catapult 1023 - Single Flywheel Quarterfinalists 2 217 - Single Flywheel 2451 - Catapult 494 - Single Flywheel 3641 - Dual Wheel Quarterfinalists 3 2481 - Single Flywheel 330 - Linear Punch 3824 - Dual Wheel 1640 - Catapult Quarterfinalists 4 45 - Catapult 179 - Single Flywheel 1806 - Linear Punch 233 - Low Goal I am probably wrong somewhere in this list so if you see something wrong just PM me and Ill edit it. |
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Analyzing how many of each type of shooter there was is similar to counting how many presidential candidates have blue eyes. The quantities of each might represent what teams initially perceived would serve them the best, but that decision making process was full of other variables like packaging, previous experience, and fabrication difficulty.
If you want to determine which was superior, then you need to determine what metrics you believe are important to the shooter and measure them. % shots made would be a decent start. |
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Best Shooting mechanism of 2016: Robonauts Grappling Hook
'Nuff Said |
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Having previous experience with hooded shooters (2012) and linear punch shooters (2014) we considered both before settling on a catapult design. Given the packaging constraints imposed by our desire to hang, be low bar capable and retain low and high goal scoring, our small spring catapult emerged as the best solution for us. Additionally, our picker design permitted us to quickly move the ball from low goal scoring position to catapult and back again if required by defense robots. In terms of accuracy, on Carson through Einstein high goal accuracy was 79%. With respect to our low release point and its vulnerability to blockers, we experienced 2 blocked high goal shots out of 80 taken in teleop throughout CMP's. |
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I'd classify it closer to a single wheeled rotary shooter than a double flywheel shooter. It's using flywheel(s) on one side to roll ball against a stationary wall and has a good deal of travel on the ball. A double wheeled shooter reacts off both wheels at once and doesn't have as much travel time on the ball. |
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