Chief Delphi

Chief Delphi (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/index.php)
-   General Forum (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=16)
-   -   F4 - Connect (The new way to get help) (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148747)

Michael Corsetto 02-06-2016 14:08

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I don't think anyone will get "hurt" with this proposed system. That seems like over-reacting to me. This seems harmless and similar to kids training each other (which our kids do all the time, by the way!)

One thing I will say. I encourage my kids, my team, everyone I talk to, to "steal from the best, invent the rest".

I don't mean this as a slight, but the students on F4 do not represent the premier contributors and competitors of FRC. They are an enthusiastic group of students with at least one Dean's List winner, which is great.

However, if I was a student/mentor/anyone looking to better my situation, I would use the best resources I have available that I feel comfortable using. My post here indicates my feelings around this topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1517082)
I'd encourage any/all readers to avoid this "conditioning" approach.

If you want to win, steal from the best, invent the rest.

We (1678) have learned to use aluminum gears, cantilevered shafts, and #25 roller chain. We've learned mostly from Team 254 and VexPRO/WCP. These organizations have, between them, probably 10 of the best 50 mentors in the entire FRC program.

The best part is, for any reader out there, even if you are a freshman rookie in high school, these mentors are just an email or PM away. Ask 254 WHY they do cantilevered shafts every year and HOW they do it! Ask 1678 WHY we copy 254 and HOW we do it. Ask VexPRO/AM/WCP how to properly implement their products into your designs.

These resources are available. They are just an email away. You don't have to do any more guess work. You CAN be a better engineer by working harder and gleaning knowledge from people that have walked further down the path you are already on. Be encouraged that you are not alone, take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you.

Learn from the best so you can BE the best.

-Mike

Best of luck, F4. I don't really listen to F4, but the fact that you're making it, I respect that.

-Mike

Nuttyman54 02-06-2016 14:16

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

asid61 02-06-2016 14:20

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I had a huge post written up, but deleted it because it would just further the argument.

Instead of flaming F4 Connect, please try to post constructive criticism or words for improvement. Unless somebody brings up some huge/drastic thing that completely change's The F4 Board's opinion, F4 Connect is here to stay.

No matter what happens to this thread, be it cluttered, or locked, or something else, students (and adults!) can always ask on F4 Connect.

EDIT: Only the F4 elected board can see responses to the form; that's 6 people total who swap out once every six (?) months. They are very responsible students who have passed the inspection of many DLFs, team leaders, and me. :P

frcguy 02-06-2016 14:20

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1590942)
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

+1

bkahl 02-06-2016 14:21

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1590942)
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

+2

asid61 02-06-2016 14:31

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1590942)
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frcguy (Post 1590944)
+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590946)
+2

Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590943)
Only the F4 elected board can see responses to the form; that's 6 people total who swap out once every six (?) months. They are very responsible students who have passed the inspection of many DLFs, team leaders, and me. :P

Hope that clears this up. <snipped out things not relevant to those posters because I am bad sometimes>

As a note to everybody else: please remember to read previous responses before posting something you think is new. :D

Hallry 02-06-2016 14:35

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590949)
Please remember to read previous responses before posting something new. :D

That last quote was edited in after frcguy and Bailey had already posted.

smitikshah 02-06-2016 14:46

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starke (Post 1590913)
students like Sam and Smiti are posting numerous times during a typical school day. Sam, for example, has posted on CD 10 times today since 9 AM this morning.

This forum will only add more things to check and respond to. Especially during the off-season, make sure to make school your priority over anything else.

My grades are very important to me and they take priority over everything. I only check during off-periods (now that APs are over I have nearly 4/5 periods or 2-3 hours of free time in which everyone is on their phones.) I'm responding to this this late because I was busy with school and am now on my way home. But still, thank you for your concern.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 14:52

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1590941)
Snip

This is slightly irrelevant but I figured I would tell everyone a bit about the students of F4.

We have 6 Deans List Finalists students. 2 of our students were on Einstein this year (and both were interviewed).

We have people from #teamifi teams and people from The United States, Canada, and Australia.

We have team leaders from teams that have won District championships and even a person who was the operator on your winning alliance last year at worlds.

Are we the best no but I consider us pretty decent ;)

Hallry 02-06-2016 14:56

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590961)
This is slightly irrelevant but I figured I would tell everyone a bit about the students of F4.

We have 6 Deans List Finalists students. 2 of our students were on Einstein this year (and both were interviewed).

We have people from #teamifi teams and people from The United States, Canada, and Australia.

