Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

We have been looking at Laguna IQ. Anybody have one, or a better one? Help!

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

What are you cutting and what is your budget?

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

aluminum 1/8" and 1/4" plate have 14K but was looking to spend as little as possible without giving up precision

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

A couple teams (1678, 3476, 364) mentioned they've gotten this router within the past few years. From what I can tell, they all absolutely love it.

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!vr-5050-4-x-4/c23m8

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

The Laguna looks like it can handle aluminum really easily with their bench top model. I'm impressed. https://youtu.be/OEpApUx6JeU

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Our VeloxCNC leaves a much nicer finish with the cheaper spindle option and a less stiff table surface and can handle aluminum just as well as that if not better. For 14k you can REALLY deck out your options on the 50"x50" model.

EDIT: we have machined 1/2" plate, made #25 chain sprockets in aluminum and delrin, #35 chain sprockets from 7075.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

This is leaving a pretty awful finish on the aluminum. The dimensional accuracy of the part can't be great with that much cutter deflection.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I agree, that's probably the reason they aren't playing the sound of it machining during the heavy cuts.

Check these out http://www.veloxcnc.com/vr5050x_cnc_..._x_4.asp#video

We have been able to push ours much harder than most of those videos show.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Is the Velox model liquid cooled like the Laguna.
Also Laguna has a repeatability of .002 and the Velox.001

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I really don't like how the ball screw is being retained on one side by just the flex coupler on the end of a stepper motor. It could be fully supported on the other end but it really should have a floating bearing block. It doesn't speak well for the quality of the rest of the machine.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Going to drop this here:

http://www.shopbottools.com

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Surface finish like that isn't good enough for FRC use? Seriously?

No, it looks like it uses a Porter Cable Spindle. Though I assume the spindle can be changed out.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Yes, seriously.

That surface finish is so bad it looks measurable to .010 or so.

It definitely isn't holding .002" for diameter and location of bearing bores.

If you don't want to make any power transmission plates, it'd be okay. But not much more money gets you 10x the machine.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I believe you can get the Velox with a water cooled spindle, but it's way overkill. You would have to be running the machine like a production shop before it would be worth considering. Only thing it really makes easier is changing spindle speeds with the G-code and overrides from the Mach3 controller program.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Is this Velox router any good?

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!36w/c1xeg

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Yes, but I suggest upgrading from the router to a spindle so that you can adjust the speed of your cutting tool.

Also it depends on the table you mount (not place) it on, make or buy a real sturdy table and it will be fine.

We absolutely love our VR50X50 with the HSD 3 HP spindle.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I'd disagree. The water cooled spindle has less run out than the router. When your working with small end mills at a high RPM it can make a big difference with how fast your feeds are and tool wear. I've run machines with both and I definitely prefer the proper spindle.

Edit: The water cooled spindles are also much much quieter.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

How does that compare to a non-water cooled spindle like the HSD 3HP we have?

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Same goes for the HSD, generally any spindle designed for CNC machining with a ER collet will be superior to a re purposed wood router.

We also have a fan cooled HSD spindle on our router that I love.

If your buying a spindle I'd highly recommend getting one that's water cooled or uses a fan that's not coupled directly to the spindle motor(HSD's are usually setup like this). They are waaay quieter.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I agree with Devin, you can do a lot with the velox router. We have the same Velox and love it. We don't have access to a 220 volt line so hence the router. If you don't have the money for the spindle or adding an new 220 volt line, don't sweat it, the router will do fine.

If we ever get enough space, maybe a second one with a spindle will be what we get but for now, we are very happy with our purchase.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

865 has a 60x60 XZero Demon CNC Router with a HSD spindle.
Here's a video of it in action

All in it was about $10k CDN which was a killer deal considering the quality.


Some advantages of it over the Velox and other CNC routers near its price point (and things to look out for when buying a CNC router):

Ballscrews - The Velox has ACME screws that are inferior in every way besides cost. It's not uncommon to lose over 50% of your stepper motor's power due to friction when using acme screws. The anti backlash nuts also wear quickly and become imprecise.

Linear guideways - Most budget CNC's use circular linear rails which are significantly less rigid. I'd stay away from any machine using bushing on it's linear rails.

A "real" spindle - The re purposed wood routers on many CNC's were not designed for CNC machining and may have a large amount of runout. While they may be equipped with speed control they quickly loose torque at lower RPM's.

That's not to say that the Velox and other budget CNCs are bad. The Velox looks like an awesome out of the box option for teams. It took us a whole season just to get our CNC setup and it's still not 100% done. In my opinion the most important part of any CNC machine is having someone who knows how to operate it. Things like fixturing, CAM, feeds and speeds can be difficult to learn. Our team has access to 5 CNC machines (2 mills, 2 routers, 1 lathe) and we still rely on laser cutting sponsors to do the majority of our machining due to a limited amount of experienced CNC machinists and time constraints.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

You can purchase VFD's the convert single phase 110v to 3 phase 220v like this one

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

While generally yes a normal router has more runout, Velox has a special spindle collet(looks like an ER collet) that eliminates most of the runout issues. It is louder and the torque can be an issue, I will agree with that. If you really want a proper spindle, buy one from China for 200-300 dollars separate from who you get the machine from(we will probably be doing this for next year).

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

We are evaluating that question right now. Its the repeat ability we are looking into between the two machines and the face that one weighs more and may be more rigid resulting in better accuracy.....

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Also ShopBot is good to consider.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Which one, specifically?

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

987 has used a shopbot bt-32 (the cheap one!) since 2013. Its great for fast prototypes in aluminum, MDF and plastic. As far as accuracy goes, it is not accurate enough to make transmissions and gearboxes, but can make anything that can take a tolerance of 0.010". A part that would take all day on a 3d printer, can be made in a few minutes on a shopbot and will be much stronger. Ours has a standard wood router spindle, which has been able to cut 1" aluminum, but I would recommend keeping it under 1/4" for most aluminum parts. We have had success with plastics and wood up to 3" thick.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

PRStandard with HSD spindle is around the sub-$15k range.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I am helping Falcon robotics through the machine selection process.

Can the owners of both the velox and the Laguna, share with us the "typical" repeatability and accuracy that you have been able to get from your machines. i.e. have you put a dial indicator on the machine and tried to return to a point with each axis? How close can you get when you return?

Is anyone making aluminum transmission side plates with their CNC router. what kind of bearing hole diameter tolerance are you holding? How about center to center hole tolerances over say a 3" to 6" span.

What is the linear bearing rail diameter on both Laguna and velox on X and Y axis. This could help rationalize machine stiffness questions.

The 2 x 3 Laguna at 425 lbs with ball screws and water cooled spindle claims 0.002" repeatability.

The 4 x 4 Velox at 300 lbs with lead screws and router head claims 0.001" repeatability.

Would you not expect the repeatability to be better on the Laguna?

Velox will not share typical repeatability test results. I have not asked Laguna yet for repeatability data.

Also found out that Velox uses 2 NEMA 34 950 oz-in steppers for lower axis (Y) and single NEMA 34 on X axis. Velox uses 400 oz-in NEMA 23 on z axis.

Laguna uses single NEMA 23 on each of the 3 axis.

So Velox seems better on the motor torque and resultant effective stiffness in the drive train. Laguna has more mass and possibly structural stiffness. Why is the Velox repeatabilty claim twice as good.

Looking forward to data from anyone that has tested their machine.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Thanks Frank! Yes if anyone can answer Franks questions that would be great!

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Because the Velox machine is built with good materials and good design to make it very stiff. Weight does not always = rigidity. The router I have at work I can grab the gantry and get it to visibly oscillate, can't make the Velox budge.

While I do not currently have tests to detail for you I will say that greater than 75% or our robot this year was created on the Velox router. Every single custom gearbox was made with it, the holes are not 100% perfectly round but are unlikely to with any router so we post ream all the bearing holes. Over 20 gearbox plates easy. Any tolerance issues we have had with it have been almost always user error and not the machine. We also made chain sprockets that if they are even off by a thou are terrible at meshing, worked fine every time(something the Haas vertical mill I have at work hasn't lived up to even).

As a side note, while I was picking ours up at their shop they told me that some clients had even managed to pull off machining stainless steel. That is nuts that they managed to do that with any router.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

If you can make sprockets on a router but not on a Haas, something is very wrong with your setup or process on the Haas. I highly doubt it's the machine.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I meant to say that the Hass has not had a 100% success rate(works basically every time), not that it can't do it. Part of the issue there is to make a #25 chain sprocket you need to use a 1/8" endmill or smaller and the max spindle speed on the Hass is 7500 rpm when I should be running said endmill at 15000 rpm. So you have to turn the feed down. Also our 1/8" endmill is set in it's tool holder with just over 1" of stickout for clearance reasons with the parts we make and tool deflection doesn't help.

Enough of my rambling.

My point is your results with any machine are driven primarily by 2 factors. First is how well constructed you machine is. Second is how you use it. You can use a lesser machine to make the same part with comparable quality but it will take longer, more work, and have a higher chance of failure while doing so.

If I had to pick between a brand new VMC CNC with all the features and a VeloxCNC Router with all the options and both were free, I would pick the router every single time.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

What are your typical cut parameters in aluminum? What size tool, speeds and feeds, width, depth? Im very curious now.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I would suggest:

Get a split point drill smaller than 1/8" and peck drill around the perimeter leaving a margin smaller than 1/16" for the final break out. Drill straight down so deflection is less an issue. Then when you cut out you'll have less material to engage the end mill dragging it in different vectors as you cut the sprocket parallel to the machine deck.

This could be a little complicated to setup in CAM software. I would suggest doing the drill pass as one operation, then I assume your Haas has an ATC, change for the end mills and complete the cut out.

Also there are Haas spindles faster than 7,500RPM. The price you pay for ignoring the speeds and feeds is really the tool life and as the tool wears you pay for that in quality of cut. Disengaging the some of the cutter would likely increase the tool life at a less than perfect feed and speed.

Best of luck with it - I am sure this operation is within the capability of whatever Haas you have I've done it before.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

We like our 4mm single flutes at 21-24k rpm feeding in aluminum at 45-60 ipm full WOC and a DOC of 0.060"-0.100". We run a super fine mist of WD-40 as coolant so the sacrifice board won't swell.

I uploaded some videos just now to YouTube https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...xLLzZmv6MFiAnF

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Do you see any flex in the gantry when plunging, especially with the drill? How much did you end up spending on the router? I'm extremely impressed just by the footage you took.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I want to mention that the videos are typical of the performance we have observed. I have pushed it far harder than that, but I have to keep my fingers at the controls and jockey the feeds at least until I find somewhere that it likes.

The gantry is absolutely solid, no flex. The Z-axis head and spindle does flex away from the gantry under heavy axial load, a result of the head geometry common to almost all routers. Because the head is cantilevered off the gantry it has a good amount of mechanical advantage to cause deflection, due to the spindle axis being offset from the X-axis linear guides. It's only really been an issue for us when drilling larger than 3/16" holes because of the force required to pull a good chip is a little much for it. The problem goes away when you do a lot of peck drilling or pre-drill the holes with something smaller first. We solved the issue by just using a smaller than 0.250" endmill and helical boring any hole size over 0.1875", which has the happy side effect of one less tool change. For gearboxes and the like we bore the bearing holes 5-15 thousandths under size and post-ream them on our drill press to get the perfect fit.

We spent $6,000 on it but only because we knew which options that we could skip and do ourselves cheaper, what we picked up from Velox wasn't exactly ready to plug and play.

We dropped the following features
No table top surface -$649 (Surfaced ours with extrusion from my work's old router table)
No CAD software -$189
Supplied our own computer -$725
No dust hood -$315
No table legs -$1695
I drove down on a business trip and picked it up on the way back, so shipping was free. -$625
What we did get was as follows
Vectric Cut2D Pro for CAM +$450 (highly recommended, dirt simple to learn and use)
Mach3 License +$210
3.5HP Porter Cable router for spindle Default
1/2" Precision Collet +$100
4-Axis Smooth Step Default
Quick Manual Tool Change tool holders x3 +$260 (Lets you run as if you had a tool changer with pre-zeroed tools)
5% Educational Discount
5% Promotional Discount (for asking them nicely to sponsor us)

The reason we worked to bring the cost down so hard was because we got a 6000 dollar grant for buying a CNC router. I would have liked the Velox table extrusions and the proper spindle, but I was fine for the listed reason and I knew I could buy a spindle from China for about a tenth the price.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

This would be great, do you have a link to them?

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

http://www.veloxcncrouters.com/#!pro...c-(tool-qmtc-3)

Or the super cheap option
http://www.amazon.com/Lather-Milling...rds=er16+chuck
downside is that it's a 12mm shank and not 1/2", you just need to cut/grind the shank down to a usable length. I haven't found a 1/2" shank for ER collets that was under $80 but 12mm shank is under $13, it's really weird.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Now this post is interesting. Where can you buy the cheaper Chinese spindle?
I'm pretty sure I might go the Velox route.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I noticed this on their website too, but is it mandatory to send a computer to their shop in order to install software?

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Robochair,

What tolernaces (in aluminum) are you achieving with your velox setup?
Have you benchmarked your machine for accuracy or repeatability?
i.e. using an indicator , have it return to a reference surface in each of the 3 axis.

Does your CAM or controller allow you to map your lead screw to enhance accuracy? If so, how many points will it allow?
Did you have to adjust scale in any of the 3 axis after you set up the machine?
One or 2 lead screws to move the gantry (low axis) ?
Do the anti backlash nut assemblies require maintenance or periodic adjustment?
Also, which model and size Velox did you buy for $6k?

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

Youtube's video stabilization makes it looks like you have a 5th axis. :P
Question: is it common practice to conventional mill instead of climb mill on routers, and why if so? It looks like you are conventional milling that video.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

At FRC1540 we are just in love with our Shopbot Buddy. Ours is a 2' x 4' version. It handles aluminum and plastic with nary a hiccup.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

The side of the gussets is being climb milled, while the side of the scrap piece that's being tabbed is conventional milled. At least I think the pieces being tabbed are scrap because there are no holes in them and none of the corners are rounded.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

I've found that I get a bit better surface finish with conventional milling over climb on a router. Deflection during conventional milling tends to be parallel to the cut rather than perpendicular when climb milling so it doesn't affect the accuracy as much and lessens the chatter marks.

Re: Need a good table top scrolling CNC!
 

eBay, just search CNC router spindle

No, but it does mean what you receive will have been tested as working at their shop before it leaves. They ran into issues installing on our an we had to set it up ourselves at our shop, would not recommend do it unless you have someone really familiar with networking and CNC setup.

It makes gearboxes every time so I never felt the need to measure it out, but for sure under 2 thou when done with a finishing pass.
+- 1 or 2 thou, we operate the machine off of a work coordinate system saved in the machine. So that repeatability is based off the zeroing to the sensor switches, the machine is tighter than that.
Yes it does, but the leadscrew nuts are all backlash compensating anyway there is no need to tune the settings to avoid backlash.
No we did not.
Yes the Y-axis has 2 screws and can be zeroed to the switches separately while unpowered to square up the gantry.
The lead screws need to be oiled often so they don't sound like Chewbacca sounding a battle cry, other than that nothing else.
The 4x4(50"x50") model.

We only climb mill.

Correct sir.

EDIT: In regards to a prior post I rechecked our invoice and the default Educational Discount is 10%, not the 5% I listed.