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-   -   F4 - Connect (The new way to get help) (http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148747)

Sperkowsky 01-06-2016 21:39

F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Hello everyone!

The F4 team has some great news! In spreading the F4 goal of helping the FRC community, we have developed a new service called F4 Connect. F4 Connect will allow anyone to ask questions, and get them answered by students that are willing to help. This aid will be at a personal level and our team will continue to help the individual until their question/problem is solved. We can help through any means of communication you would like to use and allow people to ask questions anonymously regarding a variety of topics. 1 out of our nearly 60 members will respond by your preferred method of communication. It is that easy.

Here is a link if you would like to ask a question. The service is currently in Beta mode for testing and will be refined through the process. Very soon it will be 100% operational.



We encourage everyone to use this service and send it to anyone in need. We hope we can help this community one answer at a time.

- Sam

pwnageNick 02-06-2016 00:30

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
So basically an all-student version of CD...

bkahl 02-06-2016 01:08

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1590749)
So basically an all-student version of CD...

Yeah...

I'm skeptical.

Why should a student want to use this instead of Chief Delphi... ESPECIALLY for technical questions? There are literally hundreds of Engineers on this forum with THOUSANDS of hours of experience in technical fields.

(The correct answer is they shouldn't)

Pauline Tasci 02-06-2016 01:11

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Not to mention Chief Delphi will get many responses from all different views. Chief Delphi is unique in the fact that so many people on here have several decades worth of experience and want to share that with new FIRST participants.

I don't see a benefit in F4 connect over the existing Chief Delphi.

Montavo 02-06-2016 01:15

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590757)
Yeah...

I'm skeptical.

Why should a student want to use this instead of Chief Delphi... ESPECIALLY for technical questions? There are literally hundreds of Engineers on this forum with THOUSANDS of hours of experience in technical fields.

(The correct answer is they shouldn't)

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1590749)
So basically an all-student version of CD...

I totally see the point of this F4 Connect program; Although I would have to agree with Bailey.
Chief delphi has professionals in various fields as well as experienced individuals in FIRST

Gregor 02-06-2016 01:23

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
What's the vetting process for who gets the power to reply? Especially if it's a private conversation, or a conversation just amongst students, sometimes the wrong information may be given, even if the person giving the advice thinks they're right.

At least when giving information on CD there are 100 angry Lythegoes with pitchforks waiting impatiently to correct any incorrect advice.

I don't understand the logic behind cutting out thousands of adults and many other students willing to give advice just so you can be different. As someone who spent four years on CD as a student, there is plenty opportunity to make your student voice heard.

asid61 02-06-2016 01:59

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I believe F4 Connect is primarily aimed at non-technical questions related to students. Getting a student's perspective in addition to an adult's could be a valuable resource, but I'll let Sam respond more in-depth as to the reasoning/execution in the morning. Sometimes getting a fellow student to talk about something with you in a small group is more relatable than posting on a forum such as CD, and doesn't encourage anybody to make burner accounts; more private than threads and less personal/easier than PMs.
I agree technical questions are better suited for CD, and I think F4 is trying to mostly avoid them (although I could be wrong, I'm not too familiar with this myself).

pwnageNick 02-06-2016 02:43

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61
I believe F4 Connect is primarily aimed at non-technical questions related to students. Getting a student's perspective in addition to an adult's could be a valuable resource, but I'll let Sam respond more in-depth as to the reasoning/execution in the morning. Sometimes getting a fellow student to talk about something with you in a small group is more relatable than posting on a forum such as CD, and doesn't encourage anybody to make burner accounts; more private than threads and less personal/easier than PMs.
I agree technical questions are better suited for CD, and I think F4 is trying to mostly avoid them (although I could be wrong, I'm not too familiar with this myself).

Can't you basically do this via PM on CD? If a student is looking for an answer from a student's point of view and doesn't want it in a large thread setting, it is very easy to know of students that you have personally decided you trust enough to PM directly with a question.

In addition, not only would an adult/mentor's perspective on non-technical topics still be valuable, but many, I'd argue possibly a majority, of the active user base on CD are not just mentors, but alumni who were once students and most likely went through some kind of situation to what the student would be inquiring about. If the topic is that specific that only current students would understand and be able to help with (I can't even think of anything that fits that), then as I said before it is very easy to find active well-thought students on the forums here.

What I foresee happening if something like this took off, is that some students would come to know F4 Connect as their main source for advice and council, which I would find concerning. Don't forget, there's a reason Dean has always stressed how FRC is about students AND mentors working together.

bkahl 02-06-2016 03:03

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590768)
I believe F4 Connect is primarily aimed at non-technical questions related to students.

One of the options for this "F4-Connect" is 'Technical Questions'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1590775)
Don't forget, there's a reason Dean has always stressed how FRC is about students AND mentors working together.

X2


Please remember-- this program is SO successful because of the unbelievably smart and resourceful mentors. Actively trying to rid them from contributing to our community is not what we should be doing. (I say this as a COLLEGE STUDENT, because I, too, still learn from the more experienced mentors around me)

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 06:08

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Hi all. I probably worded some stuff wrong so, I am going to address everyone's concerns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pwnageNick (Post 1590749)
So basically an all-student version of CD...

Actually no. To start asking questions is not limited to students just answering them is. One large benefit to this program is it allows people to ask questions they would normally have to make a throwaway account for. Its also great for less advanced technical help or as we said it "noob" questions. Basically we are there if a person is too embarrassed to post it here. Lastly we think the personal connection you could gain through something like a skype call and the ability to get follow up help on any issue is valuable and something Chiefdelphi lacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1590760)
What's the vetting process for who gets the power to reply? Especially if it's a private conversation, or a conversation just amongst students, sometimes the wrong information may be given, even if the person giving the advice thinks they're right.

At least when giving information on CD there are 100 angry Lythegoes with pitchforks waiting impatiently to correct any incorrect advice.

I don't understand the logic behind cutting out thousands of adults and many other students willing to give advice just so you can be different. As someone who spent four years on CD as a student, there is plenty opportunity to make your student voice heard.

Its not about getting our voice heard. That is what the show is there for. What this is about is assisting the community with our knowledge base. We have 60 people. We can/will answer pretty much any question accurately. Currently answering questions is restricted to the F4 Board (Our board of elected officials) but, we will implement some stuff to make sure only qualified people answer questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590777)
One of the options for this "F4-Connect" is 'Technical Questions'.

Please remember-- this program is SO successful because of the unbelievably smart and resourceful mentors. Actively trying to rid them from contributing to our community is not what we should be doing. (I say this as a COLLEGE STUDENT, because I, too, still learn from the more experienced mentors around me)

That is because we will answer technical issues. We do realize chiefdelphi is a better alternative for most technical issues but, we do not want to restrict people too much.

I would not be where I am without mentors in this community. But, I think there are some problems where a personal setting with a knowledgeable student is better than a single text based reply from a mentor.

Andrew Schreiber 02-06-2016 08:14

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590781)

Its not about getting our voice heard. That is what the show is there for. What this is about is assisting the community with our knowledge base. We have 60 people. We can/will answer pretty much any question accurately. Currently answering questions is restricted to the F4 Board (Our board of elected officials) but, we will implement some stuff to make sure only qualified people answer questions.


So wait. Is it 60 students answering or is it some subset of that?

Roboshant 02-06-2016 09:02

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1590794)
So wait. Is it 60 students answering or is it some subset of that?

It is a subset of the 60 students, which completely depends on the question asked.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 09:02

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber (Post 1590794)
So wait. Is it 60 students answering or is it some subset of that?

Currently there are only 6 people answering questions. The other 54ish people will be involved very soon once we sort out of way of delegating questions while making sure qualified people answer.

What Dikshant said above is the plan we just have to implement it.

notmattlythgoe 02-06-2016 09:16

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gregor (Post 1590760)
What's the vetting process for who gets the power to reply? Especially if it's a private conversation, or a conversation just amongst students, sometimes the wrong information may be given, even if the person giving the advice thinks they're right.

At least when giving information on CD there are 100 angry Lythegoes with pitchforks waiting impatiently to correct any incorrect advice.

I don't understand the logic behind cutting out thousands of adults and many other students willing to give advice just so you can be different. As someone who spent four years on CD as a student, there is plenty opportunity to make your student voice heard.


IronicDeadBird 02-06-2016 09:29

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Interesting my concern with it would be what happens when someone asks a question that is... outside of the scope of the group I guess.
I always felt mandatory reporter laws have a certain weight to them that I wouldn't want imposed on a student.

notmattlythgoe 02-06-2016 09:32

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

We can/will answer pretty much any question accurately.
That is a very bold statement to make considering how many "professionals" on CD make incorrect statements all the time.

IronicDeadBird 02-06-2016 09:36

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1590815)
That is a very bold statement to make considering how many "professionals" on CD make incorrect statements all the time.

That is actually another interesting point, is this a factual help service or is this more just trying to be like a supporting group.
Just being there for someone in a time of need is great, but bad information can lead to some nasty things. We all know chief delphi isn't the GDC and delphis interpretation of the manual and the GDCs interpretation are different.

dirtbikerxz 02-06-2016 09:54

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I guess I can kind of get the point of F4 connect if it was strictly students talking to other students about social issues.... but then again I really don't, what if a student gets a wrong advice: Student 1: "Me and my mentor aren't getting along what do I do?" Student 2: "Oh just make a new team." Student 1: "Okay!...... "

Except for in a few specific questions, I really don't see the point of not getting advice from multiple sources including multiple students and multiple mentors....

And definitely not for technical questions. Who cares if you have a pretty simple question, no one is going to say "oh you don't know how to enable the bot, get out of here"... While CD might be condescending sometimes, there is much more good than bad.

And don't even get started that you can "answer all questions accurately". I'm a high school student, I'm going to be a junior in the fall.... and I will bet all my money that you can't. It's simple logic. We are students, we have only existed for a maximum of 18 or so years. THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE AS THE MENTORS OF 50 AGE WHO DO THIS FOR A LIVING. (and here come the red dots :D )

Please don't give advice to a student somewhere that could get him/her in serious trouble or something like that.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 09:55

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1590814)
Interesting my concern with it would be what happens when someone asks a question that is... outside of the scope of the group I guess.
I always felt mandatory reporter laws have a certain weight to them that I wouldn't want imposed on a student.

Yup, we saw this as a big issue. We wrote up this as a disclaimer which everyone is prompted to agree with.

F4 Connect is a student run group for helping people with questions about robotics. While we are here to help, we do not assume any responsibility for harm or injury caused by the advice given (or lack thereof). By submitting this form you agree that any action taken upon the advice given is at your own risk. Any cases the F4 Connect team thinks are potentially harmful (including, but not limited to: suicide, self harm, criminal problems, etc.) may not be answered, and have potential to be reported to the proper authorities.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1590816)
That is actually another interesting point, is this a factual help service or is this more just trying to be like a supporting group.
Just being there for someone in a time of need is great, but bad information can lead to some nasty things. We all know chiefdelphi isn't the GDC and delphis interpretation of the manual and the GDCs interpretation are different.

We plan on addressing mostly questions regarding team issues. When build season rolls around we will most likely get things like rule interpretation questions which we will probably respond with either a Q and A response or a quote from the manual with no interpretation. When it comes to engineering help we will ensure validity on our end and if no one is qualified to answer a question we will point them in the right direction.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 10:05

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz (Post 1590824)
I guess I can kind of get the point of F4 connect if it was strictly students talking to other students about social issues.... but then again I really don't, what if a student gets a wrong advice: Student 1: "Me and my mentor aren't getting along what do I do?" Student 2: "Oh just make a new team." Student 1: "Okay!...... "

Except for in a few specific questions, I really don't see the point of not getting advice from multiple sources including multiple students and multiple mentors....

And definitely not for technical questions. Who cares if you have a pretty simple question, no one is going to say "oh you don't know how to enable the bot, get out of here"... While CD might be condescending sometimes, there is much more good than bad.

And don't even get started that you can "answer all questions accurately". I'm a high school student, I'm going to be a junior in the fall.... and I will bet all my money that you can't. It's simple logic. We are students, we have only existed for a maximum of 18 or so years. THERE IS NO WAY THAT WE HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE AS THE MENTORS OF 50 AGE WHO DO THIS FOR A LIVING. (and here come the red dots :D )

Please don't give advice to a student somewhere that could get him/her in serious trouble or something like that.

Well first of all we are here to give correct advice. We will never give a preposterous answer like you demonstrated. There are many situations in FRC where people are not comfortable using a message board. Hence the large quantity of anonymous accounts.

Actually people will say hah you do not know how to enable the bot get out of here. I encourage you to read some of the responses to threads early in the season they generally are the most condescending. Some people also have simple questions they do not want tied to their team. Say a team has no idea how to connect the radio. They are a 4 year team but the seniors who started the team graduated. That team does not want to make themselves look bad asking a simple question.

Your last few points particularly are alarming to me. To start just because you do not know something does not mean none of us do you can not generalize high school students and say they will always be less knowledgeable then adults. Next point is even more alarming. There are mentors who have been in FRC for dozens of years yet cant get their team to field a working robot. Are there mentors more knowledgeable then all of us combined absolutely. But there are also plenty who know much less.

dirtbikerxz 02-06-2016 10:16

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590827)
Well first of all we are here to give correct advice. We will never give a preposterous answer like you demonstrated. There are many situations in FRC where people are not comfortable using a message board. Hence the large quantity of anonymous accounts.

The example was a joke, but even though I dislike the use of anonymous accounts, atleast they are still getting help from the entire knowledge base of CD.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590827)
Your last few points particularly are alarming to me. To start just because you do not know something does not mean none of us do you can not generalize high school students and say they will always be less knowledgeable then adults. Next point is even more alarming. There are mentors who have been in FRC for dozens of years yet cant get their team to field a working robot. Are there mentors more knowledgeable then all of us combined absolutely. But there are also plenty who know much less.

The fact that you said that alarms me and hints at some arrogance that you might (or might not) have. Also you contradicted your first statement with your second. You said that the group of all of you will have the required knowledge, and just because I don't know it doesn't mean you don't... Well I sure hope that you have more than I do, because I know for a fact the I (or my entire team combined, including the mentors, for that matter) don't have enough knowledge. And also when you yourself said that one mentor might have more knowledge than all of you combined, how can you still say that you will be able to answer everything. If someone can have MORE knowledge that you, than that means you don't know everything...... And that is the point of cd, so that both the good mentors (and students) can give their good advice, and the mentors and students with bad advice can get told that their advice is bad... So the OP only listens to the good advice, oh and the bad advice people also learn the proper advice for future use... its a win win :D

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 10:22

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz (Post 1590830)
The example was a joke, but even though I dislike the use of anonymous accounts, atleast they are still getting help from the entire knowledge base of CD.

The fact that you said that alarms me and hints at some arrogance that you might (or might not) have. Also you contradicted your first statement with your second. You said that the group of all of you will have the required knowledge, and just because I don't know it doesn't mean you don't... Well I sure hope that you have more than I do, because I know for a fact the I (or my entire team combined, including the mentors, for that matter) don't have enough knowledge. And also when you yourself said that one mentor might have more knowledge than all of you combined, how can you still say that you will be able to answer everything. If someone can have MORE knowledge that you, than that means you don't know everything...... And that is the point of cd, so that both the good mentors (and students) can give their good advice, and the mentors and students with bad advice can get told that their advice is bad... So the OP only listens to the good advice, oh and the bad advice people also learn the proper advice for future use... its a win win :D

Almost every single one of our members use Chiefdelphi for a good reason. What it does not offer (Personal Help, and Anonymity) is what we are offering with Connect.

bkahl 02-06-2016 10:35

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590831)
Almost every single one of our members use Chiefdelphi for a good reason. What it does not offer (Personal Help, and Anonymity) is what we are offering with Connect.

What about technical questions?

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 10:37

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590835)
What about technical questions?

When I say personal help I mean something like a Skype call.

PayneTrain 02-06-2016 10:37

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1590815)
That is a very bold statement to make considering how many "professionals" on CD make incorrect statements all the time.

As an aspiring professional BS'er I'm going to have to take this as a compliment.

bkahl 02-06-2016 10:47

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590836)
When I say personal help I mean something like a Skype call.

I'm still confused about how ONE STUDENT (because unless you Google doc every single questionor something, it's more than likely one person will answer any given question) will provide a more knowledgeable, experienced, thought out answer than the literal thousands of minds lurking around here.

(The correct answer is they won't)

Listen Sam, I (kind of) understand what you are trying to do here, it just has too many flaws. I'm worried that some students will see this and forget about the larger mode knowledgeable database that Chief Delphi has become. If they come to rely on this service rather than the little 'search' option you can find at the top of this very page (because let's be real, if something has happened, I'm sure you can read about it somewhere on CD), we are all doing something wrong. If every single one of your members uses CD for good reasons, shouldn't you be encouraging others to do the same?

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 10:52

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590845)
I'm still confused about how ONE STUDENT (because unless you Google doc every single questionor something, it's more than likely one person will answer any given question) will provide a more knowledgeable, experienced, thought out answer than the literal thousands of minds lurking around here.

(The correct answer is they won't)

Listen Sam, I (kind of) understand what you are trying to do here, it just has too many flaws. I'm worried that some students will see this and forget about the larger mode knowledgeable database that Chief Delphi has become. If they come to rely on this service rather than the little 'search' option (because let's be real, if something has happened, I'm sure you can read about it somewhere on CD) you can find at the top of this very page, we are all doing something wrong. If every single one of your members uses CD for good reasons, shouldn't you be encouraging others to do the same?

Well actually we do "Google doc" every question. Everything is through a shared Google form which goes into our shared folder. I probably will not answer too many questions. Although I am generally the public voice of f4 I don't even do close to everything. We are a team and behave like one.

We are not trying to be chiefdelphi at all. We think that the only effect it will have on it is less anonymous accounts and simple questions.

Conor Ryan 02-06-2016 11:02

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
What are some sample questions that the F4 Connect community has prepared?

I'm interested in the types of questions they want to answer, the level of detail in the response and the transparency involved.

In a perfect world, this would be like a curated wiki where the community would help improve answers.

smitikshah 02-06-2016 11:07

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
The point of F4 Connect, as understood by someone who was involved in helping getting the idea off the ground, was as Sam said, to offer anonymous help for anyone who would welcome our opinion. After noticing the amount of threads about team relations in addition to the anonymous accounts thread, we decided to create a solution. We aren't looking to replace CD in the slightest, especially on technical views, but simply offer a more personal spin on answers. Using this source doesn't mean the student can't also post on CD and get more "professional" help. We were simply looking to help out the community in the way that we could.

g_sawchuk 02-06-2016 11:18

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
F4 "Connect". The name is ironic. Sure, you're "connecting" with individuals on a small scale. However, the concept , unintentionally, removes the greater connection, the connection that formulates the FIRST community.

The community of FIRST is undoubtedly important. It's been referenced many times by FRC staff on the blog, FIRST participants tend to hold it as a value, it is a core construct of what FIRST is.

However, F4 Connect could unintentionally take away from the formation of this greater community. If someone posts a problem on ChiefDelphi, they're instantly exposed to hundreds of individuals. Many people will come out to help them with their problem, lending their varying degrees of expertise to solve a problem. How do they do it? By working as a group, a community. Not only that, but a person who is instantly reached out to by members of the CD community (note, plural, not just a singular individual) definitely feels supported by fellow FIRSTers. This helps tie them into the FIRST community. Community growth is essential to FIRST's success. This community is what compiles mentors, participants, sponsors, spectators, and volunteers alike.

Emulating what others have already said, it can undoubtedly be said that a group of individuals, with the varying expertise that CD can lend, can contribute more valuable and accurate/consistent input than a single individual, or a group of six students. While students can be very knowledgeable, you're completely sectioning major parts of FIRST out from putting in input. You narrow down input to one perspective, possibly leading to inaccurate information.

Lastly, F4 Connect limits the potential of a fantastic resource being formed. By keeping everything private, someone with the same problem is unable to search through a past resource, and find help.

While F4 Connect is made with good intentions, this may end up hurting, as opposed to helping, the FIRST community.

Akash Rastogi 02-06-2016 11:21

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Back in my day we would just hop onto AIM and message our friends on other teams questions. :rolleyes:

notmattlythgoe 02-06-2016 11:23

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1590855)
Back in my day we would just hop onto AIM and message our friends on other teams questions. :rolleyes:


bkahl 02-06-2016 11:24

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1590855)
Back in my day we would just hop onto AIM and message our friends on other teams questions. :rolleyes:

I think some of the students in the community may now be too young to know what AIM is... how unfortunate.

Chris is me 02-06-2016 11:26

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1590855)
Back in my day we would just hop onto AIM and message our friends on other teams questions. :rolleyes:

Man, I miss AIM. Facebook Messenger just isn't the same, man. It was such a cool way to directly reach out to anyone in the robotics community without having to feel like you were bothering them.

bkahl 02-06-2016 11:26

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris is me (Post 1590859)
Man, I miss AIM. Facebook Messenger just isn't the same, man. It was such a cool way to directly reach out to anyone in the robotics community without having to feel like you were bothering them.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/se...pe=aim&u=29307

Akash Rastogi 02-06-2016 11:30

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590860)

Make AIM Great Again - Picone/Kahl 2016

On a more serious note: I usually support new initiatives, and have defended F4 in the past, but I think this is unnecessary and promoting the exclusion of mentors, as well as limiting the knowledge base, is detrimental to the student seeking advice.

Students - if you need advice, reach out to literally any mentor or experienced student on here privately. Shoot us PM's or even download AIM if it still exists.

bkahl 02-06-2016 11:31

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Akash Rastogi (Post 1590861)
even download AIM if it still exists.

https://i.aol.com/reg/signup?promocode=825974

It does.

Ben Martin 02-06-2016 11:33

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I don't see a problem here. The market for this service seems to be for students who want to ask advice of students on other teams who might be intimidated about posting on CD. I can relate to that.

I'm not sure how much activity you'll get, but good luck.

Conor Ryan 02-06-2016 11:46

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590863)

Mobile App

BTW - AIM is still widely used by the commodity trading industry. Most oil deals are negotiated over AIM.

sammyjalex 02-06-2016 11:53

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I'm curious why a Q&A forum was the solution that the group pursued instead of any number of other sorts of community-building platforms. I'd love to hear from Sam.

I think that there's a need for more support for students that start outside of their comfort zone and less than comfortable and confident in the FIRST community - more guides like the 358 electronics guides and Code Orange videos, more Karthik presentations, more FRCTop25s. But absolutely - student-focused.

But I'm also concerned, with the CD hivemind, I suppose, that more forums draw participants away from anything that could centralize that community. What I hear from a lot of the folks that are posting is that teaching students to search CD whitepapers, old threads, and photos is an important skill and offers a lot of learning. There seems to be concern that there's fortress getting built around the notion that CD is scary. Maybe it's a concern that this reputation will deter students from ever using CD and it will start to be less used by students. CD only works because so many folks use it year after year. Otherwise, it stops serving as a resource. I think about how NEMO and some Facebook groups have information that's valuable but work more like archives of past work. Why don't we start by working to remove that reputation. I think there's a lot that we can do. Where do we start?
Perhaps, I'm very wrong. I do think that this is a really cool project. I'm excited to see its growth and its success.

I've shared some of these thoughts with other students talking about similar ideas. I would love to see an advice podcast that supports FIRST participants team relationship questions. There are so many relationship advice podcasts - it'd be a fun take on a familiar idea. I would love to see a Facebook page that posts anonymous Q&As - the comments could be cool too. What other solutions did you consider? What other solutions could be fruitful in this community?

I have a question for anyone. What's an experienced student? If I'm a student and I want to ask a student a question, who do I ask? Who identifies the experienced ones. Is it about more posts on CD? Or a team with more banners? Neither seems like a particularly great solution. What do leaders look like in this broad, virtual community.

And there's no correct advice, let's be clear on that. Every major newspaper has an advice column. I think of Social Qs in the New York Times. All of these have a group of folks answering different questions. And they all think about situations very differently. We can certainly have opinions regarding helpful and terrible advice.

Libby K 02-06-2016 12:05

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird (Post 1590814)
Interesting my concern with it would be what happens when someone asks a question that is... outside of the scope of the group I guess.
I always felt mandatory reporter laws have a certain weight to them that I wouldn't want imposed on a student.

This was my first concern as I'm reading this thread.
(The other point, on which others have said enough, is that you're basically rehashing Delphi but without the history/community/size.)

Sam (and rest of the F4 crew), there is a reason some things are relegated to the responsibility of adults. Support, friendship, and advice is nice, but there are certain realms of team-dynamic discussions that truly need to be handled differently. If you're really going to go through with this, I'd advise adding an adult or two to your 'board' that you can trust to handle things that are outside the realm of your responsibility.

There are issues that might come up that need to be filtered through a lens of maturity & understanding that I can promise you, you don't have yet while you're still in the 'bubble' of being a student... I don't even think I've gotten it completely down sometimes. Even as the excellent students I'm sure your teams have led you to be, there is still a distinct difference. I hate to use the old-timey phrase 'you'll understand when you're older', but it's true - I hope some other mentors can chime in & express it more eloquently than I have.

Every FIRST community I can think of is moderated or filtered by at least a few adults, and there are good reasons for that. I hope you will at least consider it.

Pauline Tasci 02-06-2016 12:07

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Martin (Post 1590864)
The market for this service seems to be for students who want to ask advice of students on other teams who might be intimidated about posting on CD.

Chief Delphi might be intimidating at first but I think it's one of those things we all conquer and need to learn how to effectively post on.

When I was a student I was "intimidated" to post on Chief Delphi on fear I would say something stupid. Guess what? I did. We all did.
But having a huge community of people with HUNDREDS of years of combined experience is worth being intimidated. Having an outlet where your question doesn't only benefit yourself but benefits everyone who reads it is worth it.

I also really don't understand why F4 Connect is excluding mentors that have a lot to offer with questions people might ask.
A lot of active mentors on here are alumni of the program and can offer great and accurate advice.

ATannahill 02-06-2016 12:38

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I agree with most people that I am concerned about the factual accuracy of the responses. Case in point, the F4 show about districts vs. regionals was littered with inaccuracies and half truths from both sides of the discussion.

But I think Sam (and the F4 crew) has a point in the personal connection being helpful statement. I do not know how many threads I have seen asking about robot connectivity issues where I (and other people) ask questions like "What are you trying to do?", "What are the indicator lights showing?", "Can you walk us through the process and issue you have?" and the original poster never responds. This might be because they have trouble finding their thread again in all the minutiae of CD. In these cases, no one is helped. If F4 Connect can get a direct way to contact someone about their issue (email/aim/(jail) cell number) and actually walk them through the issue to completion, then they are providing a service that is superior to CD. It doesn't matter if someone with a nobel prize answer the question, if the person needing the information does not hear (or understand) it.

It might be good if these types of interactions happen in a glass box so that others can watch and bang on the glass if something isn't quite right. This might be able to be accomplished by posting solutions on a blog with the asker's information redacted.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 12:55

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
The idea of F4 Connect is not to exclude mentors. The only reason for this aspect is because it comes from our all student community. We realize mentors have plenty of knowledge to spread.

If our resource can help a team I do not see why anyone should be against it.

notmattlythgoe 02-06-2016 12:57

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590899)
The idea of F4 Connect is not to exclude mentors. The only reason for this aspect is because it comes from our all student community. We realize mentors have plenty of knowledge to spread.

If our resource can help a team I do not see why anyone should be against it.

Just because it can help doesn't mean it can't also hurt. That's the problem.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 13:02

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1590900)
Just because it can help doesn't mean it can't also hurt. That's the problem.

When anyone provides advice is can be good or bad. There are bad doctors that can do harm. But, no one is saying we should get rid of doctors because one of them gave bad information.

Although that is a stretch the general gist is we will do our best to provide anyone (Not limited to students) help. We do not yet know who will use this service. We do not know how it will be utilized but, we want to atleast give this concept a try.

saikiranra 02-06-2016 13:12

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590904)
When anyone provides advice is can be good or bad. There are bad doctors that can do harm. But, no one is saying we should get rid of doctors because one of them gave bad information.

The appropriate analogy here is only asking a group of pre-med students medical advice. Sure, there are many pre-med students that might know the right thing to do, but sometimes they don't have the experience to handle some situations that seasoned doctors may have the best advice for. This is even more true in a peer reviewed medical journal where knowledge is vetted by multiple sources before being distributed.

I think the issue that people have here has to do with transparency and review. If you could figure out a way to give that, the community might be more supportive of your efforts.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 13:18

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by saikiranra (Post 1590906)
The appropriate analogy here is only asking a group of pre-med students medical advice. Sure, there are many pre-med students that might know the right thing to do, but sometimes they don't have the experience to handle some situations that seasoned doctors may have the best advice for. This is even more true in a peer reviewed medical journal where knowledge is vetted by multiple sources before being distributed.

I think the issue that people have here has to do with transparency and review. If you could figure out a way to give that, the community might be more supportive of your efforts.

If people ask a question and say the word (transparent) at the end of their question we would gladly publicize it here to alleviate some concerns.

For the normal user we have to keep it behind closed doors because that is the entire premise behind the service.

Alyssa 02-06-2016 13:19

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Even just the title of this thread "(The new way to get help)" makes you sound like you're trying to replace mentors...

Knufire 02-06-2016 13:19

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I could see this being useful for personal related matters, such as questions on how to balance robotics and social lives. Yes, many of us on CD have experience with that but there are always nuances with the current class of students (is that what the youngin's do nowadays?) that advice from a fellow peer may have insight that a mentor's could not.

However, with anything technical, I share the many concerns that have already been posted in this thread. And frankly, I feel like most of the questions (being a robotics competition and all) are going to end up being technical.

FarmerJohn 02-06-2016 13:20

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I fully support this idea. This is the functional equivalent of starting a school taught by your classmates, and I love it. I'm sure it'll be a lot more enjoyable, you'll build new relationships with peers, and if you have any trouble, just ask the expert who is halfway through the introductory course. I'm sure they'll know how to teach you the material. "Experience" is overrated, especially from adults in a STUDENT program. What matters most is that a fellow student provides the help, regardless of what potential negative outcomes may be.

(EDIT: /s)

Starke 02-06-2016 13:20

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590904)
When anyone provides advice is can be good or bad. There are bad doctors that can do harm. But, no one is saying we should get rid of doctors because one of them gave bad information.

Although that is a stretch the general gist is we will do our best to provide anyone (Not limited to students) help. We do not yet know who will use this service. We do not know how it will be utilized but, we want to atleast give this concept a try.

I am not trying to derail the thread, only voice an concerned opinion and provide good advice. From a teacher's perspective, I am concerned that the students like Sam and Smiti are posting numerous times during a typical school day. Sam, for example, has posted on CD 10 times today since 9 AM this morning.

This forum will only add more things to check and respond to. Especially during the off-season, make sure to make school your priority over anything else.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 13:23

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starke (Post 1590913)
I am not trying to derail the thread, only voice an concerned opinion and provide good advice. From a teacher's perspective, I am concerned that the students like Sam and Smiti are posting numerous times during a typical school day. Sam, for example, has posted on CD 10 times today since 9 AM this morning.

This forum will only add more things to check and respond to. Especially during the off-season, make sure to make school your priority over anything else.

AP's are over so most of our classes are free periods. Although, I am guilty of prioritizing robotics over school at times.

Ben Martin 02-06-2016 13:23

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pauline Tasci (Post 1590881)
Having an outlet where your question doesn't only benefit yourself but benefits everyone who reads it is worth it.

True, but that doesn't devalue what F4 is doing. Everything you post publicly online could be perceived in any way by anybody, which can freak the hell out of a large portion of the introverted FRC population, students and mentors alike. And as much as everyone says they should just PM the mentors with high rep, that can be incredibly intimidating as well, as you're putting your name and your team's name up for judgement with a prominent member of the community.

People are averse to letting other people know that they need help, and sometimes they would rather suffer through it than let others know. Sending a question to a form where others don't get to see your post might be more attractive for someone who wouldn't have otherwise reached out to anyone.



For the people concerned with trusting the information--I wouldn't say the advice could be incorrect just because they're students. Reserve judgement until you see the outcome, nobody has been hurt.

Knufire 02-06-2016 13:26

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn (Post 1590912)
I fully support this idea. This is the functional equivalent of starting a school taught by your classmates, and I love it. I'm sure it'll be a lot more enjoyable, you'll build new relationships with peers, and if you have any trouble, just ask the expert who is halfway through the introductory course. I'm sure they'll know how to teach you the material. "Experience" is overrated, especially from adults in a STUDENT program. What matters most is that a fellow student provides the help, regardless of what potential negative outcomes may be.

See below.

Quote:

Originally Posted by http://www.firstinspires.org/about/vision-and-mission
Mission
The mission of FIRST is to inspire young people to be science and technology leaders, by engaging them in exciting Mentor-based programs that build science, engineering, and technology skills, that inspire innovation, and that foster well-rounded life capabilities including self-confidence, communication, and leadership.


notmattlythgoe 02-06-2016 13:27

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Martin (Post 1590915)
True, but that doesn't devalue what F4 is doing. Everything you post publicly online could be perceived in any way by anybody, which can freak the hell out of a large portion of the introverted FRC population, students and mentors alike. And as much as everyone says they should just PM the mentors with high rep, that can be incredibly intimidating as well, as you're putting your name and your team's name up for judgement with a prominent member of the community.

People are averse to letting other people know that they need help, and sometimes they would rather suffer through it than let others know. Sending a question to a form where others don't get to see your post might be more attractive for someone who wouldn't have otherwise reached out to anyone.



For the people concerned with trusting the information--I wouldn't say the advice could be incorrect just because they're students. Reserve judgement until you see the outcome, nobody has been hurt.

If the whole point is to give an anonymous and private place to ask questions, why are mentors not on the answering committee? Why is this a student experience only resource? There are many many mentors that have lived through most of the different scenarios that could come up in this resource, why is their experience not wanted?

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 13:30

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1590918)
If the whole point is to give an anonymous and private place to ask questions, why are mentors not on the answering committee? Why is this a student experience only resource? There are many many mentors that have lived through most of the different scenarios that could come up in this resource, why is their experience not wanted?

This same concept could have been started by a different group/person. Currently our group is students only and we want to keep it that way. Its not that mentors experience is not wanted it just happens to be that we are a student only community.

FarmerJohn 02-06-2016 13:30

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Martin (Post 1590915)
Reserve judgement until you see the outcome, nobody has been hurt.

But I'm not confident nobody will get hurt. I don't fear a program run by students, I fear a student receiving inexperienced information and something bad happening because of that. Maybe some bad design advice causes a robot failure that ends that student's season early. Maybe some less than mature points of view could lead a student to leaving the program, or getting kicked off their team. That's what I'm afraid of.

Ben Martin 02-06-2016 13:45

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe (Post 1590918)
If the whole point is to give an anonymous and private place to ask questions, why are mentors not on the answering committee? Why is this a student experience only resource? There are many many mentors that have lived through most of the different scenarios that could come up in this resource, why is their experience not wanted?

It would be nice if this resource did exist, akin to the Rose-Hulman Homework Hotline that uses college students.

However, somebody has to set it up and manage it. That's a lot of work.

My libertarian belief here -- don't shut down someone who isn't hurting you. If they want to do it this way, let them do it, as they are the ones actually putting in the work. It is everyone's choice to use it or not use it.

Knufire 02-06-2016 13:57

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben Martin (Post 1590926)
It would be nice if this resource did exist, akin to the Rose-Hulman Homework Hotline that uses college students.

Just want to mention that being a Homework Hotline tutor is a work-study (paid) position; students aren't voluntarily doing this out of the good of their heart.

Also, I think a big reason Homework Hotline works is simply because the people answering the questions have already proved that they have a level of competence (by gaining acceptance into the university) with the subject matter (which is limited to high school level math and science questions).

A better analogy was if Homework Hotline was run by AP-level high school students instead of college students. Could it still work? Very much yes. Is there a bit more risk? I would say so.

To reiterate my opinion on this, I definitely think there's value in having this service for non-technical matters. However, there's just simply better resources out there for robot advice.

Michael Corsetto 02-06-2016 14:08

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I don't think anyone will get "hurt" with this proposed system. That seems like over-reacting to me. This seems harmless and similar to kids training each other (which our kids do all the time, by the way!)

One thing I will say. I encourage my kids, my team, everyone I talk to, to "steal from the best, invent the rest".

I don't mean this as a slight, but the students on F4 do not represent the premier contributors and competitors of FRC. They are an enthusiastic group of students with at least one Dean's List winner, which is great.

However, if I was a student/mentor/anyone looking to better my situation, I would use the best resources I have available that I feel comfortable using. My post here indicates my feelings around this topic:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1517082)
I'd encourage any/all readers to avoid this "conditioning" approach.

If you want to win, steal from the best, invent the rest.

We (1678) have learned to use aluminum gears, cantilevered shafts, and #25 roller chain. We've learned mostly from Team 254 and VexPRO/WCP. These organizations have, between them, probably 10 of the best 50 mentors in the entire FRC program.

The best part is, for any reader out there, even if you are a freshman rookie in high school, these mentors are just an email or PM away. Ask 254 WHY they do cantilevered shafts every year and HOW they do it! Ask 1678 WHY we copy 254 and HOW we do it. Ask VexPRO/AM/WCP how to properly implement their products into your designs.

These resources are available. They are just an email away. You don't have to do any more guess work. You CAN be a better engineer by working harder and gleaning knowledge from people that have walked further down the path you are already on. Be encouraged that you are not alone, take advantage of the opportunities that are in front of you.

Learn from the best so you can BE the best.

-Mike

Best of luck, F4. I don't really listen to F4, but the fact that you're making it, I respect that.

-Mike

Nuttyman54 02-06-2016 14:16

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

asid61 02-06-2016 14:20

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I had a huge post written up, but deleted it because it would just further the argument.

Instead of flaming F4 Connect, please try to post constructive criticism or words for improvement. Unless somebody brings up some huge/drastic thing that completely change's The F4 Board's opinion, F4 Connect is here to stay.

No matter what happens to this thread, be it cluttered, or locked, or something else, students (and adults!) can always ask on F4 Connect.

EDIT: Only the F4 elected board can see responses to the form; that's 6 people total who swap out once every six (?) months. They are very responsible students who have passed the inspection of many DLFs, team leaders, and me. :P

frcguy 02-06-2016 14:20

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1590942)
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

+1

bkahl 02-06-2016 14:21

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1590942)
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

+2

asid61 02-06-2016 14:31

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuttyman54 (Post 1590942)
I don't inherently see an issue with students seeking advice from other students, but I do have a major concern with the F4 Connect approach:

The premise/focus seems to be anonymity or privacy, yet you're using Google Docs in a way that appears to allow all 60 or so of the students to access the information. The privacy may be a mirage, and that can be dangerous.

If someone's information gets out somehow, either through gossip, hacking, unauthorized access, etc., it could be a huge issue. Especially if there is information being shared which can compromise safety/security of a student (eg, something which has the potential for retaliation, personally identifiable information combined with phone numbers etc.). In a community which bills itself as a anonymous/private resource, it is far less likely that students will be cautious about the details.

Posting on CD in a public forum has little expectation for privacy. Sending a PM initiates a private conversation with one person. Sending a supposedly anonymous message in which the other end can be seen by 60 people, and suddenly having your message content being spread around can be disastrous.

The creation of F4 Connect, and the amount of support already garnered for it indicates to me that there is a legitimate concern within the student FRC community. The feedback is that a large number of students do not feel comfortable posting on CD. I'm just not sure the approach here is the right way to address that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by frcguy (Post 1590944)
+1

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkahl (Post 1590946)
+2

Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590943)
Only the F4 elected board can see responses to the form; that's 6 people total who swap out once every six (?) months. They are very responsible students who have passed the inspection of many DLFs, team leaders, and me. :P

Hope that clears this up. <snipped out things not relevant to those posters because I am bad sometimes>

As a note to everybody else: please remember to read previous responses before posting something you think is new. :D

Hallry 02-06-2016 14:35

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590949)
Please remember to read previous responses before posting something new. :D

That last quote was edited in after frcguy and Bailey had already posted.

smitikshah 02-06-2016 14:46

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Starke (Post 1590913)
students like Sam and Smiti are posting numerous times during a typical school day. Sam, for example, has posted on CD 10 times today since 9 AM this morning.

This forum will only add more things to check and respond to. Especially during the off-season, make sure to make school your priority over anything else.

My grades are very important to me and they take priority over everything. I only check during off-periods (now that APs are over I have nearly 4/5 periods or 2-3 hours of free time in which everyone is on their phones.) I'm responding to this this late because I was busy with school and am now on my way home. But still, thank you for your concern.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 14:52

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto (Post 1590941)
Snip

This is slightly irrelevant but I figured I would tell everyone a bit about the students of F4.

We have 6 Deans List Finalists students. 2 of our students were on Einstein this year (and both were interviewed).

We have people from #teamifi teams and people from The United States, Canada, and Australia.

We have team leaders from teams that have won District championships and even a person who was the operator on your winning alliance last year at worlds.

Are we the best no but I consider us pretty decent ;)

Hallry 02-06-2016 14:56

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590961)
This is slightly irrelevant but I figured I would tell everyone a bit about the students of F4.

We have 6 Deans List Finalists students. 2 of our students were on Einstein this year (and both were interviewed).

We have people from #teamifi teams and people from The United States, Canada, and Australia.

We have team leaders from teams that have won District championships and even a person who was the operator on your winning alliance last year at worlds.

Are we the best no but I consider us pretty decent ;)

Out of curiosity, this is out of how many students? And what are the requirements for students to join other than filling out this Google form?

asid61 02-06-2016 15:02

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590964)
Out of curiosity, this is out of how many students? And what are the requirements for students to join other than filling out this Google form?

There are about 60 students in F4. All submissions for membership are reviewed by the F4 Board before being let into the community.
The Board decides who and how to handle F4 Connect messages, so having people completely new (and therefore not well known to the board) to F4 handling F4 Connect messages should be very rare.

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 15:04

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590964)
Out of curiosity, this is out of how many students? And what are the requirements for students to join other than filling out this Google form?

There are 60. When it comes to applying there is a bit more then just filling out the form. To start we have only allowed one freshman on. We screen over the answers and usually allow the person in although we have had to remove a few people (2 including that freshman). We try to allow most people on but there are some people who are not allowed in. The board on the other hand is quite a bit more selective and involved voting from the other students. So if we stick to how it is now (The 6 people with access to the responses and 60 others we can delegate questions to) it will probably work out alright.

PayneTrain 02-06-2016 15:13

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590943)
I had a huge post written up, but deleted it because it would just further the argument.

Instead of flaming F4 Connect, please try to post constructive criticism or words for improvement.

You seem to operate under a definition of flaming that is magnitudes broader and more sensitive than most people on the internet use for it. Flaming involves making derisive or insulting remarks at one party that are tangential or irrelevant the topic at hand. There was a patch of irrelevant discussion w/r/t AIM, but I would be interested to see what you consider flaming. There has been hard criticism, sure, but this is a harshly critical bunch. Needlessly going on the defensive will not endear people to your cause.

Coincidentally, I am curious to see how this turns out. I don't think this is really such a bad idea in theory but the practice could leave much to be desired. Realistically, not involving a lot of experienced people help answer tough questions could prove be damaging but I respect your efforts. Chief is a scary place, in no thanks to some posts that I make (i think they are justifiable but still can be aggressive)

Let’s give the kids a chance to voice their concerns in some channel. Even if it has its flaws, I think CD is still the best channel but F4 can't be stopped to do what they want.

Juggling this program will become very challenging, I imagine. Even if you disagree to this idea, maybe making a report on this program available to CD after this summer and feel period would be a good faith move. Remove names and affiliations and post questions and answers (and relevant outcomes to them) after some time has passed.

Kudos to you kids on the effort, but please do the right thing when undertaking this.

ASD20 02-06-2016 15:55

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1590943)
Instead of flaming F4 Connect, please try to post constructive criticism or words for improvement.
:P

I feel like the area connect may want to shift towards and that Chief Delphi current does not serve as well is long-term/in-depth advice. Simpler questions with more of a 'correct' answer are pretty well covered already. Connect could be used as an extension of much of what already happens at competitions. Many students spend their time at competitions going around the pits offering advice and assistance to struggling teams. I know that I have spent a lot of time at competitions helping teams fix problems with their robots and even helping them plan future improvements.

I see Connect as a place less experienced students and teams could go as a place to be 'connected' to someone who is not necessarily an expert, but is reasonably proficient in their area of concern and can work with them long term as essentially a consultant (or a sort of mini-mentor).

An example: A team is looking to design a custom drive train for the first time. They are connected to someone who has worked on custom drive train design for their team for the last few years. Over the course of a few weeks, the team exchanges CAD files and other design ideas with the person, who provides some feedback and shares some of the lessons and tricks he has learned from his own prior experiences designing drive trains. Would the advice provided be perfect? No, and it shouldn't be expected to be. However, I would say it would be reasonable to assume that the final product would be better than without advice.

Ideally, you would be connect with someone geographically close to you, so you could interact in person and at competitions as well as just digitally. It does not necessarily have to be students, though I think that students would be able to provide reasonable quality assistance. Essentially, it could be a way for teams with less mentor-resources to receive some focused mentoring and for more experienced and passionate students to take what their mentors have taught them and pass it on by mentoring themselves.

Alan Anderson 02-06-2016 16:09

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590919)
Currently our group is students only and we want to keep it that way.

That sounds like "We don't want mentors."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky (Post 1590919)
Its not that mentors experience is not wanted it just happens to be that we are a student only community.

That sounds like "We don't not want mentors."

I'll wait for you to make up your mind before I decide what I think of this latest proposed Balkanization of the community.

asid61 02-06-2016 16:32

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 1590986)
That sounds like "We don't want mentors."



That sounds like "We don't not want mentors."

I'll wait for you to make up your mind before I decide what I think of this latest proposed Balkanization of the community.

If you combine the two quotes, you end up with:
"Currently our group is students only and we want to keep it that way. Its not that mentors experience is not wanted it just happens to be that we are a student only community."
That makes sense to me. Mentor experience is wanted in general, but not in F4. That doesn't mean that F4 wants to cut out mentors, it just means that it recognizes there are some things students may not want to talk about with their mentors, just as there are some things mentors do not want to talk about with students.

Hallry 02-06-2016 16:39

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ASD20 (Post 1590985)
An example: A team is looking to design a custom drive train for the first time. They are connected to someone who has worked on custom drive train design for their team for the last few years. Over the course of a few weeks, the team exchanges CAD files and other design ideas with the person, who provides some feedback and shares some of the lessons and tricks he has learned from his own prior experiences designing drive trains. Would the advice provided be perfect? No, and it shouldn't be expected to be. However, I would say it would be reasonable to assume that the final product would be better than without advice.

So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



Trust the mentors that have been posting on this thread. One thing that mentors will always have over high school students is that we've all been there. We get it. Some of us made good choices, others made bad choices, and we've seen where they have led us. We've made our mistakes and have learned from them, and are now giving our advice to help you. High school is an important time of your life when really you should just be focusing on you. The social aspect of high school is just as important as the school work side of it. You''ll have plenty of time to mentor others once you graduate. But for now, don't bite off more than you can chew. Do your homework, prepare for college, enjoy your time with your family. And don't forget to get outside and have some fun. There's so much more to life than FRC.

I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.

Pauline Tasci 02-06-2016 16:41

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590993)
Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



.

+1

Alyssa 02-06-2016 16:48

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590993)
So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



Trust the mentors that have been posting on this thread. One thing that mentors will always have over high school students is that we've all been there. We get it. Some of us made good choices, others made bad choices, and we've seen where they have led us. We've made our mistakes and have learned from them, and are now giving our advice to help you. High school is an important time of your life when really you should just be focusing on you. The social aspect of high school is just as important as the school work side of it. You''ll have plenty of time to mentor others once you graduate. But for now, don't bite off more than you can chew. Do your homework, prepare for college, enjoy your time with your family. And don't forget to get outside and have some fun. There's so much more to life than FRC.

I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.


So much yes.

frcguy 02-06-2016 16:53

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590993)
So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.



Trust the mentors that have been posting on this thread. One thing that mentors will always have over high school students is that we've all been there. We get it. Some of us made good choices, others made bad choices, and we've seen where they have led us. We've made our mistakes and have learned from them, and are now giving our advice to help you. High school is an important time of your life when really you should just be focusing on you. The social aspect of high school is just as important as the school work side of it. You''ll have plenty of time to mentor others once you graduate. But for now, don't bite off more than you can chew. Do your homework, prepare for college, enjoy your time with your family. And don't forget to get outside and have some fun. There's so much more to life than FRC.

I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.

+3

asid61 02-06-2016 16:54

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
These are good points about the pros and cons of "mini-mentors". Given the issues that might arise from this (the least of which being experience) I agree that maybe it's not the right fit for Connect, but we'll bring it up for discussion.
Please keep the ideas coming! :D

ASD20 02-06-2016 17:06

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hallry (Post 1590993)
1. So here's my worry about this. High school students are busy. My fear is that there will be students on teams needing a lot of help who put their trust in F4 Connect, and become connected with a "mini-mentor" student. Sure this might seem good at first and the student in need can get some help and advice, but what happens when there gets to be too much on the "mini-mentor"'s plate? Let's say it's the middle of his/her junior year. There are so many more important things that the "mini-mentor" should prioritize in life: school work, college/SAT/ACT/AP prep, their own FRC team, an actual job, other extracurriculars and sports, family life, and yeah, even socializing with friends. Once all of this piles up, either the "mini-mentor" doesn't have time to help the student and leaves them even worse off than they were before, or the "mini-mentor" prioritizes poorly and falls behind on their homework, job hours, or even getting out of the house to have some fun. Then it'll all fall down just like the fragile game this concept seems to be named after.

2. I like it the idea, really. It's a good concept on paper but I'm afraid the execution won't be as easy as it sounds. Leave the mentoring to the mentors.

1. I don't think it would really take up that much time, maybe a few hours total over the course of several weeks. It certainly would be no time compared to how much time most students spend working on their own robot. However, everyone manages their time differently, so while I think I would have been able to handle it, there are probably a lot of kids who could not handle it as well.

2. I completely agree that it would be hard and that is why I am merely suggesting it as opposed to doing it myself (and I won't be a student next year).

While the details and execution definitely need some refining, overall I think this is more of an under-served area of help than general technical questions and is one where people don't have to be experts to make a meaningful contribution to the community, making it an interesting and useful thing for students to do.

AdamHeard 02-06-2016 17:16

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson (Post 1590986)
That sounds like "We don't want mentors."



That sounds like "We don't not want mentors."

I'll wait for you to make up your mind before I decide what I think of this latest proposed Balkanization of the community.

I've seen this sentiment disappear in many as they become adults and are suddenly mentor age.

Sometimes students that aggressively push for student only just want to be the smartest guy in the room for ego reasons.

No idea if that's the case here or not.

asid61 02-06-2016 17:21

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1591005)
I've seen this sentiment disappear in many as they become adults and are suddenly mentor age.

Sometimes students that aggressively push for student only just want to be the smartest guy in the room for ego reasons.

No idea if that's the case here or not.

As much as possible we're trying to make sure we don't overstep our boundaries. I agree that it's definitely more of a problem in students than in adults and F4 tries to limit it's involvement in things that are beyond it.
There seems to be an agreement in F4 right now about making sure we're "conservative" with how we help people, by putting students in contact with mentors on CD or advising them on where they can receive more detailed help. I think that would aid in alleviating a lot of worries we've seen in this thread, thoughts?

Hitchhiker 42 02-06-2016 17:21

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1591005)
I've seen this sentiment disappear in many as they become adults and are suddenly mentor age.

Sometimes students that aggressively push for student only just want to be the smartest guy in the room for ego reasons.

No idea if that's the case here or not.

In our discussions, we have equal, level-headed discussions about various things. It is not a defined thing about someone being better than anyone else, but rather that we can all discuss the robots we love (and other things as well) with our peers.

piersklein 02-06-2016 17:25

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Firstly, I am not associated with F4 in any manner. Also, I intend none of the following as a direct attack on any poster.

That being said, I am disappointed by some of the responses in this thread. F4, from my understanding from previous posts and their web series, is a specifically student run group. Adult mentors do advise, but the group is intentionally student run.

As to respond to some points made in this thread:

It is not my impression that any member of F4 or the wider FRC community is attempting to usurp CD as the go to place for technical information. Further, I would expect those answering on Connect to reference CD or suggest it for more in depth discussion.

I remember what it was like to first post here on CD. I remember what it was like to get my first dots (they were red). Chief Delphi attempts to remain an open community but nonetheless it is difficult to post on when you are new and I still find it difficult to approach mentors who I know have vast experience for fear of appearing dumb or ignorant. In addition, we all know of threads that have gotten out of control and had to be locked, and seeing these threads only increases previously stated anxieties. Whether you judge it to be just, there are times when students only feel comfortable talking to other students.

Finally, any criticisms of students directly (not of F4 as a whole, but targeted towards specific students), comments suggesting negative aspects to an individual's decisions or actions, or comments suggesting that students are incompetent should be kept in a private message. No student will feel comfortable coming to a mentor for advice if the mentor tells them they are incompetent.

AdamHeard 02-06-2016 17:40

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by piersklein (Post 1591010)
No student will feel comfortable coming to a mentor for advice if the mentor tells them they are incompetent.

Not saying this is what's happening in the thread, moreso rambling in a tangential direction.

What if a student is incompetent? By definition, don't nearly all students start out as incompetent? Students should strive to reach the point of maturity where such feedback can be received without internalizing it as a direct attack. This is a hard part about growing up obviously, and takes time (certainly took me some time!).

JG1902 02-06-2016 17:56

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
I won't bother reading the entire argument, but I feel like the concept of "don't like it, don't use it" applies pretty well here.

Aidan Cox 02-06-2016 18:25

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Seems like a groovy idea. IIRC, things along the same lines have been proposed in the past.

I'm sure at times it could be easier to use F4 Connect rather than tunneling through the depths of Chief or starting a new thread. I wouldn't be surprised if people have avoided asking questions on Chief in the past out of worry that they'd start a classic CD mosh pit, like the one on this thread and many others before it; or that they'd get some sort of abrasive comment about how all they've done is rehashed a previously discussed topic of question (rather than getting legitimate answers) and should have looked harder before making the thread- both of which I have seen. Or maybe Connect could be easier and faster for a student who doesn't have time to or wish to spend time going on Chief to ask a question and to see if their question has been answer.

It's been established that it's not a novice group of students that are answering. Students can provide helpful and knowledgeable answers to other students. That said, I would be interested to know the percentage of correct answers to incorrect, as well as question-to-answer time length, because that's really what's important if you want to compare and contrast it heavily to Chief Delphi's resources.

When it comes to the safety of the students, I would like to see some of the more personal ways of contact taken off the list of ways to receive answers. Things like a CD PM or email are much more safe and professional medias than phone and texting.

Chief is and always will be the best place for FIRST info and discussions, but at the end of the day, F4 could be helpful too and made to work practically. To me, the only thing about Chief Delphi that it could threaten is the egos. It's still in beta and is still very new, I'd hate to see it get shot down so quickly.

JesseK 02-06-2016 18:26

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AdamHeard (Post 1591012)
What if a student is incompetent? By definition, don't nearly all students start out as incompetent? Students should strive to reach the point of maturity where such feedback can be received without internalizing it as a direct attack. This is a hard part about growing up obviously, and takes time (certainly took me some time!).

Four years from now our robot kids will realize that four years ago they didn't know Jack, and that plenty of mentors were trying to help them realize it.

Four years is double the lifecycle of a lot of technical knowledge, particularly with bleeding-edge programming.

(not related to F4 or this initiative, of which I too am curious to see the results)

Steven Smith 02-06-2016 18:27

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
To the OP:

So in this thread, as is typical on CD (as you know), you have a combination of prudent advice, snarky comments, and a bit of sensationalism. Technical topics tend to draw out less of it. Topics where there are stronger differences of opinion, or an "us vs. them" feel can draw out stronger responses. I do feel (though could understand if a newer member doesn't) an underlying respect for each other within the CD community, so I am able to overlook some of the negative and come away with a net positive.

I agree that it can be a deterrent and intimidating to students. I think I understand what you are attempting to achieve with the F4 Connect. I can see an independent forum with a dedicated group of students that are sensitive to how student questions are answered as providing some positive outcomes.

I won't go through and echo every comment, but the ones regarding privacy and duty to report are worth heeding though, and a "disclaimer" does not absolve you of everything legally. Even if it did, if the net effect of the poor advice or privacy breach was a student being left in a dangerous situation or making a poor decision, the damage is still done. Mentoring is a skill in and of itself, and we all learned by observing and working with other mentors, bouncing ideas off "more senior" mentors when our knowledge falls short. I would encourage you to continue to do the same.

Regardless of your experience starting the F4 Connect community, I would always encourage people to first look at building up an existing platform before attempting to create something new from scratch. Whether intentional or not, every attempt to improve an existing platform by creating a new invariably fragments a user base more. Chief Delphi is likely not going anywhere soon. If you want to improve the dialogue in a shared mentor/student forum, you can do so by preempting posts with well worded answers to that new member that doesn't search before posting. I personally believe a better solution to the problem (which again, I agree exists) is for students like yourself to encourage students to join CD, and to do your best to provide feedback, even when there is a chance someone may disagree with it.

Either way, best of luck. Maybe as you suggest, you can use it as a way to drive students to existing resources, or to help coach them as they join the larger FIRST community and CD.

asid61 02-06-2016 18:55

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Aidan Cox (Post 1591019)
It's been established that it's not a novice group of students that are answering. Students can provide helpful and knowledgeable answers to other students. That said, I would be interested to know the percentage of correct answers to incorrect, as well as question-to-answer time length, because that's really what's important if you want to compare and contrast it heavily to Chief Delphi's resources.

When it comes to the safety of the students, I would like to see some of the more personal ways of contact taken off the list of ways to receive answers. Things like a CD PM or email are much more safe and professional medias than phone and texting.

Thank you, we'll look into getting some absolute statistics. We're thinking of also having a segment at the beginning each regular F4 show that has some of the questions and answers on it (with permission, of course) so that others can hear about them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Smith (Post 1591021)
To the OP:

I won't go through and echo every comment, but the ones regarding privacy and duty to report are worth heeding though, and a "disclaimer" does not absolve you of everything legally. Even if it did, if the net effect of the poor advice or privacy breach was a student being left in a dangerous situation or making a poor decision, the damage is still done. Mentoring is a skill in and of itself, and we all learned by observing and working with other mentors, bouncing ideas off "more senior" mentors when our knowledge falls short. I would encourage you to continue to do the same.

Regardless of your experience starting the F4 Connect community, I would always encourage people to first look at building up an existing platform before attempting to create something new from scratch. Whether intentional or not, every attempt to improve an existing platform by creating a new invariably fragments a user base more. Chief Delphi is likely not going anywhere soon. If you want to improve the dialogue in a shared mentor/student forum, you can do so by preempting posts with well worded answers to that new member that doesn't search before posting. I personally believe a better solution to the problem (which again, I agree exists) is for students like yourself to encourage students to join CD, and to do your best to provide feedback, even when there is a chance someone may disagree with it.

Either way, best of luck. Maybe as you suggest, you can use it as a way to drive students to existing resources, or to help coach them as they join the larger FIRST community and CD.

Thank you. As I posted earlier, we're trying to be very conservative with F4 Connect. Posting on Chief, contacting Senior Mentors, contacting regular mentors who know what they're doing are on our list of places to direct students, either in companion to or as a replacement to talking to a student.
I think we can all agree CD is a scary place sometimes. Connect can also serve as a place to help students join the community and overlook the occasional anger/rants here.

Dave McLaughlin 02-06-2016 19:06

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1591031)
Thank you. As I posted earlier, we're trying to be very conservative with F4 Connect. Posting on Chief, contacting Senior Mentors, contacting regular mentors who know what they're doing are on our list of places to direct students, either in companion to or as a replacement to talking to a student.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OvQIGDg4I

asid61 02-06-2016 19:11

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin (Post 1591032)

Thanks for your question. :)
As others have posted before, many students don't have the heart to post on CD or know who to best contact directly. A student on a team that doesn't have a lot of contact with the outside FIRST world wouldn't know things that we take for granted, like knowing that Senior Mentors exist, who Karthik and Libby K are, or even that CD exists. In all fairness, we don't have much of a way to solve that last one (although we are working on it) but for many it's easier to reach out to a student than to an adult directly.

PayneTrain 02-06-2016 19:19

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1591036)
Thanks for your question. :)
As others have posted before, many students don't have the heart to post on CD or know who to best contact directly. A student on a team that doesn't have a lot of contact with the outside FIRST world wouldn't know things that we take for granted, like knowing that Senior Mentors exist, who Karthik and Libby K are, or even that CD exists. In all fairness, we don't have much of a way to solve that last one (although we are working on it) but for many it's easier to reach out to a student than to an adult directly.

Then why not create a platform that uplifts existing sources of information instead of creating one that fractures it? How do you expect that perceived problem to be solved?

Also since you haven't responded to my previous inquiry yet, would you consider what I just said to be "flaming"?

asid61 02-06-2016 19:25

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PayneTrain (Post 1591037)
Then why not create a platform that uplifts existing sources of information instead if creating one that fractures it? How do you expect that perceived problem to be solved?

Also since you haven't responded to my previous inquiry yet, would you consider what I just said to be "flaming"?

I thought I explained in my previous post; F4 Connect will also put people in contact with resources other than students. I'm not sure how that's fracturing, maybe you could elaborate?

I consider "flaming" to be any post or part of a post that does not add to the thread and is derogatory. There have been "flaming" posts, both mild and harsh, in this thread. I've PM'd you to avoid derailing.

Dave McLaughlin 02-06-2016 19:28

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1591036)
Thanks for your question. :)
As others have posted before, many students don't have the heart to post on CD or know who to best contact directly. A student on a team that doesn't have a lot of contact with the outside FIRST world wouldn't know things that we take for granted, like knowing that Senior Mentors exist, who Karthik and Libby K are, or even that CD exists. In all fairness, we don't have much of a way to solve that last one (although we are working on it) but for many it's easier to reach out to a student than to an adult directly.

The stated methodology for achieving the vision and mission of FRC is to "Engage kids in kindergarten through high school in exciting, Mentor-based, research and robotics programs that help them become science and technology leaders, as well as well-rounded contributors to society."

I'm all for the empowerment and involvement of students. However, learning how to ask mentors for help is important.

Why does your organization think that creating this mode of support is greater value added to the community than attempting to make Chief Delphi more accessible to students?

asid61 02-06-2016 19:33

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin (Post 1591043)
The stated methodology for achieving the vision and mission of FRC is to "Engage kids in kindergarten through high school in exciting, Mentor-based, research and robotics programs that help them become science and technology leaders, as well as well-rounded contributors to society."

I'm all for the empowerment and involvement of students. However, learning how to ask mentors for help is important.

Why does your organization think that creating this mode of support is greater value added to the community than attempting to make Chief Delphi more accessible to students?

I agree that learning to ask for help from people you don't know is important, which is why if a student is put in contact with one through Connect they might grow to be more ok with asking outside their regular "circles" in the future. I think of F4 Connect as a possible step to take on the way to becoming more well-rounded.

Making Chief Delphi more accessible to students is a vastly more difficult task than streamlining how they get in; if it was that easy, how come not every team has a CD account? Many people are put off by the amount of hostility they see here sometimes and choose not to make an account or contact people for that reason. Connect serves as a more relateable place for students to get help and start getting used to the FRC community at large.
I believe we are making CD more accessible through this, only not in a direct way.

Dave McLaughlin 02-06-2016 19:45

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by asid61 (Post 1591046)
Making Chief Delphi more accessible to students is a vastly more difficult task than streamlining how they get in...

Why?

Sperkowsky 02-06-2016 19:51

Re: F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave McLaughlin (Post 1591051)
Why?

It's the cultural equivalent of eliminating bullying in every school across America. No matter how hard we try it's probably going to be more or less the same.


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