We have team leaders from teams that have won District championships and even a person who was the operator on your winning alliance last year at worlds.

Are we the best no but I consider us pretty decent ;)

Out of curiosity, this is out of how many students? And what are the requirements for students to join other than filling out this Google form?

asid61 02-06-2016 15:02

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590964)
Out of curiosity, this is out of how many students? And what are the requirements for students to join other than filling out this Google form?

There are about 60 students in F4. All submissions for membership are reviewed by the F4 Board before being let into the community.
The Board decides who and how to handle F4 Connect messages, so having people completely new (and therefore not well known to the board) to F4 handling F4 Connect messages should be very rare.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 15:04

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590964)
Out of curiosity, this is out of how many students? And what are the requirements for students to join other than filling out this Google form?

There are 60. When it comes to applying there is a bit more then just filling out the form. To start we have only allowed one freshman on. We screen over the answers and usually allow the person in although we have had to remove a few people (2 including that freshman). We try to allow most people on but there are some people who are not allowed in. The board on the other hand is quite a bit more selective and involved voting from the other students. So if we stick to how it is now (The 6 people with access to the responses and 60 others we can delegate questions to) it will probably work out alright.

PayneTrain 02-06-2016 15:13

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590943)
I had a huge post written up, but deleted it because it would just further the argument.

Instead of flaming F4 Connect, please try to post constructive criticism or words for improvement.

You seem to operate under a definition of flaming that is magnitudes broader and more sensitive than most people on the internet use for it. Flaming involves making derisive or insulting remarks at one party that are tangential or irrelevant the topic at hand. There was a patch of irrelevant discussion w/r/t AIM, but I would be interested to see what you consider flaming. There has been hard criticism, sure, but this is a harshly critical bunch. Needlessly going on the defensive will not endear people to your cause.

Coincidentally, I am curious to see how this turns out. I don't think this is really such a bad idea in theory but the practice could leave much to be desired. Realistically, not involving a lot of experienced people help answer tough questions could prove be damaging but I respect your efforts. Chief is a scary place, in no thanks to some posts that I make (i think they are justifiable but still can be aggressive)

Let’s give the kids a chance to voice their concerns in some channel. Even if it has its flaws, I think CD is still the best channel but F4 can't be stopped to do what they want.

Juggling this program will become very challenging, I imagine. Even if you disagree to this idea, maybe making a report on this program available to CD after this summer and feel period would be a good faith move. Remove names and affiliations and post questions and answers (and relevant outcomes to them) after some time has passed.

Kudos to you kids on the effort, but please do the right thing when undertaking this.

ASD20 02-06-2016 15:55

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590943)
Instead of flaming F4 Connect, please try to post constructive criticism or words for improvement.
:P

I feel like the area connect may want to shift towards and that Chief Delphi current does not serve as well is long-term/in-depth advice. Simpler questions with more of a 'correct' answer are pretty well covered already. Connect could be used as an extension of much of what already happens at competitions. Many students spend their time at competitions going around the pits offering advice and assistance to struggling teams. I know that I have spent a lot of time at competitions helping teams fix problems with their robots and even helping them plan future improvements.

I see Connect as a place less experienced students and teams could go as a place to be 'connected' to someone who is not necessarily an expert, but is reasonably proficient in their area of concern and can work with them long term as essentially a consultant (or a sort of mini-mentor).

An example: A team is looking to design a custom drive train for the first time. They are connected to someone who has worked on custom drive train design for their team for the last few years. Over the course of a few weeks, the team exchanges CAD files and other design ideas with the person, who provides some feedback and shares some of the lessons and tricks he has learned from his own prior experiences designing drive trains. Would the advice provided be perfect? No, and it shouldn't be expected to be. However, I would say it would be reasonable to assume that the final product would be better than without advice.

Ideally, you would be connect with someone geographically close to you, so you could interact in person and at competitions as well as just digitally. It does not necessarily have to be students, though I think that students would be able to provide reasonable quality assistance. Essentially, it could be a way for teams with less mentor-resources to receive some focused mentoring and for more experienced and passionate students to take what their mentors have taught them and pass it on by mentoring themselves.

Alan Anderson 02-06-2016 16:09

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590919)
Currently our group is students only and we want to keep it that way.

That sounds like "We don't want mentors."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590919)
Its not that mentors experience is not wanted it just happens to be that we are a student only community.

That sounds like "We don't not want mentors."

I'll wait for you to make up your mind before I decide what I think of this latest proposed Balkanization of the community.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 18:16.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi